Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

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Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:46 pm UTC

ABC News wrote:
President Obama today certified a repeal of the “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” ban on gays serving openly in the military, a law which he said “undermines our military readiness and violates American principles of fairness and equality.”

...

“As of September 20th, service members will no longer be forced to hide who they are in order to serve our country,” said Obama, who initially signed legislation to repeal the law in December.


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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby DSenette » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:47 pm UTC

woohoo
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

And there was much rejoicing.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Box Boy » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:07 pm UTC

Shitstorm of bigots coming in at:
3.....
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Elvish Pillager » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:09 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:“As of September 20th, service members will no longer be forced to hide who they are in order to serve our country,” said Obama

Unless they're trans.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:21 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:“As of September 20th, service members will no longer be forced to hide who they are in order to serve our country,” said Obama

Unless they're trans.

"Soon we will have a military where openly homosexual officers can punish and dishonorably discharge trans prople for being themselves." - @metalmujer


Er...

is that actually true or am I missing a joke?
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby natraj » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:22 pm UTC

No, that's true, the law changes only apply to cis GLB people. Trans ones are still not allowed to serve.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:25 pm UTC

I think the "dishonorable" part is wrong. But it's still illustrative of the military's policy towards trans folk being screwed up.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:30 pm UTC

natraj wrote:No, that's true, the law changes only apply to cis GLB people. Trans ones are still not allowed to serve.


Seriously? My god, that's idiotic. Why didn't they stuff that in with this bill? Surely, support for gay rights and transgender rights is about the same?
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Роберт » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:32 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
natraj wrote:No, that's true, the law changes only apply to cis GLB people. Trans ones are still not allowed to serve.


Seriously? My god, that's idiotic. Why didn't they stuff that in with this bill? Surely, support for gay rights and transgender rights is about the same?

Unfortunately, no. The T in LBGT gets more bigotry etc than the other letters. At least it typically gets a letter, but...
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:38 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
natraj wrote:No, that's true, the law changes only apply to cis GLB people. Trans ones are still not allowed to serve.


Seriously? My god, that's idiotic. Why didn't they stuff that in with this bill? Surely, support for gay rights and transgender rights is about the same?

Unfortunately, no. The T in LBGT gets more bigotry etc than the other letters. At least it typically gets a letter, but...

On a tangential note, that acronym is getting out of hand. I've seen "LBGTQIIQ" somewhere, and I have no idea what half of those letters stand for. Can we invent some cover-all term, like 'unconventional sexuality' or something?
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Shivahn » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:46 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Роберт wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
natraj wrote:No, that's true, the law changes only apply to cis GLB people. Trans ones are still not allowed to serve.


Seriously? My god, that's idiotic. Why didn't they stuff that in with this bill? Surely, support for gay rights and transgender rights is about the same?

Unfortunately, no. The T in LBGT gets more bigotry etc than the other letters. At least it typically gets a letter, but...

On a tangential note, that acronym is getting out of hand. I've seen "LBGTQIIQ" somewhere, and I have no idea what half of those letters stand for. Can we invent some cover-all term, like 'unconventional sexuality' or something?

That wouldn't cover all, and unfortunately the closest cover-alls (like queer, which is more or less all inclusive, to the best of my knowledge) are also slurs. Fun times!

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:49 pm UTC

I'm not going to ask what it doesn't cover because I'm sure I don't want to know. But I maintain that the initialism is growing too large.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Shivahn » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:03 pm UTC

(It's the T. And the I.)

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Vaniver » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:09 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:On a tangential note, that acronym is getting out of hand. I've seen "LBGTQIIQ" somewhere, and I have no idea what half of those letters stand for. Can we invent some cover-all term, like 'unconventional sexuality' or something?
The problem with lumping all of them together without recognizing them individually is that pretty much the only thing they have in common is "not cis-gendered heterosexual" and many prefer a positive definition to a negative one. Something like "unconventional" makes the claim that heterosexuality is conventional, which people might want to contest.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Elvish Pillager » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:10 pm UTC

I've seen an acronym that expands to something like "gender and/or sexuality non-conforming" instead of listing a ton of categories, but I can't remember it. Can anyone else?
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Radical_Initiator » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:I've seen an acronym that expands to something like "gender and/or sexuality non-conforming" instead of listing a ton of categories, but I can't remember it. Can anyone else?


Wikipedia mentions a mostly unused "MSGI" for "minority sexual and gender identities", but I'm not sure people appreciate the "minority" part.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:19 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:I've seen an acronym that expands to something like "gender and/or sexuality non-conforming" instead of listing a ton of categories, but I can't remember it. Can anyone else?

Some people at Creating Change were distributing pins that said SO+GI on them, but I don't know if it will catch on.

Edit: And that acronym is of course less about describing a group than about describing an axis along which discrimination should be removed.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Aaeriele » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:20 pm UTC

What it comes down to is that no one wants to be defined as "the other".
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Jahoclave » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:23 pm UTC

So, what are we going to get hit by, hurricane, fire, earthquake? Or is God going to take out a complete other country for this? I suppose it'll be hurricanes--that season is coming up next, right?

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby natraj » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:26 pm UTC

We are already in the middle of hurricane season. Probably because of the gays.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby podbaydoor » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:30 pm UTC

No guys, it's obviously the droughts in the SW United States and in Somalia. Gays have special rain-proof powers.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:38 pm UTC

Also the heat wave.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby The EGE » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:40 am UTC

Well, hell froze over. The heat pumps had to exhaust somewhere.

Then again, it could just be the residual hot air from Congress.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby LtNOWIS » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:04 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
natraj wrote:No, that's true, the law changes only apply to cis GLB people. Trans ones are still not allowed to serve.


Seriously? My god, that's idiotic. Why didn't they stuff that in with this bill? Surely, support for gay rights and transgender rights is about the same?

The military has different physical fitness standards for men and women. Transgender and Intersex people would mess up the scales. And having a unified scale would either force out a lot of high-speed females, or allow too many weak men to serve.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Gelsamel » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:10 am UTC

LtNOWIS, how would a unified scale work such that that would be true?
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:36 am UTC

LtNOWIS wrote:And having a unified scale would either force out a lot of high-speed females, or allow too many weak men to serve.

You're turning quite a tight circle, here. Those too-weak men are only too weak so long as they're under a different, artificial standard. Set one minimum, corresponding to the minimum fitness required to perform at military standards (which seems like the sensible thing to do if you're concerned with efficiency rather than gender ideology), and they're not too weak at all.

And never mind that physical fitness has fuck-all to do with the actual rationale excluding trans people from the military.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby natraj » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:39 am UTC

LtNOWIS wrote:The military has different physical fitness standards for men and women. Transgender and Intersex people would mess up the scales. And having a unified scale would either force out a lot of high-speed females, or allow too many weak men to serve.


Even with the scales different for men and women I don't see how trans people serving would mess up the scales. There are other countries who allow trans people to serve in their militaries. Trans men would have to perform at the same standards as any other men, and trans women would have to perform at the same standards as any other women. I remember reading about a trans man and his preparations for military service in another country, and it just meant that he had to train hard to meet the standards.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Vash » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:07 am UTC

Hooray!

Edit: material on the OT tangent.
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Also, there are seven genders, maybe. It makes a lot of sense when you consider variations in identity and body. I don't know how close biological sex is to gender, but I think that most likely neither are two. It also makes sense to me that there is some relation between multiple sexes and multiple genders.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Some people at Creating Change were distributing pins that said SO+GI on them, but I don't know if it will catch on.

Edit: And that acronym is of course less about describing a group than about describing an axis along which discrimination should be removed.


SO+GI has no ring to it. It won't catch on. People will also call it "soggy," or "soh-gee" like "yogi." It's either an insult, or not populist. LGBT can't be transmogrified into such a grotesquely unappealing form. SO+GI is conceptually incomplete, as well (I was going to say it was perfect, but I realized that wasn't true). What if people physically have a different sex than male or female (hermaphrodites, for example)? I would say this is sometimes a basis for discrimination.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby mmmcannibalism » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:22 am UTC

Yay

On the tangent; I'm not very familiar with how this has changed but the military used to limit what roles women could serve in. So in that context it makes sense that you would have different physical standards for men and women.
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby pilotofdoom » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:21 am UTC

natraj wrote:No, that's true, the law changes only apply to cis GLB people. Trans ones are still not allowed to serve.


Where did you see that, besides a quote from twitter?

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Think about what you just wrote. Sounds like you're intolerent of those that have the opposing viewpoint. Unless I'm reading that wrong.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby LtNOWIS » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:36 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:Yay

On the tangent; I'm not very familiar with how this has changed but the military used to limit what roles women could serve in. So in that context it makes sense that you would have different physical standards for men and women.

That's still the case. Women are mostly barred from combat branches in the US military. It's something of a hot-button issue.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
LtNOWIS wrote:And having a unified scale would either force out a lot of high-speed females, or allow too many weak men to serve.

You're turning quite a tight circle, here. Those too-weak men are only too weak so long as they're under a different, artificial standard. Set one minimum, corresponding to the minimum fitness required to perform at military standards (which seems like the sensible thing to do if you're concerned with efficiency rather than gender ideology), and they're not too weak at all.

And never mind that physical fitness has fuck-all to do with the actual rationale excluding trans people from the military.

It's not just about minimum ability to do the job. Physical fitness also points to self-discipline and motivation. A male who can't do the minimum number of push-ups would have no physical problem in various administrative roles, but the fact that he's unwilling to put in the effort to meet a fairly easy standard shows a lack of character and warrior ethos. Females tend to have less upper body strength than males, so the "barely passing" standard for men signifies a pretty excellent effort by a female, in terms of push-ups. For sit-ups, that's not the case, so the scale is the same for both genders, at least in the army.

And I'm pretty sure a big part of the rationale for excluding trans people from the military is the perception that it would be a huge legal, regulatory, and logistical mess to change the status quo.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Jahoclave » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:47 am UTC

LtNOWIS wrote:
And I'm pretty sure a big part of the rationale for excluding trans people from the military is the perception that it would be a huge legal, regulatory, and logistical mess to change the status quo.

Boo fucking hoo. You know we used the logic of it being hard as a reason to go to the Moon? Are we now saying we can't have people in the military because it'll hurt somebody's feeling that they're going to have to do some work? The biggest reason is, for some reason, we still seem to think that bigots are worth listening to.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby LtNOWIS » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:12 am UTC

I'm not saying it's a valid, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of the arguments goes along the lines of the military being literally unable to afford to spend the man-hours writing, disseminating, and implementing new regulations.

In actuality, transsexuals in the military hasn't been something most policymakers have even thought about, because the homosexual issue has dominated the debate for the last two decades or so.

Incidentally, bigots have the same right to vote in as non-bigots.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Jahoclave » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:31 am UTC

Yeah, but they don't have the right to be taken seriously, which is unfortunately something a vast majority of this public still does.

Yeah, affordability, I don't think throwing money at the military has ever been a problem. Apparently congressional Republicans hate our troops so much that they won't even allow them to have the needed regulations to allow them to serve. I can't believe they hate our troops that much.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Lucrece » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:18 am UTC

The T part reveals why ENDA had greater trouble than DADT despite job discrimination being nearly as unpopular.

When Jacksonville, FL had the option of a gay mayor , opposition and the same guy that became nationally known for Quran-burning used the ploy of "men in women's bathroom".

Basically, T people are being held back by being depicted as predators ala gays with children. T's are deemed male transvestites with Peeping Tom complex (and obviously female to male T's don't exist), while gays are stuck with the "men seeking to molest children into their brigade".

T's also compose a significantly smaller contingent of the population than gays and lesbians and bisexuals, so they tend to have less political pull. It's an element in the discussion of why leaving out T's for the sake of legislative expediency would be unconscionable -- if we kick them out, they've got a snowball's chance in hell of accomplishing anything legislatively/culturally/politically on their own outside of court rulings.

Insisting on keeping the T might delay ENDA by some years -- leaving them out pretty much ensures that gender identity protection is not touched in decades. This is sadly what I predict will happen with transgender veteran unless a court ruling shakes things up. People are going to say the matter with discrimination in the military has been dealt with, and no political capital will be spent in a long time to correct further inequalities.

Autumn Sandeen is a wonderful read for these issues. I would also recommend Zoe Brain for anyone interested in further reading material on trans/intersex issues (Autumn slants more toward narrative, and Zoe focuses more on the growing science behind gender identity, each good for the soul and mind respectively).
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby GhostWolfe » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:54 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
LtNOWIS wrote:And I'm pretty sure a big part of the rationale for excluding trans people from the military is the perception that it would be a huge legal, regulatory, and logistical mess to change the status quo.
Boo fucking hoo. You know we used the logic of it being hard as a reason to go to the Moon? Are we now saying we can't have people in the military because it'll hurt somebody's feeling that they're going to have to do some work?
Way to over-simply the situation. There is a unit (admin, not combative) near when I live that has a FtM member. He is pre-op, but living as a man. Just one of the problems faced by his commanding officer is bathroom facilities: he doesn't want to use the mens facilities, but cannot use the females bathrooms.

Obviously it's not impossible for trans people to serve, but we're a long way from integration.

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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby Vellyr » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:49 am UTC

Wikipedia mentions a mostly unused "MSGI" for "minority sexual and gender identities", but I'm not sure people appreciate the "minority" part.


I think we need to stop beating around the bush here. cis-hetero is the majority, and will be for the forseeable future until we achieve transhumanism ala The Culture or something. Not better, but yes, more numerous and yes, "standard" or "default" from a purely biological standpoint. If we were to enumerate every alternative sexuality (or lifestyle? Since apparently the word "sexuality" is no longer even fit to encompass the concept) things would get ridiculous, and I can only assume that the number is constantly changing anyway since it's the human mind we're talking about. At some point it stops being about rights, and becomes some kind of ego trip about that persons own special kind of "differentness", which only hinders acceptance from others.

I think the biggest reason Ts are left out is precisely because they haven't gained mainstream acceptance yet. I would say at this point people are comfortable enough with LGBs that, excluding some bigots, they can integrate smoothly into most any workplace (disclaimer: I am not gay, but I think this is a pretty fair statement for my generation, which comprises the majority of the military).

Ts on the other hand make a lot more people uncomfortable, including me. One reason is because they are so few in number, and are little-understood. Another reason is that their fight for rights hasn't been in the public light as long as the GLBs' has. The last reason is because of the physical aspect that isn't present with GLBs. Until Ts become more socially accepted, attempting to integrate them into the military would likely cause more problems from a human relations standpoint than it would be worth. The military is primarily for protecting our country, not making human rights statements, as cold as that may sound.

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TheGrammarBolshevik
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:34 pm UTC

LtNOWIS wrote:It's not just about minimum ability to do the job. Physical fitness also points to self-discipline and motivation.

So find another way to measure those things. There are plenty of jobs that require self-discipline and motivation, and pretty much none of them require you to do push-ups to prove it.

LtNOWIS wrote:And I'm pretty sure a big part of the rationale for excluding trans people from the military is the perception that it would be a huge legal, regulatory, and logistical mess to change the status quo.

I'll see your "Well I'm pretty sure!" and raise you a citation. The disqualification for transgender people is listed among personality disorders and paraphilias, which I'm fairly sure do not affect one's ability to do push-ups.

And the fact that other militaries have integrated transgender people belies such perceptions. Not only do we know that integration is possible, but there are models from other countries to show how it can be done. Would there be some hurdles? Of course. But hardly hurdles that rise to the level of "huge legal, regulatory, and logistical mess."
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pilotofdoom
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Re: Obama has repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Postby pilotofdoom » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:58 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik, why should transgendered be allowed in the US military?

EDIT: Actually the question can go for anyone, I just saw TheGrammarBolshevik bring up the medical reason for disqualifying transgendered from the US military.


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