Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Aaeriele » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:46 am UTC

adho wrote:Hey, did you guys hear? Amy Winehouse died!

Crazy story, that.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Weeks » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:48 am UTC

adho wrote:Hey, did you guys hear? Amy Winehouse died!
WHAAT?!?!
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Felstaff » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:57 am UTC

Indeed, let us discuss this current event

For the chromatically challenged, that was the big red mod pen saying this thread has become far too ridiculously detached from the initial subject matter.

Discussing "deserving" and "justification" on the nature of human sympathy is pointless, inane, and YOU GUYS ARE ALL DICKS. Er, ahem, I mean attempting to apply a logical framework to what is essentially an irrational phenomenon (addiction, sympathy) is fruitless and ends up in circular arguments where everyone--and I mean everyone--looks like a complete and utter prick. So no more, thankyouverymuch.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:00 am UTC

D'oh, right after I had just completed writing a long rebuttal! A'ight.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Felstaff » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:00 am UTC

You have my sympathies.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:27 am UTC

Felstaff wrote:You have my sympathies.

:)

Anyways, I have school in a few hours, so I should go to bed three hours ago. Good night, sleep well, I'll most likely kill infuriate you in the morning.

Whoa, that was two princess bride references in one page. Not bad.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby DSenette » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:47 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Education is hardly a necessary activity. Does "necessary" actually mean necessary, or are you just using sympathy as a carrot to get people to do whatever you'd prefer them to do?

Education is legally mandatory in the united states, so unless you're using the strictest possible definition of necessity, then it is. Even higher education is arguably necessary, seeing as one's career choices are so severely limited without it that the quality of life would be significantly reduced.

Remember what I said before though: the impact of what you're using the car for has to matter as well. Basically, you can't just isolate a specific thing and say "well, staying home is safer than driving, so I'll stay home" because that's still an illogical decision. You have to take into account everything. Really though, I should have to sit here and explain basic decision making just to entertain you: I am admittedly not going to include every single obvious component of thinking that goes into a decision. Risk assessment is one, but I think it goes without saying that risks have to be weighed against the downfalls and benefits of alternatives. If something is riskier than another thing, it doesn't necessarily mean that it just has more potential for risk, it also implies that benefit is being taken into account. For example, if I flip a coin, I can either decide to lose $0 if heads comes up and win $0 if tails comes up, or I can choose to win $1,000,000,000 if heads comes up and lose $.01 if tails comes up, then technically the latter option has more risk, but it's still really the less risky option as the expected reward is way, way, way higher.

i REALLY REALLY have to call you on this because you're bat shit crazy.

education is NOT LEGALLY MANDATORY ANYWHERE, sending your kids to school is legally mandatory, them being educated when they get there isn't. the teachers at the school might be presenting knowledge but that does NOT mean that the kids are required to learn. so yeah, that's wrong.

your whole concept is ridiculous. sympathy isn't the same thing as acceptance, you can sympathize/empathize with someone without accepting their actions. i sympathize with people who are on death row and are repentant of their crimes in the face of death, i don't then accept that their crimes were a good choice for them.

for the car/motorcycle argument, as a motorcycle rider, that's stupid. and shows that you have a lack of understanding of things that people do. your statement basically says that anyone who does anything with even the slightest risk deserves to have that risk come true. so i would imagine that you don't feel sympathy for people who get paper cuts that work in document filing facilities, they should have known better than to take that job since there's a risk for paper cuts and all
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby bentheimmigrant » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:07 pm UTC

There... there was a new page.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby DSenette » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:12 pm UTC

mah bad yalls.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby TheCaptain » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:51 pm UTC

From the department of Quertial Aphasia:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/2 ... 10130.html

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:11 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Education is hardly a necessary activity. Does "necessary" actually mean necessary, or are you just using sympathy as a carrot to get people to do whatever you'd prefer them to do?

Education is legally mandatory in the united states, so unless you're using the strictest possible definition of necessity, then it is. Even higher education is arguably necessary, seeing as one's career choices are so severely limited without it that the quality of life would be significantly reduced.

Remember what I said before though: the impact of what you're using the car for has to matter as well. Basically, you can't just isolate a specific thing and say "well, staying home is safer than driving, so I'll stay home" because that's still an illogical decision. You have to take into account everything. Really though, I should have to sit here and explain basic decision making just to entertain you: I am admittedly not going to include every single obvious component of thinking that goes into a decision. Risk assessment is one, but I think it goes without saying that risks have to be weighed against the downfalls and benefits of alternatives. If something is riskier than another thing, it doesn't necessarily mean that it just has more potential for risk, it also implies that benefit is being taken into account. For example, if I flip a coin, I can either decide to lose $0 if heads comes up and win $0 if tails comes up, or I can choose to win $1,000,000,000 if heads comes up and lose $.01 if tails comes up, then technically the latter option has more risk, but it's still really the less risky option as the expected reward is way, way, way higher.

i REALLY REALLY have to call you on this because you're bat shit crazy.

education is NOT LEGALLY MANDATORY ANYWHERE, sending your kids to school is legally mandatory, them being educated when they get there isn't. the teachers at the school might be presenting knowledge but that does NOT mean that the kids are required to learn. so yeah, that's wrong.

your whole concept is ridiculous. sympathy isn't the same thing as acceptance, you can sympathize/empathize with someone without accepting their actions. i sympathize with people who are on death row and are repentant of their crimes in the face of death, i don't then accept that their crimes were a good choice for them.

for the car/motorcycle argument, as a motorcycle rider, that's stupid. and shows that you have a lack of understanding of things that people do. your statement basically says that anyone who does anything with even the slightest risk deserves to have that risk come true. so i would imagine that you don't feel sympathy for people who get paper cuts that work in document filing facilities, they should have known better than to take that job since there's a risk for paper cuts and all


I'm not going to rebut this post for two reasons: first, the mod said we needed to stop. Second, you're arguing with viewpoints I don't hold and assuming things I've never said. So please relax, and if you want, reread my posts so that you understand my viewpoints before ranting on about how crazy I am.
Last edited by sourmìlk on Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:14 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby TheCaptain » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:14 pm UTC

Things you could have done in a PM: that.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:15 pm UTC

TheCaptain wrote:Things you could have done in a PM: that.

Good point. I often forget that feature exists.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Jahoclave » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:10 pm UTC

TheCaptain wrote:Things you could have done in a PM: that.

Hey! That's my job! Now I have to deputize you! *hands shiny badge*

For some reason, I also always pronounce that W with a german pronunciation.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Jesse » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:38 am UTC

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/08/winehouse-young-female-press

Laurie Penny wrote:Winehouse was never interested in the normal rules of female celebrity.

We live in a hard, spiteful world that gorges on gossip and outrage and tramples on talent. As the tributes pour in for Amy Winehouse, who died on 23 July at the age of 27, we should remember that throughout her short career, the young singer was bullied by the press for the same vulnerability that made her music so powerful.

Winehouse was always more than an amazing voice. Her songs are as remarkable for their emotional authenticity as they are for the raw, precocious power of her singing. Her breakthrough album, Back to Black, is one of the great records of the early 21st century, and it is sublime precisely because it is about suffering: the ugly intimacies of addiction, the untidy angst of being young and lovesick and desperately unhappy, distilled into something rich, bitter and fine.

In a music industry that seems set on a trajectory of icy, impenetrable perfection, of inoffensive singer-songwriters with cookie-cutter good looks making coffee-table records for the curtain-twitchers of Middle England, Winehouse wore her flaws as brazenly as her 13 tattoos. And she was hounded for it to the point of breakdown.

The gossip press loves nothing better than to watch a young woman fall to pieces. The tabloids scented blood long before Winehouse appeared in public with flecks of it spattered on her ballet pumps, and began to hunt her through the streets of London and New York. Her song lyrics were quoted back at her in endless dissections of her obvious distress, mocking her refusal to "go to rehab" when she eventually did just that. In 2009, she had to take out a court order to stop press photographers from camping outside her house.

With the ethics of the tabloid press under scrutiny, it is worth asking why hacks felt the need, as the science writer Martin Robbins observed, "to pursue so aggressively and mercilessly a talented, but vulnerable, young woman". The day before the Sunday Mirror broke the news of her death, its sister paper sneered about Winehouse's appearance at a gig "like the embarrassing auntie you don't want at a family reunion". The same papers that gloated over Winehouse's deteriorating health and published grisly pictures of the car crash that was her personal life now carry solemn tributes to her achievements. The same papers that called Winehouse fat when she arrived as a fresh young talent in 2003, then gloated over her emaciated appearance as she succumbed to the pressures of fame, are saying how worried they always were about her weight.

A recurring motif of the many articles taunting Winehouse as her addictions lurched out of control was her failure to be “a good role model". Photographs of the "troubled singer" were regularly used to illustrate hand-wringing pieces about how young women everywhere were spiralling into a moral soup of loose-knickered, hard-drinking degeneracy.

Part of the joy of Winehouse as a pop phenomenon, however, was that she was never interested in the normal rules of female celebrity. When asked in 2007 why Amy Winehouse meant so much to me, I wrote that she was the only woman singer who you could never imagine releasing her own perfume - and if she did, you wouldn't want it near your pressure points any more than you'd dab yourself with Essence of Keith Richards.

It should not be the job of every female who achieves success through her own talents to be a model of ladylike good behaviour. Pete Doherty, whose substance misuse has likewise furnished the gossip papers with almost a decade of slobbering disapprobation, was never asked to be a role model. Young women need role models, but we also need artists and icons.

Winehouse was consistently iconic, from her trademark scruffy beehive and eyeliner to the raw soul of her voice. It is one of the many ways in which she never, ever let us down.

Much has been made of how her premature passing places her in the macabre coterie of musicians, from Morrison and Hendrix to Joplin and Cobain, who died suddenly at the age of 27. The superstition surrounding the so-called 27 Club is no more than a tasteless attempt to attach meaning and order to the senseless waste of young talent. Yet perhaps the association will allow Winehouse to be remembered not as a frail addict, but as the damn fine music star that she was.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Dream » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:33 pm UTC

I normally like Laurie Penny, but I find that piece hagiographic and fannish. Winehouse let a lot of people down, most obviously those who were disappointed by her live performances. There's no need to pretend she wasn't wayward and unreliable. She was very, very far from unique in not subscribing to media presumption about the nature of female celebrity, PJ Harvey and Beth Gibbons come to mind as super-famous women who don't give a fuck about what the papers expect of them, and I could think of many more. The casting of Winehouse as a bastion of individuality against the legions of conformist manufactured pop unfairly ignores the legions of recording artists throughout the UK who have nothing to do with celebrity or corporate pop, and whom Winehouse was more than talented enough to be one of had she chosen that direction. There's nothing wrong with making the kind of mainstream pop music Winehouse made, and she doesn't need misguided defending from Penny for her artistic decisions. It does an entirely unnecessary disservice to people who really do plough a different furrow to claim that Winehouse was among them. Anyone who thinks that Amy Winehouse was the only woman singer you wouldn't imagine releasing a branded perfume should, with respect, broaden their musical horizons.

Amy Winehouse was who she was, as an artist and as a person. There is no need to re-imagine her to canonise her memory, there was more than enough there the way she really was.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Jesse » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

What I took from the piece there was more knee-jerk anti-tabloid than super pro-Winehouse. That the same tabloids that admonished her for being fat were there to laugh when she was too thin and then turn around and 'pay tribute' to her now that she's dead. But yeah, I don't disagree with you on that at all.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Dream » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:05 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:That the same tabloids that admonished her for being fat were there to laugh when she was too thin and then turn around and 'pay tribute' to her now that she's dead. But yeah, I don't disagree with you on that at all.

Nor do I disagree with Laurie Penny on that note either. Fat, thin, tattoos, hair, drunkenness, anything they felt like slating her for was open season, until she died, then it was more profitable to be all about her music and soul and beauty. Fucking dickheads, all.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby tzvibish » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

so instead of mocking her for being an addict, we should be celebrating it?

Just because it happens to jive with the whole creative process doesn't mean it's something we should just accept as OK and move along.

He has a point that the hypocrisy is hypocritical, but that doesn't mean you just ignore it for the sake of art. her downfall was still an incredibly sad thing to watch.

Winehouse was consistently iconic, from her trademark scruffy beehive and eyeliner to the raw soul of her voice. It is one of the many ways in which she never, ever let us down.


She also had a a serious addiction to dangerous substances. Is that how she ever let us down, either?

And no, simply "remembering her for her talent" is outrageous. There's a reason why she is dead, and it's because she had an addiction. If you don't remember that, you've done an incredible disservice to all the battles she tried valiantly to win.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Aaeriele » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:52 pm UTC

tzvibish wrote:so instead of mocking her for being an addict, we should be celebrating it?


There are more options than "mocking or celebrating". For instance, you can consider something tragic without mocking it.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby meatyochre » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:04 pm UTC

cba to read 14 pages but I read first and last. Has anyone here gotten the memo that she may have died of Delirium Tremens while withdrawing because she quit drinking? Tox report isn't in yet, but it might not be as simple as an OD. DT would be much more tragic because she was trying to quit.

Either way, sucks to be her. And as I'm turning 27 in a month, I'll be glad when I turn 28 x_x
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby poxic » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:58 am UTC

I did catch that, yes. Alcohol withdrawal can kill you if it's not done carefully. Benzodiazepines (e.g. Valium) are usually prescribed to prevent death from DTs. This makes me wonder if she was under a doctor's care at the time, or if she was going cold turkey on her own.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby ShootTheChicken » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:13 pm UTC

According to what I'd read she'd been to her doctor earlier that night.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Jessica » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:33 pm UTC

Amy Winehouse: no "illegal drugs found" says family

Don't want to revive the topic (but I am still necroing it). Just thought this piece of news was important to share.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby Jessica » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:40 pm UTC

Amy Winehouse died with a BAC 5x the legal limit.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:15 pm UTC

Apparently in England that's also .08, meaning Winehouse had a BAC of .40

Holy crap that's a lot. Although I've heard anecdotes of people being conscious at .50, that's severe

Looking at Wikipedia, the effects of .40 to .50

wikpedia wrote:Behvioural Effects
-- General lack of behaviour
-- unconsciousness
-- death is possible

Impairment
-- breathing
-- heart rate


I find it mildly funny that wikipedia characterizes unconsciousness or death as "general lack of behaviour."
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby adho » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:20 pm UTC

Comes down to tolerance I suppose, from mosts report she drank an awful lot.
Sure, a BAC of 0.4 would floor/hospitalise most people, but if someone was getting plastered relatively often...

Time have an interesting view on it.

If she drank as much as they said (which is in honesty unlikely) she must have had it rough in that month or so.

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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:01 am UTC

She might've died because she got too much blood in her alcohol system.
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Re: Amy Winehouse joins the 27 Club

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:04 am UTC

cjmcjmcjmcjm wrote:She might've died because she got too much blood in her alcohol system.


ba-dum tsh!
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