Tottenham Riots

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Tottenham Riots

Postby M.C. » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:49 am UTC

http://www.theage.com.au/world/blazes-l ... 1ih6j.html

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Rioters went on the rampage in north London, torching police cars, a bus and a shop amid widespread looting following a protest over the fatal shooting of a man by armed officers.
The patrol cars and the double-decker bus were set ablaze on Saturday night as hundreds ran amok outside the police station on the High Road in Tottenham.
Under a hail of missiles, riot officers and mounted police battled to regain control of the streets as fire crews rushed to tackle the burning building.
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Riot grips London
One of London's iconic double decker buses burns in the rampage. Photo: AFP

















Rioters kicked in windows on the High Road as shops were looted, with people seen pushing away shopping trolleys full of stolen goods.
One police officer is in hospital and seven others were injured in the violence.
Central London has seen student and trade union protests turn ugly in recent months but this outbreak of rioting is the worst seen in years in the suburbs.
The unrest followed a march to the police station in Tottenham in protest over the shooting dead of a minicab passenger by police on Thursday in an apparent exchange of gunfire.
The 29-year-old, named locally as Mark Duggan, a father-of-four, died at the scene.
An officer may have had a lucky escape in the incident -- a police radio was found to have a bullet lodged in it.
Saturday night's disorder began with the torching of two patrol cars about 200 metres from the police station while their officers conducted traffic patrols on foot.
"A number of bottles were thrown at these two cars -- one was set alight and the second was pushed into the middle of the High Road. It was subsequently set alight," said a spokesman for London's Metropolitan Police.
"The officers were not in the vehicles and were unhurt."
Riot squad officers were been deployed to the north and south of the police station to disperse the crowd. Police vans screened off the High Road.
Local resident David Akinsanya told BBC television he was feeling "unsafe".
"It's really bad," he said. "It looks like it's going to get very tasty... there seems to be a lot of anger in Tottenham tonight."
Tottenham is an ethnically-diverse urban area best known for its English Premier League football club Tottenham Hotspur.
Saturday's unrest occurred following a protest march to the police station from Broadwater Farm, a 1960s public housing estate in Tottenham.
Broadwater Farm is widely known in Britain following the 1985 killing of Police Constable Keith Blakelock, who was hacked to death during a riot there.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), which investigates all police shootings -- regular British police officers do not carry guns -- said that specialist firearms officers stopped a minicab on Thursday to carry out a pre-planned arrest.
They were accompanied by officers from Trident, the unit which deals specifically with gun crime in the black community.
"Shots were fired and a 29-year-old man, who was a passenger in the cab, died at the scene," the IPCC said.
"It is believed that two shots were fired by a firearms officer, equipped with a Heckler and Koch MP5 carbine. A non-police issue handgun was recovered at the scene.
"An officer's radio which appears to have a bullet lodged in it has also been recovered. Both the radio and the handgun are being sent for expedited forensic tests.
"A post mortem is due to be carried out as soon as possible."
IPCC Commissioner Rachel Cerfontyne appealed for witnesses.
"Fatal shootings by the police are extremely rare and understandably raise significant community concerns," she said.
"I fully recognise how distressing and disturbing this must be for the family and the local community."
David Lammy, the member of parliament for Tottenham, had said Friday: "There is now a mood of anxiety in the local community but everyone must remain calm."


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/blazes-l ... z1UJ8NJWqU
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Thesh » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:07 am UTC

Pissed at the police? Burn a bus and some guys shop! That will certainly solve everything.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Glass Fractal » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:18 am UTC

"Trident, the unit which deals specifically with gun crime in the black community."

What an odd concept.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby engr » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:25 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Pissed at the police? Burn a bus and some guys shop! That will certainly solve everything.


Well, this tactic certainly worked pretty well in LA, Detroit, Paris... Oh wait, it didn't.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby nitePhyyre » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:08 am UTC

Am I reading this right?

Police set up a raid to arrest someone in a taxi cab. The someone starts shooting police. The someone dies in the shootout. City riots in rage.

We must be missing something here.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby icanus » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:22 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:Am I reading this right?

Police set up a raid to arrest someone in a taxi cab. The someone starts shooting police. The someone dies in the shootout. City riots in rage.

We must be missing something here.

Decades of tension and suspicion between the police and local community?

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby nitePhyyre » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:02 am UTC

Ahhh, so basically it was a powder keg, just waiting to blow?
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Jahoclave » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:12 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
We must be missing something here.

That Brits are better at getting pissed off over police abuse than the U.S.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:49 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:
We must be missing something here.

That Brits are better at getting pissed off over police abuse than the U.S.

Pretty much. A response of "no fucking way, I don't believe them pigs", even if it is in error, will be very, very dangerous when someone is dead. Mainly because, you know, somebody's dead, and that's still a big deal to some people. I'm saddened by this response by the community, but not by the principle that people are enraged when one of their number is shot dead and the police, with no moral standing in that community, are not believed about the particulars of the arrest. The police in London in particular have pretty much given up on any claim to honesty of late.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Diadem » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:26 am UTC

Well if English suburbs are in any way comparable to Dutch ones, then whether it was a justified shooting or not bears absolutely no relevence for these rioters.

These are very impoverished immigrant communities that suffer from a lot of crime and other problems. Pretty much the only thing that binds them is a hatred for Western culture. So when there's an incident with the police it doesn't require much the lit the powder keg. The shooting could be entirely justified, it doesn't matter.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:23 pm UTC

Diadem wrote: Pretty much the only thing that binds them is a hatred for Western culture.

That is a staggeringly ignorant sentiment.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Adacore » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:44 pm UTC

Just posting to add some context, for Americans or others who are (more) confused about this: in the UK someone being shot by the police (especially shot to death) is a really big deal. It happens only a few times a year in the whole country. People always seriously question whether the shooting was necessary, and in areas where there is pre-existing tension, reactions like this can, evidently, happen.

I'm disappointed, in all honesty I thought police-public relations in North London had improved past this level. :(

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Thesh » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:06 pm UTC

Honestly, when people are pissed off, legitimately or not, it doesn't take much to set them off. We've seen 34 people dead because the police pulled over a drunk driver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Riots
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby EsotericWombat » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:19 pm UTC

I vastly prefer too much outrage over suspicious police action over too little.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Diadem » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:02 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Diadem wrote: Pretty much the only thing that binds them is a hatred for Western culture.

That is a staggeringly ignorant sentiment.

Well, that statement was conditional on England being comparable to The Netherlands. Perhaps it isn't. Though it does seem to face largely the same problems, and other European nations do seem to face those problems as well. I'd like to hear why England is different then.

England would have to be quite unique though, because a hatred for the dominant culture has always been a binding factor in every disenfranchised group ever.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dobblesworth » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:52 pm UTC

I'm pretty disgusted. I'm going to trust the Met when they say they fatally shot a civilian who was armed and bearing, resisting arrest and shooting another officer. It's tragic that it happened. But it is no grounds to call "police state/brutality" and spend your Saturday night burning down an Aldi and the following Sunday morning looting a JD Sports.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Ptolom » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:04 pm UTC

Dobblesworth wrote:I'm pretty disgusted. I'm going to trust the Met when they say they fatally shot a civilian who was armed and bearing, resisting arrest and shooting another officer. It's tragic that it happened. But it is no grounds to call "police state/brutality" and spend your Saturday night burning down an Aldi and the following Sunday morning looting a JD Sports.

Only if you see the police's powers as legitimate. From an "us vs them" point of view, he was defending himself from an aggressor (The police attempting to arrest him.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby casoid » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:19 pm UTC

Dobblesworth wrote:spend your Saturday night burning down an Aldi and the following Sunday morning looting a JD Sports.


Well you wouldn't burn down the JD Sports and loot the Aldi, would you?

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:49 pm UTC

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/ ... e#block-44

Th Guardian is reporting that it was a police bullet that struck the officer shot during the arrest ended with a suspect shot dead and that sparked the riots.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby sigsfried » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:41 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Dream wrote:
Diadem wrote: Pretty much the only thing that binds them is a hatred for Western culture.

That is a staggeringly ignorant sentiment.

Well, that statement was conditional on England being comparable to The Netherlands. Perhaps it isn't. Though it does seem to face largely the same problems, and other European nations do seem to face those problems as well. I'd like to hear why England is different then.

England would have to be quite unique though, because a hatred for the dominant culture has always been a binding factor in every disenfranchised group ever.


Only so much as you can say the only thing binding the Scots is a hatred for the English, a frankly my experience is that such a statement is closer to the truth (though still a long way from it) than statements about minority communities.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:31 pm UTC

sigsfried wrote:Well, that statement was conditional on England being comparable to The Netherlands. Perhaps it isn't. Though it does seem to face largely the same problems, and other European nations do seem to face those problems as well. I'd like to hear why England is different then.

England would have to be quite unique though, because a hatred for the dominant culture has always been a binding factor in every disenfranchised group ever.


Only so much as you can say the only thing binding the Scots is a hatred for the English, a frankly my experience is that such a statement is closer to the truth (though still a long way from it) than statements about minority communities.[/quote]
No to both of you. Communities have a great deal more to them than hatred of outsiders. Doesn't matter if it's Scots or North London minorities, a whole bunch of similar people living together will have much in common besides dislike of somebody else.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby LtNOWIS » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:49 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:I vastly prefer too much outrage over suspicious police action over too little.

I'm sure shop owners would disagree with your sentiment.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:25 pm UTC

Yes. Different people in different situations, with different interests, will have different preferences. Stating one's preferences is not a claim that they hold universally.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby sigsfried » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:37 pm UTC

No to both of you. Communities have a great deal more to them than hatred of outsiders. Doesn't matter if it's Scots or North London minorities, a whole bunch of similar people living together will have much in common besides dislike of somebody else.


I want to make myself clear. I don't support such an idea, I said it was a long way from the truth. My entire point was the absurdity of claiming the only thing binding them was a hatred. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:54 pm UTC

Not clear at all to me, but don't worry, now that you've noted it, I understand. Diadem's claim that minority communities are bound solely by their opposition to majorities was the problem, in its absolute nature.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby sigsfried » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:00 am UTC

On the issue I do think the police response to the protest, especially given what the protest was about, was unduly provocative. Now of course it is a very difficult job for the police to do but it does seem that at the moment British police, especially in London (though naturally that is where the big protests are), seem to be failing to police protests.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Deep_Thought » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:31 am UTC

Well, it's carried on for a second night.

At this point though, it seems that any possible legitimacy possessed by the original protest has long since faded, to be replaced by opportunistic vandalism and looting. I'm actually hoping the coppers get out on the high streets more for the coming week or so, and I'm not often one advocating an increased police presence. In this case some preventative measures might do some good.

And with regards to the whole minority communities thing - Tottenham is a very mixed area. There's large numbers of just about any community you care to name living there. The main thing linking them, if anything, is a bit of poverty. Tottenham isn't the worst area of London, but it's a bit run down these days. The whole of Haringey (the borough that Tottenham lies in) could do with some investment.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby ojno » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:20 pm UTC

And it's continued today, this time in Hackney. I'm watching the BBC live coverage and it is clearly now just a load of chavs rioting for the sake of rioting.

Apparently it started in Hackney when someone was stopped and searched for an as yet unspecified reason, but again it's lost all legitimacy, if it even had any to begin with. Smashing shops and buses and setting houses on fire really aren't valid methods of protest.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby omgryebread » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:55 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:I vastly prefer too much outrage over suspicious police action over too little.
You "vastly prefer" arson, wanton destruction of private property, and looting? That's pretty disturbing.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby TaintedDeity » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:24 pm UTC

When the alternative is allowing institutionalised violence, inequality, secrecy and hypocrisy to continue I can see why EsotericWombat may hold that opinion.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dauric » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:49 pm UTC

Rioting, arson and looting are such fantastic ways to convince police and politicians that the police don't need to be carrying guns or stopping people they find suspicious for any reason....</sarcasm>

There's a place for a -healthy- distrust of government, after all the ones in power are still people, and power corrupts. Like all things though there's a balance, and these riots clearly cross over from 'reason to protest' to 'excuse to do mindless damage'.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby omgryebread » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:10 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:When the alternative is allowing institutionalised violence, inequality, secrecy and hypocrisy to continue I can see why EsotericWombat may hold that opinion.
If EsotericWombat shot my friend, and I, in return, went and burned down your store, when you weren't involved at all, how is that at all a reasonable or acceptable reaction?
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:28 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Rioting, arson and looting are such fantastic ways to convince police and politicians that the police don't need to be carrying guns or stopping people they find suspicious for any reason....</sarcasm>

The riots are a symptom, not a solution. If you're capable of scratching the surface just a little and wondering why these people are angry enough to riot, you might find that stop-and-search or armed police are what caused this, not what might have to be done because of it.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby omgryebread » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:25 pm UTC

Dream wrote:might find that stop-and-search or armed police are what caused this, not what might have to be done because of it.
No, people being idiotic jackasses caused this. Destroying the property and threatening the lives of innocent people is not an acceptable response. Trying to defend the rioters by saying the cops acted badly in the first place is the same logic American Islamaphobes are using to defend Anders Breivik.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Deep_Thought » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:35 pm UTC

To be fair, the stop and search powers in particular have done an awful lot to alienate minority groups in London in the last decade.

However, as has been pointed out already, these riots are now pretty mindless. I've just watched (from a news helicopter) a gang of youths breaking into a small convenience store. One of them ran off with a crate of tomatoes. At this point it would seem to be far more a case of "smash and grab what you can". The mob has finally figured out that the police can't be everywhere at once, and it takes time to get the heavy gear to where the riots are happening. I'm not sure this is a good development for anyone.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby EsotericWombat » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:45 pm UTC

If the pain of the police state falls only on those directly abused by it, conditions will NEVER change.

For sure, those who are looting aren't doing it out of any civic mindedness, but what they're demonstrating quite clearly is that the clamp-down approach doesn't work. One would think that history alone would be enough to convey that lesson, but here we are.

Nobody likes it when they twist their ankle and it hurts like a bitch, but it's vastly preferable to not feeling the pain and continuing to walk on it, causing more lasting damage.

I have no problem with each and every looter being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, so long as they get fair trials. However, the fundamental problem at play here isn't them.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:49 pm UTC

Reports are beginning to circulate of riots and looting spreading beyond London.

http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/

Leicster also, apparently. Stay safe, everyone.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby a_fuzzyduck » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:51 pm UTC

better links are what the thread needs. Have heard reports of it kicking off in Leeds and Birmingham as well :/
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Роберт » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:00 pm UTC

I'm not going to say riots are never the best response, or say that the police aren't in the wrong, or that police killing people isn't a HUGE DEAL, but... it sure seems like a lot of the rioters aren't doing any good. :|

Wishes of safety for our UK friends.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Felstaff » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:03 pm UTC

MY GODDAMN HIGH STREEEEEET D:

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Animals--that was a small business lingerie store, and the fire has spread to the homes of people behind it.

I've locked myself in my flat.
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