Tottenham Riots

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Jumble » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:45 pm UTC

casoid wrote:
Pandorly wrote:Poor Cameron had to set his holiday short. My heart weeps for him.


Spoiler:
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Disclaimer: I am in no way implying that the David Cameron is anywhere near as cool as Simon Pegg in Hot Fuzz.

Given that I wouldn't trust that man to run a whelk stand the idea of him in charge of automatic weapons would be terrifying. Admittedly, the idea of him in charge of a country is pretty scary as well.

[edit] Bad news: thugs have torched a police station in Nottingham, disturbingly close (for me) to my wife and families current location.
Good news: tomorrow night it's forecast to piss down. I've seen a few riots, and nothing is as effective, not police, not rubber bullets, not tear gas, than a damn good downpour. Saps the enthusiasm of these little turds, ruins their designer trainers and makes it difficult to light a petrol bomb.
Last edited by Jumble on Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:04 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Pandorly » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:03 pm UTC

Deep_Thought wrote:
Pandorly wrote:How come people give a shit when some criminal is shot but they don't care when Ian Tomlinson is beaten by police while coming home from work and later has a brain haemorrage as a result?

People did care - there was quite a large public outrage especially after the two videos came out! Also, just to be accurate, it was an abdominal haemorrage, not a brain haemorrage if I remember correctly.

Apparently it's also spelled haemorrhage, I did not know that. Regardless, he was killed by police during a riot and he wasn't even involved in it which makes it even more retarded that these idiots are rioting and looting because some scumbag was killed. An excellent quote from here is "When a group of teenagers in Clapham were asked why they were looting local businesses, one young girl replied: "We all pay taxes, so we're taking back what belongs to us."." What?! That is possibly the most bizarre statement I've ever heard. The government takes a percentage of your income so that means as an employee of somewhere, you have a right to the property in British shops (presuming she even has a job).

However, I love how the Met always do a shit job of propagating speculation that the person they wrongfully killed did something to provoke them. "...the bullet found lodged in a police radio during the incident with Mark Duggan was police issued.".

Jumble wrote:
casoid wrote:
Spoiler:
Image

Disclaimer: I am in no way implying that the David Cameron is anywhere near as cool as Simon Pegg in Hot Fuzz.

Given that I wouldn't trust that man to run a whelk stand the idea of him in charge of automatic weapons would be terrifying. Admittedly, the idea of him in charge of a country is pretty scary as well.

Fantastic shoop... To be honest, if he was running the place like that I reckon he'd be a lot more effective.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Deep_Thought » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

Pandorly wrote:Apparently it's also spelled haemorrhage

Good point.

An excellent quote from here is "When a group of teenagers in Clapham were asked why they were looting local businesses, one young girl replied: "We all pay taxes, so we're taking back what belongs to us."." What?! That is possibly the most bizarre statement I've ever heard. The government takes a percentage of your income so that means as an employee of somewhere, you have a right to the property in British shops (presuming she even has a job).

Doubtful. If she can't draw the distinction between public and private property I doubt she understands that she has to have a job in order to pay income tax, or that she has to actually for stuff in order to pay VAT. There was another girl who claimed the shops were owned by rich people and therefore it was okay to loot them to show them "that we can do what we want". Yeah, good luck with that.

The Met does not have a good PR unit. Its default is to immediately back their own officers, which is understandable, but it does so until the last possible moment, rather than just repeating "No comment" until the investigation has finished.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:22 pm UTC

Pandorly wrote:because some scumbag was killed.

Congratulations, you're part of the problem.

The rest of society seeing these people as scumbags based on nothing more than rumoured gang affiliation and their postcode/accent/skin colour is exactly why they have no compunction about damaging society when offered the chance.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby yedidyak » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:32 pm UTC

Manchester is being trashed now. This is no longer about police brutality, if it ever was. This is opportunistic looting pure and simple.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby TaintedDeity » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:33 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Pandorly wrote:because some scumbag was killed.

Congratulations, you're part of the problem.

The rest of society seeing these people as scumbags based on nothing more than rumoured gang affiliation and their postcode/accent/skin colour is exactly why they have no compunction about damaging society when offered the chance.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:40 pm UTC

http://boomkat.com/support_pias_labels

Excellent online music store Boomkat has organised a list of all its PIAS fire affected labels so you can easily support them, and is even cool enough to recommend that you buy direct instead of through them. Hats off to Boomkat, above and beyond the call of being an awesome indie retailer.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Ulc » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:41 pm UTC

I cannot help but wonder when the next person is going to die.

The police are trying to get the situation under control (and mob looting is certainly something they have to get under control!), but it just seems to keep escalating. The looting is spreading, while the police are taking into use harsher and harsher weaponry.

That kind of escalation invertible ends with bodies cooling in cold rooms if neither side backs down. The police can't, the looters (I absolutely refuse to accept the term "demonstrates" for them) won't.

Which is not going to end pretty.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby rhino » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:55 pm UTC

London has calmed down tonight (touch wood). I went home through Camden, scene of one of last night's riots, and it was *almost* like a normal day - except that half the shops were pre-emptively boarded over and there was a very noticeable police presence. Considerably better than rampaging looters, but I'm finding it hard to see how we'll get back to an atmosphere of trust and normality in the short term.

Meanwhile Manchester is suffering - bring on the great British weather to bring this madness to an end.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Goplat » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:09 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Pandorly wrote:because some scumbag was killed.

Congratulations, you're part of the problem.

The rest of society seeing these people as scumbags based on nothing more than rumoured gang affiliation and their postcode/accent/skin colour is exactly why they have no compunction about damaging society when offered the chance.
If your reaction to some subset of society seeing you as a scumbag is to indiscriminately start stealing/destroying property, without regard for whether the people you're hurting are actually part of that subset, then you are, in fact, a scumbag.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:14 pm UTC

Goplat wrote:
Dream wrote:
Pandorly wrote:because some scumbag was killed.

Congratulations, you're part of the problem.

The rest of society seeing these people as scumbags based on nothing more than rumoured gang affiliation and their postcode/accent/skin colour is exactly why they have no compunction about damaging society when offered the chance.
If your reaction to some subset of society seeing you as a scumbag is to indiscriminately start stealing/destroying property, without regard for whether the people you're hurting are actually part of that subset, then you are, in fact, a scumbag.

^Incapable of separately assessing an underlying problem from an anti-social symptom: Also part of the problem.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Pandorly » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:16 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Pandorly wrote:because some scumbag was killed.

Congratulations, you're part of the problem.

The rest of society seeing these people as scumbags based on nothing more than rumoured gang affiliation and their postcode/accent/skin colour is exactly why they have no compunction about damaging society when offered the chance.

Well from what I gathered from various online sources, he was a drug dealer. I don't know much about him besides the fact that the police wrongly pre-empted that he would try to kill them and they shot him first. I was merely drawing the comparison between his death and Ian Tomlinson's; a newspaper vendor who was beaten to death by police for no reason, and wondering why a bystander's completely unjustified death at the hands of law enforcement gains a smattering of annoyance whereas a drug dealer's death causes riotous uproar. Although reading back, a rather obvious observation made here pretty much demystifies that observation:
bigglesworth wrote:It's because Ian Tomlinson's peers didn't know many gang-members, and the protests didn't interest the local gangs.


Deep_Thought wrote:Doubtful. If she can't draw the distinction between public and private property I doubt she understands that she has to have a job in order to pay income tax, or that she has to actually for stuff in order to pay VAT. There was another girl who claimed the shops were owned by rich people and therefore it was okay to loot them to show them "that we can do what we want". Yeah, good luck with that.

An excellent point, well made. It really is the disastrous failure of most contemporary education systems that teenagers feel like the underdog of every society and they don't even know why or what to do about it. Last night while watching the Clapham report on the BBC, I was imagining exactly how bitter I'd have to be about not getting a job because of the recession before I set somebody's shop on fire and steal loads of stuff and I simply couldn't imagine it, because it really doesn't make any sense to blame everybody for your shitty situation. Although I'd imagine the rioters' situations are probably considerably shittier than mine, for the most part.

This Hackney woman clearly has her shit straight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4ZLO83D ... r_embedded
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:24 pm UTC

Pandorly wrote:wondering why a bystander's completely unjustified death at the hands of law enforcement gains a smattering of annoyance whereas a drug dealer's death causes riotous uproar.

Because, (drumroll please) the community one of those people came from were completely disaffected and disenfranchised by the rest of society dismissing them as scumbags when actually they
Pandorly wrote:don't know much about him
while the other came from a community that was invested in society to such a degree that they relied on society's mechanisms for justice instead of resorting to blind rage against anything to hand.

People like you are the reason people like the rioters don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves. No one gives a fuck about them, so why should they bother?
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Pandorly » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:37 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Pandorly wrote:wondering why a bystander's completely unjustified death at the hands of law enforcement gains a smattering of annoyance whereas a drug dealer's death causes riotous uproar.

Because, (drumroll please) the community one of those people came from were completely disaffected and disenfranchised by the rest of society dismissing them as scumbags when actually they
Pandorly wrote:don't know much about him
while the other came from a community that was invested in society to such a degree that they relied on society's mechanisms for justice instead of resorting to blind rage against anything to hand.

People like you are the reason people like the rioters don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves. No one gives a fuck about them, so why should they bother?

Talk about circular logic... So the social mechanisms implemented by law-abiding members of society have failed certain individuals who feel as though they are viewed as the underdogs of society. They don't have the capacity or the medium to voice their dissent civilly so they mindlessly rampage and presume that everybody who isn't a part of their crowd is a part of the crowd who presumes they're scumbags. I think your "us and them" view of things is slightly askew. Not to mention the fact that their rampaging sort of provides a case in point for people to label them as such.

Moreover, I never said the community were scumbags, you just wrongly inferred it. From news footage, it appears as though most of the crowd doing the rioting and looting are between 15 and 18, they just look like opportunistic teenagers to me. It would seem as though your totally unfounded presumption about me generalising the entire community as scumbags (and not just the person I have background information on) reflects your prejudice about people and their social groupings more than my mildly informed opinion on one individual does.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby LtNOWIS » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:43 am UTC

Apparently the EDL is going to send out 1,000 members to combat the rioters. I doubt that will help to calm things down.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby M.C. » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:44 am UTC

Pandorly wrote:
Dream wrote:
Pandorly wrote:wondering why a bystander's completely unjustified death at the hands of law enforcement gains a smattering of annoyance whereas a drug dealer's death causes riotous uproar.

Because, (drumroll please) the community one of those people came from were completely disaffected and disenfranchised by the rest of society dismissing them as scumbags when actually they
Pandorly wrote:don't know much about him
while the other came from a community that was invested in society to such a degree that they relied on society's mechanisms for justice instead of resorting to blind rage against anything to hand.

People like you are the reason people like the rioters don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves. No one gives a fuck about them, so why should they bother?

Talk about circular logic... So the social mechanisms implemented by law-abiding members of society have failed certain individuals who feel as though they are viewed as the underdogs of society. They don't have the capacity or the medium to voice their dissent civilly so they mindlessly rampage and presume that everybody who isn't a part of their crowd is a part of the crowd who presumes they're scumbags. I think your "us and them" view of things is slightly askew. Not to mention the fact that their rampaging sort of provides a case in point for people to label them as such.


Not really circular logic as much as it describes a vicious cycle. Each side is hating each other more and more for the actions the other side did in response to the hate. What (I think) Dream is saying is the cycle will never be broken if you allow yourself to dismiss anyone from the other side simply by being one of "them".
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:07 am UTC

LtNOWIS wrote:Apparently the EDL is going to send out 1,000 members to combat the rioters. I doubt that will help to calm things down.


Oh, oh no.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby jakovasaur » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:09 am UTC

LtNOWIS wrote:Apparently the EDL is going to send out 1,000 members to combat the rioters. I doubt that will help to calm things down.

A literal class war, then? That isn't good news.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Zcorp » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:16 am UTC

Pandorly wrote:Talk about circular logic... So the social mechanisms implemented by law-abiding members of society have failed certain individuals who feel as though they are viewed as the underdogs of society. They don't have the capacity or the medium to voice their dissent civilly so they mindlessly rampage and presume that everybody who isn't a part of their crowd is a part of the crowd who presumes they're scumbags. I think your "us and them" view of things is slightly askew. Not to mention the fact that their rampaging sort of provides a case in point for people to label them as such.

It would seem they did try to peacefully assemble and got ignored.
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ondon-riot

I also find it hard to label them as scumbags when the rest of society kind if just expected them to die in their hole instead of fight for a life better than what was available to them with the system. When a person isn't aware enough to understand that looting local stores doesn't equate to getting back your tax money I'd argue that society certainly is failing that person.

Moreover, I never said the community were scumbags, you just wrongly inferred it. From news footage, it appears as though most of the crowd doing the rioting and looting are between 15 and 18, they just look like opportunistic teenagers to me. It would seem as though your totally unfounded presumption about me generalising the entire community as scumbags (and not just the person I have background information on) reflects your prejudice about people and their social groupings more than my mildly informed opinion on one individual does.
When looting an rioting appears to best one of the best options you have to be heard and maybe even increase your quality of life thats a pretty shitty situation to be in. Maybe we should be looking to fix that situation not only because it might be an ethical thing to do, because really who cares about that :roll:, but because in the long run it is also a wise economic thing to do.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dark567 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:23 am UTC

Zcorp wrote:When a person isn't aware enough to understand that looting local stores doesn't equate to getting back your tax money I'd argue that society person certainly is failing that person society.
Blaming the bad decisions someone makes on society, without an indication that person is failing is pretty preposterous. Sometimes people fail without society failing them.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Zcorp » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:26 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:Blaming the bad decisions someone makes on society, without an indication that person is failing is pretty preposterous. Sometimes people fail without society failing them.

Yup, and are you honestly trying to argue that this area of the UK is being well managed by society? Do you think that there isn't indication in this scenario? Really?

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Glass Fractal » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:18 am UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
LtNOWIS wrote:Apparently the EDL is going to send out 1,000 members to combat the rioters. I doubt that will help to calm things down.

A literal class war, then? That isn't good news.


No, it's only class warfare when it benefits the poor.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby adho » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:26 am UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
LtNOWIS wrote:Apparently the EDL is going to send out 1,000 members to combat the rioters. I doubt that will help to calm things down.

A literal class war, then? That isn't good news.

Why does the EDL sending out members make it a class war? Which class is which?
Glass Fractal wrote:No, it's only class warfare when it benefits the poor.

...joking, right?

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:13 am UTC

The EDL adding their 'forces' makes this more of a race war than a class war. Last I checked, people's class wasn't primarily determined by ethnic background.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby buddy431 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:31 am UTC

the Independent Police Complaints Commission says there's "no evidence" the handgun found at the scene of Mark Duggan's death was fired.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

Forensic officers have told the IPCC it may not be possible to "say for certain" whether the handgun found near Mr Duggan was fired.

Further tests on the weapon, which had been converted from a blank-firing pistol to one that shoots live rounds, are being carried out to establish this.


I guess they're still not certain, so it's perhaps a bit early to pass judgement. What's a blank-firing pistol for? Do they mean like a starting pistol? How easy are those to get to fire real bullets? Is that a common method of obtaining illegal firearms in the UK?

Investigations by the IPCC show two shots were fired by a Scotland Yard CO19 firearms officer.



I've got to give kudos to the restraint shown by police - here in the U.S., it would have been closer to twenty shots fired, with maybe 4 hitting the target, and probably another couple in the cab driver.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:09 am UTC

Enokh wrote:More people who deserve to be shot with rubber bullets will take to the streets?

Is the goal to shoot people who deserve to be shot, or to prevent rioting? If the latter, then taking a course of action that will push more rioters to the streets is a fucking terrible idea, no matter how little you like the rioters as people.

Ptolom wrote:The web is already full of pictures of kids covered in blood who have been robbed by other kids. And the response of the police shouldn't be based on what will create the least outrage on the internet.

I doubt Dream is concerned with outrage on the Internet. But outrage on the streets does matter; it is, in fact, the problem. No, rioters aren't good, rational people who direct measured solutions at the sources of problems. But if you want to stop riots, and not just judge rioters, you have to consider how rioters behave, not how they ought to behave.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Adacore » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:41 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:What's a blank-firing pistol for? Do they mean like a starting pistol? How easy are those to get to fire real bullets? Is that a common method of obtaining illegal firearms in the UK?

Yes, it is a common method in the UK. From the Newsnight interview (first link): "We took a blank firer to an official armourers workshop. The old barrel was merely unscrewed from its hinge, a new block of metal was drilled out and filed. The whole process took less than two hours and would cost around £50 in a backstreet workshop."

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Deep_Thought » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:54 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The EDL adding their 'forces' makes this more of a race war than a class war. Last I checked, people's class wasn't primarily determined by ethnic background.

Well, it's even more messy than that, considering an awful lot of the rioters on TV have been just as white as the EDL membership. Normally I'd support shopkeepers banding together to defend their property (The Turkish community did on Sunday night in Haringey), but I'm not sure the EDL would be restrained enough to just protect property.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Plasma Man » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:56 am UTC

The EDL adding their forces might just start a race war.
buddy431 wrote:I've got to give kudos to the restraint shown by police - here in the U.S., it would have been closer to twenty shots fired, with maybe 4 hitting the target, and probably another couple in the cab driver.
Except that somehow a police bullet ended up lodged in a radio being carried by another member of the police. That doesn't sound like a restrained and well-organised action. I'm not sure if the police releasing their version of events would help or not, mainly because they don't have much credibility at the minute.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby ElCarl » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:51 pm UTC

Plasma Man wrote:The EDL adding their forces might just start a race war.
buddy431 wrote:I've got to give kudos to the restraint shown by police - here in the U.S., it would have been closer to twenty shots fired, with maybe 4 hitting the target, and probably another couple in the cab driver.
Except that somehow a police bullet ended up lodged in a radio being carried by another member of the police. That doesn't sound like a restrained and well-organised action. I'm not sure if the police releasing their version of events would help or not, mainly because they don't have much credibility at the minute.


Apparently one shot hit the man in the chest, then the second in the bicep - the bicep shot was a through-and-through which then carried on and hit the other officer in the radio.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:56 pm UTC

They shot at someone who was standing between them? Is anyone else reminded of the old joke about a firing squad who couldn't find a wall so they stood in a circle?
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dream » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:15 pm UTC

ElCarl wrote:he bicep shot was a through-and-through which then carried on and hit the other officer in the radio.

That's supposition. The IPCC press conference didn't specify who shot when or at whom, nor whether any bullets passed through the dead man. It did specify that a firearms officer fired two bullets, that two bullets struck the dead man, one in the torso and one in the biceps, and that the bullet lodged in the radio was a jacketed hollow point of the kind used by police officers. While it is likely that the bullet was fired at the dead man, the possibility remains that there was another shot fired by another officer, not aimed at the man, but fired by accident. That would fit with the highly specific and careful language used by the IPCC spokeswoman. It's not likely, but how likely was the final explanation of the Jean Charles de Menezes shooting? If the bullet fired into the radio was fired by accident, then the case becomes much, much worse for the Met.

Plasma Man wrote:That doesn't sound like a restrained and well-organised action.

The biggest possibility for scandal, in my view, is the possibility that the converted starter pistol was not brandished or even evident during the shooting. In that case the Met would have been grossly negligent in storming a vehicle for no apparent reason, precipitating an entirely unnecessary "firefight" and shooting dead a man who, while he was likely guilty of drug dealing, was also innocent of any offence necessitating such risky tactics.

Steering this into entirely speculative territory, I wonder about the angles of fire that would allow the police to shoot one another if the target was seated in a vehicle with the doors closed. The only way I can imagine it happening would be if the suspect's arms were raised, either surrendering or brandishing a weapon. No allegation has arisen from the IPCC of him threatening the police with the gun, so I wonder what else could have happened.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby casoid » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:03 pm UTC

This was the topic of an all-day discussion at work today.

The courts have started charging people now. One of the first was a 31-year-old teaching assistant (great example, dickhead) - brilliantly, the Magistrate's Court has said that while they would normally sentence someone to 6 months for this sort of commercial burglary, because of the aggravating rioting and other factors they are bumping him and the others up the chain to the Crown Court. They can then be awarded up to a 10 year sentence.

While imprisoning a large number of people will have less-than-wonderful repercussions for the overstretched prison system, it still needs to happen. Criminals with no respect for the authorities, for civilisation, or for even the people around them must be shown that their unacceptable actions will have consequences. I'm not talking about banging people up forever or bringing back the medieval justice system, don't mistake me for a rabid Daily Mail fan.
After all, it's not the harshness of a penalty that deters crime, but the certainty.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:17 pm UTC

casoid wrote:This was the topic of an all-day discussion at work today.

The courts have started charging people now. One of the first was a 31-year-old teaching assistant (great example, dickhead) - brilliantly, the Magistrate's Court has said that while they would normally sentence someone to 6 months for this sort of commercial burglary, because of the aggravating rioting and other factors they are bumping him and the others up the chain to the Crown Court. They can then be awarded up to a 10 year sentence.

While imprisoning a large number of people will have less-than-wonderful repercussions for the overstretched prison system, it still needs to happen. Criminals with no respect for the authorities, for civilisation, or for even the people around them must be shown that their unacceptable actions will have consequences. I'm not talking about banging people up forever or bringing back the medieval justice system, don't mistake me for a rabid Daily Mail fan.
After all, it's not the harshness of a penalty that deters crime, but the certainty.


So putting someone away for possibly 10 years, may not "bang them up forever" but its certainly going to royally screw their life. I know some of the rioters made willful and fully thought out decisions to join in the looting, but Id be willing to bet some were under the influence of mob mentality, in which case, 10 years sounds a bit harsh to me.

Note: this excludes anyone who may have committed murder during the course of events. Lock those people up.

EDIT: Didnt mean to sound quite so cynical at your post.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Deep_Thought » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:26 pm UTC

I doubt the judges will go for 10 years, but 6 months also sounds a bit short. Somewhere in the middle, towards the lower end, sounds better to me.

Although I'd prefer to see property/monetary punishments for the younger rioters in addition to custodial sentences. I know there's a bill that allows judges to confiscate property purchased through money gained illegally, e.g. drug dealing. That's probably not very useful in this situation, as the looted property will be recovered anyway. But I reckon taking away these idiot's Blackberrys and X-Boxes might be a more effective punishment than locking them up. Maybe?

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dark567 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:33 pm UTC

Deep_Thought wrote: But I reckon taking away these idiot's Blackberrys and X-Boxes might be a more effective punishment than locking them up. Maybe?

Uhh. No. I am much less willing to break the law due to having to go to prison for like a week, then I would be for someone to take away my phone or PS3. Like, by a lot. If you up that time to a year I would be willing to part with just about any single object I own to get out of that.
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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Deep_Thought » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:40 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:Uhh. No. I am much less willing to break the law due to having to go to prison for like a week, then I would be for someone to take away my phone or PS3. Like, by a lot. If you up that time to a year I would be willing to part with just about any single object I own to get out of that.

Yes, and I would be the same. Don't be so sure about other people, particularly those that are so materialistic they are willing to risk jail in order to loot a carpet or a pair of trainers. I've read interviews about the law I mentioned (that lets the police seize drug-dealer's TVs) and people claimed it was having a real impact. Before, a gangster could head off to jail for a couple of years and return to his pad, with all his ill-gotten gains intact. Now, they return to empty houses. Then there's the whole issue of whether prison is "tough" enough to be a punishment. But what do I know? The only contact I've had with the justice system is jury service. Oh, and once reporting a horse escaped from a field.

To change topics slightly - this has got to hurt Boris' re-election chances, surely? Are we in for another 4 years of Red Ken (who I voted against at the last Mayoral election, rather than voting for anyone)?

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Ptolom » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:42 pm UTC

From the bbc website http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675
1920: In a further Libyan response to unrest in the UK, Libya's official news agency Jana has published a report urging the UN to protect British "protesters" from "repression".

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Dobblesworth » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:54 pm UTC

Turning up to magistrates court in casual slacks, swearing at media, and using a copy of The Metro as a cheap attempt to cover up your face, is certainly one avenue to not redeem yourself in any sense in the eyes of the public, Mr. 31-yr old teaching assistant from London.

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Re: Tottenham Riots

Postby Glass Fractal » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:49 pm UTC

Ptolom wrote:From the bbc website http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675
1920: In a further Libyan response to unrest in the UK, Libya's official news agency Jana has published a report urging the UN to protect British "protesters" from "repression".


Huh, I heard an interview with one of these people who was comparing it all to the riots in the Mid East.


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