Aussies have 3rd gender passports

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justaman
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Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby justaman » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:59 am UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14926598

Aussies are now able to select a third option for gender when applying for a passport. The gender is "indeterminate" and will appear as an X in the passport. Transgender people can also get passports issued in their sexual identity.

Go Aussie!
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby yurell » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:13 am UTC

Wow, that is amazing! It's a huge step forward.
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby Arancaytar » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:37 am UTC

Good decision. Are they the first country to do this?

Unfortunately, the "indeterminate" option will probably not help much with the "highly inconvenient and frankly sometimes dangerous" at airports part, since places where transgendered people get a hard time will not react well to seeing the "X" either. Still, having the option at all is a step forward.
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby jules.LT » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:02 am UTC

In defense of airport security people, when the person doesn't seem to match what their passport says it's a good reason to suspect a forged passport. That's the whole point of having information on there like eye colour, age, etc.

This is a good move.
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby AvatarIII » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:13 am UTC

do you think "undisclosed" would be preferable to "indeterminate"?

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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby GhostWolfe » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:39 am UTC

You don't have the option *not* to disclose your gender for purposes of obtaining a passport. "Indeterminate" is still a shitty word, I wonder if "other" was simply too... open to interpretation (in a legal or document records sense)? Um, what's the word I want here? It's a good step forward.

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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby AvatarIII » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:47 am UTC

GhostWolfe wrote:You don't have the option *not* to disclose your gender for purposes of obtaining a passport.



why not? why should you have to disclose your gender any more than your sexulaity for example,

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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby jules.LT » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:46 am UTC

And why should you have to disclose your eye colour?
Because it's identification information: it helps people match the passport to the person.
Gender is still one of the most recognizable traits of a person, most of the time.
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby jestingrabbit » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:49 am UTC

AvatarIII wrote:
GhostWolfe wrote:You don't have the option *not* to disclose your gender for purposes of obtaining a passport.


why not? why should you have to disclose your gender any more than your sexulaity for example,


You have to have a physical description on the passport as well as a photo, for the purposes of verifying that the person with the passport is the person issued the passport.

This is pretty great for intersex people.
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby the_mean_marine » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:19 am UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:You have to have a physical description on the passport as well as a photo, for the purposes of verifying that the person with the passport is the person issued the passport.


Really? As far as I'm aware the only information on an M series (2nd most recent type) Australian passport is:
Photo of Passport Holder
Type (P for passport)
Code of Issuing State (AUS)
DOCUMENT No.
Name
Nationality (AUSTRALIAN)
Date of Birth
Sex (male, female and indeterminate)
Place of Birth (Only the city or town is listed, even if born outside Australia)
Date of issue
Holder's signature
Date of expiry
Authority (AUSTRALIA if issued in Australia, or the name of the issuing diplomatic mission if issued overseas)

(Blatantly stolen from wiki however I pulled out my own to double check and it seems to match)

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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby zombie_monkey » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:46 pm UTC

https://www.passports.gov.au/web/sexgenderapplicants.aspx
A passport may be issued to sex and gender diverse applicants in M (male), F (female) or X (indeterminate/unspecified/intersex).
Last edited by zombie_monkey on Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:12 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby AvatarIII » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:43 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:And why should you have to disclose your eye colour?
Because it's identification information: it helps people match the passport to the person.
Gender is still one of the most recognizable traits of a person, most of the time.


well as far as i know UK passports do not have eye colour listed in them, well, they have a colour photo but i'm not sure how making people disclose their gender is any more helpful than making them disclose whether they have a beard or not,

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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby jules.LT » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:03 pm UTC

AvatarIII wrote:i'm not sure how making people disclose their gender is any more helpful than making them disclose whether they have a beard or not,

That's completely disingenuous.
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby jestingrabbit » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:40 am UTC

the_mean_marine wrote:
jestingrabbit wrote:You have to have a physical description on the passport as well as a photo, for the purposes of verifying that the person with the passport is the person issued the passport.


Really? As far as I'm aware the only information on an M series (2nd most recent type) Australian passport is:
Photo of Passport Holder <etc>


https://www.passports.gov.au/web/epassport.aspx wrote:Biometrics explained

A biometric system is an automated means of recognising someone by measuring a distinguishing physical trait.

Australia’s ePassport uses just one physical trait - the face. The information needed to generate the facial biometric information comes from the photograph supplied with the passport application. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade digitises the photograph you supply with your application. The digitised photo is stored in the passports database and in a computer chip in your ePassport. Using biometric technology, the passport photo can be digitally compared with another facial image to check that the two images are of the same person. The passport photo is used for identity verification and fraud detection.


So, it certainly appears that the only info is what's written and the photo, but the photo is actually used in a pretty sophisticated way to create a really strongly verifiable physical description.

That said, yeah, the gender isn't really necessary. Its a bit surprising to me that they've ditched the rest of the data that used to be there, but the way they use the facial data is really more than enough. Gender/height/etc are pretty superfluous in that context.
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby Sonata » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:54 am UTC

Not sure if they've 'ditched' any passport information lately. Mine doesn't have details like eyecolour and I got mine in 2001.

It always confuses me when Americans seem to have things like weight and height on theirs.
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby AvatarIII » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:30 am UTC

jules.lt wrote:
AvatarIII wrote:i'm not sure how making people disclose their gender is any more helpful than making them disclose whether they have a beard or not,

That's completely disingenuous.



my point is, people's appearences can change drastically in the lifetime of a passport, things like eye colour do not,

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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby Vash » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:42 am UTC

In my mind, this thread should have a subtitle of "coming to America in 2042."

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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby GhostWolfe » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:49 am UTC

AvatarIII wrote:my point is, people's appearences can change drastically in the lifetime of a passport, things like eye colour do not,
First up, that's why passports expire. Secondly, eye colour is fairly* easy to determine from a simple headshot, gender notsomuch**.

/angell

*I'm looking at my passport, and you can fairly easily see that my eyes are some species of "blue"
**Basically Decent or not, a person's apparent gender is something you can see & compare to the passport as a data point on whether or not the person is the one on the passport. Having an X gender is a step closer to making that data point more accurate & less judgemental.
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby AvatarIII » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:04 am UTC

GhostWolfe wrote:
AvatarIII wrote:my point is, people's appearences can change drastically in the lifetime of a passport, things like eye colour do not,
First up, that's why passports expire. Secondly, eye colour is fairly* easy to determine from a simple headshot, gender notsomuch**.

/angell

*I'm looking at my passport, and you can fairly easily see that my eyes are some species of "blue"
**Basically Decent or not, a person's apparent gender is something you can see & compare to the passport as a data point on whether or not the person is the one on the passport.


yes passports expire, but they don't expire particularly quickly, i'm pretty confident that someone could go from completely one gender to completely another in the lifespan of a passport,

i should make clear, i am not saying that no passports should say gender, i'm saying that the option to not disclose gender for those inclined would be better than the option of "indeterminate"

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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby jules.LT » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:03 am UTC

AvatarIII wrote:i should make clear, i am not saying that no passports should say gender, i'm saying that the option to not disclose gender for those inclined would be better than the option of "indeterminate"

Let me give you a convenient link to something that is hidden somewhere in the outer reaches of the internets: YOUR ANSWER
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby Arancaytar » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:09 am UTC

justaman wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14926598

Aussies are now able to select a third option for gender when applying for a passport. The gender is "indeterminate" and will appear as an X in the passport. Transgender people can also get passports issued in their sexual identity.

Go Aussie!


By the way, that last bit ("transgender people can also get passports issued in their sexual identity") is a fairly significant part I didn't see in the article itself. It said that so far the passport could only be changed after an operation, and now they'll be able to pick the "indeterminate" option. Will transgendered people (with a determinate gender, which is not their biological one) be able to pick their "target" gender, or be stuck with the "X"?
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Re: Aussies have 3rd gender passports

Postby yurell » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:18 am UTC

From Zombie Monkey's link:

Sex reassignment surgery is not a prerequisite to issue a passport in a new gender. Birth or citizenship certificates do not need to be amended for sex and gender diverse applicants to be issued a passport in their preferred gender.

A letter from a medical practitioner certifying that the person has had, or is receiving, appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition to a new gender, or that they are intersex and do not identify with the sex assigned to them at birth, is acceptable.

The letter will only be accepted from practitioners registered with the Medical Board of Australia (or equivalent overseas authority). ‘Appropriate clinical treatment’ does not have to be specified.


So if you're a transexual, you should be able to select your target gender.
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