Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:08 pm UTC

Belial wrote:The problem is that you skipped straight to this, bypassing the part where anyone went to the GA with a description of the violent individual...

Sure, and I was pointing out that your problem was that you skipped straight to 'lazy cops' or 'story never happened'.
Belial wrote:All you can say is that a bunch of people were standing around in an area, possibly making it difficult for a lone cop to apprehend a suspect without further work and assistance. People can't do shit about something they don't know about.

No, what you can say is a bunch of people were standing in an area, and someone or some people was/were assaulting people from the safety of the crowd. You can also say the crowd was doing nothing to apprehend those people, and was, in effect, creating a dangerous environment wherein people could perpetuate assault and not be apprehended. Repeatedly. While 'harboring dangerous criminals' is possibly an exaggeration, saying that the Occupy movement there was preventing the apprehension of violent individuals is not.
gmalivuk wrote:Would you similarly say that a house is "harboring violent individuals" if a criminal was hiding out there, or would you simply acknowledge that the confined space and obscured lines of sight make it more difficult for a single cop to arrest him?

Are the tenants of the house standing in the way of the police from starting an investigation? Are they aware of a criminal hiding in their closet and doing nothing to tell the police of said criminal in said closet? Then yes, I would say the people living in the house are harboring violent individuals.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:21 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Are the tenants of the house standing in the way of the police from starting an investigation? Are they aware of a criminal hiding in their closet and doing nothing to tell the police of said criminal in said closet? Then yes, I would say the people living in the house are harboring violent individuals.
Who said anything about purposeful actions of people living in the house. I was talking about the walls and doors and stairs of the house itself, which by their very presence make apprehending a criminal therein difficult and dangerous.

The point being that the people in a crowd don't need to be doing (or not doing) *anything* in particular for it to nonetheless be dangerous to go among them to arrest someone.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby addams » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:57 pm UTC

So? How is the Occupy Wall Street going?

Does anyone know anything? I know that it is difficult for the people on the ground. What good is being done? Any?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:33 pm UTC

You know, I hate most protesters with a weird kind of passion. It's always the same crowd; the hippies, the anti-globalization hypocrites (they still want cell phones, airplanes, and imported food), the spoiled white kids with no useful skills that popped out of the right vaginas and feel guilty about it but don't want to give up their own wealth, and many others. They throw rocks at the police and then bitch about being teargassed. It's always the same people standing outside the courthouse in my hometown every afternoon for the past decade; if you can walk around carrying a picket sign, you aren't crippled and should get a job. Bunch of leftover hippies that want to recapture the days of their youth when they had lots of sex with people they met at these protests.

That being said, with OWS, I have never agreed* with a (modern) major protest more. Why the hell was there no justice for the current recession? All those years of banks giving out bad loans, why the fuck did those banks get a bailout for stupidity? Why are millions losing their homes but the banking bosses still have their jobs? Why did GM and Chrysler get bailouts even though they produced cars few wanted even before the recession? That's the reason OWS is still going on for months. Even people like me, who hate protests and protesters in general, are pissed. Hell, I'll even go so far as to say that the Tea Party formed for the same damn thing (though on the 'other side').

*I still don't agree with the majority of it. Wall Street wasn't the problem. Should be Occupy Bank of America or Occupy Washington, but no one gives a shit about yet another protest in D.C. Though I do love the message of using credits unions instead of major banks; they give you better rates and don't charge you just to see your money.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby mike-l » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:36 pm UTC

Occupy Toronto now has the open support of terrorists, with threats of cyber attacks if they are removed.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby ShootTheChicken » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:55 pm UTC

Link?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:01 pm UTC

ShootTheChicken wrote:Link?


I think he's referring to Anonymous.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Belial » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:46 pm UTC

But it sounds less idiotic if you say "terrorists"
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby ShootTheChicken » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:48 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Occupy Toronto now has the open support of terrorists bored, computer wielding 14 year olds, with threats of cyber attacks if they are removed.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Lucrece » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:25 pm UTC

I'd just like to know where all the teargassing and riot police was when the actually armed teaparties were protesting with their shotguns and rifles right beside them. Protesting young/minority people? Call in the teargas. Middle-aged+ white people? They're harmless.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby nitePhyyre » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:32 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
ShootTheChicken wrote:Link?
I think he's referring to Anonymous.
The video says Toronto will be “removed from the Internet” unless the city promises to leave the protesters alone.
Ooooo, scary. Be careful tdot.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:33 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:I'd just like to know where all the teargassing and riot police was when the actually armed teaparties were protesting with their shotguns and rifles right beside them. Protesting young/minority people? Call in the teargas. Middle-aged+ white people? They're harmless.


[tinfoil hat]Well, obviously the Tea Party, being created and orchestrated entirely by the corporate powers to redirect anger away from their malfeasance and toward the poor, immigrants, and "socialists", had no interest in seeing the Tea Party have any problems. OWS, on the other hand, is a grassroots movement aimed directly at corporate power, and thus the powerful corporations felt the need to pressure government into shutting it down.[/tinfoil hat]

To be fair, the Tea Party protests/rallies normally did not stay more than a day in the same location AFAIK. I do not believe that any OWS protests faced similar problems within a day of their inception. The extended nature of the OWS protests is tending to exacerbate problems between the protesters and the authorities.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:57 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:I'd just like to know where all the teargassing and riot police was when the actually armed teaparties were protesting with their shotguns and rifles right beside them. Protesting young/minority people? Call in the teargas. Middle-aged+ white people? They're harmless.

It's a really good question, but to be perfectly honest, I don't see the two protesting similarly; as LaserGuy pointed out, the Occupy movement has indefinitely camped out in places, has been explicitly asked to leave, and has refused. It has heckled cops and decried the use of non-aggressive riot control mechanisms, even using them as an excuse to actually riot. The Tea Party paid for all it's protest permits, and was gone after a day or two at any given rally. So yes, the Tea Party had people who were carrying weapons; that's the right of an American citizen. While I doubt a bunch of minority youths carrying weapons would be treated as well, the two movements are not protesting similarly.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby kiklion » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:00 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:I'd just like to know where all the teargassing and riot police was when the actually armed teaparties were protesting with their shotguns and rifles right beside them. Protesting young/minority people? Call in the teargas. Middle-aged+ white people? They're harmless.


Or perhaps, as was previously mentioned (though it is a long thread and I for one often cannot read it often enough to catch every post so I understand if you did not) the locations where tea partiers showed up with guns were locations where there were open carry laws and/or that type of firearm was legally allowed to be carried. In summary, cops react peacefully to law abiding people, react violently to law breaking people. I would love for evidence to exist of a bunch of minorities chanting outside a politcal event brandishing licensed hand guns in an open carry state to reenforce the notion of racism within the police force because I believe it exists, but there is none that I know of.

Now whether those laws are just or not would be a valid point to argue. But I don't see how the cops actions were not predictable based off of the law alone, ignoring the people doing the act.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:I'd just like to know where all the teargassing and riot police was when the actually armed teaparties were protesting with their shotguns and rifles right beside them. Protesting young/minority people? Call in the teargas. Middle-aged+ white people? They're harmless.
Probably similar to why we invaded Iraq on a pretense of finding WMDs while staying out of North Korea, despite its much crazier government and certainty that they really do have such weapons.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby kiklion » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:30 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Lucrece wrote:I'd just like to know where all the teargassing and riot police was when the actually armed teaparties were protesting with their shotguns and rifles right beside them. Protesting young/minority people? Call in the teargas. Middle-aged+ white people? They're harmless.
Probably similar to why we invaded Iraq on a pretense of finding WMDs while staying out of North Korea, despite its much crazier government and certainty that they really do have such weapons.


Pretty sure minorities/youth/NK don't have much oil. Nor did bush Sr start an invasion that his son needed to finish.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Belial » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:11 pm UTC

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby ShootTheChicken » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:15 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Sad that this is becoming routine?


I'm amazed at the lack of outrage and desire to rationalize it all away.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Belial » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:16 pm UTC

I'm all outraged out. Call me when the violent rebellion starts.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:19 pm UTC

ShootTheChicken wrote:
Belial wrote:Sad that this is becoming routine?
I'm amazed at the lack of outrage and desire to rationalize it all away.
Disappointed, yes. Amazed, less so.

Rationalizing it away means people can go on thinking that *they* will never be victims of any police brutality, just so long as they continue avoiding doing things cops don't like, such as disagreeing with cops.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:27 pm UTC

That quote is totally infuriating, and underlines a principal communication breakdown between cops and protestors.

That said, and without trying to draw attention away from the absurdity of the notion that linking arms is violent protest, I wonder if there is any reasonable way for police to disperse a crowd that are doing this. I find the practice entirely reasonable so long as I agree with the context.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Nordic Einar » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:03 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:That quote is totally infuriating, and underlines a principal communication breakdown between cops and protestors.

That said, and without trying to draw attention away from the absurdity of the notion that linking arms is violent protest, I wonder if there is any reasonable way for police to disperse a crowd that are doing this. I find the practice entirely reasonable so long as I agree with the context.


Calmly and non-violently arrest those involved? During the DADT protests people handcuffed themselves to the white house fence - they weren't beaten, hit with batons, or maced. Know what happened? The police cut their cuffs, then calmly arrested them. Which is basically the point of non-violent civil disobedience; you EXPECT to be arrested.

People are linking arms? Warn them that doing so will result in arrest. Then, y'know, calmly arrest them. None of that requires riot gear, chemical agents, or big sticks.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Роберт » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:17 pm UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:That quote is totally infuriating, and underlines a principal communication breakdown between cops and protestors.

That said, and without trying to draw attention away from the absurdity of the notion that linking arms is violent protest, I wonder if there is any reasonable way for police to disperse a crowd that are doing this. I find the practice entirely reasonable so long as I agree with the context.


Calmly and non-violently arrest those involved? During the DADT protests people handcuffed themselves to the white house fence - they weren't beaten, hit with batons, or maced. Know what happened? The police cut their cuffs, then calmly arrested them. Which is basically the point of non-violent civil disobedience; you EXPECT to be arrested.

People are linking arms? Warn them that doing so will result in arrest. Then, y'know, calmly arrest them. None of that requires riot gear, chemical agents, or big sticks.

Exactly. Occupy Austin had several arrests and nobody was violent on either side that I saw (edit: I wasn't there personally, FTR). There was quite a bit of yelling of course.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:27 pm UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:People are linking arms? Warn them that doing so will result in arrest. Then, y'know, calmly arrest them. None of that requires riot gear, chemical agents, or big sticks.

Or, alternatively, say "Gee, you all appear to be assembling quite peaceably. Carry on, then." Wishful thinking, I'm sure, but either way, the braining sticks are unnecessary.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:33 pm UTC

My question is more aimed at what point passively and non-violently doing something becomes resisting arrest. Linking arms and refusing to move? Struggling against the cops that are trying to 'unlink' you from your neighbors?
Heisenberg wrote:Or, alternatively, say "Gee, you all appear to be assembling quite peaceably. Carry on, then." Wishful thinking, I'm sure, but either way, the braining sticks are unnecessary.

Except where they are illegally remaining somewhere they have been instructed to vacate. Which is why they get arrested, mind you, not why they get assaulted by cops.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Роберт » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:35 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:My question is more aimed at what point passively and non-violently doing something becomes resisting arrest. Linking arms and refusing to move? Struggling against the cops that are trying to 'unlink' you from your neighbors?

Depending on your definition of struggle, this.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Nordic Einar » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:47 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:My question is more aimed at what point passively and non-violently doing something becomes resisting arrest. Linking arms and refusing to move? Struggling against the cops that are trying to 'unlink' you from your neighbors?

Depending on your definition of struggle, this.


Mind, "resisting arrest" doesn't necessarily mean you should be beaten or shot w/ "Less-Than-Lethal" weapons, as long as you aren't resisting violently or posing a danger to yourself or anyone else.

"Less-Than-Lethal" interventions - like flashbangs, pepper spray, tasers, etc - are SUPPOSED to be used in instances where an officer would INSTEAD use his firearm. Like, instead of shooting and killing you, I'm going to use my taser. Instead we have officers all across the fucking continent (Canada has had a LOT of problems with this as well) using their "Less-Than-Lethals" at anyone who even LOOKS like they'll be uncooperative - and the thing about LTLs? They can STILL be lethal.

Ideally the protesters would keep their arms linked for a time before allowing themselves to be peacefully arrested. Because of how unorganized this movement is, though, I doubt any of them have been actually trained in nonviolent protest though so I expect them to refuse to unlink, etc. That said, the police don't need to crack some fucking skulls to get a couple of college youth to unlink their arms so they can be arrested.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby nitePhyyre » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:24 am UTC

Ya, just grab the arms and twist. They'll pop right off.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Triangle_Man » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:57 am UTC

I can no longer tell if the situation is getting 'better' or 'worse' at Occupy Vancouver.

In this case both 'better' and 'worse' are subjective terms.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Iulus Cofield » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:50 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Lucrece wrote:I'd just like to know where all the teargassing and riot police was when the actually armed teaparties were protesting with their shotguns and rifles right beside them. Protesting young/minority people? Call in the teargas. Middle-aged+ white people? They're harmless.

It's a really good question, but to be perfectly honest, I don't see the two protesting similarly; as LaserGuy pointed out, the Occupy movement has indefinitely camped out in places, has been explicitly asked to leave, and has refused. It has heckled cops and decried the use of non-aggressive riot control mechanisms, even using them as an excuse to actually riot. The Tea Party paid for all it's protest permits, and was gone after a day or two at any given rally. So yes, the Tea Party had people who were carrying weapons; that's the right of an American citizen. While I doubt a bunch of minority youths carrying weapons would be treated as well, the two movements are not protesting similarly.


I never paid close enough attention to Tea Party rallies, but I would be surprised if there were in fact no police present at them. Every protest I've ever been to or happened to pass by had at least one cop loitering around, looking bored just to keep an eye on things.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Hawknc » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:42 am UTC

OWS being swept out, unconfirmed rumours of NYPD counter-terrorism units being used.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby aldonius » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:18 am UTC

Gut reaction: this can't end well.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Nordic Einar » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:19 am UTC


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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby keozen » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:22 am UTC

Stolen from Reddit but it seemed appropriate:

Citizen! It has recently come to our attention that you wish to exercise your first amendment freedoms. In order to ensure compliance with Free Speech Safety standards please obey the following rules to ensure that your protest in conducted properly.

-You can exercise your rights in a designated Free Speech Zone. Anyone who is caught outside specified zones participating in a free speech action will be beaten and jailed.

-You must apply for a permit to designate a Free Speech Zone. To apply for a permit please contact the Board of Permitting and Public Safety. It is expected that you will have your sanitation, safety, education, environmental impact and concessions permits before applying. Anyone found participating in a free speech action without a permit will be beaten and jailed.

-Free Speech Zones operate between the hours of 9am - 5pm, anyone caught participating in a free speech action outside of those times will be beaten and jailed.

-All citizens participating in free speech actions must be properly dressed to identify themselves to authorities, corporate representatives and interested third parties. These uniforms can be purchased at several Free Speech Distribution Authorities located throughout your community. Anyone caught participating in a free speech action without proper attire will be beaten and jailed.

-No items will be allowed to be carried into the Free Speech Zone. Anything that is not attached directly to your person or is out of compliance with the standard Free Speech Zone attire protocol will confiscated before entering the Free Speech Zone. Those caught with foreign items are subject to beatings and possible incarceration at the officers discretion. Any property confiscated will be promptly destroyed.

The first amendment is important to us, and we hope by obeying these simple rules you can make our community a safer and happier place.

Good luck with your free speech action!
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:22 pm UTC

According to Twitter, Mayor Bloomberg says they need to only clear out temporarily.

http://twitter.com/#!/NYCMayorsOffice

Occupants of Zuccotti should temporarily leave and remove tents and tarps. Protestors can return after the Park is cleared.


Press Briefing at 8:00am. So... just about now. The sexual assault charges continue to come in across the country at Occupy sites, and the urine / feces problem hasn't gone away as far as I can tell. A two-month protest is unprecedented in history, and the public is increasingly getting tired of the protesters. I honestly would support a temporary clearing.

Its a stretch to say that staying in a public park for multiple months on end is part of your first amendment rights. As stated before, a number of cities have ordinances against homelessness. The fact of staying in a public area for long amounts of time has never been looked favorably upon. It was creative to use it as a form of protest, and I do support the right to protest...

But this style of protest has a huge number of problems associated with it by now. The mayor saying "Lets temporarily stop this thing" is no where close to the hyperbole that keozen seems to be asserting. I honestly don't know of a single person in real life who supports you guys anymore.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Decker » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:23 pm UTC

According to BBC, it sounds like it didn't go TOO badly.
The BBC's Laura Trevelyan, near the park, says the overnight action clearly took the camp by surprise.

The mood was tense, with some angry scuffles between police and protesters but no serious violence, says our correspondent.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:41 pm UTC

Bloomberg from the 8:00AM press release.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45299622/ns ... sJjP_JauUk
"Unfortunately, the park was becoming a place where people came not to protest, but rather to break laws, and in some cases, to harm others," Bloomberg said in a statement. "There have been reports of businesses being threatened and complaints about noise and unsanitary conditions that have seriously impacted the quality of life for residents and businesses in this now-thriving neighborhood."

"Protesters have had two months to occupy the park with tents and sleeping bags," he added. "Now they will have to occupy the space with the power of their arguments."


I dunno, I think I'm honestly for this. The park is still open, you guys are still allowed to march. Its just that people are completely fet up with the protest tactics of Occupy and are now cracking down on it.

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Some in the media say that the police are responding to this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/ ... 0G20111114
"We will shut down Wall Street," a post on the movement's Facebook page said. "We will ring the People's Bell, and initiate a street carnival in which we rebuild and celebrate the neighborhoods that the Wall Street economy has destroyed."

The group promises a "a block party the 1 percent will never forget."

A spokesman for the stock exchange declined to comment.

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, asked by reporters on Monday about the protesters' plans, said: "The New York Stock exchange will open on time. People will be able to get to work, you can rest assured."


Perhaps this is the true meaning of the message. You're allowed to protest, but as soon as they started making a threat towards shutting down... erm... one of the most important places in America frankly... then the police raid hits.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:54 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Perhaps this is the true meaning of the message. You're allowed to protest, but as soon as they started making a threat towards shutting down... erm... one of the most important places in America frankly... then the police raid hits.

The Occupy movement is hindering more than just Wall Street.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby keozen » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:03 pm UTC

Yes what I posted above was hyperbole, I didn't mean to suggest that I agree 100% with it, bad posting.

I do believe that sanitation may have been a problem but a forced eviction at 1am in the morning where there were reported uses of tear gas, sound cannons and baton violence after conveniently banning press presence does seem a little over the top too. There are less drastic measures that could have been taken.

As long as people are still allowed to go and protest freely then I'm fine with it. If they're banned from taking tents and sleeping bags then I'd suggest setting up a "shifts" system so there's always at least some presence there if that's what they wish to do.

And of course any actual illegal activity going on at such protests should be dealt with the same as if it had happened anywhere else.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:08 pm UTC

keozen wrote:And of course any actual illegal activity going on at such protests should be dealt with the same as if it had happened anywhere else.

But that's rather the point: in many of these cities, camping in these parks is illegal.
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