Actual (Association) Football Talk.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Diadem » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:39 pm UTC

Uruguay won't be playing for a draw though, just in case Costa Rica defeats England as well. So Italy will have to put in effort. I don't think an Italian victory over Uruguay is outside the realm of possibility. In fact I'd say it's likely. Italy probably is the stronger team. Of course Italy still needs to defeat Costa Rica, and England needs to defeat Costa Rica with a 2 goal margin. But neither of those are extremely unlikely either.

So strangely enough I'd say England still has pretty good odds of getting into the next round. Give it a 25% chance.

I do hope they make it. England hasn't had any luck with football in ages, and they really got a nice squad this time. Honestly I think they played a better game than Uruguay. They also should have gotten a penalty in the 2nd half.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Xenomortis » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:44 pm UTC

Uruguay's second goal was horrible to watch - fair play to Suarez, but he shouldn't have been given the chance.
England have played better than I've seen at previous World Cup's; it'd be a shame to go out, but they've given away too much at key moments and you can't afford that in a tough group.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Adacore » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:58 pm UTC

Yeah, England have generally played really well, better than I've seen them play in years, but they've also made the occasional horrific mistake at both ends of the field in their two games so far. They probably deserve at least two draws, from the level of play overall, but if they can't put away clear goal scoring chances and they give away easy opportunities then it's hard to feel that two 2-1 defeats is the most unfair scoreline in the world.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby charliepanayi » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:17 pm UTC

Italy were awful today, but top marks to Costa Rica. They've been great so far and I hope they top the group now. And Italy v Uruguay should be a fun winner takes all game.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby ahammel » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:57 pm UTC

charliepanayi wrote:Italy were awful today, but top marks to Costa Rica. They've been great so far and I hope they top the group now. And Italy v Uruguay should be a fun winner takes all game.

Pity about England, though. I've seen a lot of complaints about Rooney and Hodgson, but I don't think England turned in a bad performance at all, second Uruguay goal aside. No shame in losing twice by very narrow margins in a nightmare of a group. I think they'll do well at the next Euro if they can straighten out the defence a bit.

Three goals and a saved penalty in the first half of Switzerland / France. Not a bad use of my lunch hour.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Zamfir » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:56 pm UTC

Which means you missed 4 goals :) and Benzema put in another one in the final whistle... which doesn't count yet? Would be odd if he misses out on being top scorer because of that.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Diadem » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:32 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:So strangely enough I'd say England still has pretty good odds of getting into the next round. Give it a 25% chance.

I have to admit that as of today I am significantly less optimistic about England's chances.

And either Uruguay or Italy is also going out. I guess we found our group of death.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:33 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Diadem wrote:So strangely enough I'd say England still has pretty good odds of getting into the next round. Give it a 25% chance.

I have to admit that as of today I am significantly less optimistic about England's chances.

Well, yeah.
I mean 0% is quite often less than 25%. :P
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Diadem » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:37 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:
Diadem wrote:
Diadem wrote:So strangely enough I'd say England still has pretty good odds of getting into the next round. Give it a 25% chance.

I have to admit that as of today I am significantly less optimistic about England's chances.

Well, yeah.
I mean 0% is quite often less than 25%. :P

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby ahammel » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:47 pm UTC

Ecuador is the only team whose kits actually look decent with those fluorescent yellow boots.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby charliepanayi » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:09 pm UTC

Very harsh on Iran, but what a goal from Messi. And I much prefer a moment of magic like that from him than from Ronaldo.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby ahammel » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:08 pm UTC

Oh man, Germany / Ghana was another great, great game. The Ghanaians will be disappointed with the draw, but top marks to them. Great effort after the loss to the USA. Could be a very interesting finish in that group.

Good world cup, this.

Edit: The plot thickens in group F! If Iran and Argentina both win their last games 1-0, then Iran draws lots with Nigeria for second place.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby charliepanayi » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:57 pm UTC

Belgium v Russia was deathly dull, so nice of South Korea v Algeria to make up for it. After the first round of games it looked like Ivory Coast might be the only African side to make the second round but now four of them are still in with a shout.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby roband » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:58 am UTC

ahammel wrote:Oh man, Germany / Ghana was another great, great game. The Ghanaians will be disappointed with the draw, but top marks to them. Great effort after the loss to the USA. Could be a very interesting finish in that group.

We watched the first half, then turned off for the second :( HUGE MISTAKE

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Diadem » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:08 am UTC

So, Germany and the United States will face each other in the last round, and both teams need only a draw to reach the knockout phase. In that case Germany wins the group, and the USA comes in second, a result that is probably acceptable to both countries. What's more, both countries have German coaches, who know each other well.

So yeah, that is going to be one boring game. Do you think they'll even bother to show up before signing off on a 0-0 draw?

Side note: As a chess player, it has always mystified me why so many football fans and players seem to think that prearranged draws are unfair. In chess this happens all the time and is completely normal. Why risk everything by trying to go for a win when a draw suffices? Obviously it would be unfair to throw a game for someone else's benefit. But for your own benefit, that's just optimizing your performance. Isn't that the entire point of sports?
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby charliepanayi » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:55 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:So, Germany and the United States will face each other in the last round, and both teams need only a draw to reach the knockout phase. In that case Germany wins the group, and the USA comes in second, a result that is probably acceptable to both countries. What's more, both countries have German coaches, who know each other well.

So yeah, that is going to be one boring game. Do you think they'll even bother to show up before signing off on a 0-0 draw?

Side note: As a chess player, it has always mystified me why so many football fans and players seem to think that prearranged draws are unfair. In chess this happens all the time and is completely normal. Why risk everything by trying to go for a win when a draw suffices? Obviously it would be unfair to throw a game for someone else's benefit. But for your own benefit, that's just optimizing your performance. Isn't that the entire point of sports?


I wouldn't be so quick to assume Germany and USA will play out a tame draw. Germany probably don't want any more jibes after the infamous West Germany v Austria game in 1982 and I'd point out that in qualifying, the USA had the chance to ensure their biggest rivals Mexico didn't qualify for the World Cup at all by just playing out the last few minutes against Panama. Instead they got a goal and threw Mexico a lifeline. So I think both teams will give it their all. More likely is Portugal and Ghana draw and sink each other's chances!
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby ahammel » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:03 pm UTC

Diadem wrote: Side note: As a chess player, it has always mystified me why so many football fans and players seem to think that prearranged draws are unfair. In chess this happens all the time and is completely normal.
Unless I'm mistaken, actually communicating with one another in advance to arrange a draw is against the rules. Nothing to stop both sides from playing into book draw lines once they're actually at the board, of course.


Why risk everything by trying to go for a win when a draw suffices? Obviously it would be unfair to throw a game for someone else's benefit. But for your own benefit, that's just optimizing your performance. Isn't that the entire point of sports?
Well, no. That's certainly one of the points of sports, but there are others including "entertain the audience" and "make money".

I won't blame Germany or the USA for declining to attack, certainly, but I do think it's a little unfortunate that the tournament structure makes it pretty likely that it will be a boring game.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby charliepanayi » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:13 pm UTC

I don't think you can blame the tournament structure here, the World Cup would be far less fun as a straight knockout. It's just the way the games in that group have panned out so far.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby ahammel » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:22 pm UTC

Yeah, I'm not saying that the tournament structure needs to be fixed or anything like that. I think it's quite a good solution, in fact (certainly compared to the badminton tournament of the last Olympics).

When it does generate a guaranteed snoozer, though, this is to be regretted.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Diadem » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:40 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:
Diadem wrote: Side note: As a chess player, it has always mystified me why so many football fans and players seem to think that prearranged draws are unfair. In chess this happens all the time and is completely normal.
Unless I'm mistaken, actually communicating with one another in advance to arrange a draw is against the rules. Nothing to stop both sides from playing into book draw lines once they're actually at the board, of course.

Not in chess. I've seen the scenario where two players sit down, immediately shake hands, and stand up again, played out plenty of times. Heck, I've done it one or two times. It usually happens in the last round of a tournament, when one player is a full point ahead of all the competition at the start of the last round. That player than just needs a draw to make sure of the first place. Often their opponent will be a much weaker player (the games between top contenders having already happened earlier in the tournament), who is more than happy with a draw.

This doesn't happen only in chess. It is normal in several other sports as well. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the right way, but it is interesting that an arranged draw is considered wrong in some sports, and completely normal in others.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby ahammel » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:59 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
ahammel wrote:
Diadem wrote: Side note: As a chess player, it has always mystified me why so many football fans and players seem to think that prearranged draws are unfair. In chess this happens all the time and is completely normal.
Unless I'm mistaken, actually communicating with one another in advance to arrange a draw is against the rules. Nothing to stop both sides from playing into book draw lines once they're actually at the board, of course.

Not in chess. I've seen the scenario where two players sit down, immediately shake hands, and stand up again, played out plenty of times. Heck, I've done it one or two times. It usually happens in the last round of a tournament, when one player is a full point ahead of all the competition at the start of the last round. That player than just needs a draw to make sure of the first place. Often their opponent will be a much weaker player (the games between top contenders having already happened earlier in the tournament), who is more than happy with a draw.
I thought it was usual to play out a few moves of a boring opening in this situation, but I haven't played chess in a while.

The situation I was thinking of was when Fisher accused the Soviet team of colluding to draw with one another in a tournament in order to prevent him from winning it.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby PolakoVoador » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:28 pm UTC

Neither of the teams seems to me as capable of pre-arranging the match, but obviously they will probably slow down as the match goes on.

But for today, some interesting matches. Chile x Netherlands, with the first place on the line, both will play hard to try and avoid Brazil in the next round.

Next, Croatia x Mexico, fighting for their lives in the World Cup should be really fun to watch.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:36 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:So yeah, that is going to be one boring game. Do you think they'll even bother to show up before signing off on a 0-0 draw?

While that would be the smart move, Klinsman said he wasn't going to communicate with Low before the match, and his comments can be summed up as "These crazy Americans are going to play for the win no matter what I tell them."

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby ahammel » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:48 pm UTC

With RvP suspended, the Netherlands will play without a 'van' in the side for the first time since 1996.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby PolakoVoador » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:54 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Diadem wrote:So yeah, that is going to be one boring game. Do you think they'll even bother to show up before signing off on a 0-0 draw?

While that would be the smart move, Klinsman said he wasn't going to communicate with Low before the match, and his comments can be summed up as "These crazy Americans are going to play for the win no matter what I tell them."


Smart, to what extent? Are you (you, random USA player) really sure Müller & Co. won't find a goal when you're not expecting, all the while Ghana is scoring 2x0 in Portugal? Maybe Klose wants that record all for himself, and wants it right now. So, playing to win might be advisable.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:23 pm UTC

Well, that's an inherent problem with the Trust Game. Also, Germany is likely through even with a loss, so they don't have as much incentive to draw as we do.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby charliepanayi » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:52 pm UTC

So we have two second round games confirmed:

Brazil v Chile
Netherlands v Mexico
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby PolakoVoador » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:24 am UTC

charliepanayi wrote:So we have two second round games confirmed:

Brazil v Chile
Netherlands v Mexico


Chile is a though bone to chew on. This is one of the best lineups Chile ever had, but I guess they're still the underdogs. Nevertheless, Brazil cannot afford mistakes with that fast Chilean attack players.

On the other match, Netherlands will probably prevail (I'm betting on them taking the Cup this year)

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Adacore » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:34 am UTC

I hope the USA get through, so in that respect I'd be quite happy with a draw. Honestly, I can easily see Portugal beating Ghana by a small goal margin in which case the Germany-USA result doesn't matter unless it's a blowout for the Germans.

ahammel wrote:
Diadem wrote:Not in chess. I've seen the scenario where two players sit down, immediately shake hands, and stand up again, played out plenty of times. Heck, I've done it one or two times. It usually happens in the last round of a tournament, when one player is a full point ahead of all the competition at the start of the last round. That player than just needs a draw to make sure of the first place. Often their opponent will be a much weaker player (the games between top contenders having already happened earlier in the tournament), who is more than happy with a draw.
I thought it was usual to play out a few moves of a boring opening in this situation, but I haven't played chess in a while.

I don't know about chess, but I've watched quite a few Magic: The Gathering tournament streams lately, and it's completely normal in those for players to agree to a draw without even shuffling their cards. It is also not uncommon to see a situation where a match is probably a favourable draw that gets both players through, but might be important for one of them to win, if some other results fall in just the right (or wrong) way, in which cases I've seen people play as slowly as possible, in the hope that they can just agree to the draw once some of the other games being played at the same time finish and the cases where a win is required are eliminated.

EDIT: Of the 23 countries on the mainland of the Americas, 11 were in the group stage of the World Cup; of those, 8 are >50% to be in the round of 16 (USA, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica and France), with two more (Ecuador and Uruguay) still having a reasonable chance.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Diadem » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:21 am UTC

ahammel wrote:With RvP suspended, the Netherlands will play without a 'van' in the side for the first time since 1996.

Does a "Van Der" not count as a "Van" in your book? Because the legendary Van Der Sar was the goalkeep in 1996 (though I do not know if he played every single game that year).

Heisenberg wrote:
Diadem wrote:So yeah, that is going to be one boring game. Do you think they'll even bother to show up before signing off on a 0-0 draw?

While that would be the smart move, Klinsman said he wasn't going to communicate with Low before the match, and his comments can be summed up as "These crazy Americans are going to play for the win no matter what I tell them."

Well, that's the image that team USA is trying to build for itself. Not afraid of anyone, always playing their own game. An image that fits the USA well. But a good team is always flexible. We will see though, we will see.

PolakoVoador wrote:Chile is a though bone to chew on. This is one of the best lineups Chile ever had, but I guess they're still the underdogs. Nevertheless, Brazil cannot afford mistakes with that fast Chilean attack players.

Don't forget that Chile has to defeat both Brazil and the FIFA. That's not easy. So far the referees have been siding with Brazil quite openly, so I fear Chile will face a difficult game. They do have an excellent team though, and Brazil has been somewhat disappointing, so who knows.

PolakoVoador wrote:On the other match, Netherlands will probably prevail (I'm betting on them taking the Cup this year)

The Netherlands definitely got the easy side of the knockout phase. If we defeat Chile we'll face Ivory Coast or Costa Rica, and after that most likely Argentina. meanwhile Brazil is sided with Germany, France and Uruguay / Italy. But historically the Dutch always finish 2nd, so there's that.

Adacore wrote:I hope the USA get through, so in that respect I'd be quite happy with a draw. Honestly, I can easily see Portugal beating Ghana by a small goal margin in which case the Germany-USA result doesn't matter unless it's a blowout for the Germans.

ahammel wrote:EDIT: Of the 23 countries on the mainland of the Americas, 11 were in the group stage of the World Cup; of those, 8 are >50% to be in the round of 16 (USA, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica and France), with two more (Ecuador and Uruguay) still having a reasonable chance.

You may want to check the position of France on a map. Other than that, yes, the Americas have 10 teams playing, which is quite a lot. North and South America together have 7 automatic spots, and they qualified 2 more teams via playoffs, and of course Brazil got in automatically.

Of those 10 teams 6 have already qualified for the round of 16 (Brazil, Mexico, Chile, but also Colombia, Costa Rica and Argentina). USA also has very good odds, and Uruguay has a good chance too (though below 50%, they need a win against Italy). Ecuador though seems quite unlikely. Switzerland is unlikely to lose against Honduras, which means Ecuador needs a win against France, which I don't see happening. Seven or eight teams in the last 16 is still quite good though. Better than Europe. We got 13 teams in the tournament of which only 4-6 will go through (9 is still theoretically possible. But especially Greece and Portugal seem a lost cause).

It's not really surprising. So far, South America has won 6/6 world cups hosted in South America, Europe has won 9/10 world cups hosted in Europe. The home advantage is apparently huge.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby gnutrino » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:23 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:You may want to check the position of France on a map.


I believe it's a reference to French Guiana which for weird french reasons the french consider to be part of France rather than a separate country under their control like a normal colonial power.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby charliepanayi » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:29 pm UTC

People really should can the conspiracy theories. Brazil are hardly the only team to benefit from poor officiating so far - in fact the officiating in general has been very poor with a number of big errors/penalties not awarded, but the football has been so entertaining it's been easy to overlook for the most part.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby ahammel » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:02 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
ahammel wrote:With RvP suspended, the Netherlands will play without a 'van' in the side for the first time since 1996.

Does a "Van Der" not count as a "Van" in your book? Because the legendary Van Der Sar was the goalkeep in 1996 (though I do not know if he played every single game that year).
He was apparently left out of a friendly with China that year.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby charliepanayi » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:30 pm UTC

My prediction that Italy would go out in the group stage was correct! And Suarez decided to give the World Cup some much needed scandal. Oh dear.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby ahammel » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:38 pm UTC

Three strikes and you're a fucking moron. 50 match ban, you reckon? 100?
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:08 pm UTC

Assault. Lock him up.

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby charliepanayi » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:37 pm UTC

Give him a medal for Services to Twitter.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Grop » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:45 pm UTC

Ah ah, one day I got out of a rugby field far assaulting someone. I thought he had bitten my hand, but I actually hit the wrong guy (who didn't hate me too much after seeing teeth marks on my hand).

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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:46 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Assault. Lock him up.

Has that actually ever happened to a footballer for on-pitch behaviour?
I've seen far worse on the pitch not go hugely punished.
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Re: Actual (Association) Football Talk.

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:52 pm UTC

Sure, but this is using a part of your body that should not be used in the course of a match. This isn't like he might've been kicking the ball and kicked a player instead. This is more like grabbing a chopstick out of his sock and stabbing a guy. WTF? Where did that come from?


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