LSD helps cure alcoholics

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addams
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby addams » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:47 am UTC

I am not spoiling for a fight.
Spoiler:
I was a way from the internet and I was thinking about this Thread.

AA is a Religion. I do not want to upset any one, but; Really?

Let us look at the Facts:
AA is a Religion; AA is a mighty fine Religion, too.
Proof: Let us keep this simple.

1. They have a Big Book and several Little Books.
(I used to be 'into' old books. I had a copy of the first one. It was cool.)

2. They have framework and structure provided by the Twelve Steps. Anywhere on the Planet those steps will work as intended by the Walkers of the Path.
(They are cool steps. I did them one time. Just, for fun. That was a long time ago. I don't remember them by heart. I may benefit from doing them, again. I try on religions the way other people try on clothes.)

3. AA provides companionship with shared Goals.
3. a) The Goals are Sane and Sober living; I think. Maybe; Something like that.

4. AA has Prayers. I know they do. I memorized a few of them. The Serenity One is like the Hale Mary to AA people and so much better than the Hale Mary. It is more useful.

Let me see if I can Remember it:

God; Grant me the Courage to change the things that I can change.

God; Grant me the Peace to accept the things that I can not change.

God; Grant me the Wisdom to know the difference between what I can change and what I can not change.
**********************************************************************************************************************
Is it any wonder People drink? Yuck. I did for a while. I still do from time to time. When the going gets tough it is nice to have a little food and a beer with a companion on the Journey of Life.

There is nothing wrong with having a good Religion to fall back on. It is great to have other people that share the same Framework. The Framework gives people a language to express themselves with. The same Framework is used by other people to understand what is being expressed. Even with a good Framework a great deal gets lost in translation.

Higher Power; God; Jesus; The Prophet; Something out side of ourselves that will help us restore sanity to our lives.

Well; I could argue the Point; But; What would be the point? Does it move you toward a Content and Noble life or away from Joy and Harmony?

It seems to me that Religion is a human construct that allows members of Intellectual Packs to form. Packs are a good thing for the Individuals within the Pack.

'In Group' and 'Out Group', Psychology for three internet pages and then we can all wander off shaking our heads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group%E ... group_bias

Have you ever dabbled in the Monastic Life? Tons of fun, if, and only if.

So; There.

And; I still think AA is a mighty fine Religion And; AA is not in conflict with any other Religion that is worth bothering with.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Jave D
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Jave D » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:48 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:Also, how have you met Atheist AAers? The atheists I knew that were in there were run out pretty quick after they were run out pretty quick. I assume they are in their incognito, or part of a group that bucks official AA doctrine?


Yes I have. As I think I've said, I've met atheist, pagan, Muslim, Jewish, Christian and Hindu AAers. The only time I've ever seen anyone "run out" of an AA meeting or group is when he was being verbally abusive and threatening violence. Never seen anyone get "run out" for their theological beliefs.

As far as being a religion. Well, I might be wasting my time here, but:

Spoiler:
addams wrote:1. They have a Big Book and several Little Books.
(I used to be 'into' old books. I had a copy of the first one. It was cool.)


Psychiatry has a big book too (the DSM). Is psychiatry a religion? Well, according to some people yes it is, but that's pretty weak reasoning there in both cases.

2. They have framework and structure provided by the Twelve Steps. Anywhere on the Planet those steps will work as intended by the Walkers of the Path.
(They are cool steps. I did them one time. Just, for fun. That was a long time ago. I don't remember them by heart. I may benefit from doing them, again. I try on religions the way other people try on clothes.)


The steps are just a process of recovery from alcoholism. That's like saying science is a religion too since it has 'framework and structure' based on the scientific method. Again of course, some people do say science is a religion too. But calling something a religion does not make it so.

3. AA provides companionship with shared Goals.


So does my sexual relationship with this girl I know! And no one I know calls that a religion.

4. AA has Prayers. I know they do. I memorized a few of them. The Serenity One is like the Hale Mary to AA people and so much better than the Hale Mary. It is more useful.

Let me see if I can Remember it:

God; Grant me the Courage to change the things that I can change.

God; Grant me the Peace to accept the things that I can not change.

God; Grant me the Wisdom to know the difference between what I can change and what I can not change.


Prayer is recognized as a helpful thing, but it's not like AA invented that particular prayer. Some meetings say the Lord's Prayer instead, or in addition to. Some meetings don't say any prayers at all. Some meetings focus on meditation; instead, or in addition to. And some meetings don't focus on either prayer or meditation. The point is only that prayer and meditation is recognized as helpful in the recovery process, and that recognition is not the equivalent of becoming a religion. Again according to the definition of religion as I cited earlier, AA does not qualify. The big book is not scripture; there is no clergy; there is no universal adoption of a specific deity or higher power; there are no churches; there is no mythology, no cosmology, no theology, no religious law, no prophets; there is no excommunication nor 'membership.'

I mean if you want to call it a religion, or a cult, or whatever, obviously you are free to do so, but as an argument is far from convincing and based on a rather loose definition which I do not share.


It's not a religion.

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Nylonathatep
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Nylonathatep » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:41 pm UTC

LSD helps cure Alcoholics, but what helps cure LSD induced brain damage and Psychosis?

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby ahammel » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:52 pm UTC

Nylonathatep wrote:LSD helps cure Alcoholics, but what helps cure LSD induced brain damage and Psychosis?

There is very little evidence that LSD causes significant brain damage. Psychosis is a rare side effect, and can be treated with antispychotics. Bad drug interactions though, so it's inadvisible to self-medicate. Really, it's much less bad for you than, say, drinking.

Source.
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby PossibleSloth » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:20 pm UTC

Is it just me or are the dosages of "between 210 and 800 micrograms" pretty high for a single dose of LSD? The paper ahammel linked to suggested that most people get the full psychological effect from 100-200 µg. I was thinking maybe the patients were getting a dose that would be too small for the full hallucinogenic effects, but it sounds like they would have been tripping balls.
Nylonathatep wrote:LSD helps cure Alcoholics, but what helps cure LSD induced brain damage and Psychosis?

From what I remember, LSD usually only causes Psychosis in people already at risk for this illness and I don't know of any evidence that it causes brain damage. Heavy alcohol consumption, on the other hand, has been linked to brain lesions, increased risk of stroke, cardiomyopathy, liver disease, pancreatitis, etc. If it were a choice between the two, I know which one I'd pick.

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Jave D » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:25 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:Really, it's much less bad for you than, say, drinking.


Yeah, but kinda in the way that robbing is better than raping.

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Puppyclaws » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:37 pm UTC

Jave D wrote:
ahammel wrote:Really, it's much less bad for you than, say, drinking.


Yeah, but kinda in the way that robbing is better than raping.


That is some pretty harsh judgment there! There is nothing wrong with a normal person taking LSD and/or drinking in controlled amounts and circumstances.

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Griffin » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:11 pm UTC

Yeah, think of it more like sharing as opposed to sex. ;)

Sure, you can do sex wrong, badly badly wrong, and get addicted to it, and screw other people over due to your lack of self control...

But really, the damage from sharing too much is much more limited in comparison. :P
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Jave D » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:00 pm UTC

Puppyclaws wrote:
Jave D wrote:
ahammel wrote:Really, it's much less bad for you than, say, drinking.


Yeah, but kinda in the way that robbing is better than raping.


That is some pretty harsh judgment there! There is nothing wrong with a normal person taking LSD and/or drinking in controlled amounts and circumstances.


I was referring it in the context of the discussion; alcoholics are not "normal persons" when it comes to mind altering substances. For them it is like committing rape, or theft... of their own spiritual, emotional and mental well-being, that is.

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Griffin » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:33 pm UTC

And, again, not all alcoholics are the same. Like most "diseases", you can have people with identical symptoms and wildly different underlying causes, and thus treatments and risks.

Because, coming back around to the OP,
I was referring it in the context of the discussion; alcoholics are not "normal persons" when it comes to mind altering substances. For them it is like committing rape, or theft... of their own spiritual, emotional and mental well-being, that is.

Science doesn't agree with the second part, and the first part is the whole point.
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Jave D » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:45 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:And, again, not all alcoholics are the same. Like most "diseases", you can have people with identical symptoms and wildly different underlying causes, and thus treatments and risks.

Because, coming back around to the OP,
I was referring it in the context of the discussion; alcoholics are not "normal persons" when it comes to mind altering substances. For them it is like committing rape, or theft... of their own spiritual, emotional and mental well-being, that is.

Science doesn't agree with the second part, and the first part is the whole point.


I never said alcoholics are ALL THE SAME. But they have the same disease. And it is a disease, not a "disease."

What do you mean when you say "science doesn't agree" with my analogy? It's an analogy. I wasn't aware that science had even considered my analogy. I guess I just don't read the latest journals?

But perhaps you meant that there's nothing emotionally or mentally damaging about alcoholism?

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Griffin » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:38 am UTC

But perhaps you meant that there's nothing emotionally or mentally damaging about alcoholism?

And perhaps you should stop making stupid assumptions. The whole point of the study is that it, LSD, the thing you were referring to in your quote, helps - it improves their emotional and mental wellbeing. I was responding to the not an analogy bit. You insist in conflating the two, and yet I've met very few recovering alcoholics who saw caffeine as a problem, and most were perfectly fine with smoking as well. Sure, these aren't SUPER mind-altering, but they are mind-altering. That's the whole reason people seek them out.

And I apologise - the quotes in that sentence were explicitly referring to the folly of treating it as a single disease, rather than treating it as a disease at all. If we're talking cures and treatments we should discuss them in terms of epidemiology, rather than broad classes of symptoms like alcoholism.
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby addams » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:07 am UTC

ahammel wrote:
Nylonathatep wrote:LSD helps cure Alcoholics, but what helps cure LSD induced brain damage and Psychosis?

There is very little evidence that LSD causes significant brain damage. Psychosis is a rare side effect, and can be treated with antispychotics. Bad drug interactions though, so it's inadvisible to self-medicate. Really, it's much less bad for you than, say, drinking.

Source.


The Brits used LSD to treat psychosis and chronic depression. As I remember it, the treatment was fairly successful. People that were living lives that were nightmarish were given LSD in familiar, stable and safe environments. There was kind and professional supervision.

Hey! I found it!
http://www.ukcia.org/research/cunion/cu48.htm
"Hospitals with the greatest experience reported relatively few adverse reactions; at Marlborough Day Hospital, for example, 6,522 LSD sessions and 50 psilocybin sessions were given to 507 patients with no suicides, no serious suicide attempts, no accidents, and only four psychotic reactions."

Well; That is impressive. Nearly 13 trips per person. It is a wonder they did not have more trouble than they did.

It is so stupid that LSD can not be used by professionals to help people that want help. Teenagers use it without supervision; Not knowing where the drug came from or if it is really LSD or not.
It seems that it can not be made legally, anywhere. So, stupid.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Griffin » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:06 pm UTC

MDMA for the longest time showed even more potential for psychiatric treatment benefits - and then it became a street drug, and research in that direction was halted. It's still actually USED in psychiatric and therapeutic treatments across the states, but it's kept very very quiet.
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby nitePhyyre » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:07 pm UTC

pollywog wrote:How many arguments against prohibition do there need to be before they (THEY!) just say "Fuck it, you can have them".
Only one. The argument that the politicians instigating the War on Drugs can get more money and power by ending prohibition. But good luck with that.

Jave D wrote:I think it's better to approach it that way then to approach it as if there were a "cure," namely because there isn't, to my knowledge, any such "cure" to this particular chronic disease.
So it is impossible to cure and this cure can't be a cure because to your knowledge there isn't already a cure. Logic: ure doin it rong.

More imporantly, screw LSD. Ibogaine is where its at. It doesn't just cure alcoholism, it cures all the things.
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Jave D » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:02 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
Jave D wrote:I think it's better to approach it that way then to approach it as if there were a "cure," namely because there isn't, to my knowledge, any such "cure" to this particular chronic disease.
So it is impossible to cure and this cure can't be a cure because to your knowledge there isn't already a cure. Logic: ure doin it rong.


I smell burning straw... and that's no olfactory hallucination brought about by LSD.

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby addams » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:48 pm UTC

Jave D wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:
Jave D wrote:I think it's better to approach it that way then to approach it as if there were a "cure," namely because there isn't, to my knowledge, any such "cure" to this particular chronic disease.
So it is impossible to cure and this cure can't be a cure because to your knowledge there isn't already a cure. Logic: ure doin it rong.


I smell burning straw... and that's no olfactory hallucination brought about by LSD.


Many Human beings need all kinds of help. There should be no where we will not go for one another.
LSD? Well; O.K.
That Logaine stuff? Never tried it. Don't want to. But; Fuck! Will it help us all get along better?
Alcoholics have a hard battle to fight. To live sane and sober lives is hard. Crazy, drunk is a hard habit to break.

We are not allowed to take a sample of Alcoholics and do a random study. Are we? Of course; They must all be volunteers. And; They must all think that they are being given LSD. That is stressful. Just the thought is stressful.

It must be a double blind. Some of the teams will have so much fun. Others will be playing cards.

Each person in both groups must have a kind and competent professional with them at all times. So; It is best that a relationship has developed over a number of days or weeks before the trial.

I think that it is such a wonderful idea! Oh, How much I would like to do that!? A lot.
There must be sets of notes that are taken at regular intervals. By both the subject and their Nanny. I want to be one of the Nannies.

Then; We would need follow upquestionnaires. Jeeze. It could take days to design the project.

If, you keep bringing the subject up, then, you will keep getting the same responds from me.

Yes! Where are people sane enough for this? Can I go there?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Jplus » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:32 am UTC

Seriously, that sounds like a really good idea.
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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby addams » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:59 am UTC

Jplus wrote:Seriously, that sounds like a really good idea.


Thank you. Want to design a project?

ech.
I could not do it all alone, what would be the point?
I can not do it with only the internet. I need paper.

I'm old. I like paper.

There are loads of wheels laying around. Questionnaires. Some very interesting ones. I have no idea where they are.

Well being questions. Level of consciousness questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness
"Anything that we are aware of at a given moment forms part of our consciousness, making conscious experience at once the most familiar and most mysterious aspect of our lives."

A Lit review of the subject would uncover the questionnaires.
What a funny project. The old questionnaires would have to be tested for change in culture and cultural bias and all kinds of weird stuff. The old ones may be useless.

What a waste of time.
Spoiler:
Remember the troops on LSD? So, funny. I think that giving LSD to people with live amo is a bad idea. (Shrug.) Those wild and crazy Brits.

"With one man climbing a tree to feed the birds the unit commander surrendered control before collapsing in laughter."
If, that is a Monty Python skit, it is a good one.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby Jplus » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

addams wrote:Thank you. Want to design a project?

I'd love to! Alas, there are too many things I'd want to do and too little time.

If somebody decided to start such a project in my neighbourhood I'd definitely join, though.
"There are only two hard problems in computer science: cache coherence, naming things, and off-by-one errors." (Phil Karlton and Leon Bambrick)

coding and xkcd combined

(Julian/Julian's)

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Re: LSD helps cure alcoholics

Postby addams » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:10 pm UTC

Jplus wrote:
addams wrote:Thank you. Want to design a project?

I'd love to! Alas, there are too many things I'd want to do and too little time.

If somebody decided to start such a project in my neighbourhood I'd definitely join, though.

I hear Sesame Street in my head. "The people you meet in your neighborhood; In your Neighborhood; In your Neighborhood. The people that you meet in your neighborhood. The people that you meet each day"
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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