Police misbehavior thread

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:08 pm UTC

So if, say, the Westboro Baptist Church decides to have a sit in protest and blocks the entrance to a cemetery, how should the police remove them?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:10 pm UTC

Non violently. Just like they're protesting.

I mean, I *want* to kick 'em in the nuts, but that's not really the point. Or mature.

EDIT: Are you joking? Are you asking if it's acceptable to pepper spray or tase protestors who are staging a sit in?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:13 pm UTC

As a first resort? Absolutely not. But if getting your hands dirty and grabbing them doesn't work? How do you suggest they be moved?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby oxoiron » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:16 pm UTC

If we are going to continue down this road, then I will point out that virtually anything can be an acid or base under the right conditions. You just have to find a sufficiently strong base or acid to complement your material of choice (I think we had this discussion a few years ago, but I can't be bothered to search for it right now).

As far as capsaicin goes, I would guess that under human biological conditions, this molecule is more likely to act as a base than an acid. In any case, it will be quite weak, whether acting as an acid or base. And it doesn't actually burn you, it just tricks your body into acting as if it has been burned by binding to a neural receptor.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:21 pm UTC

oxoiron wrote:As far as capsaicin goes, I would guess that under human biological conditions, this molecule is more likely to act as a base than an acid.
Look at that alcohol backed by a resonant benzene though! I'd totally take that as a proton donor! The wiki lists most of the compounds involved as acids, so, meh.
oxoiron wrote: And it doesn't actually burn you, it just trickses your body into acting as if it has been burned by binding to a neural receptor.
But this is the more relavent thing; pepper spray isn't caustic, it's not causing tissue damage, it's just a really good fit for the receptors for heat, and induces a pretty strong inflammation response
CorruptUser wrote:As a first resort? Absolutely not. But if getting your hands dirty and grabbing them doesn't work? How do you suggest they be moved?
If physically removing them from the premises isn't working, then you can use compliance techniques. The least violent of which is tasing, which stops causing pain after it is administered (remember, we had this discussion like, two weeks ago). Pepper spray is a step up, I would say, as the effects linger. I don't see why physically removing them wouldn't work though.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:31 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Non violently. Just like they're protesting.

I mean, I *want* to kick 'em in the nuts, but that's not really the point. Or mature.

EDIT: Are you joking? Are you asking if it's acceptable to pepper spray or tase protestors who are staging a sit in?


This. I mean, I totally understand the desire to engage in violence with such people, I do. They're horrible people. However, rights are rights, and minimizing violence where practical is important. So yeah, sending death threats is not ok. Shooting when you have options to solve the problem that are better than shooting is not logical. Don't use pepper spray all willy nilly.

There is a significant difference between using force to halt or prevent imminent violence and using force as a compliance tool. The former is necessary to some degree, but the latter is MUCH scarier and prone to abuse. A protest can be dispersed without pepper spray. You use your words. If they are breaking a law, and words are insufficient, that's what arresting is for. If no law is being broken...don't initiate violence. Yes, if they are resisting arrest, a certain degree of force may be necessary. Chasing down someone running away is generally appropriate. However, again, minimize the shit out of this.

The pepper spray incident is, justifiable or not, certainly a lot less terrible than shooting a kid for no reason other than that his toy looked as if it might have been a weapon. I'm familiar with the toy in question. If you can't tell it's a toy, you shouldn't be a cop.

That said, I am still doubtful on the pepper spray. I'm sure pepper spray was faster and easier, but justifying violence just because it's easier for the person committing it is problematic.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:39 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:As a first resort? Absolutely not. But if getting your hands dirty and grabbing them doesn't work? How do you suggest they be moved?
If physically removing them from the premises isn't working, then you can use compliance techniques. The least violent of which is tasing, which stops causing pain after it is administered (remember, we had this discussion like, two weeks ago). Pepper spray is a step up, I would say, as the effects linger. I don't see why physically removing them wouldn't work though.


They had locked arms specifically to prevent themselves from simply being dragged away. As for pepper spray vs taser, tasers can kill if you have a heart condition. Pepper spray is less lethal and damaging, even if it hurts more.

Also, can you provide a link to the pepper spray vs taser argument?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bentheimmigrant » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:04 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:If the officer was so knowledgeable about "assault weapons", he would have known that an AK-47 is not particularly controllable at pistol range.

What does that even mean?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:16 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:They had locked arms specifically to prevent themselves from simply being dragged away.
You're mincing situations here, which is making me hesitant to give any concrete 'WWID' for the situation, but in the case of a bunch of students staging a sit in on a university lawn, if they've prevented themselves from being physically removed, I say you just let them sit there.

If you're talking about, say, the WBC linking arms over an actual gravesite, then you arrest them, physically removing them from one another (trying to minimize damage, but at that point, I have no idea what's allowable), and arrest them.

CorruptUser wrote:As for pepper spray vs taser, tasers can kill if you have a heart condition.
Sure, tasers and pepper spray have a non-zero risk associated with them. I feel this is kind of a silly argument when comparing against, you know, guns.

CorruptUser wrote:Also, can you provide a link to the pepper spray vs taser argument?
The guns for the blind thread.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:27 pm UTC

As to the kid with the fake gun. Yes it was a dumb idea on the kids part. No the cops shouldn't have shot him. Yes, kids his age have recently murdered people. No, it's not reasonable to expect yelling "drop your weapon" to result in the suspect immediately comprehending that you're ordering him to drop a weapon which he may or may not be carrying, and dropping his "weapon". If I heard random yelling behind me I'd turn to see what's going on, too. I'm sure he figured it out after he got shot, but by then it was too late; he was already fatally wounded.

Do I understand why the cop shot him? Of course I do, he was scared for his life. What he did was still some form of manslaughter or murder. Not too different from Oscar Pistorius's story of events when he killed his girlfriend. Yes, he was scared. No, that doesn't mean it's okay to kill people willy-nilly.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:34 pm UTC

Does anyone else find it strange that peacekeeping troops in war zones have stricter rules of engagement than police officers in suburbia?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:46 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Does anyone else find it strange that peacekeeping troops in war zones have stricter rules of engagement than police officers in suburbia?

Well, the consequences of getting it wrong in a war zone are much worse. A few people will be angry at the police for this incident but ultimately do nothing about it. In a war zone, you could cause all sorts of problems.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:03 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So if, say, the Westboro Baptist Church decides to have a sit in protest and blocks the entrance to a cemetery, how should the police remove them?

Hire some gay strippers. That should do the trick quickly enough. /justkiddingIpromise

Izawwlgood wrote:
oxoiron wrote: And it doesn't actually burn you, it just trickses your body into acting as if it has been burned by binding to a neural receptor.
But this is the more relavent thing; pepper spray isn't caustic, it's not causing tissue damage, it's just a really good fit for the receptors for heat, and induces a pretty strong inflammation response....

Which can kill.

Izawwlgood wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:As a first resort? Absolutely not. But if getting your hands dirty and grabbing them doesn't work? How do you suggest they be moved?
If physically removing them from the premises isn't working, then you can use compliance techniques.

Using potentially deadly (granted, it's rare, but the risk is still very real) chemicals or electric shocks to force someone into following your orders seems rather inhumane. Nonviolence should not be met with violence. Unless a police officer is physically attacked in the course of their ordinary duty (which can certainly include physically separating people in order to facilitate an arrest), violent attack is not warranted.

Sure, people can lock arms. But unless these people are incredibly ripped, it's not going to take more than two or three officers to pull them apart. This assumes that they aren't actively resisting.

bentheimmigrant wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:If the officer was so knowledgeable about "assault weapons", he would have known that an AK-47 is not particularly controllable at pistol range.

What does that even mean?

An AK47 fires a 7.62mm full-size rifle round (unlike the smaller 5.56 of an M16). At pistol range (which, obviously, they were within), a full-size rifle's kick and muzzle rize make it very difficult to control beyond the first shot. It's not like the movies, where fully-automatic rifle fire from the hip can be controlled with one hand.

Роберт wrote: No, it's not reasonable to expect yelling "drop your weapon" to result in the suspect immediately comprehending that you're ordering him to drop a weapon which he may or may not be carrying, and dropping his "weapon". If I heard random yelling behind me I'd turn to see what's going on, too. I'm sure he figured it out after he got shot, but by then it was too late; he was already fatally wounded.

At which point they continued to order him to move away from his "weapon". I'm surprised they didn't keep shooting him for his continued failure to obey.

Роберт wrote:
Thesh wrote:Does anyone else find it strange that peacekeeping troops in war zones have stricter rules of engagement than police officers in suburbia?

Well, the consequences of getting it wrong in a war zone are much worse. A few people will be angry at the police for this incident but ultimately do nothing about it. In a war zone, you could cause all sorts of problems.

This....I'm not sure about. In a war zone, the people you're fighting with are actually your enemies.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:10 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:This....I'm not sure about. In a war zone, the people you're fighting with are actually your enemies.

Yeah, but there's international political issues, internal political issues, enemy recruiting numbers, your recruiting numbers, etc. If you horrify and antagonize the local population when there's a war going on, you may well cause people to join your enemies or whatever.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bentheimmigrant » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:36 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:If the officer was so knowledgeable about "assault weapons", he would have known that an AK-47 is not particularly controllable at pistol range.

What does that even mean?

An AK47 fires a 7.62mm full-size rifle round (unlike the smaller 5.56 of an M16). At pistol range (which, obviously, they were within), a full-size rifle's kick and muzzle rize make it very difficult to control beyond the first shot. It's not like the movies, where fully-automatic rifle fire from the hip can be controlled with one hand.

OK, so why should this knowledge have stopped the officer from firing if he believed it to be a real gun? He was in fear of the first shot, not the seventh.

At pistol range an AK is no harder to control than at longer range. The kick and muzzle rise are the same because physics doesn't care how far away your target is. In fact with the closer distance the angles make less of a difference. Additionally, if he knew about assault rifles he's have much more reason to expect it to be semi-automatic, as they're much easier and cheaper to obtain.

By all means, get on the officer for not understanding open carry laws, assuming the worst, taking action that caused the kid to turn around, and then being surprised when the kid turned around... but don't spout nonsense about how he shouldn't have feared 8g of metal flying at 700 m/s because of the kick that happens after it's fired.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:14 pm UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:At pistol range an AK is no harder to control than at longer range. The kick and muzzle rise are the same because physics doesn't care how far away your target is. In fact with the closer distance the angles make less of a difference.

I suppose I was thinking more in terms of recovery time for a given angle of kick. At or beyond the extremity of pistol range, the distance gives the rifle shooter more time to compensate for kick and recoil between shots. At much closer range, you're going to be hit by pistol fire before you've recovered from squeezing off the first couple of shots.

I guess that if I'm fairly close to someone, I'm going to feel more immediately threatened if he's turning around with a pistol in his hands than if he's turning around with a rifle. Granted, a bullet from a rifle is usually going to do more damage, but firing position for a rifle is going to be much more obvious than for a pistol. Plus, the odds that someone is carrying a rifle in hand but not intending to use it are much better than someone who is carrying a pistol in hand but not intending to use it. It's the same reason that a person carrying an open knife is much more suspicious than someone carrying a sword, even if the sword draws more attention.

That's why the big long excuse about the AK47 just seems phony. He would have been more justified (well, not justified, but at least less unjustified) in feeling threatened if it had been a pistol, because it makes less sense for a person carrying a pistol to hold it in their hands unless they're about to use it.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:17 pm UTC

Yeah, the stuff about rifles effectiveness in close range is silly, but it's true that carrying a rifle in your hands is much less and indication of a plan to use it as carrying a handgun. You'll note the kid in question wasn't carrying his handgun in hand.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:23 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:....it's true that carrying a rifle in your hands is much less and indication of a plan to use it as carrying a handgun. You'll note the kid in question wasn't carrying his handgun in hand.

Yep. This would be a "regrettable tragedy" if the kid had been carrying a toy handgun in both hands, braced-firing style, and had been pointing it at cars/houses/people as he walked down the street, then whipped around with it raised when the cops shouted at him.

As it stands, this isn't a regrettable tragedy; this is (as I mentioned before) an extrajudicial killing. Of a barely-teenage child by a paranoid cop trained to shoot first and ask questions later.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:57 pm UTC

Well, yeah. I mean, it's not like the police are expected to risk their LIVES in the daily course of their jobs.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:02 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Well, yeah. I mean, it's not like the police are expected to risk their LIVES in the daily course of their jobs.

I confess I'm not entirely sure how to interpret this statement.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:10 pm UTC

Well, the cop had to go through the potential thought process of:

"Chance the kid has a gun... maybe 1%. I should shoot him the instant he disobeys me, otherwise I might be forced to accept a 1% risk of possibly being shot by a small child who would be surely unable to accurately aim a fully automatic weapon, and I would only be protected by my bullet proof vest. The 99% chance he's a kid with a toy gun is just too unlikely."

He lowered his chance of encountering danger from "exceedingly slim" to "none", and the only tradeoff was some dead civilians. And he thought that was fine.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby oxoiron » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:24 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:He lowered his chance of encountering danger from "exceedingly slim" to "none", and the only tradeoff was some dead civilians. And he thought that was fine.
You don't know that any of that is true.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Red Hal » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:41 pm UTC

All I know is a 13 year old child is dead, shot by two adults. That's what needs to stop.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:44 pm UTC

Hmmm. It's a complex situation and I'm making assumptions about facts and intent? I can't see how that's relevant to the topic at all.

I'm just trying to figure out why the police officer would have opened fire on a child carrying a gun, when in almost positive they are trained to, you know, be peace officers. This is the only one I can even remotely equate to a rational mind.

And I'm defining rational very loosely.

Thank you, Hal.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:59 pm UTC

Which is why I think the officers should lose a weeks pay no matter how justified.

'Hmm, there's a 1% chance it's a real gun, a 25% chance if real that he will use it on me, a 20% chance Id be hit before I could take him down, and a 20% chance of permanent injury. Is this 1 in 10000 chance worth a week's pay?'

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:04 pm UTC

What Hal said, so much more than any other observation or conjecture or speculation.

The problem didn't start when the cop started shooting; the problem started when the cop pulled up and took cover behind his door with his gun out. Granted, open carry is not legal in California, but that should probably factor into a presumption that a kid in a hoodie carrying a plastic gun in his left hand isn't breaking any laws.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:05 pm UTC

... You think law enforcement officers should be fined $1000 for killing kids?

Amazingly, that might be the most effective deterrent.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:21 pm UTC

It's sad because it's true. I'd like it to be a year's salary but there are times when it's very justified, and it's kind of not fair that the cop with the toughest beat gets the least pay as a result, plus poor cops are easily corruptible cops. But a week's pay is enough to be a stinging amount of doubt without risk of putting someone into so much financial strife that the mafia could offer to help him with his mortgage payments.

I'm mostly afraid of a society that discovers it's much cheaper to have street executions than lengthy criminal trials. That's the problem with high burden of proof; it's expensive. Forensics and experts and so forth cost lots of money, money that the tax base may not be able to support. And generally, the areas with the most crime have the worst tax bases. People want their cake and to eat it too, and if a dead kid can be worth millions to the city...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:26 am UTC

More of an accident than anything else.

In Chino, California, the police went to an elementary school to show off police stuff (for some reason). One of the kids playing touchy-feely with the motorcycle pulled the trigger on an assault weapon. There was a round in the chamber and it fired. The bullet missed everyone, but it scared a bunch of people.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20131024/us-school-gun-accident/?utm_hp_ref=technology&ir=technology

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:42 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Does anyone else find it strange that peacekeeping troops in war zones have stricter rules of engagement than police officers in suburbia?

If it looks like a war zone and it sounds like a war zone and the fear, the corruption, and deaths are real;
Then it might be a War Zone.

One of those foggy gray Wars that goes undeclared.
Well??

Peacekeepers have a ton of rules that protect other people.
That makes sense.

It seems The Men in Blue have a few rules, too.
Those rules function to protect and serve That Uniform.

That Uniform is pretty darned common.
That Uniform may not be on the endangered species list.

Common Ruby Throated Humperdinks and the Common Blue Coated....[ ] fill in the blank.


Paul in Saudi wrote:More of an accident than anything else.

In Chino, California, the police went to an elementary school to show off police stuff (for some reason). One of the kids playing touchy-feely with the motorcycle pulled the trigger on an assault weapon. There was a round in the chamber and it fired. The bullet missed everyone, but it scared a bunch of people.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20131024/us-school-gun-accident/?utm_hp_ref=technology&ir=technology

That's not misbehavior.
That is the other thing.

Fucking Monkeys are always touching shit!

Of course, no weapon should be 'battle ready' during a demonstration to children.
Children are not all polite and well behaved.

Sometimes I long for the days when that little bastard would catch Hell for touching a thing that belongs to an authority figure.
Who the fuck does that little jerk think he is?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Red Hal » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:44 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
I'm mostly afraid of a society that discovers it's much cheaper to have street executions than lengthy criminal trials. That's the problem with high burden of proof; it's expensive.


That is absolutely terrifying. And doing something about it would be a better use of politicians' time than, say, trying to stop poor people from getting medicine or blowing up kids in other countries with radio-controlled planes.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:56 am UTC

I think if it got too bad, the private prison lobby would step in and demand action,
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:06 am UTC

Law enforcement, by definition, carries a high rate of risk, both to the public and to the officers. Eighty five officers have died in the line of duty to date this year. So fear of death by violence for law enforcement, here in the US is a reasonable fear. We have a culture that glorifies violence, through movies and games. And add to that the proliferation on guns through society as a whole, and this is the result. The surprise to me is that the death rate is so low. Here are some stats from the CDC.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby apsara » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:23 am UTC

They did recently rule that cops can strip search anybody taken into custody with no reason or charges filed so they may not be the most reliable people to be making such decisions.some cops are following rules and regulations.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bentheimmigrant » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:55 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Eighty five officers have died in the line of duty to date this year. So fear of death by violence for law enforcement, here in the US is a reasonable fear.


Let's break this down...

85 (84 by this site) have died, but only 26 by intentional gunfire - if you wish you may add 1 stabbing, 1 bomb, and 4 vehicular assaults. But your conclusion of this being "a reasonable fear" is based on the 85, which includes heart attacks and accidents and such.

So let's extrapolate that 26 up to 32 for the year... Apparently there are 794,300 police officers in the US. So there are about 4 shooting deaths per 100,000 police officers per year. The number for the general population in the USA, is 3.0. So they are 33% more likely than the general population. That is not a huge increase on a fairly small risk. In fact, more than half of the individual states have higher gun homicide rates than that.
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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:21 pm UTC

That number doesn't include those killed while off duty. The 3 per 100,000 is for all day every day, not 8 hrs during second shift M-F. Not to mention that police officers tend to be larger and healthier than the general public, meaning more likely to survive a gunshot.

Spambot5546
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:22 pm UTC

A question I think that's worth asking is how much higher that number would be if police weren't taught to take as many precautions as they do.
"It is bitter – bitter", he answered,
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."

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davidstarlingm
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:35 pm UTC

According to the preliminary coroner's report (just released), the boy had seven entry wounds and four exit wounds. Two of the wounds were fatal; three of the seven slugs were recovered from the body. Eight rounds were fired, meaning that the single veteran officer who opened fire was close enough to only miss once.

The timeline released by the sheriff's office indicates that fewer than ten seconds passed between the officers' first report of a suspicious person and the last shot being fired. Assuming that the deputy was able to fire two rounds per second, and it took at least four seconds to stop the car, get out, and take a "defensive" stance, that leaves less than two seconds for the officer to shout at him.

There's no way to describe this as anything other than a drive-up shooting. The boy was gunned down before he had a chance to do or say anything, just like the eyewitnesses said.
Last edited by davidstarlingm on Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

morriswalters
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:38 pm UTC

How many jobs in the civilian sector have a risk of death by gunfire related directly to their jobs? This fear doesn't give them a reason to shoot children, but it does give them reason to fear being shot. The risk to a child is greater from other children and from themselves when firearms are concerned. The police aren't killing mass numbers of children. It's senseless for the child who died to be shot by police. But as long as police carry guns the risk will exist.

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davidstarlingm
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:51 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:How many jobs in the civilian sector have a risk of death by gunfire related directly to their jobs?

Convenience store clerks, bank tellers, bartenders, liquor store cashiers, pawn shop employees, armored car drivers, security guards, pizza delivery drivers.


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