Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:17 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote: despite having a 37% lower chance of being found with contraband.)

Could you give the cite for that?

Because if it's the one I'm thinking of it had the unfortunate property of basing their figures on self reporting. ie: did the police stop you? "yes" did they find anything on you? "no, of course not"

This is relevant because self reporting is not consistent across race for various reasons.

One possible explanation the authors bring up is that previous research has shown black drivers who have received traffic violations are less likely than whites who have received traffic violations to admit to having received them on anonymous research surveys. For example, among North Carolina drivers known to have received tickets, 75% of whites admitted it on a survey compared to 66% of blacks (Pfaff-Wright, Tomaskovic-Devey, 2000). Comparisons of several different surveys of drug use find that “nonreporting of drug use is twice as common among blacks and Hispanics as among whites” (Mensch and Kandel).


Since much of the “contraband” these surveys were asking about was, in fact, drugs, this seems pretty relevant.

OK! OK!
Self Reporting.

I know in Real Life, 3D a White Guy that was stopped in one of those Land Locked States with 35 Pounds of Marijuana, before Marijuana was Legal.
I had heard Rumors. Rumors are fun, yet Rumors are often based on a very small seed of Truth. Like a Pearl.

I like Pearls.
I like Rumors.

I met the Man.
I waited as long as I could.

When he seemed relaxed and no one else was around,
I told him I had heard a Rumor. I asked."Is it True?"

He did not hesitate.
It's true.

I was off by one pound.
I laughed and so did he.

That was The Most Frightening Experiences of his Life.
That is a Man that dresses up like a Seal and jumps into Shark infested waters.

He is a convicted Felon.
That colors his life and the territory between his ears.

It cost him.
He was able, as an Adult Man, to call his Mom.
His Mom came, a-Running, with a Check Book in hand.

I spoke to that same man on a different occasion.
We were talking about a different legal matter.

He said, "It helps to be White and Middle Class."
There was a great deal left unsaid before and after that one sentence.

Of Course! It helps to be Middle Class!
It helps More to be Upper Middle Class!
It helps even More to be Rich!

Why the Hell did he even Bother saying White??
The color of Privilege is Green!

The Legal System in that Land Locked State did not care what Color his Mom was.
It cared about how much Money his Mom had.

OK! OK! It would have cost Mike Brown's Mom more than it cost Shark Bait's Mom.
Money buys representation! At every-fucking-level in the US.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ormurinn » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:09 pm UTC

Heres a pretty good article on the question of whether the police unfairly discriminate based on race;

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_2_c ... ystem.html
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:53 pm UTC

Heather Mac Donald is hardly an unbiased source. All she does is act as an apologist for race and gender issues.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ormurinn » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:56 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Heather Mac Donald is hardly an unbiased source. All she does is act as an apologist for race and gender issues.


Fair enough - I wasn't aware.

Left-libertarian good enough for you?

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/ra ... d-to-know/

He concludes that there is a racial disparity in sentencing, but not in much else, particularly not in arrests. Any disparity that exists is extremely small.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:29 am UTC

The Heck??
If the Color of Privilege is Green, it's still Pre-Judged.
That's not nice.

Justice is Blindfolded while she is working.
She is neither blind nor deaf.

When you ask for Justice,
Who speaks for you?

People that live in Safe Environments don't usually go looking for Justice.
Some people toddle off to Law School. What a lot of Trouble that must be.

They must be looking for something.
If anyone knows where Justice is hiding, it would be Those Guys.

Maybe, she has been KidNapped!
She is Blind Folded and can't tell us where she is!

How much would it cost us to Random her?
How many of us need her?

One in One Hundred?
Are those good odds?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:42 am UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote: despite having a 37% lower chance of being found with contraband.)

Could you give the cite for that?
http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

Not self-reported, police-reported.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:03 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
HungryHobo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote: despite having a 37% lower chance of being found with contraband.)

Could you give the cite for that?
http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

Not self-reported, police-reported.


Those Asian statistics. :shock: :shock: :shock: Almost zero across the board.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:54 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Could you give the cite for that?
http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

Not self-reported, police-reported.[/quote]

Ah I see, I presumed it was from some nationwide numbers rather than a single small area.

34.04..
so 16/47
for it to match it would need to be 10/47.

ie: the numbers are so small that if they stopped and searched a single car full of white teens and found drugs that would cover the difference.

Same goes for the asian and hispanic numbers (both far lower than white).
the numbers are so small you can't really draw conclusions from them, the 4.55 for hispanics is 1 guy.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:18 pm UTC

I believe those are numbers of stops, by race of driver, not number of people in a stopped car.

And yes, it was just for Ferguson PD, since that's the PD we're talking about with Darren Wilson.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:00 pm UTC

addams wrote:The Heck??
If the Color of Privilege is Green, it's still Pre-Judged.
That's not nice.

I take it this is in reference to one of the comments:


Say you’re playing a game where a light is going to go on 100 times, and each time it’s either going to be green or red, and you have to guess in advance. Every time you guess right, you win a dollar.

Suppose that you notice that on average, green shows up twice as often as red, but you can’t see a pattern to it. If you want to maximise your winnings, should you on average bet on green twice as often as red to match the frequencies you’re seeing? No, you should strictly bet on green every time.


Similarly, if a random black person is statistically more likely to be a criminal than a white person, then a police officer’s or prosecutor’s career incentive is to focus on them.

Of course this wouldn’t fly as a practical policy. Green and red lights may be independent from your choices, but humans are not. If you completely removed police overwatch from non-black populations, this would encourage crime in those populations. Even if you didn’t care, there’s no way you’d defend yourself from accusations of blatant racism and unfairness.

Still, the incentive is there. And it’s based on math – racial prejudice not required.

Because I believe people tend to follow incentives, my current best guess is that police do over-profile (target the higher risk groups more than the actual risk differences would suggest), and they are going to, and the only question is to what extent this can be mitigated.

…except when the mitigatory incentives become too strong and the balance swings in the other direction, which is where you get the Rotherham fiasco.


so if there's even modest differences in levels of criminality for any reason across any classifier that's visible from a distance , say one group tends to make up a larger portion of the poorest 10% of society which also correlates with being more likely to break the law you can end up with a red/green lights problem if there's any incentives to maximise arrests/convictions at all.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:13 pm UTC

That doesn't make sense; lights are red more often than green. Because while one light is either yellow or green the other must be red, and for a short time they are all red.

/intentionally missing the point

But that isn't how it works in the real world. If you have to protect your assets from TERRORISTS!!!, you look at what will do the most damage and guard accordingly. If a nuclear reactor does damage worth 95, and a school does damage worth 5, you put 95% of your guards on the reactor. If you put all your guards on the reactor, the TERRORISTS have free reign on your schools.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:23 pm UTC

you hit similar problems whenever a classifier isn't allowed to be used for ethical/legal reasons.

A more real life example would be males and females with car insurance in the EU where the courts have pretty much said "we don't care if that's a meaningful classifier, you're not allowed to use it when calculating insurance premiums"
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:51 pm UTC

You can get around that with advertising that appeals mainly to one gender.

Advertisers don't just care about the number of each demo but the ratio of the demos as well.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:08 pm UTC

Interesting.
In the US advertising was used to level out Car Insurance.
Both risk and cost were leveled across the two genders.

In response to Mass Media, Girls have become Very aggressive drivers.
And; Some are still putting on Make-Up while they drive.
Others prefer to Text.

Spoiler:
so funny and so off topic.

Some guy tells his Insurance agent.
"No. That premium is too high."
"I'm Transgenr Homosexual." (or stick some other thing in that slot)

"We almost Never have car accidents.
We are too busy making money and having sex to drive much."
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:14 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:you hit similar problems whenever a classifier isn't allowed to be used for ethical/legal reasons.

A more real life example would be males and females with car insurance in the EU where the courts have pretty much said "we don't care if that's a meaningful classifier, you're not allowed to use it when calculating insurance premiums"


Hmm a little off topic but I didnt realize you couldn't use gender for determining insurance premiums in the EU. The cynic in me says of course that I imagine male rates stayed the same and female rates just skyrocketed as a result of this ruling though.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:22 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Unlike you, some people in this thread don't believe a problem exists or that it isn't a big deal, cough cough leady cough cough.


To be fair you only know my view that there is no evidence of racism and that the actions are in keeping with the standards of american law enforcement, not that I agree those standards are completely sensible.

To me we have two competing schools of thought here

1. cop cuts off two people walking down the street
2. cop gets angry because hes racist and assaults one through the window and is shrugged off, so opens fire from point blank
3. man runs away, cop gets out of car and even angrier decides to chase the suspect
4. suspect turns to give up so in broad daylight, angry cop coldly executes the suspect in a hail of bullets (because hes extremely racist and a pyschopath)

or

1. cop cuts off two people walking down the street
2. recently turned 18 suspect who knows he committed a felony minutes before who is high does something very stupid and attacks the officer realising his life is ruined if arrested.
3. Either suspect reaches for the gun or the cop thinks he does so and fires at the suspect.
4. suspect briefly wakes up from idiocy and flight takes hold
5. cop has to follow for numerous reasons (not least because hes just shot someone)
6. chase ensues, and cop is gaining - fight takes over
7. suspect charges cop and is gunned down from close range

both of these stories fit the physical evidence and believable witness statements. One however requires a massive leap in logic that a psychotic racist has held his job for several years without leaving a trail of devestation the other that a criminal panicked and made some bad choices like millions before him.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:35 pm UTC

leady wrote:5. cop has to follow for numerous reasons (not least because hes just shot someone)
6. chase ensues, and cop is gaining - fight takes over
At this point, Wilson should not be chasing, and should instead be calling for backup or securing non-lethal tools like a taser. There's no excuse for shooting a fleeing suspect, especially when the 'suspect' is guilty of a crime as minor as 'stealing some cigars' or 'jaywalking', or even dare I say, 'resisting arrest and getting shot'.

And only a moron would chase someone that terrified you after you've shot to kill and failed. Your 'ideal' doesn't check out at all.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:52 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:At this point, Wilson should not be chasing, and should instead be calling for backup or securing non-lethal tools like a taser. There's no excuse for shooting a fleeing suspect, especially when the 'suspect' is guilty of a crime as minor as 'stealing some cigars' or 'jaywalking', or even dare I say, 'resisting arrest and getting shot'.

And only a moron would chase someone that terrified you after you've shot to kill and failed. Your 'ideal' doesn't check out at all.


Im curious here as to why people keep saying he shot a fleeing suspect. He definitely didn't shoot him while the guy was running away, all the shots were from the front and it looks pretty much like they both ran around 150 ft before any shooting occurred.

The chasing aspect I can get even if you're afraid. Not wanting to let the suspect go and such. But why the hell would you get so close to him that your only recourse is to shoot him should he move back towards you. You'd think he'd keep his distance so that if the suspect DID turn around he wouldn't be in a position to get attacked again. Presumably he wasn't going to overpower and arrest this guy alone, and backup had already been called. All you needed to do at that point was keep him in sight really.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:08 pm UTC

The cop was poorly trained. Many cops are trained to escalate any situation when the correct solution is to back off and call for backup. Of course this often leads to multiple poorly trained cops shooting someone.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby PolakoVoador » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:18 pm UTC

leady wrote:both of these stories fit the physical evidence and believable witness statements. One however requires a massive leap in logic that a psychotic racist has held his job for several years without leaving a trail of devestation the other that a criminal panicked and made some bad choices like millions before him.

Wasn't Wilson from a department that was disbanded/closed (I don't know the correct term for it) due to an extensive history of abuse?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:25 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Im curious here as to why people keep saying he shot a fleeing suspect. He definitely didn't shoot him while the guy was running away, all the shots were from the front and it looks pretty much like they both ran around 150 ft before any shooting occurred.


He didn't HIT Brown while he was fleeing. There were 3 volleys of shots. First was inside the car; Brown was hit at least once. Second was while Brown was running away, none hit. Brown turned around, started towards Wilson, and the final volley killed him.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:30 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:At this point, Wilson should not be chasing, and should instead be calling for backup or securing non-lethal tools like a taser. There's no excuse for shooting a fleeing suspect, especially when the 'suspect' is guilty of a crime as minor as 'stealing some cigars' or 'jaywalking', or even dare I say, 'resisting arrest and getting shot'.

And only a moron would chase someone that terrified you after you've shot to kill and failed. Your 'ideal' doesn't check out at all.


Thats your view, but I believe the correct police procedure is to follow, either to prevent harm to others or to provide aid to the man hes just shot. Also you don't use a taser when under threat. You can hardly fault an individual officer for doing what he is supposed to even if you don't agree with the policies.

PolakoVoador wrote:Wasn't Wilson from a department that was disbanded/closed (I don't know the correct term for it) due to an extensive history of abuse?


Again you can't prove guilt by association

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:02 pm UTC

CorruptUser
The Times seem to disagree with you.
There is an altercation between Officer Wilson and Mr. Brown, who is standing at the window of the vehicle. Officer Wilson fires two shots from inside the vehicle, one likely grazing Mr. Brown’s thumb, and the other missing him.
Mr. Brown runs east. Officer Wilson pursues him on foot. Mr. Brown stops and turns toward Officer Wilson, who also stops. Mr. Brown moves toward Officer Wilson, who fires several more shots. Mr. Brown is fatally wounded.
Officer Wilson fired 12 rounds, including two from the car and 10 more down the street, where Mr. Brown sustained at least six more wounds, including at his forehead and the top of his head, which suggested that his body was bent forward at the waist.

Mr. Brown’s body was about 153 feet east of Officer Wilson’s car. Mr. Brown’s blood was about 25 feet east of his body. This evidence supports statements that Mr. Brown continued to move closer to the officer after being hit by an initial string of bullets.
I don't interpret that as he fired at a fleeing man. But like some many other things here it isn't clear, and it will never be. But if the Times is to believed than, while there was a pursuit, which would have been legal, the evidence tends to support the narrative that Brown turned and faced Wilson before he was shot. Of course the Times wasn't there and neither was I.

@Leady
There is nothing in the law that I am aware of that demands a cop give chase. And what is legal isn't always prudent. In this case an unarmed man died, and Ferguson has experienced riots. Wilson himself is probably through as a cop.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:12 pm UTC

Yeah because the possible alternate story of "white cop shoots black suspect, waits in car for 15 mins for backup to arrive whilst he dies alone" would have played out much better.

Its not legal that cops actual do policing and follow procedure - but I think its expected by their captains (who always shout a lot in every show and film ever)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:30 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Officer Wilson fired 12 rounds, including two from the car and 10 more down the street, where Mr. Brown sustained at least six more wounds, including at his forehead and the top of his head, which suggested that his body was bent forward at the waist.

Mr. Brown’s body was about 153 feet east of Officer Wilson’s car. Mr. Brown’s blood was about 25 feet east of his body. This evidence supports statements that Mr. Brown continued to move closer to the officer after being hit by an initial string of bullets.
I don't interpret that as he fired at a fleeing man. But like some many other things here it isn't clear, and it will never be. But if the Times is to believed than, while there was a pursuit, which would have been legal, the evidence tends to support the narrative that Brown turned and faced Wilson before he was shot. Of course the Times wasn't there and neither was I.


I didn't even notice the mention of the 25 feet for the blood stains compared to the body in that link. Had been trying to find that number in the transcripts without much success. That does seem to indicate that he moved a fair distance towards the officer after the chase stopped.

Now that doesn't preclude the possibility that he was shot AT while running away, although it would have had to be quite close to the final part of the encounter since we don't have widely spread shell casings.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:57 pm UTC

leady wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:At this point, Wilson should not be chasing, and should instead be calling for backup or securing non-lethal tools like a taser. There's no excuse for shooting a fleeing suspect, especially when the 'suspect' is guilty of a crime as minor as 'stealing some cigars' or 'jaywalking', or even dare I say, 'resisting arrest and getting shot'.

And only a moron would chase someone that terrified you after you've shot to kill and failed. Your 'ideal' doesn't check out at all.


Thats your view, but I believe the correct police procedure is to follow, either to prevent harm to others or to provide aid to the man hes just shot. Also you don't use a taser when under threat. You can hardly fault an individual officer for doing what he is supposed to even if you don't agree with the policies.

PolakoVoador wrote:Wasn't Wilson from a department that was disbanded/closed (I don't know the correct term for it) due to an extensive history of abuse?


Again you can't prove guilt by association

I... can absolutely fault an officer for doing what he doesn't have to do when it results in the death of an unarmed suspect. Police are trained to uphold the law, not escalate minor situations to the point of killing people. If a suspect is fleeing, the officer is no longer in mortal peril. Additional shots are, as I see it, 100% improper. If Wilson had gotten back in his car, called for backup, and Brown had bled to death, I wouldn't have felt there was any fault in Wilsons actions.

To the second, yes, you can't prove guilt by association, which is precisely why 'being black and jaywalking' isn't reason to suspect Brown of being the suspect of a robbery, amiright?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:41 pm UTC

leady wrote:Yeah because the possible alternate story of "white cop shoots black suspect, waits in car for 15 mins for backup to arrive whilst he dies alone" would have played out much better.

Its not legal that cops actual do policing and follow procedure - but I think its expected by their captains (who always shout a lot in every show and film ever)
This is a mischaracterization of the event. Police pursuits can be problematic on a number of levels. In this case once contact was broken the first time Wilson wasn't at risk. He did however put civilians at risk, if you consider that half of the rounds he shot were off target. With no backup his only recourse was to kill if Brown turned on him. Police get something equivalent to "go" fever when a chase starts, and they tend not to back off, even if it would be safer all around. I'm not saying he was wrong, but a clear look at the aftermath suggests that had he broke contact it would have been better for everyone, including him. I grant you that hindsight is 20/20. But do you think that Wilson hasn't had thoughts along these lines, given that it has destroyed his career? Police might take longer before shooting if they knew that killing an unarmed person was a career ender. I have no wish for police to die because they didn't shoot when they needed to(and sometimes they do), but that desire has to be measured against the number of killings where the suspects aren't armed.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:03 pm UTC

Then I'd suggest campaigning to change police operating procedures rather than getting the pitchforks out for someone following it after the fact.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:09 pm UTC

You keep making these absurd claims about what "procedure" is without backing it up.

And even if a certain action is accepted procedure, if it's also illegal then that person should face the consequences on top of our making efforts to change the procedure.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:34 pm UTC

IzawwlgoodI... can absolutely fault an officer for doing what he doesn't have to do when it results in the death of an unarmed suspect. [/quote]

Unarmed does not mean innocent, or even unaggressive. It is sometimes entirely correct to shoot an unarmed suspect if he is presenting a threat. The repeated use of folks of "unarmed" is, I feel, framing the question incorrectly.

[quote="gmalivuk wrote:
You keep making these absurd claims about what "procedure" is without backing it up.

And even if a certain action is accepted procedure, if it's also illegal then that person should face the consequences on top of our making efforts to change the procedure.


It is not illegal for police to pursue a suspect. Obviously. It is simply not mandated to always do so. An officer complying with policy and not breaking law is...not very strange. The only question here is if the officer actually had a reasonable perception of being in danger when he fired.

It seems fairly clear from physical evidence that the suspect was not fleeing from the officer when he was shot. So that, at least, can be ruled out, even though it does not entirely answer the above question.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:41 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:For one thing, it is extremely easy to get an indictment if you actually have a prosecutor interested in indicting anyone (99.99% or more).

Do you have a source for this that doesn't conflate federal with state grand juries?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:44 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:It is not illegal for police to pursue a suspect. Obviously. It is simply not mandated to always do so. An officer complying with policy and not breaking law is...not very strange. The only question here is if the officer actually had a reasonable perception of being in danger when he fired.
No, but it is illegal for cops to shoot fleeing subjects.

Again, I'm not disputing that shooting during the initial confrontation was unreasonable, maybe, but I am disputing the decision to follow a fleeing, shot, suspect, without calling for backup, without considering non-lethals, and then firing repeatedly at a distance with poor accuracy.

If a shot suspect is described as 'demonically terrifying', I question Wilson's ability to make objective decisions in the pursuit. Given the outcome of said pursuit, I think that doubt is warranted.

EDIT: Also, yes, Brown was facing Wilson when he was shot and killed. Which certainly suggests he was not at that moment in time, in the process of fleeing. Which could mean anything; maybe Wilson called out and Brown stopped and turned. Maybe Wilson fired, missed, and Brown stopped and turned. Maybe Brown mutated into a giant Mr. Hyde like creature, turned, and charged the terrified Wilson.

120 feet, I believe, was the distance? I don't care what direction Brown was facing, he wasn't a threat to Wilson at that distance.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:47 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:For one thing, it is extremely easy to get an indictment if you actually have a prosecutor interested in indicting anyone (99.99% or more).

Do you have a source for this that doesn't conflate federal with state grand juries?

Not without looking harder than I care to at the moment.

But fine, drop the specific number. All the other irregularities of this particular Grand Jury still stand and are still relevant (and would still be relevant even in a situation where the typical past results were split 50/50).
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:56 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:It is not illegal for police to pursue a suspect. Obviously. It is simply not mandated to always do so. An officer complying with policy and not breaking law is...not very strange. The only question here is if the officer actually had a reasonable perception of being in danger when he fired.
No, but it is illegal for cops to shoot fleeing subjects.

Again, I'm not disputing that shooting during the initial confrontation was unreasonable, maybe, but I am disputing the decision to follow a fleeing, shot, suspect, without calling for backup, without considering non-lethals, and then firing repeatedly at a distance with poor accuracy.


Poor accuracy is, sadly, standard for cops. I do wish that accuracy standards were higher, along with associated training standards, but this isn't particularly exceptional, and fortunately, the missed shots did not impact anyone else in this case. Higher accuracy would not have changed the eventual outcome.

Following a fleeing shot person seems essential. Leaving a shot person to die seems...not at all like what the police should be doing. Even if they shot them. Shot people deserve prompt medical attention, and suspects should be taken into custody, even if it is dangerous to the officer. That's...kind of what cops are for.

If a shot suspect is described as 'demonically terrifying', I question Wilson's ability to make objective decisions in the pursuit. Given the outcome of said pursuit, I think that doubt is warranted.


Demonically terrifying is, I think we can all agree, inflation for the benefit of the courtroom. Hyperbole, to emphasize the danger or whatever. I do not think this can reasonably be taken seriously.

EDIT: Also, yes, Brown was facing Wilson when he was shot and killed. Which certainly suggests he was not at that moment in time, in the process of fleeing. Which could mean anything; maybe Wilson called out and Brown stopped and turned. Maybe Wilson fired, missed, and Brown stopped and turned. Maybe Brown mutated into a giant Mr. Hyde like creature, turned, and charged the terrified Wilson.

120 feet, I believe, was the distance? I don't care what direction Brown was facing, he wasn't a threat to Wilson at that distance.


I believe the distance between them was much shorter? 25ish feet, I believe? Where is the 120 feet from?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:06 pm UTC

25 ft is the distance between the first blood spatter and the body. This first spatter is presumably from the first of two bursts of shots that he fired after the car altercation. Looking at the NY Times map this occurred ~150 ft away from the car (i.e., he chased him for about 150 ft before shooting). All the shell casings are pretty clusterd in a ~10-20ft area it seems (all around the body). So the shooting itself happened at fairly close range from what we can see. There was no over 100 ft shooting going on here.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:59 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Following a fleeing shot person seems essential. Leaving a shot person to die seems...not at all like what the police should be doing. Even if they shot them. Shot people deserve prompt medical attention, and suspects should be taken into custody, even if it is dangerous to the officer. That's...kind of what cops are for.
Eh, I disagree. First order of business after an altercation should be calling for backup. Second order should be calmly following or tracking the subject to ensure no further harm to civilians. Third order should be securing the subject for the arrest.

Order of priorities of safety here should be 1 ) public, 2 ) officer, 3 ) subject. Cops should not be able to fire wildly when they feel they're at risk if it's going to harm bystanders.

Tyndmyr wrote:Demonically terrifying is, I think we can all agree, inflation for the benefit of the courtroom. Hyperbole, to emphasize the danger or whatever. I do not think this can reasonably be taken seriously.
And doesn't that worry you?

Tyndmyr wrote:I believe the distance between them was much shorter? 25ish feet, I believe? Where is the 120 feet from?
Chen wrote:25 ft is the distance between the first blood spatter and the body. This first spatter is presumably from the first of two bursts of shots that he fired after the car altercation. Looking at the NY Times map this occurred ~150 ft away from the car (i.e., he chased him for about 150 ft before shooting). All the shell casings are pretty clusterd in a ~10-20ft area it seems (all around the body). So the shooting itself happened at fairly close range from what we can see. There was no over 100 ft shooting going on here.

Right, sorry; Wilson pursued for ~150 ft, which means there's ample time to A ) call for backup, or B ) secure a taser. Presumably Brown turned, and from a distance of about 10-25 ft, Wilson shot him dead.

I guess my danger sense is crap, but if someone was standing 10-25 ft away from me with a gunshot wound, I wouldn't call them a 'terrifying threat'.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby mosc » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:03 pm UTC

There are actual facts in the case you know. You don't have to guess. You have no reason to believe the officer in question distorted the physical distances involved.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:08 pm UTC

mosc wrote:There are actual facts in the case you know. You don't have to guess. You have no reason to believe the officer in question distorted the physical distances involved.
We have no reason to believe the potential suspect in a murder case was less than truthful about some of the details of that one time when he killed a person?

The initial lie that got repeated everywhere was something like 35 feet from car to body, so yes, we have reason to believe some of those initial reports were distorted re. the physical distances involved.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:10 pm UTC

mosc wrote:There are actual facts in the case you know. You don't have to guess. You have no reason to believe the officer in question distorted the physical distances involved.

Yeah.
We have all those documents.
Typing some Bullshit into a computer without links, and quoted sections from the Grand Jury documents is lazy and rude.

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If you want to talk about distances, bring in the Link to the document you got the numbers from.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby 12obin » Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:25 pm UTC

The fact that the modern American police evolved from Slave Patrol and the KKK is established and documented, and the idea that race is not central to policing is ahistorical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol
http://www.plsonline.eku.edu/insidelook ... n-policing
http://www.rinr.fsu.edu/issue2001/slavery.html

Absolutely, class and wealth are also relevant. Whiteness is not enough to protect you, if you are poor, mentally ill, marginalized in various other ways. But neither is wealth enough to protect you if you are Black.

http://boingboing.net/2009/07/21/promin ... -prof.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/django-unch ... -1.2766265
http://www.washingtonpost.com/postevery ... was-wrong/
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