Police misbehavior thread

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sardia
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:44 pm UTC

You do realize that the cops don't actually pay any of the fibres, right? It's congress out of general funds aka taxpayers. Now if these payouts came out of the police department budget, then cops might be willing to take over for the team instead of shooting receiving that moves.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:59 pm UTC

http://gawker.com/police-officer-placed ... 1729787210

police tackle reasonably famous tennis star because they thought he was the guy they were looking for

you know...tackle completely calm, stationary guy, without announcing you're a cop or even asking for his name or what he's doing there....much more reasonable than any other alternative
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:24 am UTC

DSenette wrote:http://gawker.com/police-officer-placed-on-desk-duty-after-mistakenly-tac-1729787210

police tackle reasonably famous tennis star because they thought he was the guy they were looking for


And, apparently, once again on the statement of the infamous CI.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:07 am UTC

I have to say, the tennis star seems to be taking it reasonably well. Kudos to him. And finally, a face of police brutality that looks and acts white enough doesn't have a questionable backstory!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:49 pm UTC

sardia wrote:You do realize that the cops don't actually pay any of the fibres, right? It's congress out of general funds aka taxpayers. Now if these payouts came out of the police department budget, then cops might be willing to take over for the team instead of shooting receiving that moves.


*fines.

Yeah, that's a significant issue. Essentially, it's just another cost for taxpayers to shoulder. It's expensive, sure, but it's effectively an externality imposed on us.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:09 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I have to say, the tennis star seems to be taking it reasonably well. Kudos to him. And finally, a face of police brutality that looks and acts white enough doesn't have a questionable backstory!


Imagine all the lives he could save if he came out and said something like "I'm not happy they were so rough, but I accept the misidentification and understand and accept the role the police play in keeping society safe"

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:20 pm UTC

leady wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I have to say, the tennis star seems to be taking it reasonably well. Kudos to him. And finally, a face of police brutality that looks and acts white enough doesn't have a questionable backstory!


Imagine all the lives he could save if he came out and said something like "I'm not happy they were so rough, but I accept the misidentification and understand and accept the role the police play in keeping society safe"

imagine all the lives that could be saved, if the cops started asking questions of nonviolent "suspects" before wrestling them to the ground.

I can imagine ONE life that would be saved, if cops had just written a fucking ticket for someone selling loose cigarettes in a park.

they guy they mistook him for, was suspected of credit card fraud.....hardly a life threatening situation to anyone. but...sure....let's tackle the fucker (even if he WAS the right person) and initiate a struggle
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:09 pm UTC

Yeah, if you think that the police are justifying in jumping straight to violence rather than starting at the 'talk and non-violent arrest - oy, you're nicked' then you are part of the problem.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diemo » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:37 pm UTC

So, I was thinking about this idea that police are in danger. Specifically, I was thinking about whether or not it is actually true. It seems obvious that policework would be more dangerous that non-police work, as police are specifically tasked with working with violent criminals. But how dangerous is it actually?

According to this website the number of police that were killed in the line of duty last year is 51. There are currently (according to google) 765,000 sworn personnel.

So, we will assume that there are 64 police killed every year (this is the average given by the FBI between 1980 and 2014). So the chances that you are killed are 64/765000 per year. As an officer, you will generally serve for a fair number of years, and I am going to assume that you serve for 40 years here. Assuming that the average number of deaths over those 40 years does not change, and assuming that the average number of people employed don't change, this leaves you with a 0.33% chance of being killed in the line of duty.

By the way, 50 people killed works out as about .6 deaths per 100,000 people. This doesn't take accidents into account. According to the same website, the number of accidental deaths for the last two years was 44 and 49. It seems reasonable to assume that there are on average 50 police accidentaly killed each year.

This works out as 0.13 deaths per 100,000 people. This is insanely low. For comparison, the average US worker has a death rate of 3.2 per 100,000 while fishermen and loggers have 117 deaths per 100000 and 164 per 100000 respectively.

In conclusion, police work is not dangerous, and in fact is safer that a lot of other jobs.

Corrections to any number used are welcome.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:50 pm UTC

From 2007-2013, police work was the 14th most deadly job in the US, based on number of worker-hours.

As I think I've said before in this thread, it is the second most likely profession to die from violence (including both suicide and homicide), but a sizable chunk less deadly than being a taxi driver or chauffeur. (Police are slightly more likely to die in transportation incidents than taxi drivers, though.)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:05 pm UTC

(completely tangential to any current topic at hand but, http://gizmodo.com/this-clip-on-handgun ... 1730039256 less lethal option for a first shot while not hindering lethal follow up shots)
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:11 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:(completely tangential to any current topic at hand but, http://gizmodo.com/this-clip-on-handgun ... 1730039256 less lethal option for a first shot while not hindering lethal follow up shots)


Sweet jesus, that looks like a bad idea.

At a minimum, the terminology of "non lethal" seems inaccurate. Less lethal, maybe. Note that even tasers are "less lethal", because...shit happens. I think the distinction is important, especially when we're talking about police employing force broadly as a compliance tool.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:16 pm UTC

fairly certain the company that makes it calls it less lethal....gizmodo is the one that calls it non lethal.

the company that makes the thing compares it directly to bean bag rounds. but you don't have to carry a second weapon to fire it. so, first shot is less lethal, next shot is most definitely lethal.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:16 pm UTC

I do love I idea so bad that even though you could mechanically prototype it in a day, they use a computer rendering to show how it will work :)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:20 pm UTC

Yeah, that.

Also, it indicates a severe lack of familiarity with firearm construction/loading, etc. Something that close to the barrel is going to impact gas escape, for instance. Given that handgun powders burn particularly fast, screwing with this will generally put additional strain on the gun. To put this in perspective, so does a longer barrel, and accidentally using handgun powder in reloading rifle cartridges is a great way to turn your firearm into a bomb. The kind you hold up to your eye when it goes boom. Other careless reloading practices(such as oversized cartridges) have similar effects.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:26 pm UTC

leady wrote:I do love I idea so bad that even though you could mechanically prototype it in a day, they use a computer rendering to show how it will work :)

I have seen actual video of it on youtube somewhere, so again, that looks like it's gizmodo's fault.

The things I don't like about it are:

a) that it's an extra step to put it on, which I would have thought would seriously limit its usefulness.

b) it seems like it would probably be a more lethal less-lethal option than a taser, and might discourage taser use more than it discourages fully lethal firearms use.

If it was usually attached to the gun, such that you could draw as normal, and one trigger pull = less lethal, multiple trigger pulls = fully lethal, I can see it being a reasonable option to have. Presenting it as part of the solution to police violence strikes me as a distraction though - from what I've read I don't think that not having appropriate less-lethal options is a major part of the problem.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:55 pm UTC

Also while it might reduce the number of fatalities, I have a feeling it would certainly increase the amount of shootings. So instead of using it when their life is in danger and its the only resort, it will be used far earlier in the escalation chain.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:22 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Also while it might reduce the number of fatalities, I have a feeling it would certainly increase the amount of shootings. So instead of using it when their life is in danger and its the only resort, it will be used far earlier in the escalation chain.


I have that feeling as well.

And it would add credibility to accidental shootings. If you're using the same device for both things, that's...a little uncomfortable. We have a number of examples of police firing because of other police shooting, and/or dumping the whole mag because...reasons, I guess. This seems like it could provoke more of that.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:09 pm UTC

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/sca ... rime-wave/
The recent crime wave we've been hearing about is mostly cherrypicking, and abuse of statistics.
"If you’ve read reports of a U.S. crime wave this year and wondered how many cities it was really affecting, you’re not alone. We’ve spent the last week trying to answer that question and have compiled 2015 homicide data for nearly all of the 60 biggest cities. The results confirm that there has been an increase in homicides this year in big U.S. cities of about 16 percent. But that doesn’t come close to reversing the long-term decline in homicides. And it’s a less dire picture than the one painted by reports in several large media outlets, which generally highlighted those cities that have suffered the biggest increase in homicides.
The reports have been based on just a small, possibly cherry-picked sampling of cities. The country’s broken crime-data system makes it impossible to know what’s happening everywhere, and the “if it bleeds, it leads” journalistic imperative means the places we hear about often are the biggest outliers."

So no, black lives protesters aren't causing an increase in crime. Also some of the statistics cited are just statistical artifacts. For example,
" A 20 percent increase in Seattle sounds a lot more significant than an increase to 18 homicides from 15 through Aug. 29. Homicides in Arlington, Texas, through Aug. 31 are down by 50 percent — to four from eight."
If you look through all the cities, none of crime rate changes exceed statistical significance.

TLDR: News outlets are yanking your chain in order to snag ratings.
Last edited by sardia on Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:42 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:23 am UTC

DSenette wrote:(completely tangential to any current topic at hand but, http://gizmodo.com/this-clip-on-handgun ... 1730039256 less lethal option for a first shot while not hindering lethal follow up shots)


I think it's a bad idea for several reasons. But I'll just go with the biggie: what if the officer really needs that first shot to be lethal?
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:52 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
DSenette wrote:(completely tangential to any current topic at hand but, http://gizmodo.com/this-clip-on-handgun ... 1730039256 less lethal option for a first shot while not hindering lethal follow up shots)


I think it's a bad idea for several reasons. But I'll just go with the biggie: what if the officer really needs that first shot to be lethal?
That's the least big reason I can imagine. How long does it take to get off asecond shot? If the person has drawn or is drawing a weapon, an initial "less lethal" shot is still going to delay them or mess up their aim enough that a second, lethal shot will do its job.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:56 am UTC

From the looks, you can get a second shot off within a fraction of a second. There's a good chance that since they are trained to shoot until the target is down, that even if they were always equipped with this, it would not significantly reduce police killings. More problematic is that it may make them more willing to use their firearm, resulting in even more deaths.
Last edited by Thesh on Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:25 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:21 pm UTC

Right, there are plenty of *other* important reasons why this isn't a good idea. I'm just saying "what if the first shot *needs* to be lethal?" isn't one of them.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:27 pm UTC

Just to be clear, only the first sentence was really in response to your post; the rest was observations about the idea in general.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:23 pm UTC

An off-duty officer from Temple, Texas, Kenneth Lee Sheka, was at a convention in El Paso, TX. He was talking to a server at the bar, when another man asked her to show her breasts. After he left, Sheka became disrespectful and also asked her to show her breasts. When she started to walk away go to the dance floor with a third man, Sheka put out his arm to stop her and grabbed her by the breast in the process.

She told him not to do it again and then started to walk away with the third man, at which point, Sheka fired a shot into the wall. The gun was wrestled away from him by other officers that were present.

He's been charged with "deadly conduct/discharge of firearm" and is on paid suspension until his case is resolved.

Thoughts: Where's the charge for sexual battery? Did he really shoot at the wall, or did he miss another target in he had in mind? Why shouldn't a willful, dangerous act like this result in immediate termination? They let him fly back to Temple, TX, (600 miles) after posting bond; think they'd let any of us do the same? How do we think his career will go, given his evident arrogance and short fuse?
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:51 am UTC

DSenette wrote:
leady wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I have to say, the tennis star seems to be taking it reasonably well. Kudos to him. And finally, a face of police brutality that looks and acts white enough doesn't have a questionable backstory!


Imagine all the lives he could save if he came out and said something like "I'm not happy they were so rough, but I accept the misidentification and understand and accept the role the police play in keeping society safe"

imagine all the lives that could be saved, if the cops started asking questions of nonviolent "suspects" before wrestling them to the ground.

I can imagine ONE life that would be saved, if cops had just written a fucking ticket for someone selling loose cigarettes in a park.

they guy they mistook him for, was suspected of credit card fraud.....hardly a life threatening situation to anyone. but...sure....let's tackle the fucker (even if he WAS the right person) and initiate a struggle

Just an update on this story, the guy they supposedly thought he was is also innocent.

But sure, let's just turn a blind eye to the police randomly assaulting people for no reason (don't tell me that credit card fraud is justifiable) and getting away with it.

I read one thing which was about Mayor De Blasio or someone apologising to James Black, and he rightly pointed out that he had the connections and publicity to get an apology, and what he wanted was for it not to happen again to someone who doesn't have a voice.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:18 pm UTC

If only we had a system where the cops would collect the people and bring them before a group of people randomly selected from the public, given a professional arguer who knows the law to defend the people, and allowed to make their case in a room that's open to the public, before a professional decides what the appropriate punishment is, THEN beat them mercilessly? And you know what, why not replace "beat mercilessly" with something constructive that will prevent these people from committing crimes in the future instead, like vocational training?

I'd pay taxes for that.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:57 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If only we had a system where the cops would collect the people and bring them before a group of people randomly selected from the public, given a professional arguer who knows the law to defend the people, and allowed to make their case in a room that's open to the public, before a professional decides what the appropriate punishment is, THEN beat them mercilessly? And you know what, why not replace "beat mercilessly" with something constructive that will prevent these people from committing crimes in the future instead, like vocational training?

I'd pay taxes for that.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:54 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
DSenette wrote:(completely tangential to any current topic at hand but, http://gizmodo.com/this-clip-on-handgun ... 1730039256 less lethal option for a first shot while not hindering lethal follow up shots)


I think it's a bad idea for several reasons. But I'll just go with the biggie: what if the officer really needs that first shot to be lethal?

well, considering you can't holster the side arm with the device attached.....if your first shot needs to be lethal, then you don't mount the device before your first shot?

the only reason I shared the thing is because it seems to be something that could AT LEAST TRY to give them a less lethal option that they might actually use.

without looking at every single case we've discussed so far, I'd assume that each of the officers that jumped straight to pulling their gun, also likely had a taser on them. which, I'm fairly certain most of us agree, should have been drawn BEFORE the gun. but, on the police defense side.....if you pull your taser, and you needed your gun...well...you just brought a taser to a gun fight. at least with something like this (even if it's not this)....you've got the option to be less than lethal first shot.

I think making it easier, and safer for a cop to have less than lethal first shot capability is a good thing. is this the solution to that? I dunno...probably not, but it's at least something to think about. some kind of reliable and easy method of giving less lethal first shot capabilities without making it difficult to switch from less lethal to lethal if it's needed.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:11 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:
Coyne wrote:
DSenette wrote:(completely tangential to any current topic at hand but, http://gizmodo.com/this-clip-on-handgun ... 1730039256 less lethal option for a first shot while not hindering lethal follow up shots)


I think it's a bad idea for several reasons. But I'll just go with the biggie: what if the officer really needs that first shot to be lethal?

well, considering you can't holster the side arm with the device attached.....if your first shot needs to be lethal, then you don't mount the device before your first shot?


Depends on your holster. Some holsters are more form fitting than others. Such a universal statement is surely false.

And if it requires attachment before use, then it seems like it would significantly delay a non-lethal response over, say, a taser. A taser also has an advantage in that it is distinct from the lethal weapon, making it more clear to the officer and those around him(including other officers) if lethal or non-lethal force is being resorted to. Accidents are still possible, of course, but this seems to be inviting error, because you're inherently pointing a lethal weapon at someone who you don't think is worth using lethal force on. That straight up violates a rule of gun safety, and I don't think we should be encouraging police to be less safe with firearms.

the only reason I shared the thing is because it seems to be something that could AT LEAST TRY to give them a less lethal option that they might actually use.


They have less lethal options now. The fact that they are not willing to use them does not imply that all fault lies with the options.

without looking at every single case we've discussed so far, I'd assume that each of the officers that jumped straight to pulling their gun, also likely had a taser on them. which, I'm fairly certain most of us agree, should have been drawn BEFORE the gun. but, on the police defense side.....if you pull your taser, and you needed your gun...well...you just brought a taser to a gun fight. at least with something like this (even if it's not this)....you've got the option to be less than lethal first shot.


See, the idea that you draw your gun before it is needed is a little sketchy. When you need your taser, draw your taser. When you need your gun, draw your gun. If necessary, dump the taser to do so.

Note that civilians can and do use tasers and pepper spray without running into the same issues as the police. It's fairly rare to hear about a random civilian pepper spraying an entire line of protesters, for instance. Sure, each individual civilian may have a low probability of encountering the situation, but there are a *lot* of civilians. If it was an innate failing of the technology, you would expect it to happen to all users.

I think making it easier, and safer for a cop to have less than lethal first shot capability is a good thing. is this the solution to that? I dunno...probably not, but it's at least something to think about. some kind of reliable and easy method of giving less lethal first shot capabilities without making it difficult to switch from less lethal to lethal if it's needed.


Look at how many of these situations there are where the cop shoots multiple shots in a short period of time. Making the first round less lethal is kinda weak at fixing that. It's a training issue. Undertrained people, in stressful situation, tend to just cook off rounds, often with marginal accuracy. If everything else remains the same, making the first round do less is a really poor fix.

It's also a really bad less lethal solution. It's still a ball of metal. Ya, a bigger, slower ball of metal, but...that's the concept behind a shotgun slug, too. At a minimum, it could still break bones, put out eyes, etc. It's a fairly destructive means of subdual. There's no reason we can't make low-velocity shotgun slugs now. Technically, you could do this in your basement. But it's still a really bad idea to fire that at someone you don't want to destroy.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:08 pm UTC

This is a confirmed fake. Thanks, Lazar.

Spoiler:
So, a while back we were talking about firing first shots in the air. Well, I can't authenticate this clip as valid with another source (and the lead-in is inflammatory to say the least) but if the main clip actually was a real stop...that is twenty shots (the entire clip) the officer fired into the air.

Man uses helium balloons to dispose of illegal drugs

Shotguns were invented to increase the odds of hitting a target. Twenty shots in the air sure increases the chances of hitting someone by accident. Further, I'm left with the impression if he'd had a hundred-shot clip he'd have emptied that. How about that for shot-in-the-air discipline?

Of course, there's also the lead up...stopped for running a stop sign and then immediately the officer goes all gotta get a dog here to go around your vehicle...

Make of it what you can.
Last edited by Coyne on Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:43 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:30 pm UTC

Exit the vampires' castle.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:53 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
DSenette wrote:
Coyne wrote:
DSenette wrote:(completely tangential to any current topic at hand but, http://gizmodo.com/this-clip-on-handgun ... 1730039256 less lethal option for a first shot while not hindering lethal follow up shots)


I think it's a bad idea for several reasons. But I'll just go with the biggie: what if the officer really needs that first shot to be lethal?

well, considering you can't holster the side arm with the device attached.....if your first shot needs to be lethal, then you don't mount the device before your first shot?


Depends on your holster. Some holsters are more form fitting than others. Such a universal statement is surely false.

except it doesn't. I'm not making a universal statement. I'm making a specific statement, about the design and use of this SPECIFIC device. it is NOT designed to be on the weapon when holstered. it's designed to be put on the gun on an as needed basis.

Tyndmyr wrote:And if it requires attachment before use, then it seems like it would significantly delay a non-lethal response over, say, a taser. A taser also has an advantage in that it is distinct from the lethal weapon, making it more clear to the officer and those around him(including other officers) if lethal or non-lethal force is being resorted to. Accidents are still possible, of course, but this seems to be inviting error, because you're inherently pointing a lethal weapon at someone who you don't think is worth using lethal force on. That straight up violates a rule of gun safety, and I don't think we should be encouraging police to be less safe with firearms.

the same general idea could apply to shotguns with bean bags or rubber bullets....the mistake is still possible that you DIDN'T load the right round in it.

my preference is towards dedicated less than lethal/non lethal devices but....doesn't seem that police forces share that preference.

so maybe another tool in the handbag that could maybe reduce lethal rounds being fired. does it have to be this one? no...it's just an interesting tool.

the fact that you have to attach it first, means that you're thinking about it when you're doing it and perhaps you'll be lead into a better resolution as opposed to just cracking off a bunch of rounds.


Tyndmyr wrote:
DSenette wrote:the only reason I shared the thing is because it seems to be something that could AT LEAST TRY to give them a less lethal option that they might actually use.


They have less lethal options now. The fact that they are not willing to use them does not imply that all fault lies with the options.

it might imply that. if the main reason they're pulling their gun is because they MIGHT also have to shoot the guy, then maybe having something that allows for a follow up shot without transitioning between weapons might help. again, does it have to be this thing? no, but...at least it's something to think about

Tyndmyr wrote:
DSenette wrote:without looking at every single case we've discussed so far, I'd assume that each of the officers that jumped straight to pulling their gun, also likely had a taser on them. which, I'm fairly certain most of us agree, should have been drawn BEFORE the gun. but, on the police defense side.....if you pull your taser, and you needed your gun...well...you just brought a taser to a gun fight. at least with something like this (even if it's not this)....you've got the option to be less than lethal first shot.


See, the idea that you draw your gun before it is needed is a little sketchy. When you need your taser, draw your taser. When you need your gun, draw your gun. If necessary, dump the taser to do so.

and I'd love for more cops to know when they need the taser....seems like quite a few recently don't. maybe they would have used this device or something similar and outcomes could have been different.

so, if the cops are already drawing their gun.....maybe it not being fully lethal would be beneficial.

Tyndmyr wrote:Note that civilians can and do use tasers and pepper spray without running into the same issues as the police. It's fairly rare to hear about a random civilian pepper spraying an entire line of protesters, for instance. Sure, each individual civilian may have a low probability of encountering the situation, but there are a *lot* of civilians. If it was an innate failing of the technology, you would expect it to happen to all users.

do you see a lot of random civilians shooting someone when they meant to use pepper spray or their taser?


Tyndmyr wrote:
DSenette wrote:I think making it easier, and safer for a cop to have less than lethal first shot capability is a good thing. is this the solution to that? I dunno...probably not, but it's at least something to think about. some kind of reliable and easy method of giving less lethal first shot capabilities without making it difficult to switch from less lethal to lethal if it's needed.


Look at how many of these situations there are where the cop shoots multiple shots in a short period of time. Making the first round less lethal is kinda weak at fixing that. It's a training issue. Undertrained people, in stressful situation, tend to just cook off rounds, often with marginal accuracy. If everything else remains the same, making the first round do less is a really poor fix.

being that you have to affix the device to the gun to use it for the first round, you're in a different mindset than the situation you're talking about. you've already made a conscious decision to affix a less than lethal tool to your gun, so you are in less than lethal mode. you should be less likely to just crack off a bunch of rounds in succession.

Tyndmyr wrote:It's also a really bad less lethal solution. It's still a ball of metal. Ya, a bigger, slower ball of metal, but...that's the concept behind a shotgun slug, too. At a minimum, it could still break bones, put out eyes, etc. It's a fairly destructive means of subdual. There's no reason we can't make low-velocity shotgun slugs now. Technically, you could do this in your basement. But it's still a really bad idea to fire that at someone you don't want to destroy.

it's a really bad less lethal solution because it could cause physical damage but not likely kill the person you shoot it at? it's the same for bean bags and rubber bullets...which is why they're called LESS lethal, not non lethal.

not all cops carry shotguns...in fact most of them don't....and there are basically zero less lethal options for hand guns like there are for shotguns...this is just one attempt at one
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:13 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
DSenette wrote:
Coyne wrote:
DSenette wrote:(completely tangential to any current topic at hand but, http://gizmodo.com/this-clip-on-handgun ... 1730039256 less lethal option for a first shot while not hindering lethal follow up shots)


I think it's a bad idea for several reasons. But I'll just go with the biggie: what if the officer really needs that first shot to be lethal?

well, considering you can't holster the side arm with the device attached.....if your first shot needs to be lethal, then you don't mount the device before your first shot?


Depends on your holster. Some holsters are more form fitting than others. Such a universal statement is surely false.

except it doesn't. I'm not making a universal statement. I'm making a specific statement, about the design and use of this SPECIFIC device. it is NOT designed to be on the weapon when holstered. it's designed to be put on the gun on an as needed basis.


They can make whatever statements they like about the device, but the fact remains that customization of firearms is terribly normal, and it's pretty common to have extra space in holsters around the barrel for various devices.

Leaving on the firearm is entirely possible if the user wishes, and the designer cannot reasonably prevent it.

Tyndmyr wrote:And if it requires attachment before use, then it seems like it would significantly delay a non-lethal response over, say, a taser. A taser also has an advantage in that it is distinct from the lethal weapon, making it more clear to the officer and those around him(including other officers) if lethal or non-lethal force is being resorted to. Accidents are still possible, of course, but this seems to be inviting error, because you're inherently pointing a lethal weapon at someone who you don't think is worth using lethal force on. That straight up violates a rule of gun safety, and I don't think we should be encouraging police to be less safe with firearms.

the same general idea could apply to shotguns with bean bags or rubber bullets....the mistake is still possible that you DIDN'T load the right round in it.


Of course. But in this, the CORRECT usage results in a firearm with live ammo pointed at the target you deemed worthy of non-lethal force.

Yes, accidents and error can result in a reduction of safety, but normally you develop practices to minimize this, not embrace it as a feature.

my preference is towards dedicated less than lethal/non lethal devices but....doesn't seem that police forces share that preference.

so maybe another tool in the handbag that could maybe reduce lethal rounds being fired. does it have to be this one? no...it's just an interesting tool.

the fact that you have to attach it first, means that you're thinking about it when you're doing it and perhaps you'll be lead into a better resolution as opposed to just cracking off a bunch of rounds.


Perhaps the issue is with the preferences, then?

Tyndmyr wrote:
DSenette wrote:the only reason I shared the thing is because it seems to be something that could AT LEAST TRY to give them a less lethal option that they might actually use.


They have less lethal options now. The fact that they are not willing to use them does not imply that all fault lies with the options.

it might imply that. if the main reason they're pulling their gun is because they MIGHT also have to shoot the guy, then maybe having something that allows for a follow up shot without transitioning between weapons might help. again, does it have to be this thing? no, but...at least it's something to think about


You can, if you wish, slap a taser on a firearm right now. It's not even hard, and doesn't require anything particularly custom or wierd. You just rail mount it.

However, this still means you're pointing a gun at people you don't need to point a gun at. This is unwise.

Tyndmyr wrote:
DSenette wrote:without looking at every single case we've discussed so far, I'd assume that each of the officers that jumped straight to pulling their gun, also likely had a taser on them. which, I'm fairly certain most of us agree, should have been drawn BEFORE the gun. but, on the police defense side.....if you pull your taser, and you needed your gun...well...you just brought a taser to a gun fight. at least with something like this (even if it's not this)....you've got the option to be less than lethal first shot.


See, the idea that you draw your gun before it is needed is a little sketchy. When you need your taser, draw your taser. When you need your gun, draw your gun. If necessary, dump the taser to do so.

and I'd love for more cops to know when they need the taser....seems like quite a few recently don't. maybe they would have used this device or something similar and outcomes could have been different.

so, if the cops are already drawing their gun.....maybe it not being fully lethal would be beneficial.


You are focusing on the equipment, and not the individual using the equipment.

Police officers are very well equipped. Ludicrously over-equipped, in some cases. We do not see a consistent pattern of violence only happening where police departments are poor, and unable to equip officers. Some of these incidents are happening with very well equipped police indeed.

The problem ain't in the taser, it's in the man.

Tyndmyr wrote:Note that civilians can and do use tasers and pepper spray without running into the same issues as the police. It's fairly rare to hear about a random civilian pepper spraying an entire line of protesters, for instance. Sure, each individual civilian may have a low probability of encountering the situation, but there are a *lot* of civilians. If it was an innate failing of the technology, you would expect it to happen to all users.

do you see a lot of random civilians shooting someone when they meant to use pepper spray or their taser?


No. This is probably because it's fairly hard to confuse a can of pepper spray or a taser with an actual firearm.

This is significant. It implies, again, that the problem is not the equipment, but with the user. When you're getting very different results from two populations of users, there's a people issue there to unpack.

being that you have to affix the device to the gun to use it for the first round, you're in a different mindset than the situation you're talking about. you've already made a conscious decision to affix a less than lethal tool to your gun, so you are in less than lethal mode. you should be less likely to just crack off a bunch of rounds in succession.


In a less than lethal mode? What is this, pop pscychiatry or something?

Police engage in aggression all the time, and utilizing less-lethal weaponry does not preclude them from escalating. Hell, some of them engage in very lethal conduct while using "less lethal" weaponry.

You can't fix a person's aggression by handing him more weaponry.

Tyndmyr wrote:It's also a really bad less lethal solution. It's still a ball of metal. Ya, a bigger, slower ball of metal, but...that's the concept behind a shotgun slug, too. At a minimum, it could still break bones, put out eyes, etc. It's a fairly destructive means of subdual. There's no reason we can't make low-velocity shotgun slugs now. Technically, you could do this in your basement. But it's still a really bad idea to fire that at someone you don't want to destroy.

it's a really bad less lethal solution because it could cause physical damage but not likely kill the person you shoot it at? it's the same for bean bags and rubber bullets...which is why they're called LESS lethal, not non lethal.

not all cops carry shotguns...in fact most of them don't....and there are basically zero less lethal options for hand guns like there are for shotguns...this is just one attempt at one


Bean bags and rubber bullets are still inherently less destructive than a metal ball. There's a reason lethal bullets are made of metal instead of rubber...this shouldn't really require a ton of explanation. You still have roughly similar energy of a handgun bullet at close range, being delivered by metal projectile. Yeah, it's distributed over a slightly broader area, but....it's still kinda shooting a bullet at someone. This is way worse than already-problematic beanbag/rubber rounds.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:32 pm UTC

The core problem with the (reportedly LTL) firearm gadget is ultimately that it misses that the actual problem is a cultural one within U.S. police forces.

Body camera systems may force a shift in that culture, forcing police to think before they fire. The muzzle-ball thingy, whether it works as claimed or not, doesn't actually change the willingness to use force of any kind against any one. Even if the device is used as proscribed by the manufacturer, and it functions as they claim it does, it's the willingness to use force that will determine whether and under what circumstances the trigger is pulled a second time for full lethality.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:46 pm UTC

You remember the policeman who was recently killed in Illinois? His nickname was "GI Joe?" I seem to recall his last radio transmission was something about a group of three men, two black and one white.

The case has developed since then. The three men, caught on video tape, have been released with no charges. The coroner says he cannot rule out a suicide as the cause of death.

Darn odd. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3236141/Beloved-Illinois-cop-thought-murdered-committed-suicide-according-coroner-federal-agents-begin-reduce-involvement-case.html

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:56 pm UTC

the guardian wrote:Police and school authorities in Irving, Texas are under fire after arresting a 14-year-old boy for bringing a homemade clock into school.

Ahmed Mohamed, an engineering hobbyist, made the timepiece and brought it to school in the hope of impressing teachers and fellow students in his first few weeks at MacArthur High School. But when he showed it to an English teacher after it beeped during her lesson, she told him it looked like a bomb.

Later in the day, the school’s principal and a police officer came to pull him out of class, and again the principal told Ahmed that “it looks like a movie bomb to me”. Throughout, the student says, he told everyone who would listen that the device was a clock, but police still led him out of school at 3pm, according to local reports, “his hands cuffed behind his back and an officer on each arm”.

A police spokesman told the Dallas Morning News that they didn’t believe Ahmed was building the clock out of pure curiosity. “We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb,” he said. “He kept maintaining it was a clock, but there was no broader explanation.”

When asked what other explanation “It could reasonably be mistaken as a device if left in a bathroom or under a car. The concern was, what was this thing built for? Do we take him into custody?”

In a letter sent out by Dan Cummings, head of MacArthur High School, the principal told parents that “Irving Police Department responded to a suspicious-looking item on campus yesterday. We are pleased to report that after the police department’s assessment, the item discovered at school did not pose a threat to your child’s safety.”

Cummings recommended parents “talk with your child about the Student Code of Conduct and specifically not bringing items to school that are prohibited. Also, this is a good time to remind your child how important it is to immediately report any suspicious items and/or suspicious behavior they observe to any school employee so we can address it right away. We will always take necessary precautions to protect our students.”

The case comes against the background of accusations of Islamaphobia in Irving, where the town’s mayor, Beth Van Duyne, became something of a national celebrity after she accused Islamic leaders of “bypassing American courts” by offering voluntary Shariah-law mediation to worshippers. The Council on American-Islamic Relations has said Ahmed’s case “raises a red flag for us: how Irving’s government entities are operating in the current climate … We’re still investigating, but it seems pretty egregious.”

The actions of the school and police have also struck a chord with hackers across the world, who view the treatment of Ahmed as emblematic of a clampdown on the freedom to tinker with electronics. The Electronic Frontiers Foundation tweeted that “Making clocks is not a crime”, while Wired Magazine responded by posting their own instructions on How to Make Your Own Homemade Clock That Isn’t a Bomb”.

Anil Dash, a prolific blogger and founder of Think-up, quoted Barack Obama saying “Together, let us unleash the imagination of our people, affirm that we are a Nation of makers, and ensure that the next great technological revolution happens right here in America.” Dash added that “many of us have been moved to offer support to Ahmed and his creativity,” and has started to crowdsource a list of ideas “that can help change the culture of Irving to be more welcoming to innovators of all kinds”.

Ahmed has received a three-day suspension from class. According to the Dallas Morning News, he has vowed never to take an invention to school again.


bbc wrote:Ahmed Mohamed told the Dallas Morning News that he loved engineering and wanted to show his teachers what he could do. He said his engineering teacher had congratulated him but advised him "not to show any other teachers".

The teenager said another teacher became aware of it when the device beeped during the lesson. "She was like - it looks like a bomb," he said. The homemade clock consisted of a circuit board with wires leading to a digital display.

Later in the day the boy was pulled out of class and interviewed by the school's headteachers and four police officers. The Dallas paper said he was led out in handcuffs, put into juvenile detention and fingerprinted.

Police spokesman James McLellan said that, throughout the interview, Ahmed had maintained that he built only a clock.


There's obviously a whole load of things the authorities did wrong here - I could easily have put this in the Dark News thread - but I'll focus on just one salient issue: Just as was it really necessary to body slam the tennis player into the ground rather than the five officers present first trying to make a peaceful arrest, was it really necessary to haul this boy away in handcuffs?

Do these guys really not see the damage they are doing to community relations by policing as if they are in a warzone?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:45 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:The core problem with the (reportedly LTL) firearm gadget is ultimately that it misses that the actual problem is a cultural one within U.S. police forces.

Body camera systems may force a shift in that culture, forcing police to think before they fire. The muzzle-ball thingy, whether it works as claimed or not, doesn't actually change the willingness to use force of any kind against any one. Even if the device is used as proscribed by the manufacturer, and it functions as they claim it does, it's the willingness to use force that will determine whether and under what circumstances the trigger is pulled a second time for full lethality.


This is the primary issue, yeah. If you don't address the cultural thing, everything else is pointless at best. There are other problems, but this is the main one.

Body cameras, we have reason to believe they help with accountability. Granted, I think we should go somewhat further, and start rolling back additional police powers(either in law or in practice) that go beyond reason.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:50 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
the guardian wrote:Police and school authorities in Irving, Texas are under fire after arresting a 14-year-old boy for bringing a homemade clock into school.

Ahmed Mohamed, an engineering hobbyist, made the timepiece and brought it to school in the hope of impressing teachers and fellow students in his first few weeks at MacArthur High School. But when he showed it to an English teacher after it beeped during her lesson, she told him it looked like a bomb.

Later in the day, the school’s principal and a police officer came to pull him out of class, and again the principal told Ahmed that “it looks like a movie bomb to me”. Throughout, the student says, he told everyone who would listen that the device was a clock, but police still led him out of school at 3pm, according to local reports, “his hands cuffed behind his back and an officer on each arm”.

A police spokesman told the Dallas Morning News that they didn’t believe Ahmed was building the clock out of pure curiosity. “We have no information that he claimed it was a bomb,” he said. “He kept maintaining it was a clock, but there was no broader explanation.”

When asked what other explanation “It could reasonably be mistaken as a device if left in a bathroom or under a car. The concern was, what was this thing built for? Do we take him into custody?”

In a letter sent out by Dan Cummings, head of MacArthur High School, the principal told parents that “Irving Police Department responded to a suspicious-looking item on campus yesterday. We are pleased to report that after the police department’s assessment, the item discovered at school did not pose a threat to your child’s safety.”

Cummings recommended parents “talk with your child about the Student Code of Conduct and specifically not bringing items to school that are prohibited. Also, this is a good time to remind your child how important it is to immediately report any suspicious items and/or suspicious behavior they observe to any school employee so we can address it right away. We will always take necessary precautions to protect our students.”

The case comes against the background of accusations of Islamaphobia in Irving, where the town’s mayor, Beth Van Duyne, became something of a national celebrity after she accused Islamic leaders of “bypassing American courts” by offering voluntary Shariah-law mediation to worshippers. The Council on American-Islamic Relations has said Ahmed’s case “raises a red flag for us: how Irving’s government entities are operating in the current climate … We’re still investigating, but it seems pretty egregious.”

The actions of the school and police have also struck a chord with hackers across the world, who view the treatment of Ahmed as emblematic of a clampdown on the freedom to tinker with electronics. The Electronic Frontiers Foundation tweeted that “Making clocks is not a crime”, while Wired Magazine responded by posting their own instructions on How to Make Your Own Homemade Clock That Isn’t a Bomb”.

Anil Dash, a prolific blogger and founder of Think-up, quoted Barack Obama saying “Together, let us unleash the imagination of our people, affirm that we are a Nation of makers, and ensure that the next great technological revolution happens right here in America.” Dash added that “many of us have been moved to offer support to Ahmed and his creativity,” and has started to crowdsource a list of ideas “that can help change the culture of Irving to be more welcoming to innovators of all kinds”.

Ahmed has received a three-day suspension from class. According to the Dallas Morning News, he has vowed never to take an invention to school again.


bbc wrote:Ahmed Mohamed told the Dallas Morning News that he loved engineering and wanted to show his teachers what he could do. He said his engineering teacher had congratulated him but advised him "not to show any other teachers".

The teenager said another teacher became aware of it when the device beeped during the lesson. "She was like - it looks like a bomb," he said. The homemade clock consisted of a circuit board with wires leading to a digital display.

Later in the day the boy was pulled out of class and interviewed by the school's headteachers and four police officers. The Dallas paper said he was led out in handcuffs, put into juvenile detention and fingerprinted.

Police spokesman James McLellan said that, throughout the interview, Ahmed had maintained that he built only a clock.


There's obviously a whole load of things the authorities did wrong here - I could easily have put this in the Dark News thread - but I'll focus on just one salient issue: Just as was it really necessary to body slam the tennis player into the ground rather than the five officers present first trying to make a peaceful arrest, was it really necessary to haul this boy away in handcuffs?

Do these guys really not see the damage they are doing to community relations by policing as if they are in a warzone?

link
link


From the Washington Post:

“During questioning, officers repeatedly brought up his last name, Mohamed said. When he tried to call his father, Mohamed said he was told he couldn’t speak to his parents until after the interrogation was over.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn ... to-school/

which is like....the most illegal thing ever. you can't question a minor without their guardians present....at all.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:52 pm UTC

Also, I'd like to protest the 'as if in a warzone' bit.

Soldiers are trained to take non-resisting folks into custody by giving verbal commands. Body slamming a complying individual is...counterproductive.


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