Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Sun May 06, 2018 11:00 pm UTC

http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/califo ... 91964.html

This is exactly why police shoot so many unarmed minorities; because their first reaction when suspecting a minority of a crime, say shoplifting $1.29 in merchandise (I say suspected because he didn't shoplift; the only crime actually committed was an officer threatening to murder someone), is to prepare to use deadly force. These assholes are a bunch of fucking psychopathic cowards.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 07, 2018 10:01 am UTC

Even if the guy WAS shoplifting, how the fuck is pulling a gun on a shoplifter justified?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Mon May 07, 2018 12:52 pm UTC

You see, there was no evidence that they did not have a gun, therefore it is safe to assume he is carrying an assault weapon and is willing to use it in order to get his candy.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Mon May 07, 2018 1:20 pm UTC

The part I "enjoyed" was the automatic presumption that the customer was a shoplifter. The cop knew he was getting change (told him to take it) so obviously he bought something, but obviously he didn't buy the Mentos he stuck in his pocket. He's so certain that when the cashier tells him they were purchased, he questions the cashier incredulously, "Are you sure?"
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Mon May 07, 2018 3:43 pm UTC

My favorite part is when he struggles to to pull a gun out of his pocket. If the dangerous candy thief was armed and wearing a holster, he would have had plenty of time to draw his weapon and shoot. Carrying a gun in your pocket is a fatal accident waiting to happen.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon May 07, 2018 3:56 pm UTC

And once again what you find appalling about a police misbehavior incident as the inefficiency in killing people of color. Wonderful.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 07, 2018 3:57 pm UTC

I'd like to think that an off duty police officer is, legally speaking, a private citizen, albeit one with higher standards due to training and one that may be auto-deputized in a crisis. Not in uniform? You are just another citizen with a gun...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon May 07, 2018 4:03 pm UTC

He proclaims himself as a police officer at the very beginning of the engagement.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon May 07, 2018 4:33 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:And once again what you find appalling about a police misbehavior incident as the inefficiency in killing people of color. Wonderful.


In fairness, there does appear to be something of a correlation between incompetence and racism. It may not be coincidence.

You see it with school shootings, too. They are unusually likely to experience jams, because they don't really bother with maintenance or malf drills. A highly hostile outlook and incompetence may be paired in general across a number of such situations.

CorruptUser wrote:I'd like to think that an off duty police officer is, legally speaking, a private citizen, albeit one with higher standards due to training and one that may be auto-deputized in a crisis. Not in uniform? You are just another citizen with a gun...


In theory, it should be treated as such. In practice....ugh. No, an off duty policeman will almost invariably resort to using his position as a trump card. It works, too, because everyone realizes that going up against a cop in a court of law is going to be rough. System's stacked in their favor.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon May 07, 2018 6:01 pm UTC

I want to see if I can make a proper comparison...

P1: A cop fired at an unarmed black teenager 30 times, 8 bullets hit
P2: Wow, that officer can't shoot right. The proper procedure should have been to fire in short bursts rather than spray and pray, he would have hit more often in the same time with fewer bullets

P1: A firefighter beat someone upside the head with a firehose
P2: what an amateur; when torturing someone you don't hit the head

P1: a neonazi was stomping someone's face
P2: using the wrong boots? Everyone knows you use reinforced rubber soled boots for stomping faces


Maybe the guy in question should focus more on not doing bad things rather than doing bad things better?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby dubsola » Tue May 08, 2018 4:47 am UTC

This happened a while ago, but was dredged up recently by the gutter press. One of the worst things I have ever read.

https://newmatilda.com/2018/05/08/new-low-channel-9-sunrise-30m-palm-island-uprising-payout/

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed May 09, 2018 2:22 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:And once again what you find appalling about a police misbehavior incident as the inefficiency in killing people of color. Wonderful.

What I find appalling is the blatant disregard for safety standards any course in proper firearm use would emphasis.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Wed May 09, 2018 2:40 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:In fairness, there does appear to be something of a correlation between incompetence and racism. It may not be coincidence.


This.

Beyond that lack of basic firearm safety and handling puts everyone around the "officer" at risk.

I think the more important part of the criticism though is that it's an indictment of the competence of the organization the individual officer works for. It certainly points to a lack of such fundamentally low-level training (how to safely handle the tools of one's job) that it becomes likely that anything of even slightly higher training (like how to read a situation, when force is appropriate and when it is not, how to engage with the community one is supposed to be protecting and serving instead of holing up in a fortress mentality, etc. etc, etc.) has most likely never been discussed anywhere in the department at any level.

The individual officer's inability to handle a weapon properly points to the larger organizational failure to train and enforce bare minimum requirements necessary for any workplace where dangerous equipment is a part of the job, much less one where that dangerous equipment are weapons.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Wed May 09, 2018 2:41 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:In fairness, there does appear to be something of a correlation between incompetence and racism. It may not be coincidence.

Do you have any sort of data to support this other than your own anecdotal observation? Because I can point to my anecdotal observations that I have uncles who are accomplished engineers, renowned orthopedic surgeons, or practicing doctors, and are racist.

jewish_scientist wrote:
Zohar wrote:And once again what you find appalling about a police misbehavior incident as the inefficiency in killing people of color. Wonderful.

What I find appalling is the blatant disregard for safety standards any course in proper firearm use would emphasis.


Yes, that is certainly the most critical issue the police needs to face, and the most glaring lesson from this incident. You are not helping your case.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed May 09, 2018 2:47 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Yes, that is certainly the most critical issue the police needs to face, and the most glaring lesson from this incident. You are not helping your case.

I am a little confused by this, particularly the underlined part. Can you please explain yourself again? Thank you.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 09, 2018 2:52 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
Zohar wrote:Yes, that is certainly the most critical issue the police needs to face, and the most glaring lesson from this incident. You are not helping your case.

I am a little confused by this, particularly the underlined part. Can you please explain yourself again? Thank you.


The biggest issue isn't that the police follow basic safety training when killing unarmed black people, but that they are killing unarmed black people. Like i said earlier, if a firefighter is beating people with a hose, you shouldnt be focusing on how they are using the wrong technique to beat someone with a hose.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Wed May 09, 2018 2:56 pm UTC

Police shouldn't even be drawing their weapons in many of these situations. The idea that all we have to do is make sure they are better able to use a firearm completely ignores the actual problems that need to be addressed.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed May 09, 2018 3:01 pm UTC

Ah, I see now. I think that the most (not all) cases of unarmed minorities being shot by police are the result of unconscious racism and that the most pragmatic solution to this is mandatory training designed to help officers overcome their biases. The reason I pointed out the improper handling of firearms is because it is a clear indication that training in general is not a priority of the police departments in question.

P.S. Thesh, part of firearm training is teaching when the use of a firearm is appropriate.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Wed May 09, 2018 3:10 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:P.S. Thesh, part of firearm training is teaching when the use of a firearm is appropriate.

It is not a bad safety practice to point a gun at someone. That is something that would conceivably be done during a policeman's training. Leaving a gun on a table is a bad safety practice, that should never be done. The problem in this case isn't that the police officer doesn't know how to use their gun. It's that they choose to use it. That is not safety, that's protocol. And your comment was specifically about not carrying his gun properly, not the bit about willing to murder a person.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Wed May 09, 2018 3:15 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:P.S. Thesh, part of firearm training is teaching when the use of a firearm is appropriate.


And yet your concern is that the police officer couldn't pull his gun out quickly enough, not that he pulled his gun at all.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eran_rathan » Wed May 09, 2018 7:06 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:Ah, I see now. I think that the most (not all) cases of unarmed minorities being shot by police are the result of unconscious racism and that the most pragmatic solution to this is mandatory training designed to help officers overcome their biases drastically change the culture of policing in the US.

(snip)

P.S. Thesh, part of firearm training is teaching when the use of a firearm is appropriate.



fixed the first part for you. and regarding the second part, a large portion of the problem is that the police are using their firearms in totally inappropriate times - shooting someone in the back as they run away; shooting a kid who the dispatch was told had a toy gun; shooting someone in their own backyard for having a cell phone; shooting someone for complying with orders as he sat calmly in his car when he was pulled over...
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 09, 2018 9:01 pm UTC

And what better way to change the culture than to add peer pressure by punishing the entire department whenever even a "good shoot" occurs, by for example having a "no kill" bonus of 1 weeks pay that disappears in years with a killing?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 10, 2018 3:48 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:In fairness, there does appear to be something of a correlation between incompetence and racism. It may not be coincidence.

Do you have any sort of data to support this other than your own anecdotal observation? Because I can point to my anecdotal observations that I have uncles who are accomplished engineers, renowned orthopedic surgeons, or practicing doctors, and are racist.


There's, unfortunately, not a whole ton of solid data on police incompetence as a whole. Even how many people they kill per year has significant variance depending on who does the counting, and that's something you'd really, really think ought to be kept track of.

It'd be nice to see if say, officers who do clearly unwarranted shootings had a stronger history of disciplinary, etc problems beforehand, but hard data is mostly absent. However, high scores on IQ tests are strongly correlated with lower rates of at least some racist things(Wodtke). Specific examples include associating black folks with perjorative terms(stupid, lazy), and disapproving of interracial marriage.

While that's not the same context as police officers shooting people, it does provide at least some evidence for racism being associated with incompetence.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu May 10, 2018 4:16 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:It'd be nice to see if say, officers who do clearly unwarranted shootings had a stronger history of disciplinary, etc problems beforehand, but hard data is mostly absent. However, high scores on IQ tests are strongly correlated with lower rates of at least some racist things(Wodtke). Specific examples include associating black folks with perjorative terms(stupid, lazy), and disapproving of interracial marriage.

Again, I would really appreciate citations for this. Correlating intelligence with morality is an incredibly troubling practice.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 10, 2018 4:37 pm UTC

Even apart from that, and even if "intelligence" were as easy to measure as IQ, there's a missing step of showing IQ correlates with competence at one's job, given how many jobs require skills that aren't measured by an IQ test.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Thu May 10, 2018 4:43 pm UTC

Here's another video that speaks volumes about the culture in the police force:

A police officer tries to direct a groundhog over a road it is trying to cross. When it doesn't comply and instead waddles towards him, he takes careful aim and shoots it.

Spoiler for content disturbing to some:
Spoiler:


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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 10, 2018 4:51 pm UTC

As much as I dont like random killings of wildlife, I dont think it sends the right message to punish the officer more than had the groundhog been a black teen.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 10, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:It'd be nice to see if say, officers who do clearly unwarranted shootings had a stronger history of disciplinary, etc problems beforehand, but hard data is mostly absent. However, high scores on IQ tests are strongly correlated with lower rates of at least some racist things(Wodtke). Specific examples include associating black folks with perjorative terms(stupid, lazy), and disapproving of interracial marriage.

Again, I would really appreciate citations for this. Correlating intelligence with morality is an incredibly troubling practice.


Direct link for the previous citation: https://academic.oup.com/socpro/article/63/1/21/1846173

Note that expressing fewer racist views does not mean they are inherently more motivated to go fix existing problems. This study is particularly good for contrasting what IQ does and does not get you. As a concrete example, higher IQ people are much more likely to support integrated schools, but are still unlikely to support a policy of extended bussing to enforce that.

gmalivuk wrote:Even apart from that, and even if "intelligence" were as easy to measure as IQ, there's a missing step of showing IQ correlates with competence at one's job, given how many jobs require skills that aren't measured by an IQ test.


High IQ correlates with financial success, employment, and educational success. I'm not sure what metric you're proposing for competent, but generally competence is related to education, and we would expect to see that competent people are more often employed and are more financially successful than those who are not.

Now, this is not specific to police, but end of the day, cops are people, and it is likely they are subject to similar trends to the rest of this.

Also, rejecting police candidates for too high of an IQ, as is done in some locations, has interesting implications when coupled with the above.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 10, 2018 5:01 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I'm not sure what metric you're proposing for competent

In exactly the quote you included in your own post, gmalivuk wrote:there's a missing step of showing IQ correlates with competence at one's job


High IQ correlates with financial success, employment, and educational success.
So, none of those, except arguably employment, to the extent that unemployed people generally lost a previous job and that might happen due to incompetence.
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Tyndmyr wrote:Direct link for the previous citation: https://academic.oup.com/socpro/article/63/1/21/1846173


Tyndmyr: High IQ correlates with less overt racism.
Zohar: [citation needed]
Tyndmyr: *links to a study that didn't involve any IQ scores*
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 10, 2018 7:01 pm UTC

You're pedantically nitpicking at the specific type of intelligence tests administered, and ignoring the results?

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10. ... 7611421206 if you prefer.

Out of curiosity, if you think that racism is a belief of the intelligent and the competent, why? What narrative do you have for your worldview here?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 10, 2018 7:24 pm UTC

The problem with assuming that racism is the domain of the ill informed or the mentally deficient is that "othering" the racist blinds us to the racism within our own subgroups. My mother is smart, she is well informed, therefore she cant be a racist. I am smart, I obviously am not racist, my biases against minorities are wholly legitimate based on clothing and speech patterns which obviously have nothing to do with race because if they did that would be racism which I obviously don't have.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu May 10, 2018 8:17 pm UTC

So racism can't correlate with intelligence because that would imply that some people are less racist than other and that contradicts some item of dogma?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 10, 2018 8:27 pm UTC

My point is that stereotypes are dangerous, not that they are wrong.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 11, 2018 12:07 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
You're pedantically nitpicking at the specific type of intelligence tests administered, and ignoring the results?
Yes, pointing out that there's a difference between an IQ test and a 10-question vocabulary quiz is just pedantic nitpicking. Well spotted.

I prefer websites that actually load, but I guess whatever floats your boat.

Out of curiosity, if you think that racism is a belief of the intelligent and the competent, why? What narrative do you have for your worldview here?
Unlike you, apparently, I don't have a narrative for my worldview that ties racism to intelligence or competence one way or the other. Maybe those things correlate, maybe they don't. Which is why it's annoying when you try to push your own narrative with a study that doesn't actually show what you said it shows, and doesn't use the methodology you said it used. (You haven't even shown that IQ correlates with how competent at their job someone is.)

If my "narrative" has anything to do with this, it's that promoting spurious correlations can be dangerous because it lets people hide behind bullshit like, "Well if people were just better educated racism would decrease," as though scientific racism hasn't been a whole Thing.

Pfhorrest wrote:
So racism can't correlate with intelligence because that would imply that some people are less racist than other and that contradicts some item of dogma?
Huh? Some people are less racist than others, and I don't have any dogma that includes anything about that.

Racism could correlate with intelligence, just as many things correlate. The problem is that Tyndmyr hasn't actually shown such a thing. The study he described simply showed that white people who did better on a vocabulary quiz were less likely to say or openly agree with overtly racist things.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 11, 2018 2:11 am UTC

Oh, I am sure that, on average, racists tend to be less intelligent than egalitarians. But I'm also sure that there is a huge amount of variation, and there are plenty of extremely intelligent racists and some drooling morons who don't have a prejudiced bone in their body. Nobel prize winner James Watson, of Watson and Crick fame, is a walking embarrassment. Francis Galton is most famous for his work in Eugenics (though surprisingly not anti-semitic), but he was the most important figure in all of statistics and meteorology; Karl Pearson was his even more racist but less competent protege, but since Pearson didn't invent a new form of racism himself that hack gets to keep his name on every statistics textbook.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri May 11, 2018 4:55 am UTC

What we all know is our Black Men and Women die by Police more than White Men and Women die by Police.
This is a Fact. If there is something that can Stop these killings, I want that something to happen.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat May 12, 2018 9:15 pm UTC

Kansas criminalizes officers having sex with people in their custody, after the legislature discovered this wasn't already a thing.

It turns out that in the overwhelming majority of states it's still technically legal for cops to hump arrestees, because people in handcuffs and facing jail time are totally in the right state of mind to give consent, bro. And when the women turn around and claim coercion/rape, well, it's he said she said, or in the case where it's multiple cops and one woman it's they said she said.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sociotard » Sun May 13, 2018 8:59 pm UTC

I put together a chart for an argument on another forum and thought I'd share. The US has more police shootings than any other developed country, but it also has the most shootings of police. That trend continues on a state to state basis. I'd say this shows we can't figure out how to solve police violence until we can also solve violence on police.

I'm pretty confident about most of the data, except "rate of gun ownership". Evidently it was found by survey (because the government can't track it) and people are as honest on gun ownership questions as they are on penis length questions. I mean, any study that says Hawaii has a higher rate of gun ownership than Texas . . .

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun May 13, 2018 9:30 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:people are as honest on gun ownership questions as they are on penis length questions


But the barrel length is totally 8 inches...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 14, 2018 1:46 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:I'd say this shows we can't figure out how to solve police violence until we can also solve violence on police.

"These two things kinda happen together, therefore I think we should focus on the orders-of-magnitude less serious problem that will be extremely complex to solve first, and only after taking care of that should we look at the much more serious problem that could be greatly reduced simply by holding police accountable for the homicides they commit."
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