Police misbehavior thread

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Tyndmyr
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:33 pm UTC

A marvelous new discovery! Debtor's Prison!

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sardia
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:51 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:A marvelous new discovery! Debtor's Prison!

The sad thing is we posted about this a few months back, and a year before as well

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:08 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:A marvelous new discovery! Debtor's Prison!

The sad thing is we posted about this a few months back, and a year before as well


Yeah. Kind of a trend, just like the police thing. I'm sure we'll have more to post about soon enough.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:07 am UTC

Ok, what exactly is anyone gaining from the "pay to stay" thing? They can't be collecting a lot of revenue off of it, and even if they got anything it's still a fraction of the cost of keeping people in prison.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:39 am UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:The American economic system has actually found out how to mine resources from poor people? THAT'S BRILLIANT!

Now we just need more poor people and we'll all be rich!
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Diadem
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:44 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Ok, what exactly is anyone gaining from the "pay to stay" thing? They can't be collecting a lot of revenue off of it, and even if they got anything it's still a fraction of the cost of keeping people in prison.

The piece elasto quotes gives some good numbers:

But he[Dale Osborne, the jail administrator at the Multi-County Correctional Facility] admits that while the programme bills for about $2m a year, they collect only about $60,000-$70,000. That's about a 3% collection rate. "If we lost the ability to have a pay-for-stay programme here I'm not going to have any huge heartache over the loss of it," he says.

The sum that is able to be collected doesn't go straight into the county coffers, either - the jail contracts with a company called Intellitech Corporation, which acts as a collections agent, sending letters and making phone calls to former inmates. If the debtor sends a check to Intellitech or arranges a payment plan with them, 30% of the money goes to the county and 70% goes to Intellitech.

So yeah, they collect less than 1% of what they bill for.

It seems to me that the only people profiting from this are the owners of Intellitech and similar collection agents.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and predict that these people are also the major campaigners for this kind of 'pay-to-stay' legislation.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:56 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Ok, what exactly is anyone gaining from the "pay to stay" thing? They can't be collecting a lot of revenue off of it, and even if they got anything it's still a fraction of the cost of keeping people in prison.

The theory behind pay to stay is that the convicted should pay for their own prison incarceration; or more properly: why should the public pay to incarcerate someone who committed a crime? It was that person's antisocial act; make them pay. After all, a person can be fined plus incarcerated for a crime, which pretty much boils down to the same thing.

I'm not an expert, but as far as I can tell, the fees charged don't seem to actually cover the stay; only offset it somewhat. This article, presents as an examplar of abuse, the pay to stay debt for prisoner Johnnie Melton, which was $19,925.89. That was for a stay from 11/28/2011 to 1/8/2013, which is 408 days; $48.84 per day. I am quite sure that did not cover his full incarceration costs. This article, for example, sets the annual average incarceration for a prisoner at $31,307 per year; $85.77 per day.

I deplore the fines, because it is clear that the system is using fines as an alternative to more general taxation; especially where it is clear that certain groups are unfairly bearing the burden. I don't see pay to stay in the same light; at least, not as it seems to be applied at this point. It does need to be watched, though, to be sure it doesn't become a government profit center in its own right, which would make it a problem.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:29 pm UTC

That's the argument for it. The argument against it is that it mainly hurts those trying to earn an honest living after prison, so encourages recidivism, and so ends up more expensive for the taxpayer in the long run than simply allowing a fresh start.

Those who remain in poverty obviously won't pay anything. Neither will those with only undocumented/illegal sources of income after prison. Only those who seek a legal income will find themselves with this millstone around their neck.

The judge should be the one setting the penalty for any crime committed: He may decide a fine, prison time or both - taking the circumstances of the accused and his crime fully into account. Sending the prisoner a bill for room and board is a kind of 'extra-judicial' punishment that the judge has no ability to mitigate.

Ultimately it's all about what the judicial system should be for. Countries like the Nordic states focus on rehabilitation and so have low offending and reoffending rates. Counties like the US focus on retribution and so once someone falls into the system, things like this conspire multiplicatively to create a downward spiral that many find impossible to overcome.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:41 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:The theory behind pay to stay is that the convicted should pay for their own prison incarceration; or more properly: why should the public pay to incarcerate someone who committed a crime?
Well, OTOH it is society (the lawmakers, judge, and jury) that decided that what they did was a crime. So, society bears some of the cost of that decision too. It's not at all clear cut. Society makes up many arbitrary rules, and enforces them arbitrarily.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:46 pm UTC

so, already known info: marshal who shot the kid in Louisiana likely had beef with the dad BUT, more importantly there was body cam footage, and the lawyers who viewed it said that few had his hands raised the entire time and apparently the story that they were serving a warrant but no active warrants were found
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:17 pm UTC

The issue is that if a person is in prison, they can't pay for it because they are currently locked up.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:51 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Ok, what exactly is anyone gaining from the "pay to stay" thing? They can't be collecting a lot of revenue off of it, and even if they got anything it's still a fraction of the cost of keeping people in prison.

The theory behind pay to stay is that the convicted should pay for their own prison incarceration; or more properly: why should the public pay to incarcerate someone who committed a crime?

That's absurd. You're completely twisting things here. A prison is not a service rendered to the convict. It's a service rendered to the public. Of course the public should pay.
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sardia
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:13 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
Coyne wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Ok, what exactly is anyone gaining from the "pay to stay" thing? They can't be collecting a lot of revenue off of it, and even if they got anything it's still a fraction of the cost of keeping people in prison.

The theory behind pay to stay is that the convicted should pay for their own prison incarceration; or more properly: why should the public pay to incarcerate someone who committed a crime?

That's absurd. You're completely twisting things here. A prison is not a service rendered to the convict. It's a service rendered to the public. Of course the public should pay.
the real question is, is it a crime to be unable to pay for the crime of being unable to pay?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:29 am UTC

You know, if you can't afford to pay, you shouldn't get the service in the first place, which is why only rich people should go to prison. /sarcasm

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:04 am UTC

Like the good old days, the rich go to prison and the poor get hanged ! In a twist of "nothing new under the sun" under that system the rich were billed for their stay then too if I recall correctly

Man it sucks to be back from holiday...

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:17 pm UTC

The rich also got beheaded while the poor were hanged. Gotta love the egalitarianism of Madame Guillotine; beheadings for everyone regardless of social status!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:15 pm UTC

Woman locks herself out of her apartment, calls a locksmith to get in. A neighbour sees them and calls the police. 19 officers show up, plus some big police dogs and she is greeted at her apartment by gunpoint.

On the plus side, the woman was neither arrested nor injured in the incident. The response from the police department has been confusing: No report of the incident was apparently filed, and when asked for the names of the officers by the woman, and later, by the Washington Post, the lists didn't match and didn't even include the same number of officers.

There are some concerns that the incident may have been racially motivated, as the woman and locksmith were both black in a predominantly white neighbourhood (although, according to the 911 call that was placed, they were misidentified as Hispanic).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:23 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:There are some concerns that the incident may have been racially motivated, as the woman and locksmith were both black in a predominantly white neighbourhood (although, according to the 911 call that was placed, they were misidentified as Hispanic).


*shrug* Could be just a marginally different, but similar bias. Anti-hispanic bias is definitely a thing in the southwest, depend on where you're at.

In any case, it's quite probable that even if the caller had genuinely good intent, there's a bit of bias on the part of the cops. Most calls don't get over a dozen officers. Even if you had a large response because you believed something awful was happening, "hey, I live here, here's my ID" is pretty normal. Maaybe dial down the paranoia at that point? At least put the guns away?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:35 pm UTC

My brother in law knew a guy who was mugged and called the police, and twenty officers showed up to catch the guy. Turned out the description was the same as a suspect who had mugged and murdered someone a few hours prior (it was the same guy). So there are reasons for a dozen police to show up for a mundane crime.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby DSenette » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:46 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:My brother in law knew a guy who was mugged and called the police, and twenty officers showed up to catch the guy. Turned out the description was the same as a suspect who had mugged and murdered someone a few hours prior (it was the same guy). So there are reasons for a dozen police to show up for a mundane crime.

an active mugging and a B&E aren't exactly the same type of mundane.

also, since your brother in law, gave a description of the guy what did the mugging....they already had enough evidence for a strong response ("hey, the description that guy just gave sure does sound a hell of a lot like that guy who killed someone doesn't it?").....someone calling and saying that there were some suspicious Hispanics (not likely the word used on the phone) is quite a bit different.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:47 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:My brother in law knew a guy who was mugged and called the police, and twenty officers showed up to catch the guy. Turned out the description was the same as a suspect who had mugged and murdered someone a few hours prior (it was the same guy). So there are reasons for a dozen police to show up for a mundane crime.


There are, sure. But I'm not seeing any such explanation here, and if the police had an easy out that explained their actions, you'd think they'd mention it.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:13 pm UTC

A judge has ruled that the Chicago police must release dashcam video of the shooting of Laquan McDonald. He was shot 16 times, apparently while walking away from the officer. The city paid $5 million to settle the claim and apparently expected that to allow them to keep the video secret.

link

Usual loss of evidence: The audio from the scene has been lost, and the police apparently deleted 86 minutes of video from a surveillance camera at a restaurant.

A quote on the surviving video:

“I have not seen the video,” said Davis, the veteran cop, IPRA whistleblower, and police-accountability advocate. “But I’ve talked to people who have seen it, and they were horrified by what they saw.

“Grown men were brought to tears.”


(Re that last statement: what pathos!)
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:09 pm UTC

Just because some cops cried at a video doesn't mean anything. There are cops who think black people are magically/demonically strong and can only be brought down by a machine gun fire. And they think that every black guy is a thug hitman out to get them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:12 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Just because some cops cried at a video doesn't mean anything. There are cops who think black people are magically/demonically strong and can only be brought down by a machine gun fire. And they think that every black guy is a thug hitman out to get them.


My god man, they had so many tears in their eyes, they stumbled over each other, and deleted the video. Tragic.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:17 pm UTC

If anyone doesn't get it, the idea that cops are tough robojudge Dredd is very wrong. Their tolerance for fear or disgust is about the same as anyone else, or maybe even worse because the public hasn't been indoctrinated into fearing everyone dark skinned.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:30 am UTC

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the shooting of Jamar Clark yet. It happened last Sunday. Black Lives Matter protests are going on in Minneapolis now.

A number of people watched the incident unfold—it was across the street from an Elks Lodge—and several of them say that Clark was handcuffed when he was shot in the head. Police insist he was not cuffed.

“The young man was just laying there; he was not resisting arrest,” a man named Teto Wilson who said he saw the incident was quoted as saying by the local NAACP chapter. “Two officers were surrounding the victim on the ground, an officer maneuvered his body around to shield Jamar’s body, and I heard the shot go off.”

The state’s Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, the state’s top investigative agency, has taken over the case, and Mayor Betsy Hodges also requested an investigation by the Department of Justice’s Civil Rights Division. NAACP leaders welcomed that request, saying they didn’t trust local law-enforcement to investigate itself.

Black Lives Matters protestors have been out in force in Minneapolis since Clark was shot. On Monday night, a group staged a demonstration on Interstate 94, bringing traffic to a halt. Police arrested 51 people before the highway reopened. Activists also rallied outside the police precinct close to where Clark was shot. They have demanded that police release video of the shooting. Authorities, meanwhile, initially wouldn’t even say if there was footage, either from dashboard cameras or from body cameras. (A September report by a city police-oversight commission recommended that body cameras be activated during all community contact.) Bystander footage from shortly after the shooting is available. On Tuesday, the BCA said it has obtained several videos but that “none … captured the event in its entirety.”

[Superintendent Drew] Evans said the videos came from the ambulance, a public housing building, cellphones of bystanders and a police mobile video station. There is no video from any police squad car or officer body cameras. The BCA is in the process of working with the nearby Elks Club lodge to examine its exterior video.

But Evans also said that no images will be released until after the investigation is complete—which could mean months.


It's unfortunate that such stories don't get much attention unless the protests turn violent.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:01 pm UTC

A reserve officer in Millis, Massachusetts, Bryan Green, drove his police-issued SUV into the woods and shot three holes into it. Then he drove it to the center of town, got out, fired three shots toward the woods to fake an exchange of fire, and called in a false report that he had been fired on. This police ordered the the community indoors and the schools on lockdown while 70 officers, a helicopter, and armored cars sought the non-existent attacker.

link

But that's not the end of the story. The same day, he called in a bomb hoax to a local school. Six indictments: hoax bomb threat, misleading a criminal investigation, discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling, making a false police report, willful destruction of property, and wanton destruction of property.

link

It's interesting that they seemed to think he was great until this point; selectmen had approved his reserve officer status and he was scheduled to attend police academy to become a full officer. Seems a good thing that he is now out.

I'm curious about his motivation. Attention on him, similar to Munchausen by proxy syndrome? Expansion of the local police authority?
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:22 pm UTC

Oh Chicago, I am so disappointed. What utter lip service - cop is only held accountable when the video was going to be leaked...
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:55 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Oh Chicago, I am so disappointed. What utter lip service - cop is only held accountable when the video was going to be leaked...

Yea the prosecutor is a complete shill for the cops union. They only did it to save their own skins.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:30 pm UTC

Bryan Green, who I first mentioned three posts above, has been found dead in his home. Not being investigated as a homicide.

(Which is interesting; if he committed suicide, that's homicide. So does this mean natural causes? Maybe he was sick? Hmmm....)
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:13 am UTC

Coyne wrote:(Which is interesting; if he committed suicide, that's homicide. So does this mean natural causes? Maybe he was sick? Hmmm....)


I've never heard the term homicide used to include suicide; usually it only refers to one person being killed by another.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:43 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Oh Chicago, I am so disappointed. What utter lip service - cop is only held accountable when the video was going to be leaked...


Disappointed? Did you honestly expect anything better?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:27 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
Coyne wrote:(Which is interesting; if he committed suicide, that's homicide. So does this mean natural causes? Maybe he was sick? Hmmm....)


I've never heard the term homicide used to include suicide; usually it only refers to one person being killed by another.


I oopsed. I once read something that said homicide was death at hands of a human, self or other. Apparently it was wrong: The link below distinguishes suicide and homicide.

Cause, Mechanism and Manner of Death

Still odd they wouldn't say suicide though...if that's what it was. Probably the usual delicacy used with fellow officers.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby leady » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:04 am UTC

This morning a police car harassed me by posting a message on its rear window to turn my lights on (it was raining in daylight)

I didn't know they could do that!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zamfir » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:49 am UTC

Don't be a dick, leady

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:29 pm UTC

I traveled this turkey day. At my train station, the police were out including one with an assault rifle. That made me feel not safe. When I got to Penn station, there were swarms of army guys with assault rifles. That made me feel more safe. I can't quite figure out why that is. Do I trust army guys more with assault rifles than I do the police? Even though the army guys could be teenagers just out of high school while the cop was a guy with a decade of experience? Or maybe it's that the police shouldn't be the military?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:34 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I traveled this turkey day. At my train station, the police were out including one with an assault rifle. That made me feel not safe. When I got to Penn station, there were swarms of army guys with assault rifles. That made me feel more safe. I can't quite figure out why that is. Do I trust army guys more with assault rifles than I do the police? Even though the army guys could be teenagers just out of high school while the cop was a guy with a decade of experience? Or maybe it's that the police shouldn't be the military?


Army guys with army gear is normal. Cops with cop gear is normal. Neither should really be doing the job of the other.

I'd feel the same way. The army guys are vastly less likely to...take an interest in me. It simply isn't what they do. So, if something happened in the vicinity, you'd gain the benefit of having folks around who would likely help, but they aren't going to mess with you otherwise. I feel similarly. Completely relaxed around hundreds of armed military folks, but one cop driving behind me, and I'm paranoid.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:04 pm UTC

In a shocking carriage of justice, former police officer convicted of sexually assaulting or raping 13 black women. He could face up to 260 years in prison.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:44 pm UTC

He shouldn't have pressed his luck by going beyond 12...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:52 am UTC

Exit the vampires' castle.


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