Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:32 pm UTC

You mean "Cop provides support to local community and helps solve systemic challenges a local is facing"?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:07 pm UTC

Pretty much. Teeeechnically selective enforcement of the law can be illegal, but it's nice to have some more heartwarming stories from time to time.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SDK » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:35 pm UTC

I particularly liked what his superior had to say on the matter.

Staff sergeant Paul Bois wrote:"Arresting him [the 18-year-old] wouldn't have been in the best interests of anyone," he said.

"I reacted very positively to the news; all issues were resolved by the action the officer took.

"It reiterates our goal of being positive role models in the community."

Police officers buying shirts for every shoplifter is obviously not a good solution on the whole, but if we all were willing to chip in to buy shirts for those who need them, now we're getting somewhere.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:07 pm UTC

This is (if applied properly) one of the advantages of the "public interest" test for UK criminal prosecutions, which actually bakes these sort of cases into judicial procedure. Basically if the Crown Prosecution Service (roughly the equivalent of state or federal prosecutors offices) decides (according to a detailed set of criteria) that bringing a case isn't in the public interest they aren't supposed to bring a case. Not sure which (if any) other countries have a similar system.

I'm hopeful (though I have no evidence) that the knowledge that their case would likely be thrown out at the public interest test stage provides a nudge to even police inclined to be arseholes to not pursue counter-productive arrests like this would have been (though obviously buying the guy the clothes is an even better response!).

Edit: I suppose this is something that is meant to be addressed by the pardon system in the US, though that seems a pretty bass ackwards way of going about things

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zamfir » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:19 pm UTC

Not sure which (if any) other countries have a similar system

Dutch system has the same principle, called a 'policy sepot' - public prosecution can decide not to pursue a case, if this is deemed against the 'general interest'. The typical case is a relatively minor offense where the defendant has already suffered large consequences.

This is strictly separated from a 'technical sepot' , where the prosecution decides not to pursue a case because they estimate that the case will be unsuccessful.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Netreker0 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:09 am UTC

Quercus wrote:This is (if applied properly) one of the advantages of the "public interest" test for UK criminal prosecutions, which actually bakes these sort of cases into judicial procedure. Basically if the Crown Prosecution Service (roughly the equivalent of state or federal prosecutors offices) decides (according to a detailed set of criteria) that bringing a case isn't in the public interest they aren't supposed to bring a case. Not sure which (if any) other countries have a similar system.


The U.S. has this under the broad umbrella of prosecutorial discretion, which also lets you consider the likelihood the case will succeed and how much it will cost to do so.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:22 am UTC

Netreker0 wrote:The U.S. has this under the broad umbrella of prosecutorial discretion, which also lets you consider the likelihood the case will succeed and how much it will cost to do so.


True, but the pertinent difference for me is that prosecutorial discretion (if I've understood it correctly) lets prosecutors choose not to pursue a case for pretty much any reason they like, whereas the public interest test compels the CPS not to take cases in very specific and defined circumstances (there's also an evidential test, which deals with the likelihood of the case succeeding). Prosecutorial discretion could include a proper public interest test, but equally it could just be "we prosecute people we don't like, and not people we do". Or are there defined public interest rules that apply to most prosecutors, just set in a more decentralised way than in the UK (e.g. by individual public attorneys offices)?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Netreker0 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:36 am UTC

Quercus wrote:
Netreker0 wrote:The U.S. has this under the broad umbrella of prosecutorial discretion, which also lets you consider the likelihood the case will succeed and how much it will cost to do so.


True, but the pertinent difference for me is that prosecutorial discretion (if I've understood it correctly) lets prosecutors choose not to pursue a case for pretty much any reason they like, whereas the public interest test compels the CPS not to take cases in very specific and defined circumstances (there's also an evidential test, which deals with the likelihood of the case succeeding).


If you're trying to argue there's a meaningful difference, it might be helpful to specify what country you're talking about and give a specific example of the kind of law you're talking about then. In the U.S., there is a common law public interest justification that can be raised as an affirmative defense. That means backing off on a "public interest" case is pretty much mandatory, because the alternative means filing a case that you know you'll most likely lose when the defendant prevails on the affirmative defense. From what information you've given me so far, it sounds like the difference is procedural, not substantive.

As you've explained it, in your system, there is a test, and depending on the results, you might be forced to dismiss a case. In the U.S., there is essentially a test, and if the defendant demonstrates that he passes that test, the judge is forced to dismiss a case, and since the prosecutor knows precisely what the test is before hand, he has the option of either dismissing the case, or pursuing it knowing that he will lose and (depending on jurisdiction) possibly face Bar sanctions or subject his office to paying some of the defendant's costs. From a procedural standpoint, in the U.S. the prosecutor can technically ignore what the test says and prosecute anyway. From a practical standpoint, there are strong incentives not to do so, and even if those incentives are ignored, the defendant will probably be acquitted.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:45 am UTC

Netreker0 wrote:If you're trying to argue there's a meaningful difference, it might be helpful to specify what country you're talking about and give a specific example of the kind of law you're talking about then.


Ah, sorry - I mentioned in a previous comment that I was talking about the Crown Prosecution Service in the UK, but didn't keep the quote chain going, so it wasn't clear in my later post. The specific rules I'm talking about (not actually sure if they are enshrined in legislation or not) are listed here.

In the U.S., there is a common law public interest justification that can be raised as an affirmative defense. That means backing off on a "public interest" case is pretty much mandatory, because the alternative means filing a case that you know you'll most likely lose when the defendant prevails on the affirmative defense. From what information you've given me so far, it sounds like the difference is procedural, not substantive.

I wasn't aware of the affirmative public interest defense in the US. In that case the difference does appear to be merely procedural. Thanks for enlightening me, and apologies for banging on about what turned out to be a distinction without a difference.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Netreker0 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:53 am UTC

Quercus wrote:
Netreker0 wrote:If you're trying to argue there's a meaningful difference, it might be helpful to specify what country you're talking about and give a specific example of the kind of law you're talking about then.


Ah, sorry - I mentioned in a previous comment that I was talking about the Crown Prosecution Service in the UK, but didn't keep the quote chain going, so it wasn't clear in my later post. The specific rules I'm talking about (not actually sure if they are enshrined in legislation or not) are listed here.

In the U.S., there is a common law public interest justification that can be raised as an affirmative defense. That means backing off on a "public interest" case is pretty much mandatory, because the alternative means filing a case that you know you'll most likely lose when the defendant prevails on the affirmative defense. From what information you've given me so far, it sounds like the difference is procedural, not substantive.

I wasn't aware of the affirmative public interest defense in the US. In that case the difference does appear to be merely procedural. Thanks for enlightening me, and apologies for banging on about what turned out to be a distinction without a difference.


Okay, your idea of public interest is actually different than ours. Our public interest defense is focused on the crime itself. For example, Snowden made the argument that his breaking the law barring the leaking of classified documents should be excused because the criminal act itself advanced the public interest. Your public interest test actually focuses more on the factors considered more broadly under prosecutorial discretion, and in fact I was wrong, and we actually do have a lot more discretion here. While there might be political pressure to avoid a case that would be, for example, extremely expensive to win and would yield only a small fine, there are no rules strictly compelling a prosecutor to do so. In fact, here in the U.S., there is often significant public pressure the other way: People tend to dislike the idea of letting a probably guilty person go because he has the capacity to put up a very costly defense.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:55 pm UTC

Just looking for articles about those weapon caches the police say they couldn't find, and I stumbled onto this article about the police not being able to find something ... despite trying very hard ...

Texas Cops Spent 11 Minutes Searching a Woman's Vagina, Found No Drugs

After searching her car, police claimed to have found .02 ounces of marijuana. That was enough, they apparently felt, to justify a full-body cavity search. When Corley refused to remove her clothes in the dimly lit parking lot where she was being detained, one of the officers threw her to the ground, pushed her partially underneath her own car, and yanked Corley's pants down to her ankles. For the next 11 minutes, dash cam video of the incident shows, she was held down by two officers while being searched. Corley claims that fingers repeatedly probed her vagina and that the officers ignored her protests. A third officer stood nearby holding a flashlight. No drugs were found on Corley's person.

Two of the officers who conducted the search, William Strong and Ronaldine Pierre, were indicted in June 2016 by a Harris County grand jury on charges of official oppression, but those charges were dropped last week.


..... and just to keep it really classy:
The full dash-cam video was released to the Houston Chronicle and can be viewed here.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Netreker0 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:29 pm UTC

On the topic of the low bar for police, and in all fairness to them, they did come out against Trump's statements about roughing up suspects so... yay, progress?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sociotard » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:38 pm UTC

“We only shoot black people,” Georgia cop assures woman during traffic stop

On the one hand I get that the cop was trying to reassure her, saying anything to get her to comply so he wouldn't have to arrest her, and that he doesn't necessarily think it is more okay to shoot black people. (I kind of wish the woman had brought up that Australian woman in Minnesota)

Still, awful thing to say.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:45 pm UTC

The fact that the woman was afraid to move her hands lest being shot is indicative of what is wrong with the US police.
Where i live, nobody would ever think of being afraid of a traffic cop, it's just a friendly chat with someone doing their job. None of that "hands on the hood" shit.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sociotard » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:52 pm UTC

How often do people where you live shoot cops making traffic stops? (I think that's part of what causes the problem here. We talk a lot about police misbehavior, shooting unarmed people etc, but that is the other half of the equation; there's a reason US cops are a little more shooty than they aught to be)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:29 pm UTC

US cops are shot less frequently than US taxi drivers, and are shot far less frequently than they themselves shoot people. And both of those differences become even more extreme when you restrict it to cops being shot during traffic stops.

Cops are killed by someone in the car they detain about once every two months. Cops kill people about three times a day.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:33 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:How often do people where you live shoot cops making traffic stops? (I think that's part of what causes the problem here. We talk a lot about police misbehavior, shooting unarmed people etc, but that is the other half of the equation; there's a reason US cops are a little more shooty than they aught to be)

Um - never? It certainly would make the news.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sonar1313 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:29 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:US cops are shot less frequently than US taxi drivers, and are shot far less frequently than they themselves shoot people. And both of those differences become even more extreme when you restrict it to cops being shot during traffic stops.

Cops are killed by someone in the car they detain about once every two months. Cops kill people about three times a day.

Having recently been accused of leaving out a whole truckload of context, I can't help but do a little turnabout. A great many people killed by police really need killing. Largely because they're legitimately a threat to someone else.

This doesn't mean that:

- that applies in all cases
- other cases are OK
- gray areas don't exist and those are completely OK for shooting too

But juxtaposing one context-free stat with another very specific, context-laden one isn't very helpful.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:49 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:Having recently been accused of leaving out a whole truckload of context, I can't help but do a little turnabout. A great many people killed by police really need killing. Largely because they're legitimately a threat to someone else.

This doesn't mean that:

- that applies in all cases
- other cases are OK
- gray areas don't exist and those are completely OK for shooting too

But juxtaposing one context-free stat with another very specific, context-laden one isn't very helpful.
Police in the US, on average, kill around a thousand people every year. Police in other Western countries typically don't break double-digits (heck, several countries don't even break single digits). Do you think people in the US just need more killing than anyone else?

Anyone who doesn't think the police in the US aren't flat-out murdering segments of our population isn't paying attention -- and either needs to start paying attention, or just stay the hell out of the discussion.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sociotard » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:19 pm UTC

Lets see, the intentional homicide rate in the US is 4.88 per 100,000, compared to 1.68 for Canada, 0.92 for UK, and 0.85 for Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

So yes, the US is a violent, dangerous bunch and more of us need shot than Germans.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:24 pm UTC

sociotard wrote:Lets see, the intentional homicide rate in the US is 4.88 per 100,000, compared to 1.68 for Canada, 0.92 for UK, and 0.85 for Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

So yes, the US is a violent, dangerous bunch and more of us need shot than Germans.
You think the appropriate response to an increase in homicide rates is for us to murder more people? Are you looking to be a police officer in the US? Because it sounds like you'd fit right in!

On a more serious note: The question isn't "Are people more violent in the US?"; the question is "Is the risk American police officers face significant enough to justify their escalated response, and does their response help alleviate this risk?"

When you look at actual numbers, the clear answer to both parts of that question is 'NOPE'.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:11 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:You think the appropriate response to an increase in homicide rates is for us to murder more people?


It worked for Florida.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:41 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:You think the appropriate response to an increase in homicide rates is for us to murder more people? Are you looking to be a police officer in the US? Because it sounds like you'd fit right in!

If you murder enough people, the homicide rate drops to divide by zero error.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:45 am UTC

sociotard wrote:Lets see, the intentional homicide rate in the US is 4.88 per 100,000, compared to 1.68 for Canada, 0.92 for UK, and 0.85 for Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

So yes, the US is a violent, dangerous bunch and more of us need shot than Germans.

Even if that calculus is reasonable (which seems very unlikely, as detailed by other posters above), it seems hard to justify a 10 to 100 fold greater police lethality by citing a five fold greater homocide rate. Unless you're arguing that the police should respond to violence with exponentially greater violence in return.

Ignore this - as Chen points out the police killing figures aren't corrected for population.
Last edited by Quercus on Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:05 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby speising » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:05 am UTC

You know that their motto is "To protect ourselves and to serve our interests"?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:42 am UTC

Quercus wrote:Even if that calculus is reasonable (which seems very unlikely, as detailed by other posters above), it seems hard to justify a 10 to 100 fold greater police lethality by citing a five fold greater homocide rate. Unless you're arguing that the police should respond to violence with exponentially greater violence in return.


You need to correct for populations if you want to compare the homicide rate with the absolute number of police killings. I mean it's still higher in the US than in comparable countries but the factor is a lot lower. Homicide rate probably isn't the best correlation either since there are other situations where police would be justified in killing people. All that said, I think the non-centralized nature of the US policing system doesn't lend itself well to this kind of broad statistics based analysis anyways. It is easily seen that some police districts are WAY worse than others.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:04 pm UTC

Chen wrote:You need to correct for populations if you want to compare the homicide rate with the absolute number of police killings.

Bollocks, so I do. For some reason I was under the impression that the police killing numbers were normalised to populations, but they aren't. Ignore everything I just wrote above. Quite embarrassing, considering that I work in a data intensive field, and consider myself quite statistically savvy.

Homicide rate probably isn't the best correlation either since there are other situations where police would be justified in killing people.

I quite agree, while also noting that there are many situations involving homicide where the police are not justified in killing anyone (e.g. person stabs/shoots someone, but complies when ordered to drop their weapon by police).

All that said, I think the non-centralized nature of the US policing system doesn't lend itself well to this kind of broad statistics based analysis anyways. It is easily seen that some police districts are WAY worse than others.

I'd prefer to say that those are the wrong sort of statistics being used, rather than statistical analysis being inapplicable in general. A more stratified analysis could definitely yield important insights (and I'd imagine already has - if you look through the appropriate academic journals)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:17 pm UTC

For example: how strongly does frequency of police killing non-police (per 100 police per year or per 100000 population per year) correlate with income inequality within the precinct, district, city, county or state? For a country in the Americas, the US has quite lot income inequality and murder rate but Canada's better.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:32 pm UTC

Georgia tech student killed by police. Student was an LGBT activist. According to videos, student was holding a pocket knife and screaming "shoot me", possible mental breakdown and/or spontaneous suicide by cop, sad nonetheless, bullets are a pretty horrific treatment for mental illness. Pocket knife was possibly folded, seems like lazy police work to not just tackle the kid and bring him in alive.

Edit: nowhere does it say police claim gun; initial 911 calls said gun

link

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:45 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Georgia tech student killed by police. Student was an LGBT activist. According to videos, student was holding a pocket knife and screaming "shoot me", possible mental breakdown and/or spontaneous suicide by cop, sad nonetheless, bullets are a pretty horrific treatment for mental illness. Pocket knife was possibly folded, seems like lazy police work to not just tackle the kid and bring him in alive.

Edit: nowhere does it say police claim gun; initial 911 calls said gun


Poor training.

It doesn't appear at any point that the kid posed any immediate threat to anybody but himself. They should have waited him out or used non-lethal means... trying to tackle him would have been dangerous, but they should have things like tasers or non-lethal rounds for example especially on a campus.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:49 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Georgia tech student killed by police. Student was an LGBT activist. According to videos, student was holding a pocket knife and screaming "shoot me", possible mental breakdown and/or spontaneous suicide by cop, sad nonetheless, bullets are a pretty horrific treatment for mental illness. Pocket knife was possibly folded, seems like lazy police work to not just tackle the kid and bring him in alive.

Edit: nowhere does it say police claim gun; initial 911 calls said gun


Poor training.

It doesn't appear at any point that the kid posed any immediate threat to anybody but himself. They should have waited him out or used non-lethal means... trying to tackle him would have been dangerous, but they should have things like tasers or non-lethal rounds for example especially on a campus.

Or more accurately, the cops are acting exactly as trained. Shoot first, and make up an excuse later.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:54 pm UTC

They didn't have tasers in them at the time. Could be because if budget, could be machismo, could be that the public was afraid that they'd use it far too often as a replacement for nonlethal takedown instead of replacing lethal takedowns. Doesn't matter. Have to judge them based on what they had available.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:23 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
cphite wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Georgia tech student killed by police. Student was an LGBT activist. According to videos, student was holding a pocket knife and screaming "shoot me", possible mental breakdown and/or spontaneous suicide by cop, sad nonetheless, bullets are a pretty horrific treatment for mental illness. Pocket knife was possibly folded, seems like lazy police work to not just tackle the kid and bring him in alive.

Edit: nowhere does it say police claim gun; initial 911 calls said gun


Poor training.

It doesn't appear at any point that the kid posed any immediate threat to anybody but himself. They should have waited him out or used non-lethal means... trying to tackle him would have been dangerous, but they should have things like tasers or non-lethal rounds for example especially on a campus.

Or more accurately, the cops are acting exactly as trained. Shoot first, and make up an excuse later.


Only in your imagination.

The reality is, the use of lethal force is exceedingly rare when you consider the sheer number of contacts between officers and the public every year; and the numbers have actually been getting better every year for the past decade or so. It may not seem like that if your only source for information is watching headlines - but it's true. In the vast majority of cases, when police are trained well and actually follow their training, violence is rare, shooting is even more rare, and lethal shooting is extremely rare.

It's still tragic when it happens, especially in a case like this one. But to suggest that police are "trained to shoot first and make up an excuse later" is completely wrong and unsupportable.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:20 pm UTC

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/us/t ... ml?mcubz=0
William J. Lewinski, the psychology professor, explained that the officer had no choice but to act.
“In simple terms,” the district attorney in Portland, Ore., asked, “if I see the gun, I’m dead?”

“In simple terms, that’s it,” Dr. Lewinski replied. Chuck Wexler, its director, said he is troubled by Dr. Lewinski’s teachings. He added that even as chiefs changed their use-of-force policies, many did not know what their officers were taught in academies and private sessions.
“It’s not that chiefs don’t care,” he said. “It’s rare that a chief has time to sit at the academy and see what’s being taught.”
Sounds like polices are being trained to shoot first.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:06 pm UTC

That's the view of that one lawyer who that whole article was about. Hard to extend that to police in general without further evidence.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:31 pm UTC

Chen wrote:That's the view of that one lawyer who that whole article was about. Hard to extend that to police in general without further evidence.


There are tens of millions of contacts between police officers and suspects in a given year, and there are maybe 1,500-2,000 that result in someone being shot. That would strongly suggest that "shoot first" is not a general policy of police departments.

I use the term "suspects" deliberately, because I am talking specifically about actual investigations of crime or suspected crime; if we expand it to contacts between the police and the public as a whole, the number is easily into the hundreds of millions per year. Either way, the point is that shootings are actually extremely rare, given the numbers, so any suggestion that police are trained in any general sense to "shoot first" is clearly and demonstrably wrong.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:10 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Only in your imagination.

The reality is, the use of lethal force is exceedingly rare when you consider the sheer number of contacts between officers and the public every year; and the numbers have actually been getting better every year for the past decade or so. It may not seem like that if your only source for information is watching headlines - but it's true. In the vast majority of cases, when police are trained well and actually follow their training, violence is rare, shooting is even more rare, and lethal shooting is extremely rare.

It's still tragic when it happens, especially in a case like this one. But to suggest that police are "trained to shoot first and make up an excuse later" is completely wrong and unsupportable.


But it is exceedingly common when placed next to the police forces of virtually every other developed country in the world.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:30 pm UTC

Speaking of which:

Deaf Oklahoma man shot dead by police for refusing to comply with verbal commands, despite pleas from neighbors trying to explain his condition.

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pogrmman
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby pogrmman » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:58 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Speaking of which:

Deaf Oklahoma man shot dead by police for refusing to comply with verbal commands, despite pleas from neighbors trying to explain his condition.


I saw this too -- it's really disappointing :(

It definitely shows the "shoot first, figure out what to say later" mentality.

idonno
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:23 am UTC

“You can get tunnel vision or just get locked in on the person with the weapon,” he said, speaking generally about what officers can encounter during chaotic scenes. “I don’t know what the officers were thinking. They very well could not have heard everyone yelling around them.”

I'm pretty sure that anyone who can't process their surroundings when planning to shoot a gun in a residential area shouldn't be a police officer.


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