Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:34 pm UTC

Spoiler for trigger: rape
Spoiler:
An 18-year-old girl says two NYPD officers raped her after arresting her, according to reports.

Two detectives and their supervisor have been stripped of their badges and guns while the NYPD Internal Affairs’ Bureau’s investigation is ongoing, according to the New York Daily News.

The young woman said in a statement: “I’m completely brutalized by the rape. Now every time I see any police, I’m in a panic.”

She says she was driving in the Coney Island area of New York with two friends, when they were pulled over by police on suspicion of possessing illegal substances.

According to her attorney, Michael David, she was handcuffed and driven by the police officers to a secluded spot where they forced her to perform sex acts on them.

The young woman says she sought treatment in a New York hospital after the incident, which took place in September.

The officers in question did not deny the sexual acts occurred, but both claimed they were consensual, according to the New York Daily News.

“We’re aware of the allegations, and Internal Affairs is conducting an investigation into certain members of Brooklyn South narcotics,” a spokesperson for the New York Police Department said.
Brooklyn South Narcotics Detectives Edward Martins and Richard Hall were conducting an undercover buy-and-bust operation in Brighton Beach on Sept. 14 with their supervisor, Sgt. John Espey, when the two detectives for some inexplicable reason drove off in an unmarked Dodge minivan, police sources said.

The detectives handcuffed the teen after finding marijuana and the anxiety drug Klonopin in a bag next to her and drove her away, according to the friend, who said he was suspicious about the cops from the start.

“I had Prozac on me,” said the friend, who declined to be named. “They said that it’s supposed to be in the bottle but they just gave it back to me.”

They only handcuffed the woman, telling her friends that they were taking her to the 60th Precinct on W. Eighth St. in Coney Island for processing.

Instead, Martins and Hall allegedly took her to a secluded spot about two blocks from the 60th Precinct stationhouse, where she says she was forced to perform a sex act on both cops.

One of the detectives also raped her, David said.

The detectives then forced her out of the minivan — about 45 minutes after taking her into custody — and drove off.

Her friend went to the 60th Precinct and found the victim nearby.

Martins and Hall told colleagues that the sex was consensual, according to the high-ranking police source.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:48 pm UTC

Spoiler:
The officers in question did not deny the sexual acts occurred, but both claimed they were consensual, according to the New York Daily News.

What the actual fuck. It's surely impossible to gain meaningful sexual consent from someone that you are actively detaining (since at that point the person detained is under duress pretty much by definition). Please someone tell me that this is an established point of law?!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:16 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
Spoiler:
The officers in question did not deny the sexual acts occurred, but both claimed they were consensual, according to the New York Daily News.

What the actual fuck. It's surely impossible to gain meaningful sexual consent from someone that you are actively detaining (since at that point the person detained is under duress pretty much by definition). Please someone tell me that this is an established point of law?!


I'm sure the argument was the person was no longer detained when the acts took place. Which is still bullshit of course. But it would technically be legal. Clearly if the person would still be in custody it would be illegal (similar to prison guard sex I'd imagine).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:51 pm UTC

https://www.propublica.org/article/a-du ... ken-system
This thread needs some love to hate loving.
Innocent man gets tagged as a murderer, but is released on bail due to how weak the case is. Cops decide to manufacture a case against him by forcing prostitutes and informants into testifying against him. He served years in prison, And is forced into a plea deal. He is then exonerated, but then the plea deal prevents him from wiping clean his record. Now he can't get a real job because he's a convict. The cops and Prosecutor who forced him into jail are unapologetic. The judge who bailed him out lost his promotion.

Welcome to justice for the poor. A vehicle for cops and attorneys to advance their careers on the bodies of minorities.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:42 pm UTC

Yes, just like the bail system, the plea bargain system is designed to perpetuate the power of those in power, not to impartially evaluate what is just and proportionate according to the facts of a particular person's situation.

I've posted about this before, but this other case is an example of what can happen when someone refuses to be bullied into a plea deal. Everyone, even the sentencing judge, seemed to agree that six life terms plus 118 years was a wildly disproportionate sentence for what this fifteen-year-old kid did. But when he refused to plea bargain, the system decided it needed to make an example of him, so it could keep bullying people into accepting similar plea deals. We can't let people get in the habit of refusing those, can we? (And then the rather-distracted outgoing governor messed up the wording of the commutation of his sentence, too. SIGH.)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:58 pm UTC

From an outside perspective the plea bargain system in the US is utterly horrifying. It simply seems to abandon wholesale any notion that the pursuit of justice is the aim of the prosecutorial system.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:00 pm UTC

So, how are we going to finance the extra trial costs of a proposed no-plea bargaining system?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:05 pm UTC

Taxes on poor people?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:07 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So, how are we going to finance the extra trial costs of a proposed no-plea bargaining system?

Same way much of the rest of the world does - by incarcerating fewer than 1/4 of the people you do currently. Decriminalising illicit drugs would be a solid start, as would abandoning all the various "three-strikes" laws.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:12 pm UTC

Aren't those something we should be doing independently of plea bargains anyway?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:15 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Aren't those something we should be doing independently of plea bargains anyway?

Absolutely they are, but quite apart from all the direct reasons for reducing incarceration it also seems like a decent way to release funds which could be used to improve other parts of the justice system.

Edit: the death penalty, apart from being morally repugnant IMO, also seems like a hugely expensive waste of money, though I don't know how significant this is overall.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:22 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:So, how are we going to finance the extra trial costs of a proposed no-plea bargaining system?

Same way much of the rest of the world does - by incarcerating fewer than 1/4 of the people you do currently. Decriminalising illicit drugs would be a solid start, as would abandoning all the various "three-strikes" laws.

That's only a bandaid. For one thing, most crime is punished by States, not the federal government. You need to attack the incentives that police, prosecutors, and judges have to be hard on crime. That, and reduce the bloodthirstiness of the public. You post a few gruesome assaults, and you got half the suburban moms demanding everyone ever accused of a crime to be drawn and quartered.
People are so easily scared into incarcerating criminals forever.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Quercus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:31 pm UTC

sardia wrote:You need to attack the incentives that police, prosecutors, and judges have to be hard on crime. That, and reduce the bloodthirstiness of the public. You post a few gruesome assaults, and you got half the suburban moms demanding everyone ever accused of a crime to be drawn and quartered.


Yeah. I basically focused on the low hanging fruit - it gets super hard and complex after that. The whole bloodthirstiness of the public thing is one reason that I prefer an independently appointed rather than elected judiciary (by some sort of as-transparant-as-possible commission as in the UK).

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:32 pm UTC

I love how the fact that the rest of the world does something is always negated by the fact that the US is a special case cause it's made of separate states. It would be impossible that those states act the way the rest of the world does.

How the hell does the US see itself as the bastion of justice and freedom again?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:45 pm UTC

Imagine a world where criminals and homeless and mentally ill and the unemployed could move freely between EU states and not be kicked out, unlike the current scenario where, AFAIK, internal migration in the EU is about as strict as regular immigration. Now imagine France jumps to the obvious budget saving conclusion, and gives all of its undesirables a 1 way bus ticket to Norway, without any way for Norway to sue France. Now imagine Norway basically faces collapse of its social services so they get cut, and every EU country pulls this stunt on each other and cuts services to discourage undesirables from arriving. Now imagine a family that used to be getting by on social services facing a cut, and some turning to crime...

That's basically the story of the US, and why I advocate social services be allowed to collect from other states.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:55 pm UTC

Um, we have free movement in the EU for citizens. Funnily enough, it hasn't descended to countries shipping their undesirables away.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:00 pm UTC

But can an unemployed Greek move to Britain and collect welfare and social services? My understanding is that in the EU you can travel anywhere without needing a passport, but moving and finding a(n above the table) job are more restricted.

Granted I can easily be mistaken, but I think it was on these forums sometime back when someone was telling me about EU residency restrictions.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:12 pm UTC

If you have an EU passport you can move to any EU country and start working legally, yes.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:19 pm UTC

So... what can the US copy so that it stops happening here?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ranbot » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:47 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So, how are we going to finance the extra trial costs of a proposed no-plea bargaining system?

Maybe prosecutors would only pursue their best-supported charges in the first place, rather than piling on lots of weak charges to scare defendants into a plea deals? maybe....

Another option is to allow a defendant to agree to being prosecuted/punished without going on record admitting to the crime. That would give prosecutors their convictions and many criminals will go to jail without excessively long and expensive trials, but defendants will retain the ability to challenge their conviction if exonerating information is found later. The law should reflect reality that a deal doesn't have to be a plea of guilt. The law distinguishes between punishment and guilt whenever there is a "settlement" between wealthy people or companies, and I think it can handle the distinction here too.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:13 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So... what can the US copy so that it stops happening here?

Aren't there a lot more controls on this sort of stuff in the US, what with federal budgets and such? Do an accurate headcount every couple of years, adjust budgets accordingly - a state that loses population will also lose funding. And it's not like funding is distributed proportionally according to the number of people, anyway. There are many mitigating factors, whether legit (support following natural disasters) or not (bribing representatives with increased budgets so they support you).
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:43 am UTC

Homeless people and others cost the locals far, far more than any federal government subsidy could ever hope to match. The number I've seen is something like $100k/yr per homeless person, between the extra petty crime, the lost business due to them chasing away customers, disease, use of prisons and hospitals, police and judicial system, etc. Sure, it'd be cheaper to just house them, but half-ass at twice the cost is the American way. Many places in the US intentionally brutalize the homeless in order to convince them to leave, which is maybe 1/3 the reason for this thread...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:56 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Sure, it'd be cheaper to just house them, but half-ass at twice the cost is the American way.


Yes! This!

I've been looking at Portugal's drug policy recently. That, too, is cheaper than the alternative. Unfortunately, it's based on the radical idea that instead of just trying to rid itself of "undesirables," as if they are irredeemable parasites, society should be trying to help all people to become productive contributors to the community.

(Long-winded, OT religious ramblings deleted)

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zamfir » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:34 am UTC

But can an unemployed Greek move to Britain and collect welfare and social services? My understanding is that in the EU you can travel anywhere without needing a passport, but moving and finding a(n above the table) job are more restricted.

Travel is unrestricted, but there are time limits on your stay if you do not have a job or other means of support. In practice, these time limits are only weakly enforced.

You can apply for any job, not much restrictions there. You usually become eligible for social services once you have a job (or had one for a certain period), though some might be available directly. This is a complicated area.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:32 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:So... what can the US copy so that it stops happening here?

Aren't there a lot more controls on this sort of stuff in the US, what with federal budgets and such? Do an accurate headcount every couple of years, adjust budgets accordingly - a state that loses population will also lose funding. And it's not like funding is distributed proportionally according to the number of people, anyway. There are many mitigating factors, whether legit (support following natural disasters) or not (bribing representatives with increased budgets so they support you).


Census is every ten years. Locales may count more frequently, but that's the only standardized nationwide government counting that's happening.

I do agree that federal moneys are delivered quite unevenly anyways, so this point may not matter all that much in practice.

As far as shipping off undesirables go, some states have an advantage. Not a lot of homeless in the streets in northern MN, because they'd straight up freeze to death. Florida does not have this factor. So, some states are comfortable ignoring the issue, or at least, have a much easier time dealing with it than others. Freedom of movement is probably part of this, but I don't think it's a good reason to curtail it. 'sa useful freedom. A *lot* of folks move states, or live in one state and work across state lines, particularly in areas where the states are comparatively tiny.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:51 pm UTC

I don't want to remove freedom of movement. I just want Minnesota to pay for all the homeless Minnesotans in Florida.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:05 pm UTC

At what point does somebody who moves from Minnesota to Florida stop being Minnesota's problem? Whether or not they are homeless in Florida should not matter if they were homeless in Minnesota too.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:14 pm UTC

I personally think it should be based on the prior 5 years residency. Arbitrary number I know. If they were a resident of Minnesota for 3 of those years, Illinois for 1, and Florida for 1, Illinois pays 20% and Minnesota pays 60%.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:30 pm UTC

You're not a citizen of a state, you're a citizen of the US. Florida will have to suck it up. You perhaps thought the sun and the fun were for people born there?

For the record, Minnesota, or some group in Minnesota, apparently surveys its homeless with some regularity. As do a lot of other states. About half are mentally ill. A number are vets who don't adapt well to coming home. The rest are economic victims.

In an interesting historical note Californians blockaded some roads to keep the riff raff out during the dust bowl.
California – the state that had once advertised for more migrant workers – found themselves overwhelmed by up to 7,000 new migrants a month, more migrants than they needed. So for several months in 1936, the Los Angeles Police Department sent 136 deputies to the state lines to turn back migrants who didn't have any money. Bordering states like Arizona were angry that California was trying to "dump hoboes" back on them. Eventually, the police were returned to Los Angeles, but the migrants kept coming.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:05 pm UTC

I always thought the homeless vets was exaggerated. Ask any homeless guy and of course he has a sob story. Vets have lots of bonuses when it comes to getting government jobs as well as private sector... provided they are not discharged on less than honorable grounds. Not sure how I feel about those guys being homeless, depends on what they did to get kicked out. Refuse to follow orders? Sympathetic, somewhat. Raped a civilian? Yeah fuck no.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:46 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:I've been looking at Portugal's drug policy recently. That, too, is cheaper than the alternative. Unfortunately, it's based on the radical idea that instead of just trying to rid itself of "undesirables," as if they are irredeemable parasites, society should be trying to help all people to become productive contributors to the community.
Isn't the Republican idea that the government has no right to intervene at all except to prevent harm to the citizens? That is the motivation for restricting drugs, isn't it? Addicts are harmed, victims of contaminated drugs are harmed, people whose stuff is stolen to pay for drug habits are harmed, people struck by cars whose drivers are out of their skulls are harmed et cetera and to reduce that harm the government forbids or restricts the possession, transportation, distribution, sale, purchase and/or juggling of some substances. Given that harm reduction is the justification for the intervention, shouldn't it also be the focus? Isn't it the government's job and duty to minimise the harm done to citizens?

That's what Portugal's been doing, minimising the harm done to people.

Some (like Senator _____ to my right, who has invested $______ in a privately-run prison at __________ and received $____ in dividends from that investment, much of it coming from the prison's use of inmates as slave labour for hire) will portray such changes as being "soft on criminals." I say we're being soft on everyone, because everyone matters. No doubt the Daily Mail is going to hate me for saying so, but nowhere in the Constitution does it say we have a government of ordinary decent middle-class heterosexual white Christians, by ordinary decent middle-class heterosexual white Christians for ordinary decent middle-class heterosexual white Christians.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:27 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I always thought the homeless vets was exaggerated. Ask any homeless guy and of course he has a sob story. Vets have lots of bonuses when it comes to getting government jobs as well as private sector... provided they are not discharged on less than honorable grounds. Not sure how I feel about those guys being homeless, depends on what they did to get kicked out. Refuse to follow orders? Sympathetic, somewhat. Raped a civilian? Yeah fuck no.

Soldiers who have been dishonorably discharged are not considered veterans, so your presumption that they're all homeless because they raped civilians is waay off-base. 11% of adult homeless people in the US are veterans, over 50% of them have disabilities, 50% of them have serious mental illness, 70% of them have substance abuse issues.

I'm not a pro-military guy but these people have been enlisted, often in very mischievous ways, by the US government to go out to the field, suffer enormous damages and with very little support. That they get (or should get) some benefits from the VA office doesn't mean other homeless people with "sob stories" shouldn't be helped and supported, these things aren't mutually exclusive.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:34 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I don't want to remove freedom of movement. I just want Minnesota to pay for all the homeless Minnesotans in Florida.
How about Florida enact any kind of social welfare policy that might help some of those people people not be homeless any more?

CorruptUser wrote:I always thought the homeless vets was exaggerated. Ask any homeless guy and of course he has a sob story. Vets have lots of bonuses when it comes to getting government jobs as well as private sector... provided they are not discharged on less than honorable grounds. Not sure how I feel about those guys being homeless, depends on what they did to get kicked out. Refuse to follow orders? Sympathetic, somewhat. Raped a civilian? Yeah fuck no.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:40 pm UTC

Or, you know, what gmal said. Much more appropriate response.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zamfir » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:11 pm UTC

11% of adult homeless people in the US are veterans, over 50% of them have disabilities, 50% of them have serious mental illness, 70% of them have substance abuse issues.

Quick googling says that there are 22 million veterans in the US, out of an adult population of 245 million. So it's not even that veterans are extremely more likely to become homeless - it's simply that there are a lot of veterans.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:32 pm UTC

Quick googling also states that about 14% of male homeless are vets, more than the average, according to the VA which I assume is reliable. I do not know if it's broken down by discharge status, because that would be an interesting thing to look at. My question/musing was whether it was based on polling the homeless themselves. Either most of the homeless I talked to were really vets and the VA is wrong, small data sample problems, Ive only been in weird areas, or some of them are lying.

As for Minnesotans in Florida, the issue is that Florida shouldn't be forced to pick up the tab for Minnesota's problems. Yes yes, provide services, but the problem is basically a prisoners dilemma with 50+ players in that if you provide services and others don't, thge others have their problem solved for free while you are stuck with the bill.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:23 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
But can an unemployed Greek move to Britain and collect welfare and social services? My understanding is that in the EU you can travel anywhere without needing a passport, but moving and finding a(n above the table) job are more restricted.

Travel is unrestricted, but there are time limits on your stay if you do not have a job or other means of support. In practice, these time limits are only weakly enforced.

You can apply for any job, not much restrictions there. You usually become eligible for social services once you have a job (or had one for a certain period), though some might be available directly. This is a complicated area.


Anyway in most countries benefitting from any welfare means you have contributed for that. A working Greek person working in any EU country would benefit from the same public services as other workers who don't happen to be formerly unemployed in Greece. And they wouldn't need to have been of noble birth for five years or something.
Last edited by Grop on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:53 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:47 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I always thought the homeless vets was exaggerated.


Based on...?

Ask any homeless guy and of course he has a sob story.


As opposed to what? Are you really expecting to hear happy stories from people about how they ended up living on the street?

Vets have lots of bonuses when it comes to getting government jobs as well as private sector... provided they are not discharged on less than honorable grounds.


Yes, there are benefits and advantages for veterans, both in government and private sector. The problem is that a lot of veterans have issues, both mental and physical, related to their service that our country does a wholly inadequate job of helping them through. What often happens is that these folks find it difficult to cope with working or even just getting by day by day, and they end up homeless. The fact that jobs are available doesn't completely address the problem for them.

It can be incredibly difficult for veterans to get treatment, whether for physical or mental issues. They wait ridiculously long times, they're often forced to travel long distances or deal with unrealistic schedules; it's a complete fucking shame considering that these are people who got hurt serving their country. Often, before they get necessary treatment, they're homeless.

Not sure how I feel about those guys being homeless, depends on what they did to get kicked out. Refuse to follow orders? Sympathetic, somewhat. Raped a civilian? Yeah fuck no.


Ideally, even people who've committed horrible crimes ought to be able to get by once they're served whatever time they were sentenced to.

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ucim
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:58 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:As for Minnesotans in Florida, the issue is that Florida shouldn't be forced to pick up the tab for Minnesota's problems.
First, they are not "Minnesotans in Florida". They are Floridians. They live in Florida.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:14 pm UTC

So what would be the correct way to distinguish people for the purpose of determining the homeless problem that's a result of Florida's economic situation and social services, versus other states dumping their responsibilities onto Florida because they can? I wasn't aware that the idea that, maybe states shouldn't be allowed to replace actual services with greyhound therapy, is something we'd fight over.

Also, should we split this out? I mean, it's definitely related to police misbehaviour, in that it's the police and prison guards who often "encourage" the homeless to leave, but it's kind of its own topic at this point.


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