Police misbehavior thread

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BattleMoose
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:26 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Diadem wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
Diadem wrote:Shooting 137 times sounds a wee bit excessive though.


Police are trained to shoot until dead, not dying. Unlike in movies, in a gunfight a person may not realize they've been hit by a bullet until a short time later, and may still be a threat even if the wound is mortal. So it's not uncommon for police to empty their guns into a target, and when a dozen cops are all shooting, well, the funeral will be closed casket.

"They are trained poorly" is not really a good excuse, except perhaps on an individual level. If cops are trained poorly, fix their training.


They did exactly as they were trained to do. That implies they were trained properly...


No, no they didn't.

The officers are being disciplined because of excessive speed, insubordination and failure to request permission to join the pursuit,

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:29 pm UTC

Erm...

If they were trained to empty their clips during a combat situation, and they emptied their clips during a combat situation, they did exactly what they were trained to do.


The problem is that we as a society decided to replace Judge Jones with Judge Dredd to reduce the cost of the appeals system...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:51 am UTC

@CorruptUser

You claimed they did exactly as they were trained to do.

Lets look at what they did, I'll even put it in a list.

1. Excessive speed
2. Insubordination
3. Failure to request permission to join the pursuit

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that they were not trained to do these things.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:52 am UTC

Thought we were talking about the excessive use of bullets.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:01 am UTC

I thought we were talking about how well they were trained.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:32 am UTC

Training in use of firearms...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:40 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Training in use of firearms...


They fired at unarmed men, men they shouldn't have even been pursuing, because they heard a car backfire. Do you think that meets the minimum criteria for use of deadly force? Were they trained to discharge their weapons for this type of scenario?

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:02 am UTC

1) No
2) Yes


The problem isn't that they weren't trained, but that they were...

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Paul in Saudi
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:11 am UTC

I have been in combat situations. I never emptied my magazine (not "clip") at anyone or anything. Who wants to be out of bang-bang when someone is shooting at you?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:20 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:1) No
2) Yes


The problem isn't that they weren't trained, but that they were...


If your goal was to be understood, you failed completely.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:35 am UTC

If we are training people to kick puppies on sight, and they kick puppies whenever they see puppies, they are well trained. The problem is not that we aren't doing a good enough job making sure every person uses the proper puppy kicking technique, but that we are training people to kick puppies.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:47 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If we are training people to kick puppies on sight, and they kick puppies whenever they see puppies, they are well trained. The problem is not that we aren't doing a good enough job making sure every person uses the proper puppy kicking technique, but that we are training people to kick puppies.

I think I understand that.
Maybe.

Metaphor. right?
I think you are correct.

What are we training our men and women in blue to do?
Kick puppies? Puppies are so much easier to defend than The People.

The People are enough to make a person shrug and say, "They must have had it coming."
But! We can't! Some of The People are as innocent as puppies. Not all, some.

Some are like a box of kittens. They look helpless and innocent. That box holds a lot of trouble.
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Diadem
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:11 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If we are training people to kick puppies on sight, and they kick puppies whenever they see puppies, they are well trained. The problem is not that we aren't doing a good enough job making sure every person uses the proper puppy kicking technique, but that we are training people to kick puppies.

You have a truly weird definition of 'well' (or 'properly' which you used earlier).

But semantics aside, do we at least agree that police training that trains officers to empty their gun at anything that moves is highly lacking?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Carlington » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:56 am UTC

I think CorruptUser is being particularly obtuse, here. He isn't referring to whether it's a good thing or not that police officers are trained to fire lots of bullets. He's simply starting from the premise that standard training is "fire lots of bullets", and observing that, since that's what they did, they followed their training and are thus well-trained by definition. I doubt he disagrees that police being trained to fire lots of bullets is a Bad Thing.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:26 am UTC

No, not obtuse, just overly sensitive about nuances. The problem isn't the lack of training or if the officers failed the training, but what the goal of the training is. Those goals are ostensibly 'minimize officer casualties' but the cynic in me sees 'eliminate the court system' as well.

The cynic in me has to wonder at what point disproportionate targeting and killing of black 'suspects' becomes eugenics/genocide.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:11 pm UTC

Mag dumps are indeed common police training. Training for civilians is different, and is usually "fire until the threat stops". CCW holders also have lower shots/incident and lower rates of shooting friendlies in such incidents. I suspect that this is not coincidence.

Police frequently cite their job as being exceptionally dangerous, but in 2012, only 127 federal, state and local officers died on duty. This might sound like a fair amount, but keep in mind that the #1 danger isn't guys shooting them, but simple traffic accidents(accounting for 50 of those deaths), which of course, also threaten all of us. Also note that while no breakdown appears for 2012 specifically, over the last 30 years, 42% of officer deaths in car accidents have coincided with the officer not wearing a seat belt. I suspect that training them to wear their seatbelts will be more effective in saving lives than training them to fire all the bullets.

The overall death rate for police is 1.56/100k. The AVERAGE of all jobs is 3.5/100k(2011 stats for that, didn't see 2012 stats on Bureau of Labor site, but I doubt it's changed much). The justification that cops are special and need additional rights/leniency because of all the danger does not seem plausible.

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Diadem
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:30 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No, not obtuse, just overly sensitive about nuances. The problem isn't the lack of training or if the officers failed the training, but what the goal of the training is. Those goals are ostensibly 'minimize officer casualties' but the cynic in me sees 'eliminate the court system' as well.

Yes. But calling such an officer 'properly trained' is a weird use language. His training may have been efficient, but it certainly wasn't good.

Anyway. I think we are in complete agreement that training officers to shoot first, ask questions later is a bad idea. And that training officers to always escalate violence to the highest level available is also a bad idea.

The cynic in me has to wonder at what point disproportionate targeting and killing of black 'suspects' becomes eugenics/genocide.

The cynic in me wonders at what point a justice system is so broken that taking justice into ones own hands becomes morally defensible.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:47 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
The cynic in me has to wonder at what point disproportionate targeting and killing of black 'suspects' becomes eugenics/genocide.

The cynic in me wonders at what point a justice system is so broken that taking justice into ones own hands becomes morally defensible.


*shrug* Uniforms have never been a particularly reliable source of justice or morality. Anyone should be able to pursue justice, IMO.

Also, I have to seriously question the judgement of those who saw a dozen or more cars and decided "shit, I'll chase too". There's gotta be a point at which you assume they probably have enough to handle it(unless specifically ordered to assist, of course). That probably should come at some point before there's over a hundred officers involved. The actual behavior appears to be more like a crazed mob than to a reasonable approach to law enforcement.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:02 pm UTC

On the other hand, there does come a point where the group is so huge you have to say that you'd be better off joining. If you see one person jump off a bridge, you'd think it's a suicide, but if you see a hundred people screaming and getting out of their cars to jump off the bridge, get off the bridge!



Anyway, I suggest a new rule for the police. If you kill someone, no matter how justified, lose two day's pay. Nothing too severe that you'd hesitate to kill when your life was threatened, but enough of a sting that you'd think twice if you weren't completely sure. None of this paid leave and counseling crap. I'd love paid leave! If only my job let me have paid leave for 52 weeks out of the year every year!

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Paul in Saudi
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:38 pm UTC

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Former-HPD-cop-pleads-guilty-in-rape-case-4896955.php?cmpid=hpts

Houston Texas Officer Adan Jimenez Carranza has plead guilty to "attempted sexual assault." He investigated a fender-bender, handcuffed one driver, then raped her in the back seat of his patrol car. His plea allowed him to be sentenced to ten years in jail, 20 years on the sex offender registry and loss of his police officer license. He may be eligible for parole in six months. His lawyer hopes to have him out in a couple of years, tops.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:42 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No, not obtuse, just overly sensitive about nuances. The problem isn't the lack of training or if the officers failed the training, but what the goal of the training is. Those goals are ostensibly 'minimize officer casualties' but the cynic in me sees 'eliminate the court system' as well.

The cynic in me has to wonder at what point disproportionate targeting and killing of black 'suspects' becomes eugenics/genocide.


I think you're confusing training and culture.

There were 104 officers involved in the pursuit, 60 of which were punished. The story mentions nothing to the effect that there was any indication of a weapon in use by the pursued other than the "backfire" that initiated the chase. At the end, 13 officers fired 137 shots in what seems to me to clearly be an intended execution. There was no indication of a weapon in or possession of the occupants at the scene; no attempt made to effect an arrest; they simply meant for everyone in that car to die.

Police ignored procedures. They ignored supervisors. Some of them implemented an execution.

I guarantee that none of that was "trained"; at least not in the sense that we normally consider training. Instead, it is communicated by attitude, by demonstration, by intimidation, by dark ideas communicated in whispers in dark corners. We normally call such deeply imbedded behavior by the term "culture".

Really, that's what this whole thread is about: Many police have formed a culture, centered around an "us-versus-all-them" attitude that results in...I don't even know how many atrocities. But we talk about them here, because the atrocities are very real. This was one.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Angua » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:28 am UTC

Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:34 am UTC

"Ring ring ring... Oh, it's for the police, the 1920's called they want... Wait, what? What do you mean if I try to send them back you'll kill my great grand parents? That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Okay, okay.

Sorry, I don't think you're wanted anywhere, especially not in the police force."
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:53 pm UTC

Latest: a deputy shoots a 13-year-old boy to death because he was carrying a pellet gun from his parents' house to a friend's house. His crime? Turning around to look when he heard men shouting at him.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Sonoma-County-Deputies-Shoot-Kill-Boy-With-Toy-Assault-Rifle-228927441.html

This is just sickening. Whatever factors made this possible HAVE to go.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:29 pm UTC


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davidstarlingm
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:37 pm UTC


Saw that too.

The terrific thing is that the victims only received around $30,000 each. Apparently, worker's comp pays better than a tort suit.

Where does a campus rent-a-cop get to torture peaceful protestors and then get awarded five figures for the "mental anguish" of getting called out on it? America, that's where!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Роберт » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:52 pm UTC

Man, no one should have sent him death threats. The fact that he got awarded money is an entirely appropriate response. Death threats to him were an entirely inappropriate response. If getting pepper-sprayed while protesting is worth $30,000, get death threats due to actions you performed while on duty should be worth twice that.

Edit to clarify: yes, what he did was wrong. Just because someone did something wrong doesn't mean that deserve anything they get. He doesn't deserve intentional torture, and he doesn't deserve death threats. He got fired, guys. That's what he deserved. Death threats? Uncalled for.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:57 pm UTC

Considering that the university police were in the right to disperse the protest, and pepper spray is probably the least violent way the police disperse a protest, I'm actually surprised the students got anything.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby kiklion » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:59 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Considering that the university police were in the right to disperse the protest, and pepper spray is probably the least violent way the police disperse a protest, I'm actually surprised the students got anything.


PR and Legal battles cost the school money. It may have just been a calculated costs decision.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:09 pm UTC

Courts have found that there's a certain level of willful negligence or intentional misconduct which can result in a denial of worker's comp. Given that the officer's actions are fairly gross misconduct and probably should have been considered criminal, it's kind of silly to say that the death threats he received were part of the course of his employment. Should he have received death threats? Of course not. Should his employer have been required to compensate him for them? No. They didn't have anything to do with the normal course of his employment; they were the result of his own personal criminal (in fact if not in law) actions.

CorruptUser wrote:Considering that the university police were in the right to disperse the protest, and pepper spray is probably the least violent way the police disperse a protest, I'm actually surprised the students got anything.

Pepper spray is a nonviolent way to disperse a protest? Have you ever been pepper sprayed? Sorry, but that doesn't compute. If you're dealing with a mob or riot, that's one thing. But a bunch of kids kneeling on the ground, not so much. If you really want them to disperse, maybe walking in and firmly escorting them away one by one is a little less nonviolent than pouring acid on them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:24 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:Latest: a deputy shoots a 13-year-old boy to death because he was carrying a pellet gun from his parents' house to a friend's house. His crime? Turning around to look when he heard men shouting at him.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Sonoma-County-Deputies-Shoot-Kill-Boy-With-Toy-Assault-Rifle-228927441.html

This is just sickening. Whatever factors made this possible HAVE to go.


They turned on the siren and told him to drop the weapon. This could be a tragic mistake on his part to instinctively turn towards the people calling out to him, but doing so with something that looks like a real weapon (without the orange plastic tip denoting a fake one) is a pretty good way to get shot. I don't have any sound here at work, but there's an image in the video of a man holding up 2 guns that looks like AKs. I assume one is real and one is fake (as the article text mentions). Frankly at a glance I can't tell which is which. Gun's that realistic looking should not be allowed to be carried in public like that, though I guess that is what that orange tip is supposed to be for.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:29 pm UTC

1) Least violent != Nonviolent. There's a reason that tasers and so forth are called 'Less lethal' not 'Non lethal'. I've been tazered but only seen pepper spray, but I'm still sure that pepper spray is safer long term than electric shocks and beatings.

2) Umm, they tried to grab each student and drag them away, but they were locking arms and the only way to drag them away was to beat the crap out of them. Quite sure that has a higher risk of injury than the spray.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Brace » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:33 pm UTC

I could tell at a glance. The dimensions are off, the charging handle and ejection port look clearly fake, it has fake wood, etc. Of course, that could easily be insufficient under the circumstances. What gets me is the eyewitness, who said that the police got out of their car and immediately shot the kid to death without saying anything.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:36 pm UTC

Like I said, new rule; if you kill someone, no matter how justified, lose a few days pay.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:55 pm UTC

Chen wrote:They turned on the siren and told him to drop the weapon. This could be a tragic mistake on his part to instinctively turn towards the people calling out to him....

Yes, it was clearly his mistake that led to him being shot to death. He should have known better than to have Spanish as his first language in an English-speaking country. Stupid kid.

Chen wrote:....an image in the video of a man holding up 2 guns that looks like AKs. I assume one is real and one is fake (as the article text mentions). Frankly at a glance I can't tell which is which.

Well, protip: the one with the shiny brown plastic molded barrel guard and stock, the chrome barrel, and the bright red sticker on the housing is the toy; the one with the wooden barrel guard and stock and the anodized steel barrel is the real one.

But this is missing the point: no matter how real a firearm looks, you don't just open fire. If the officer was so knowledgeable about "assault weapons", he would have known that an AK-47 is not particularly controllable at pistol range. You shouldn't have your gun out, let alone start pulling the trigger, unless there is a credible threat.

Chen wrote:....guns that realistic looking should not be allowed to be carried in public like that, though I guess that is what that orange tip is supposed to be for.

Real guns are allowed to be carried in public like that. Even in California, there is absolutely nothing to prevent me from walking down a public street carrying a real semiautomatic rifle (granted, I can no longer purchase one unless it has a fixed mag, but that's beside the point). Would it be reasonable for a police officer to ask me where I'm going and what I'm doing? Sure, I don't have a problem with that. Is it reasonable for a group of police officers to shoot me to death before I've had a chance to answer their shouts? No, it is not. That is called an extrajudicial killing.

Even if rifles were completely illegal, carrying one in public would not constitute a credible threat warranting deadly force.

In any case, all I said was that the factors that made such a tragedy possible need to go. Do you disagree? Do you think that this is an acceptable loss? Whatever training, culture, or ideas make it possible for police to shoot an innocent boy to death have to end. That's the bottom line.

CorruptUser wrote:They tried to grab each student and drag them away, but they were locking arms and the only way to drag them away was to beat the crap out of them.

Attacking people who won't obey your orders is pretty much the exact definition of bullying.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:22 pm UTC

I don't want to look at the sensationalism.
Is it true? A boy was walking to his friend's place with a toy gun?

yes. A man, child or woman used to be able to carry a rifle.
It was good manners to open it or ask the someone at the front desk to put it behind the counter while you shop.

It seems a pistol is ok, too. They stay holstered. It is not polite to get your gun out in town.
But; That is all it is. It is not polite. Period. When ya' start shooting, it becomes a public nuisance.

The AK-47. The MK-47.
Light powerful machine.
How do you load one of those things?

I have never shot one. Kind of like a Purple Cow.
That is a small gun for the Pop. I have seen that machine.

If you were walking down the street and some guy walked by with a big ole' rife;
What would you think? It, kind of, depends upon How he way carrying it. right?

Is it, really, true? The police shoot the people out of fear.
They Police are like frightened dogs? A frightened dog will bite.

Maybe we can talk them into using Tranquilizer Guns.
Like Wild Kingdom! Five shots of that would take down Samba and his friend Godzilla.

Innocent onlickers would have more interesting stories.
It could be problematic. People taunting the police.

"Shoot Me!" They yell.
No! Shoot Me!

A tranquilizer dart is invasive.
Less invasive than most bullets.

From reading your conversation, it seems a man-child was playing with a plastic gun and it got him shot.
That is so sad. "Don't take your guns to town, Son." Is good advice, again. For the same old reason.

If people know you have a gun, they will start gunning for you.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby oxoiron » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:38 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:Pepper spray is a nonviolent way to disperse a protest? Have you ever been pepper sprayed? Sorry, but that doesn't compute. If you're dealing with a mob or riot, that's one thing. But a bunch of kids kneeling on the ground, not so much. If you really want them to disperse, maybe walking in and firmly escorting them away one by one is a little less nonviolent than pouring acid on them.
I know this isn't relevant to your point, but [pedantry]capsaicin can hardly be considered an acid in this situation[/pedantry].
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:54 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:Yes, it was clearly his mistake that led to him being shot to death. He should have known better than to have Spanish as his first language in an English-speaking country. Stupid kid.


Police (with sirens on) tell you to drop your weapon. Instead you turn around with said weapon in hand and, from what they said having it point towards them. This was a mistake. Is the officer making stuff up about knowing things about armor piercing rounds and such? I don't know. Is he just saying stuff like that to explain the shooting after the fact? Or did he legitimately think those things? If a suspect is turning towards you with a weapon when should you be allowed to shoot him? After he fires? After he aims?

By bringing in the language are you implying he couldn't understand them? He didn't know they were telling him to drop the weapon?

In any case, all I said was that the factors that made such a tragedy possible need to go. Do you disagree? Do you think that this is an acceptable loss? Whatever training, culture, or ideas make it possible for police to shoot an innocent boy to death have to end. That's the bottom line.


I agree with this, but I don't agree its only the police officers' fault. It's not like the movies. You don't have standoffs where guns are constantly aimed at each other. If there's a gun aimed at you, you can't assume the person is not going to fire at you and you probably can't do anything to stop it if they wanted to. I have to assume police are trained to ensure that a suspect cannot get into a position to shoot them. In this case the gun was fake and a child died. Is there more training that can be done to prevent this? It's certainly worth looking into.

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davidstarlingm
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:57 pm UTC

oxoiron wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:Pepper spray is a nonviolent way to disperse a protest? Have you ever been pepper sprayed? Sorry, but that doesn't compute. If you're dealing with a mob or riot, that's one thing. But a bunch of kids kneeling on the ground, not so much. If you really want them to disperse, maybe walking in and firmly escorting them away one by one is a little less nonviolent than pouring acid on them.
I know this isn't relevant to your point, but [pedantry]capsaicin can hardly be considered an acid in this situation[/pedantry].

Good catch; I forgot that capsaicin is neither base nor acid.

Though arguably a case can be made for "acid" being an everyday referent to corrosive compounds, regardless of whether their pH is more than or less than or equal to 7. Not that that was how I was using it. ;)

EDIT:

Chen wrote:Police (with sirens on) tell you to drop your weapon. Instead you turn around with said weapon in hand and, from what they said having it point towards them. This was a mistake. Is the officer making stuff up about knowing things about armor piercing rounds and such? I don't know. Is he just saying stuff like that to explain the shooting after the fact? Or did he legitimately think those things? If a suspect is turning towards you with a weapon when should you be allowed to shoot him? After he fires? After he aims?

The first mistake is classifying a child as a suspect when you have no probable cause to assume a crime has been or will be committed.

I would argue that unless you have clear and unambiguous reason to believe someone is about to attack you with deadly force, you need to wait until a shot is fired. Police should not be in the business of firing the first shot. Aiming (hands in firing position, finger on trigger, assault stance) is clear and unambiguous. Turning around is not.

Chen wrote:By bringing in the language are you implying he couldn't understand them? He didn't know they were telling him to drop the weapon?

I'm implying that it's reasonable to require officers to make sure a citizen has understood an order before they even think about enforcing it with bullets.

Chen wrote:If there's a gun aimed at you, you can't assume the person is not going to fire at you and you probably can't do anything to stop it if they wanted to. I have to assume police are trained to ensure that a suspect cannot get into a position to shoot them.

"Day One: Remember, folks, you should assume that everyone who might be carrying a firearm might begin firing at you at any moment, regardless of whether they have shown any indications of being dangerous. Shoot them until they stop moving; if they can't move, they can't get into firing position."

No chance that's going to result in any unnecessary casaulties.
Last edited by davidstarlingm on Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:13 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:02 pm UTC

Actually, I don't think it's a base, it is a mild acid. That's not the issue though; the issue is that it's extremely painful. One shouldn't taser a sit in protest for the same reason, irrespective of permanence of the damage caused.

But yeah, [pedantry]pepper spray doesn't get it's kick from being acidic or basic, afaik [/pedantry]
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