Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

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PerchloricAcid
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby PerchloricAcid » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:17 pm UTC

Me321 wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/

What could have possibly been his motivation to do so, provided the story is genuine?

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Dauric » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:35 pm UTC

PerchloricAcid wrote:
Me321 wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/

What could have possibly been his motivation to do so, provided the story is genuine?


I believe these types of events are referred to as a "call for help". In general the mind doesn't go from mostly healthy to psychotically deranged in a single incident, it's a process where thought patters degrade over time. In that process some part of the person's mind will recognize that they are losing their grip and seek help from someone in some fashion they think can do something to stop them from committing the acts they know are wrong, like a psychologist or counselor. Of course the "call for help" is often filtered through their deteriorating mental state so instead of a short e-mail saying Hey doc, i'm really starting tO lOsE IT!...!" you end up with hundreds of pages of plotting and planning being delivered snail-mail, possibly in an effort to prove that they are indeed deteriorating in a dangerous way.
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Me321 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:53 am UTC

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/25/justice/c ... ?hpt=hp_t1

CNN is now reporting it also, but only FOX has the bit about the package sitting in the mailroom from July 12th.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby PerchloricAcid » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:02 am UTC

Thanks for the interesting insight, Dauric. :)

Martinez added, "He got along well with everybody."

Wasn't he the labeled as antisocial type three days ago?


It's really nice that
Several of the hospitals said they would pay for the medical care of uninsured victims out of charity funds.

and all other stuff such as that (loads of charity funds building up quickly etc).
However, the thing which I don't really like is that something very shitty such as this has to be done for things like that to happen. I mean, it shouldn't really matter whether you were the unfortunate victim of a (now famous) psycho who hurt you and many more people in a theatre, or the unfortunate victim of a psycho who got drunk and shot just you or the unfortunate victim or whatever/whoever.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:43 pm UTC

PerchloricAcid wrote:Thanks for the interesting insight, Dauric. :)

Martinez added, "He got along well with everybody."

Wasn't he the labeled as antisocial type three days ago?


Well, you can "get along" with someone without socializing with them much. Looking over what little information about this I can find that isn't contested...it seems clear he was an aright student for quite a while, but recently had been facing some problems. The fact that the gun club wouldn't let him attend because he "sounded crazy" indicates that he might have been changing behavior socially...some sort of slide out of normalcy. People who knew him a while ago, but hadn't hung out with him recently may not have noticed unusual behavior. Sad...but it does happen.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby PerchloricAcid » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:49 pm UTC

Well, there was this very bizarre and creepy voicemail message on his phone which was mentioned in some articles. I'm curious about what the message actually is. :|

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Dauric » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:07 pm UTC

PerchloricAcid wrote:Well, there was this very bizarre and creepy voicemail message on his phone which was mentioned in some articles. I'm curious about what the message actually is. :|


I think like a lot of evidence in this case Aurora PD is keeping pretty tight-lipped about the specifics. They're concerned, and rightly so, that too much evidence being displayed in public might make it difficult to get an impartial jury without resorting to a change of venue, which could screw the entire prosecution.
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby lutzj » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:10 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
PerchloricAcid wrote:Well, there was this very bizarre and creepy voicemail message on his phone which was mentioned in some articles. I'm curious about what the message actually is. :|


I think like a lot of evidence in this case Aurora PD is keeping pretty tight-lipped about the specifics. They're concerned, and rightly so, that too much evidence being displayed in public might make it difficult to get an impartial jury without resorting to a change of venue, which could screw the entire prosecution.


There's also the potential to encourage copycats if they reveal a lot about his motivations and methodology.
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Thesh » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:39 pm UTC

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/ ... 9720120728

Apparently he had been seeing a psychiatrist, although they mention schizophrenia, no one has actually come out and with evidence that he was schizophrenic.
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:59 pm UTC

Yup, there's pretty much no way to keep guns out of the hands of insane people with the U.S.'s current laws unless they've already been certified - rather late, all too often.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:23 am UTC

Well, if you start removing any rights from people seeking therapy, that reduces the incentive to seek therapy and thus the problems persist. It's never as simple as "we could remove rights from possibly crazy people without any repercussions".

It's similar to the current problem with pedophiles. They are mentally ill, and many know it. Many want to change. But they can't, because going to a psychiatrist with these problems can get them on a watchlist. Even if they don't commit a crime, being on that list is reason enough to be a suspect, and well you can guess how it goes.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tirian » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:42 am UTC

Jonesthe Spy wrote:Yup, there's pretty much no way to keep guns out of the hands of insane people with the U.S.'s current laws unless they've already been certified - rather late, all too often.


And it's not particularly clear that even that works in practice. HIPPA is pretty strict about who is allowed to see your medical records, and the states don't uniformly agree over whether NICS is on the list.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby sardia » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:05 am UTC

lutzj wrote:
Dauric wrote:
PerchloricAcid wrote:Well, there was this very bizarre and creepy voicemail message on his phone which was mentioned in some articles. I'm curious about what the message actually is. :|


I think like a lot of evidence in this case Aurora PD is keeping pretty tight-lipped about the specifics. They're concerned, and rightly so, that too much evidence being displayed in public might make it difficult to get an impartial jury without resorting to a change of venue, which could screw the entire prosecution.


There's also the potential to encourage copycats if they reveal a lot about his motivations and methodology.

What's there to copycat? You buy a some guns, buy some ammo, and shoot into a gathering of people.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:07 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Well, if you start removing any rights from people seeking therapy, that reduces the incentive to seek therapy and thus the problems persist. It's never as simple as "we could remove rights from possibly crazy people without any repercussions".


Yeah, that's kind of my point. The only way to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people is to have stricter gun regulations that apply to everyone.

sardia wrote:What's there to copycat? You buy a some guns, buy some ammo, and shoot into a gathering of people.


There is a LOT of data out there about the phenomenon of copycat criminals. Hell, we just saw it with this tragedy - a guy arrested after threatening to shoot up the business he just got fired from while referring to himself as The Joker. Sounds kind of pathetic, but the dude had an insane arsenal, the kind of thing that there's just no reason to allow civilians to own (and yet so many do in this wacked-out country.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/joker-threa ... n-1.895983

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:11 pm UTC

Jonesthe Spy wrote:Yeah, that's kind of my point. The only way to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people is to have stricter gun regulations that apply to everyone.

Yes, because crazy people are always law abiding citizens. And no one EVER gets their hands on illegal things!
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:19 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Well, if you start removing any rights from people seeking therapy, that reduces the incentive to seek therapy and thus the problems persist. It's never as simple as "we could remove rights from possibly crazy people without any repercussions".


That is a huge problem, yeah. You don't want people avoiding basic counseling because they're worried about losing access to gun(or other) rights. The current bar is reasonable in light of that.

Jonesthe Spy wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Well, if you start removing any rights from people seeking therapy, that reduces the incentive to seek therapy and thus the problems persist. It's never as simple as "we could remove rights from possibly crazy people without any repercussions".


Yeah, that's kind of my point. The only way to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people is to have stricter gun regulations that apply to everyone.


What level of "stricter gun regulations" would you imagine would be necessary to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people? Keep in mind that it's the unknown crazies that are the real concern here.

Jonesthe Spy wrote:
There is a LOT of data out there about the phenomenon of copycat criminals. Hell, we just saw it with this tragedy - a guy arrested after threatening to shoot up the business he just got fired from while referring to himself as The Joker. Sounds kind of pathetic, but the dude had an insane arsenal, the kind of thing that there's just no reason to allow civilians to own (and yet so many do in this wacked-out country.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/joker-threa ... n-1.895983


I count ten rifles and ten pistols in that picture. Unless you would have me believe he was some kind of twenty armed murder machine, I submit that the quantity of firearms owned is basically irrelevant to his ability to do harm. The difference between two guns and twenty is negligible.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby K-R » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:00 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:The difference between two guns and twenty is negligible.

And the difference between one gun and two is probably a tradeoff of bullets for accuracy anyway.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:16 pm UTC

koberulz wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:The difference between two guns and twenty is negligible.

And the difference between one gun and two is probably a tradeoff of bullets for accuracy anyway.


Right. Wielding multiple guns at the same time is...mostly a hollywood thing. And I'll grant you, movies such as Equilibrium look amazing....but of course, they have nothing to do with real life. As a practical matter, gun and ammo stockpiles are almost entirely meaningless.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Роберт » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:41 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Well, if you start removing any rights from people seeking therapy, that reduces the incentive to seek therapy and thus the problems persist. It's never as simple as "we could remove rights from possibly crazy people without any repercussions".

It's similar to the current problem with pedophiles. They are mentally ill, and many know it. Many want to change. But they can't, because going to a psychiatrist with these problems can get them on a watchlist. Even if they don't commit a crime, being on that list is reason enough to be a suspect, and well you can guess how it goes.

Good point. What should we do?
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:56 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Well, if you start removing any rights from people seeking therapy, that reduces the incentive to seek therapy and thus the problems persist. It's never as simple as "we could remove rights from possibly crazy people without any repercussions".

It's similar to the current problem with pedophiles. They are mentally ill, and many know it. Many want to change. But they can't, because going to a psychiatrist with these problems can get them on a watchlist. Even if they don't commit a crime, being on that list is reason enough to be a suspect, and well you can guess how it goes.

Good point. What should we do?


Honestly, "nothing" is a legitimate answer, strange though it may sound. These sorts of mass shootings are basically a rounding error on murder in general. In practical terms, there are literally thousands of things with higher impact as far as people dying goes.

Realistically, pushing availability and trying to reduce stigma/disincentives for getting medical care is probably a good idea anyway...not solely for the "going postal" cases, but for the many, many people with lesser(but still problematic) issues. May not be very dramatic or satisfying, but it's almost guaranteed to be good for society in the long haul.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby omgryebread » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:40 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
lutzj wrote:There's also the potential to encourage copycats if they reveal a lot about his motivations and methodology.

What's there to copycat? You buy a some guns, buy some ammo, and shoot into a gathering of people.
Copycat crimes might not be that simple. Learning about his motivations and methodology might make a potential copycat empathize with him more.


Izawwlgood wrote:Yes, because crazy people are always law abiding citizens. And no one EVER gets their hands on illegal things!
It's certainly perverse that we don't make it harder. I could, I suppose, attempt to find a black market dealer who doesn't care about mental health checks, though I honestly wouldn't know where to start, and how many black market gun dealers are going to trust a 4'11" white girl when she goes to buy a gun.

Or I could go to a gun show and buy one from a private individual who wouldn't be committing any crime when he sells me the weapon.
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby kiklion » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:15 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:
sardia wrote:
lutzj wrote:There's also the potential to encourage copycats if they reveal a lot about his motivations and methodology.

What's there to copycat? You buy a some guns, buy some ammo, and shoot into a gathering of people.
Copycat crimes might not be that simple. Learning about his motivations and methodology might make a potential copycat empathize with him more.


Izawwlgood wrote:Yes, because crazy people are always law abiding citizens. And no one EVER gets their hands on illegal things!
It's certainly perverse that we don't make it harder. I could, I suppose, attempt to find a black market dealer who doesn't care about mental health checks, though I honestly wouldn't know where to start, and how many black market gun dealers are going to trust a 4'11" white girl when she goes to buy a gun.

Or I could go to a gun show and buy one from a private individual who wouldn't be committing any crime when he sells me the weapon.


Not sure on your location, I live on Long Island, NY in the suburbs of NYC. I do not do drugs, I do not drink, I don't even go to parties. I am 24 and an incredibly boring person. Saying that, I can get my hands on just about any type of drug or firearm within a few days through people I used to work with. I find it hard to believe that you don't know anyone who can set you up with a black market dealer or is not one themselves, unless being in close proximity to NYC changes it out here.
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:23 pm UTC

kiklion wrote:
omgryebread wrote:
sardia wrote:
lutzj wrote:There's also the potential to encourage copycats if they reveal a lot about his motivations and methodology.

What's there to copycat? You buy a some guns, buy some ammo, and shoot into a gathering of people.
Copycat crimes might not be that simple. Learning about his motivations and methodology might make a potential copycat empathize with him more.


Izawwlgood wrote:Yes, because crazy people are always law abiding citizens. And no one EVER gets their hands on illegal things!
It's certainly perverse that we don't make it harder. I could, I suppose, attempt to find a black market dealer who doesn't care about mental health checks, though I honestly wouldn't know where to start, and how many black market gun dealers are going to trust a 4'11" white girl when she goes to buy a gun.

Or I could go to a gun show and buy one from a private individual who wouldn't be committing any crime when he sells me the weapon.


Not sure on your location, I live on Long Island, NY. I do not do drugs, I do not drink, I don't even go to parties. I am 24 and an incredibly boring person. Saying that, I can get my hands on just about any type of drug or firearm within a few days through people I used to work with. I find it hard to believe that you don't know anyone who can set you up with a black market dealer or is not one themselves, unless being in close proximity to NYC changes it out here.


I would speculate that availability of such things is probably higher in urban areas...that said, firearms are more popularly owned in rural areas, so on the specific issue of firearm availability, it may not matter much. According to Gallup, 47% of US households have one. When something is that popular, restricting access is difficult at best. It's like underage drinking. Clearly illegal, and the stores are penalized severely if they're caught breaking the laws...but still, everyone does it. There's simply so many people that own/have access to alcohol that restriction is difficult. Both items(guns and alcohol) are unlikely to change unless the culture that makes them so pervasive changes.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby sardia » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:46 am UTC

"Well, if you start removing any rights from people seeking therapy, that reduces the incentive to seek therapy and thus the problems persist. It's never as simple as "we could remove rights from possibly crazy people without any repercussions".[/quote]

That is a huge problem, yeah. You don't want people avoiding basic counseling because they're worried about losing access to gun(or other) rights. The current bar is reasonable in light of that.

Well, if you start removing any rights from people seeking therapy, that reduces the incentive to seek therapy and thus the problems persist. It's never as simple as "we could remove rights from possibly crazy people without any repercussions".

All three quotes here are missing the other side of this debate. Say someone has a severe mental illness and/or is a danger to himself or others. Would his right to firearms be curtailed? Normally yes, but due to oddities in current law, it's really easy to get the right to guns back. At the same time, it's really hard to deny people the right to arms even with clear evidence that they shouldn't have them. I'll try to dig up the article...http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/us/03 ... wanted=all
_----------------------

"What level of "stricter gun regulations" would you imagine would be necessary to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people? Keep in mind that it's the unknown crazies that are the real concern here."

This is a misunderstanding, the chance of a crazy person killing you is the same no matter where you go. Or to rephrase, the unknown crazies are no more dangerous then known crazy people.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:27 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
tyndmyr wrote:"What level of "stricter gun regulations" would you imagine would be necessary to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people? Keep in mind that it's the unknown crazies that are the real concern here."


This is a misunderstanding, the chance of a crazy person killing you is the same no matter where you go. Or to rephrase, the unknown crazies are no more dangerous then known crazy people.


The known crazy, diagnosed, etc...is much easier to manage than the undiagnosed ones. The former are already limited in some ways(depending on the type and severity of the disorder, of course), while the latter are not. Therefore, in discussing any sort of prevention scheme, the latter are significantly more problematic.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby sardia » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:19 pm UTC

If you are referring to the limits that government puts on "crazy" people in order to keep them away from guns, and then saying we should focus on the undiagnosed people. This implies that the current limitations, aka the things preventing "crazy" people from getting guns are working. I'm telling you that we can't even stop people who have been diagnosed with mental illness and have a history of violence from getting guns. You just walk up to a judge, and ask for permission for a gun. That isn't as daunting as you'd think; there's no test, no requirements, just ask, and you can start ordering all the guns you want after you walk out.
In the wake of Virgina Tech shooting, the NRA got a concession in the bill to prevent mentally ill people from getting guns. They demanded a way to petition for your guns back. What was the result? Judges forced into the position of psychologists, and that didn't turn out pretty. Go read the article that I posted, it's related.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby HungryHobo » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:05 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:I could, I suppose, attempt to find a black market dealer who doesn't care about mental health checks, though I honestly wouldn't know where to start, and how many black market gun dealers are going to trust a 4'11" white girl when she goes to buy a gun.


What would you say if I told you that germany has rules on posession of "hacking tools"?
How effective do you think said law is in keeping "hacking tools" out of the hands of people who want to break the law?

if you walked up to a random out of touch old person on the street and said "do you know where to get hacking tools" do you think such rules existing would make much difference to their answer?

If you instead asked a scruffy geeky teenager the same question do you think such rules existing would make much difference to her answer?

It's pretty much the same issues at play, the same innept attempts to keep force multipliers out of peoples hands and it's about as ineffective. the same desire to do something , no matter how pointless, rather than nothing. the same "there outta be a law" mentality. Even living in a country with strict gun control laws and a history of strict gun control laws I could have a gun in my hands in a couple of days if I ever wanted one.

You've never been interested in getting hold of black market guns. if on the other hand you'd been interested in that for any time at all you'd pretty soon find you know someone who knows someone who could hook you up.
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:37 pm UTC

sardia wrote:If you are referring to the limits that government puts on "crazy" people in order to keep them away from guns, and then saying we should focus on the undiagnosed people. This implies that the current limitations, aka the things preventing "crazy" people from getting guns are working. I'm telling you that we can't even stop people who have been diagnosed with mental illness and have a history of violence from getting guns. You just walk up to a judge, and ask for permission for a gun. That isn't as daunting as you'd think; there's no test, no requirements, just ask, and you can start ordering all the guns you want after you walk out.
In the wake of Virgina Tech shooting, the NRA got a concession in the bill to prevent mentally ill people from getting guns. They demanded a way to petition for your guns back. What was the result? Judges forced into the position of psychologists, and that didn't turn out pretty. Go read the article that I posted, it's related.


Oh, and who should adjudicate if you're legally allowed to do something, if not a judge?

I am quite certain that a judge can utilize statements from a psychologist(or other experts at his discretion) to arrive at his verdict. Are judges perfect? Of course not. But merely arguing that a judge can make a bad call applies to...basically everything that's already illegal. Or legal for that matter. Adding more laws will do exactly nothing to fix that issue, and in fact, I'm not sure what can. Judges are people, and thus, flawed.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby darkone238 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:12 pm UTC

Related-ish: http://libertycrier.com/u-s-constitutio ... australia/

tl;dw: Semi-automatic guns banned in Australia, violent crime and breakins increase by double digit percentage numbers.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:05 pm UTC

darkone238 wrote:Related-ish: http://libertycrier.com/u-s-constitutio ... australia/

tl;dw: Semi-automatic guns banned in Australia, violent crime and breakins increase by double digit percentage numbers.


Oh please, a video from an incredibly far-right gun-nut site is your source? Geez, why not just give us some quotes by Michele Bachmann to prove how Islam is going to destroy our precious way of life?

Anyway, this is such a common bit of propaganda that it has its own Snopes page: http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:24 pm UTC

Jonesthe Spy wrote:
darkone238 wrote:Related-ish: http://libertycrier.com/u-s-constitutio ... australia/

tl;dw: Semi-automatic guns banned in Australia, violent crime and breakins increase by double digit percentage numbers.


Oh please, a video from an incredibly far-right gun-nut site is your source? Geez, why not just give us some quotes by Michele Bachmann to prove how Islam is going to destroy our precious way of life?

Anyway, this is such a common bit of propaganda that it has its own Snopes page: http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp


The snopes page, while providing important clarification about matters of statistical accuracy, is bout a somewhat different statistical claim(albeit a related one).

In any case, glancing over the actual statistics, one would be hard pressed to say that the gun ban reduced violent crime. You can find areas that increased or decreased a little if you cherry pick for your side(whichever side that is), but by and large, crime rates remained about the same. Minor fluctuations in local areas or specific subcategories are mostly random noise, and shouldn't be taken seriously for either side.

However, in the absence of clear results, why else would you ban guns? Reducing freedom for additional security is at least a debate we can have about if it's worth it, but surely nobody wants reduced freedom with no benefit.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Mad Mike » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:51 pm UTC

On the subject of gun control, I have a very simple opinion on it. I would much prefer to have the ability to protect myself than to rely on my government and police for that.

On that note, I'm off to go pick up a $75 Mosin-Nagant to go bury somewhere on my property in case the anti-gun-nuts gain any ground. Especially after reading up on a certain UN arms treaty in the works.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501363_162-57482624/arms-treaty-must-wait-after-un-agreement-fails/
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/07/11/un-arms-treaty-could-put-us-gun-owners-in-foreign-sights-say-critics/

EDIT: How do you link stuff? I'm new to these forums.
Last edited by Mad Mike on Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:54 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:11 pm UTC

The national association for gun rights had some sort of petition going against that. Not sure how much good it'll do, since, yknow, petition, but I'm sure it's around if you wanted to support it. Ran into 'em at the national gun show last weekend.

Realistically, ratification of that seems wildly unlikely, as a complete gun ban in the US would be political suicide, and hell, it'd probably do terrible things economically, too. The firearms industry in the US is actually doing pretty well of late, and I can't imagine that most states have the economic stability atm to suddenly torpedo one of their better sectors of industry.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Kulantan » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:12 pm UTC

@Tyndmyr

The thing I took away from the snopes article and other sources is that the US trying to learn about gun control from Oz is like Oz trying to learn about kangaroo control from the US. The number of people with guns in Australia is so comparatively small that you wouldn't expect gun control to have an effect on crime. Especially since the major proposed mechanic for guns reducing crime is criminals being scared out of doing anything by the prevalence of guns. That is simply not going to happen in a country with such low gun ownership rates pre and post semi-auto ban.

Also, I'm calling bullshit on the whole "the snopes page, while providing important clarification about matters of statistical accuracy, is bout a somewhat different statistical claim(albeit a related one)". At 1:37 the video talks about the same violent crimes as the chain letter snopes discuses, it just has more extreme numbers. In fact it appears to be an NRA propaganda piece from 2000.

Finally, I'd debate the idea of gun ownership as a meaningful freedom. I'm not keen on the idea of a right to instruments of death that have no clear correlation with security. I'm personally of the opinion that things designed to kill folk have to be shown to be useful in general ownership rather than shown to be a problem.
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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:20 pm UTC

Kulantan wrote:@Tyndmyr

The thing I took away from the snopes article and other sources is that the US trying to learn about gun control from Oz is like Oz trying to learn about kangaroo control from the US. The number of people with guns in Australia is so comparatively small that you wouldn't expect gun control to have an effect on crime. Especially since the major proposed mechanic for guns reducing crime is criminals being scared out of doing anything by the prevalence of guns. That is simply not going to happen in a country with such low gun ownership rates pre and post semi-auto ban.


Obviously, the magnitude of any such change would be expected to be smaller. However, while societies do differ quite a lot, there's nothing inherently wrong about looking at the results of other countries.

Incidentally, an analysis of crime across all countries does not appear to be correlated to either the presence or absence of gun laws. It's just lots and lots of noise. Switzerland and Japan have very different gun regulations, for instance, yet are both fairly law abiding places*. This indicates that causes and solutions to crime are mostly to be found elsewhere.

*Shootings in japan did rise dramatically in '97-98...this is, obviously, not really worthy of mention in terms of being the fault of gun control as such...but it does indicate that gun control is not a heavy limiter on gun crime. Cultural factors seem to be vastly more important.

Also, I'm calling bullshit on the whole "the snopes page, while providing important clarification about matters of statistical accuracy, is bout a somewhat different statistical claim(albeit a related one)". At 1:37 the video talks about the same violent crimes as the chain letter snopes discuses, it just has more extreme numbers. In fact it appears to be an NRA propaganda piece from 2000.


Having different numbers is kind of a different claim. I'm not defending the movie as correct, merely pointing out that the letter snopes is refuting is not quite the same as the video.

Finally, I'd debate the idea of gun ownership as a meaningful freedom. I'm not keen on the idea of a right to instruments of death that have no clear correlation with security. I'm personally of the opinion that things designed to kill folk have to be shown to be useful in general ownership rather than shown to be a problem.


It's a freedom. It may not be one that you personally care to partake in, and that's absolutely fine. But it's a freedom that some enjoy, and taking that away from them is a cost. Without demonstrating some sort of benefit from it...that seems strange. It's logic that could apply to banning almost anything recreational.

And half the things in society now were originally designed to kill people, or are at least pretty related to killing people in some way. Technology and war are pretty heavily tied. We didn't get into nukes for power plants, and we didn't invent archery with the olympics in mind. The original purpose or design is, frankly, irrelevant. What matters is what it's used for now, and for firearms, that's overwhelmingly for shooting paper, or hunting up food, or personal security. The vast majority of people with guns have never shot them at anyone, and likely never will.
Last edited by Tyndmyr on Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:28 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Bsob » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:28 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:However, in the absence of clear results, why else would you ban guns? Reducing freedom for additional security is at least a debate we can have about if it's worth it, but surely nobody wants reduced freedom with no benefit.


It is important to understand that the anti-gun people do not own guns. So banning guns is not a loss(for them).

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:30 pm UTC

Bsob wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:However, in the absence of clear results, why else would you ban guns? Reducing freedom for additional security is at least a debate we can have about if it's worth it, but surely nobody wants reduced freedom with no benefit.


It is important to understand that the anti-gun people do not own guns. So banning guns is not a loss(for them).


True. But if it's not a gain, why pursue it? I do not own a single my little pony item, and certainly, the cultural enjoyment of them is something that baffles me...but tastes vary. There's nothing for me to gain by trying to ban things that don't match my particular tastes. Unless there's significant harm there, why seek to restrict others?

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Bsob » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:32 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Bsob wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:However, in the absence of clear results, why else would you ban guns? Reducing freedom for additional security is at least a debate we can have about if it's worth it, but surely nobody wants reduced freedom with no benefit.


It is important to understand that the anti-gun people do not own guns. So banning guns is not a loss(for them).


True. But if it's not a gain, why pursue it? I do not own a single my little pony item, and certainly, the cultural enjoyment of them is something that baffles me...but tastes vary. There's nothing for me to gain by trying to ban things that don't match my particular tastes. Unless there's significant harm there, why seek to restrict others?


It is an emotional reaction, not a logical one.

Which is why thousands of gun related deaths are ignored, but when a mass shooting happens, everyone is suddenly all about the gun control.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Dauric » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:34 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Bsob wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:However, in the absence of clear results, why else would you ban guns? Reducing freedom for additional security is at least a debate we can have about if it's worth it, but surely nobody wants reduced freedom with no benefit.


It is important to understand that the anti-gun people do not own guns. So banning guns is not a loss(for them).


True. But if it's not a gain, why pursue it? I do not own a single my little pony item, and certainly, the cultural enjoyment of them is something that baffles me...but tastes vary. There's nothing for me to gain by trying to ban things that don't match my particular tastes. Unless there's significant harm there, why seek to restrict others?


Because My Little pony isn't scary. Guns evoke an emotional response that MLP doesn't. This makes people willing to throw out the statistics, it's a marketing trick as old as marketing itself: all the information in the world can be invalidated in a person's mind if you can evoke a strong enough emotion.

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Re: Twelve killed by gunman in Denver movie theatre

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:38 pm UTC

Bsob wrote:It is an emotional reaction, not a logical one.

Which is why thousands of gun related deaths are ignored, but when a mass shooting happens, everyone is suddenly all about the gun control.


I did have some friends act ridiculously worried when I said I was going to see batman, and asked if I'd heard about the shooting. I looked at them as if they'd grown extra heads, and pointed out that the odds of me being in another mass shooting in an entirely different theater just because I'm watching the same movie is...not worth thinking about.

I consider this much the same. Mass shootings(or burnings, or bombings) are just so rare that they can be ignored. I don't worry about lightning strikes much either, and I certainly wouldn't propose changes to the entire nation with a lack of casual evidence simply because someone got hit by lightning.

Don't get me wrong...you're almost certainly right, but I've never been particularly good at understanding how/why this happens.


Edit: On another note, I can't help but wonder what the reaction will be when firearms become entirely downloadable. Now sure, I've heard of the folks printing 3d lowers and mags...and guns can definitely be made in a CNC machine...but as home manufacturing devices proliferate and more people pump in patterns, we're pretty much guaranteed to eventually hit a point where gun control is effectively stopping the flow of ideas...and this simply may not be possible at all. What happens then?


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