Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

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Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:17 am UTC

You can see it here. This is the movie that angry Egyptians stormed the US embassy over. Beeb coverage of the riots.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby omgryebread » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:20 am UTC

Actually I'm having a hard time blaming anyone for protesting that. Honestly, if there were riots here I'd join over the quality alone.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:22 am UTC

Was that movie made specifically to incite a riot? Lemme do some checking...

NYT Blog:

...
Although there was initial confusion about who made the film, The Wall Street Journal reported that the drama, titled “Innocence of Muslims,” was produced and directed by an Israeli-American, Sam Bacile, a California real-estate developer who called Islam “a cancer,” in an interview. Mr. Bacile told The Journal that he raised $5 million from about 100 Jewish donors and shot the two-hour movie in California last year.
...
Zeinobia also reported that confusion about the origins of the film was so general that one group of fundamentalist Muslims was “calling for another huge protest at the embassy of Netherlands, demanding its closure because the Dutch government is producing an insult film against Islam.” Dutch diplomats responded with a statement denying these claims, she noted.
...


So...pretty much. I'd say rioting is still a pretty inappropriate response. But I'm not unsympathetic to the sentiment behind them.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:23 am UTC

That movie cost $5 million? Are you sure the guy wasn't just making numbers up?

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:28 am UTC

Raising large amount of money for a project then pocketing most of it is a time honored tradition. Or maybe he's just really bad at making movies.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby lutzj » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:28 am UTC

And it goes on for two hours?
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Jahoclave » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:54 am UTC

lutzj wrote:And it goes on for two hours?

And here I thought The Room was a bad movie.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:56 am UTC

I got about 6m into it. Anyone get further?
The "man + x = BT [Islamic Terrorist, evidently?], BT - x = man" "yes, but what is x?" "You need to find out for yourself" annnnnd scene change to black face man in standing in front of a green screen desert, annnnd scene change to a bald white man standing in front of a... curtain? is where I quit.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:00 am UTC

I made it as far as Muhammad declaring a donkey to be the first "Muslim animal" while a man and a woman look at him as if he is a homeless schizophrenic who might stab them if they don't nod politely.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Derek » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:47 am UTC

It almost looks like a parody. Like, "Hey, let's make the most comically ridiculous movie ever, and see if we can get Muslims to protest it anyways".

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby yedidyak » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:39 am UTC

Reports now saying that four US officials were killed in Libya when the consulate in Benghazi was attacked, including the US ambassador to Libya.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:13 pm UTC

I kind of have a feeling that, especially given recent events in Egypt, "breach the embassy and shout angrily" is less severe than it sounds. People will react in a way so it appears proportional to other things they do, so if they're already "running around angrily" with their government dickishness, I kind of see why they're thinking this is appropriate. (Of course, I don't think it's appropriate - I just think one can't compare protests in a place like Egypt with a western standard for "riot".)

Also, does the Libya thing have to do with this whole movie deal? Now that is just stupid.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby pkcommando » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:32 pm UTC

Steax wrote:Also, does the Libya thing have to do with this whole movie deal? Now that is just stupid.

From the looks of it, apparently. Reports could change, but it seems to be linked to the movie.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/12/13824089-us-ambassador-3-others-killed-in-attacks-on-libya-mission?lite
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19570254

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:39 pm UTC

To paraphrase what CNN said just now, "it would be hard to say that the two events had any connection and are coordinated together."

He also noted how most "rioters" who managed to break into the Egyptian embassy were hooligans, and the entire protesting crowd was a mix of "Islamists" and hooligans.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Chen » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:44 pm UTC

So a random bigoted american makes a movie and people decide to blame the entire country for it, through violence and murder at their embassies. Yeah that makes sense :roll:

As much as I know its a small group of radicals doing this, its hard not to lump all of Islam together when no Muslim government/organization will make the statement "these idiots don't represent all of our religion" for fear of looking like they're supporting the US. It just serves to further reinforce the whole "all Muslim's are terrorists" stereotype which really doesn't help anyone.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:53 pm UTC

You do know pretty much any event like this conjures up "we condemn the attacks upon ___" responses from pretty much any politically-active Muslim country, right?

To be honest, I'm not surprised this (as in, the Egypt protest) happened. These people think the US are protecting or supporting the movie makers. So people protest at the only target they have, then anarchists take over, and violence ensues.

As for the Libya protest?

Earlier, three Libyan officials told The Associated Press that Stevens was killed Tuesday night when he and a group of embassy employees went to the consulate to try to evacuate staff. The protesters were firing gunshots and rocket-propelled grenades.


I... don't really know what to think about this one. Guns and RPGs aren't usually the first-response to a movie like this; even a coordinated retaliation takes time, not "everyone get your cannons and storm the embassy RIGHT NOW".
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby emceng » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:17 pm UTC

I agree, but at the same time, Libya has been kind of flooded with weapons. From what I recall of reports during the insurrection, there were rpgs and fully autos every freaking place. Hell, there was a story about some of the rebels blowing up their own because they didn't know how to use rpgs.

Either way, fuck them. Libya's interim president said he'll bring the culprits to justice - i.e., nothing will be done, or random dudes will get scapegoated.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby yedidyak » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:46 pm UTC

I've seen photos of the ambassador being dragged through the streets by a mob. Really horrifying.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:52 pm UTC

Yeah, most likely so. I'm more worried about the American response to Libya. It won't be pretty.

I don't "get" the reaction to the movie in Libya, though. It basically takes a worst-case interpretation for them to explicitly target the ambassador like that. It sounds to me like they've either piggybacked on the issue to get public support/a smokescreen, or they've had a lot of pent-up hate at Americans and it finally snapped.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Chen » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:18 pm UTC

Steax wrote:You do know pretty much any event like this conjures up "we condemn the attacks upon ___" responses from pretty much any politically-active Muslim country, right?


People condemn the attacks but rarely will they distance the attacks from Islam itself. I can understand why, it would be political suicide in a Muslim country. But I've never seen any Muslim government come out and say "this sort of insult to Islam does not beget violence and murder" and hence people view all Muslim's as terrorists.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:36 pm UTC

They do - I see it happen in my country all the time (often with individuals and organizations, because yeah, the ruling party has all interest in looking good). We even have (the more modern/moderate) figures actively going around doing counter-campaigns against violence. Of course, this is hardly news material, so it never gets to the west. Hell, we even have organizations with the explicit purpose of rejecting another organization known for religious violence (and of course, the only one that makes headlines is the latter).
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:40 pm UTC

Steax wrote:They do - I see it happen in my country all the time (often with individuals and organizations, because yeah, the ruling party has all interest in looking good). We even have (the more modern/moderate) figures actively going around doing counter-campaigns against violence. Of course, this is hardly news material, so it never gets to the west. Hell, we even have organizations with the explicit purpose of rejecting another organization known for religious violence (and of course, the only one that makes headlines is the latter).

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Eowiel » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:41 pm UTC

Somehow I doubt that the people who view every muslim as a terrorist are the same people who look up and analyse public statements of foreign leaders.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:32 pm UTC

The Libyan and Egyptian governments can say all they want, but did the local police forces intervene at all? If not, then condemnation is just hot air.

And killing an ambassador? Seriously? How is refusing to talk with someone the best path towards peace? You only kill diplomats if you intend to go to war with the country in question.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:44 pm UTC

Clinton did not blame the Libyan government, but rather a "small and savage group" for the violence in Benghazi.

She praised Libyans who she said helped carry the American casualties to local hospitals.

Some Libyan security officers trying to protect U.S. personnel were among those wounded in the violence, Clinton added.


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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:47 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The Libyan and Egyptian governments can say all they want, but did the local police forces intervene at all? If not, then condemnation is just hot air.
Yes, yes they did. Which is the natural assumption.

The fact that you're assuming they didn't is worrisome.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby TheSoberPirate » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:48 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:I've seen photos of the ambassador being dragged through the streets by a mob. Really horrifying.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/12 ... igh-alert/
Those photos are of the "mob" carrying the (barely) still living ambassador to the hospital, where they attempted to revive him.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:24 pm UTC

NYT: U.S. Suspects Libya Attack Was Planned

The Obama administration suspects that the fiery attack in Libya that killed the American ambassador and three other diplomats may have been planned rather than a spontaneous mob getting out of control, American officials said Wednesday.
...

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:22 pm UTC

Passing by a TV in one of the buildings in my university, I saw a news report saying that marines have entered Libya. What is this madness?

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby eran_rathan » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:25 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:Passing by a TV in one of the buildings in my university, I saw a news report saying that marines have entered Libya. What is this madness?


Marines are generally the guards at embassies, so they might've been there anyways.

EDIT: apparently, some 50 Marines are headed to Libya to improve the security at the Embassy.

http://seattletimes.com/html/politics/2 ... rines.html
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:29 pm UTC

About 50 U.S. Marines from a rapid reaction force headed to Tripoli after the attack to beef up security in response to the attack, U.S. officials said Wednesday. The unit is specially trained to retake or guard diplomatic installations and other U.S. facilities in troubled regions.
CNN

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:11 am UTC

It looks like the consensus is that these 2 incidents weren't connected.

As an aside...
Romney said an apology for American values was never the right course and that “the first response of the United States must be outrage at the breach of the sovereignty of our nation,” Romney said. “An apology for America’s values is never the right course.”


... I don't know about you guys, but I feel a great sense of worrying irony when the response of "you broke our (Muslim) values so we will attack your sovereignty (embassy)" is "you broke our (American) values so we should outrage (and presumably respond with military action, if my understanding of Romney's plans are correct)."

(not justifying either action. My irony sensors just went through the roof when I read that.)
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Thesh » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:21 am UTC

Steax wrote:
Romney said an apology for American values was never the right course and that “the first response of the United States must be outrage at the breach of the sovereignty of our nation,” Romney said. “An apology for America’s values is never the right course.”


... I don't know about you guys, but I feel a great sense of worrying irony when the response of "you broke our (Muslim) values so we will attack your sovereignty (embassy)" is "you broke our (American) values so we should outrage (and presumably respond with military action, if my understanding of Romney's plans are correct)."

(not justifying either action. My irony sensors just went through the roof when I read that.)


Also, that was a statement by the Cairo embassy before the attacks that didn't go through the administration (at least that's what they said, and I have no reason to doubt that). Romney does, however, stand by his statement anyway.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/1 ... 77295.html
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:09 am UTC

I'm reminded of Asimov's whole psychohistory ideas from the Foundation series here. some aspects of history and human behavior are completely predictable. In this case, you have some rich, bigoted twit attacking the religion that is one of the only sources of solace and dignity for millions of poor people with otherwise shitty lives, and said twit is a citizen of a country that has been a) complicit in the oppression of millions of people of said religion for decades, via their support for dictators like the Saudi royal family and the Shah of Iran and of course the Israeli Occupation, and b) directly responsible for tens of thousands of killings of believers of said religion via the invasion of Iran, Afghanistan, etc. What do YOU think is going to happen in such a situation?

It's an interesting question about responsibility, given the inevitability of the cause and effect. Does the original film maker bear the most responsibility? The Egyptian media for reporting on the Youtube video that might have otherwise been ignored and unknown? Is it solely the rioters fault and no one else bears any blame? And the BBC is reporting that the supposed film maker may just be a pseudonym and no one knows who actually made the film. Was it a deliberate attempt to stir up a reaction by Muslim fundies to further some other political goal?

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Tirian » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:21 am UTC

I think what disappoints me the most is Mitt Romney's evident belief that Terry Jones' xenophobic fuckwittery is an American value that we're all obligated to defend because it's an American who is saying it. Jackass.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Eomund » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:34 am UTC

Jonesthe Spy wrote:It's an interesting question about responsibility, given the inevitability of the cause and effect. Does the original film maker bear the most responsibility? The Egyptian media for reporting on the Youtube video that might have otherwise been ignored and unknown? Is it solely the rioters fault and no one else bears any blame? And the BBC is reporting that the supposed film maker may just be a pseudonym and no one knows who actually made the film. Was it a deliberate attempt to stir up a reaction by Muslim fundies to further some other political goal?


I believe in personal responsibility. Even though one may be offended or even outraged, one is responsible for ones actions. This works on both sides. The filmmarker(s) are responsible for knowingly creating a provoking film. (I must admit I haven't seen it, but it seems they did intend to cause a reaction). On the other hand, the rioters are responsible for the damage they caused. Someone pissing you off doesn't justify violence (even if they are deliberately pissing you off).

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:57 am UTC

http://m.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/09/does-not-represent-us-moving-photos-pro-american-rallies-libya/56803/

Libyans come out to say the move doesn't represent their country.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby fifiste » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:11 am UTC

Steax wrote:Romney said an apology for American values was never the right course and that “the first response of the United States must be outrage at the breach of the sovereignty of our nation,” Romney said. “An apology for America’s values is never the right course.

... I don't know about you guys, but I feel a great sense of worrying irony when the response of "you broke our (Muslim) values so we will attack your sovereignty (embassy)" is "you broke our (American) values so we should outrage (and presumably respond with military action, if my understanding of Romney's plans are correct)."

(not justifying either action. My irony sensors just went through the roof when I read that.)


Is it less ironical when thought of that - Your attacked our sovereign territory because you thought bad of our valuesAttacked our sovereign territory for whatever, we don't need to apologise for our values, we don't need to apologise for your citizens attacking our territory.

Jonesthe Spy wrote:It's an interesting question about responsibility, given the inevitability of the cause and effect. Does the original film maker bear the most responsibility? The Egyptian media for reporting on the Youtube video that might have otherwise been ignored and unknown? Is it solely the rioters fault and no one else bears any blame? And the BBC is reporting that the supposed film maker may just be a pseudonym and no one knows who actually made the film. Was it a deliberate attempt to stir up a reaction by Muslim fundies to further some other political goal?


It is a time honoured tradition on these boards to call this kind of statements as evil evil victim blaming. Esp. if you look into any thread concerning rape. It is quite a common to see that any suggestions that the victim might have something done to not be placed into the attack are pure evil. Like if you'd give someone suggestions that maybe s/he shouldn't get drunk out of the mind around bunch of assholes in the middle of nowhere.
Well I'm not so radical. But I tend to agree on the general idea - being raped/beaten/killed etc. because you were "asking for it" by wearing a mini-skirt/t-shirt with zombie mohammed is not a something a victim should be blamed for. There are obviously stupid and less than safe ideas of where to go and what to do - but the whole of the BLAME lies on the perpetrator. Otherwise you should do nothing never leave your home, someone might attack you or you might get hit by a car! But alas staying at home leads to obesity and a higher chance of getting burned in!
So on the grand arena, yes there are things a nations citizens can do that piss off other nations citizens, that might even be obviously stupid etc. But then its the others nations who are to be responsible for keeping their citizens on line to not attack your territory or citizens. Just like a potential mugger or a rapist should be held responsible no matter how flashy jewellery you wear on your skimpy outfit when you are drunkenly strolling through an un-policed are in bad neighbourhood.
Eomund wrote: I believe in personal responsibility. Even though one may be offended or even outraged, one is responsible for ones actions. This works on both sides. The filmmarker(s) are responsible for knowingly creating a provoking film. (I must admit I haven't seen it, but it seems they did intend to cause a reaction). On the other hand, the rioters are responsible for the damage they caused. Someone pissing you off doesn't justify violence (even if they are deliberately pissing you off).

Stuff in the lines of that.


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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby sardia » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:35 am UTC

Anyone check out the origins of the video yet? It's very peculiar since nobody can find the director, or who funded it. The actors were given different lines, and scenes were spliced together and dubbed over. Then someone translated it to Arabic, where it was picked up by Salafis who made it go viral. The allegations that this was a false flag version of a terrorist attack is definite possibility.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/world ... ?ref=world

If this is a terrorist attack, it's pretty ingenious. Every individual step was legal and everyone involved was willing. All you need is some video editing skills, some deceptions, and an anti muslim groups to support it. Protests erupt, and you have a perfect opportunity to storm the gates while the police are busy dealing with angry muslims. <<<<<Total speculation.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Williks » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:25 am UTC

fifiste wrote:It is a time honoured tradition on these boards to call this kind of statements as evil evil victim blaming. Esp. if you look into any thread concerning rape. It is quite a common to see that any suggestions that the victim might have something done to not be placed into the attack are pure evil. Like if you'd give someone suggestions that maybe s/he shouldn't get drunk out of the mind around bunch of assholes in the middle of nowhere.
Well I'm not so radical. But I tend to agree on the general idea - being raped/beaten/killed etc. because you were "asking for it" by wearing a mini-skirt/t-shirt with zombie mohammed is not a something a victim should be blamed for. There are obviously stupid and less than safe ideas of where to go and what to do - but the whole of the BLAME lies on the perpetrator. Otherwise you should do nothing never leave your home, someone might attack you or you might get hit by a car! But alas staying at home leads to obesity and a higher chance of getting burned in!
So on the grand arena, yes there are things a nations citizens can do that piss off other nations citizens, that might even be obviously stupid etc. But then its the others nations who are to be responsible for keeping their citizens on line to not attack your territory or citizens. Just like a potential mugger or a rapist should be held responsible no matter how flashy jewellery you wear on your skimpy outfit when you are drunkenly strolling through an un-policed are in bad neighbourhood.

I don't think it really makes sense to compare victim blaming in the case of a rape to what are essentially fighting words. There is nothing wrong with dressing however you want and getting as drunk as you want. There is something wrong with producing and distributing a film that's designed to espouse bigotry and inflame religious conflict. The other thing to note is that the producers here aren't just putting their own safety on the line. Its not as if the people killed in response to this video were involved at all in it's production. The filmmakers are presumably living quite comfortably right now. So I do feel there is a difference when you're putting other people's lives at risk just to make some petty political statement.


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