Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby bentheimmigrant » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:49 am UTC

fifiste wrote:
Jonesthe Spy wrote:It's an interesting question about responsibility, given the inevitability of the cause and effect. Does the original film maker bear the most responsibility? The Egyptian media for reporting on the Youtube video that might have otherwise been ignored and unknown? Is it solely the rioters fault and no one else bears any blame? And the BBC is reporting that the supposed film maker may just be a pseudonym and no one knows who actually made the film. Was it a deliberate attempt to stir up a reaction by Muslim fundies to further some other political goal?


It is a time honoured tradition on these boards to call this kind of statements as evil evil victim blaming. Esp. if you look into any thread concerning rape. It is quite a common to see that any suggestions that the victim might have something done to not be placed into the attack are pure evil.

The thing is, there's nothing in that about the victims (and in threads such as you refer to, rape culture receives plenty of blame). The outcome was foreseeable (indeed that is likely an understatement - considering that the type of person who would make such a video should be welled versed in the history of these types of revenge attacks). So yes, the decision to do something that has a foreseeable bad outcome (or as I suspect in this case, because it has a foreseeable bad outcome) does come with some responsibility. Is the film maker a victim? Not at all. He's an idiot who chose to incite violence, with the knowledge that he'd be nowhere near the receiving end.

The fact that the perpetrators are responsible for their actions goes without saying. No one here questions their agency. The issue is that the film maker chose to make the film despite his prior knowledge that this would almost certainly inspire them to violence.

On a slightly different note, I've been wondering the past couple days if the governments that the rioters (whether in this case in Egypt, or past cases such as Afghanistan) used to be under have some impact on these situations. That is, living under an oppressive government for so long, where media and ideas were strictly controlled, things that were allowed could be assumed to be approved or even encouraged by the state. Thus, when a few Americans do something offensive, do some people look at the American government as responsible (that is, since governments in their mind have final say, America as a nation approved or even generated the content).
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby yedidyak » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:23 pm UTC

TheSoberPirate wrote:
yedidyak wrote:I've seen photos of the ambassador being dragged through the streets by a mob. Really horrifying.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09/12 ... igh-alert/
Those photos are of the "mob" carrying the (barely) still living ambassador to the hospital, where they attempted to revive him.


My bad. I saw the pics with a different caption before that was in the news.

Meanwhile, protests in Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Gaza and Tel-Aviv.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:41 pm UTC

@what Ben said about the local governments having an effect:

Yes, totally. For these people, globalization and the Internet have brought untold levels of content to people who comfortably lived in their own little bubble, enforcing their ideals - from bubbles as large as a country to those as small as a village. What's worse is that these things are alien to them - they don't understand how this happens across all religions and groups, from everyone and anyone, and they see it as a personal insult.

And then, of course, the more open and civilized west sees this as closed-mindedness.

The conflict/misunderstanding goes both ways, and is quite heavily dominated by culture and history - clearly countries more exposed to war and less exposed to globalization make the worst examples.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Zamfir » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:25 pm UTC

Some might indeed be particular to isolated societies, but part is very universal. Everyone is more sensitive to differences at home than to differences far away.

Just look at this thread. It goes from protests in Egypt to a military-style assault in Libya, and no one blinks an eye. Had there been protests in Washington and an armed attack in London, you can bet there would have been two threads. Quite possibly, some of the people on the forum would have been among the Washington protestors, and they would explain their views of the attacks in London. And of course, no newspaper have confused a killing g mob from a friendly mob, if itppened in their own country.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Iulus Cofield » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:43 pm UTC

Did anyone else notice the large amount of amateurish dubbing in the trailer? Or wonder how the filmmaker managed to find an entire cast either okay with or destitute enough to accept such a blatantly offensive script?

He didn't. He lied to the actors and dubbed over their lines to turn a bad movie into an incendiary one:

Film's Cast and Crew Were Misled

...
"It was going to be a film based on how things were 2,000 years ago," Garcia said. "It wasn't based on anything to do with religion, it was just on how things were run in Egypt. There wasn't anything about Muhammed or Muslims or anything."
In the script and during the shooting, nothing indicated the controversial nature of the final product. Muhammed wasn't even called Muhammed; he was "Master George," Garcia said. The words Muhammed were dubbed over in post-production, as were essentially all other offensive references to Islam and Muhammed.
Garcia was horrified when she saw the end product, and when protesters in Libya killed four U.S. Embassy employee.
"I had nothing to do really with anything. Now we have people dead because of a movie I was in. It makes me sick."
...

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:58 pm UTC

Okay, the Associated Press seems to have tracked down the creator of the film, and the story just gets weirder - a criminal Egyptian Christian who was trying to pass the blame for the creation of the film onto Jews? Whatever the case, incitement to violence definitely seems to have been part - if not the entire - agenda. From Slate.com:

It looks like the Associated Press has solved the mystery of who was behind the anti-Islam film believed to have sparked this week's violent protests at U.S. missions in Egypt, Libya, and throughout the Middle East.

That man is Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, a 55-year-old Coptic Christian with a criminal past who lives in California, according to the news wire's digging, which has been backed up by a federal law enforcement official.

In an interview with the AP, Nakoula admitted to providing logistical support for the production of Innocence of Muslims but denied being "Sam Bacile," the name given as the film's maker. But the evidence cobbled together by AP reporters Gillian Flaccus and Stephen Braun suggests otherwise.

The AP was one of a handful of media outlets to publish an interview early Wednesday with a man who claimed to be Bacile. Reporters traced the cellphone number used during that interview to Nakoula's address and, once there, noticed that Nakoula covered up his middle name of "Basseley" with his thumb when displaying his driver's license.

A little more digging on the part of Flaccus and Braun led to the discovery that Nakoula pleaded no contest in 2010 to bank fraud charges, had used numerous aliases in the past, and had a number of connections to the Bacile persona. An unnamed U.S. law enforcement official later confirmed to the AP that they had the right man.

Religion Dispatch's Sarah Posner appears to have been the first reporter to raise doubts about Bacile on Wednesday, noting that the man who spoke with the media gave conflicting details about himself.

Over the course of the day, those doubts grew, with reporters noting that despite a claim that the film cost $5 million—which "Bacile" claimed to have raised from 100 Israeli donors—it had comically poor production value.

A 13-minute trailer for the film portrays Mohammed as a pedophile-appeasing, bumbling spreader of false doctrine. Notably, as On the Media spotted, all of the more controversial lines in the trailer were dubbed in later, apparently to keep the film's actors and crew from knowing what they were working on.

Nakoula apparently went to Terry Jones, the Florida-based, Quran-burning pastor, a few weeks ago for help promoting the film. In an interview with the Daily Beast, Jones admitted that the film's negative portrayal of the Mohammed could cause violence, but he said he does not regret exercising free speech.


Explains the dubbing, for one thing - even the actors were duped into making propaganda without their knowledge.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:29 pm UTC

There are people in this world who want to bring about the End Times, Christian or Muslim, and this sounds EXACTLY like the kind of thing that such a person would do to contribute to their cause.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:30 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:There are people in this world who want to bring about the End Times, Christian or Muslim, and this sounds EXACTLY like the kind of thing that such a person would do to contribute to their cause.


Sometimes, I really wish the world sounded less like a game of Call of Cthulhu.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Coyne » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:41 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That movie cost $5 million? Are you sure the guy wasn't just making numbers up?


Probably $50,000 for the movie and the rest in profit. Anyone want to donate money to me for a documentary?
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Radical_Initiator » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:43 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:That movie cost $5 million? Are you sure the guy wasn't just making numbers up?


Probably $50,000 for the movie and the rest in profit. Anyone want to donate money to me for a documentary?

Only if I can play the insanely caricatured and defamatory version of a sacrosanct prophet. I'm thinking Elijah ... ON WEED.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:01 am UTC

Radical_Initiator wrote:
Coyne wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:That movie cost $5 million? Are you sure the guy wasn't just making numbers up?


Probably $50,000 for the movie and the rest in profit. Anyone want to donate money to me for a documentary?

Only if I can play the insanely caricatured and defamatory version of a sacrosanct prophet. I'm thinking Elijah ... ON WEED.


Considering that the actual tradition is that on Passover, he goes to every house and drinks a cup of wine, he's already the worst Santa ever.

Also, more fun from the bible! That "rib" that women were created from? Was the baculum; the penis bone. Humans are one of the few mammals without a bacculum, and the story was in part an explanation for that.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:05 am UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:There are people in this world who want to bring about the End Times, Christian or Muslim, and this sounds EXACTLY like the kind of thing that such a person would do to contribute to their cause.


I also can't help but wonder if there are any other folks who would benefit from this whole mess. Hmm, who benefits from a big foreign policy mess right before an American election? One does not have to point fingers at the party out of the White House - could be anyone who thinks they would benefit from a change of power. or someone who could benefit in a completely different way from seeing a wave of anti-American violence and instability in the Middle East.

And if that seems too conspiracy minded, I encourage you to ask yourself WHY a former meth maker suddenly turns to making anti-Islamic propaganda that is suddenly splashed across the Arab world.

http://www.salon.com/2012/09/13/innocence_of_muslims_filmmaker_was_also_a_meth_cook/

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby sardia » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:58 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:That movie cost $5 million? Are you sure the guy wasn't just making numbers up?


Probably $50,000 for the movie and the rest in profit. Anyone want to donate money to me for a documentary?

Or...maybe he lied to make it seem like wealthy jews were involved in the making of the film. If they can find the evidence for it, I'm sure this would almost count as conspiracy to incite violence or something.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:10 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Coyne wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:That movie cost $5 million? Are you sure the guy wasn't just making numbers up?


Probably $50,000 for the movie and the rest in profit. Anyone want to donate money to me for a documentary?

Or...maybe he lied to make it seem like wealthy jews were involved in the making of the film. If they can find the evidence for it, I'm sure this would almost count as conspiracy to incite violence or something.


Consensus among the news gatherers seems to be that he lied - someone wanted to stir up a LOT of trouble.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby bentheimmigrant » Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:43 am UTC

sardia wrote:Or...maybe he lied to make it seem like wealthy jews were involved in the making of the film. If they can find the evidence for it, I'm sure this would almost count as conspiracy to incite violence or something.

Now, in the UK he'd almost certainly be facing charges of inciting hatred/violence... but surely he's safe under the First Amendment?
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Tirian » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:28 am UTC

Hard to predict. Freedom of speech certainly isn't absolute, even in the United States. If someone is engaging in any practice that undermines national security and puts our soldiers and diplomats in harm's way, it seems very natural to ask if that falls under our new understanding of terrorism or our traditional understanding of treason.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:38 am UTC

Inciting people to commit crimes can be a crime in the US, but IIRC, it has to be an explicit call for people to commit crimes, not a mere provocation through offensive speech.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby kiklion » Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:47 am UTC

Jonesthe Spy wrote:Okay, the Associated Press seems to have tracked down the creator of the film, and the story just gets weirder - a criminal Egyptian Christian who was trying to pass the blame for the creation of the film onto Jews? Whatever the case, incitement to violence definitely seems to have been part - if not the entire - agenda. From Slate.com:

It looks like the Associated Press has solved the mystery of who was behind the anti-Islam film believed to have sparked this week's violent protests at U.S. missions in Egypt, Libya, and throughout the Middle East.

That man is Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, a 55-year-old Coptic Christian with a criminal past who lives in California, according to the news wire's digging, which has been backed up by a federal law enforcement official.

In an interview with the AP, Nakoula admitted to providing logistical support for the production of Innocence of Muslims but denied being "Sam Bacile," the name given as the film's maker. But the evidence cobbled together by AP reporters Gillian Flaccus and Stephen Braun suggests otherwise.

The AP was one of a handful of media outlets to publish an interview early Wednesday with a man who claimed to be Bacile. Reporters traced the cellphone number used during that interview to Nakoula's address and, once there, noticed that Nakoula covered up his middle name of "Basseley" with his thumb when displaying his driver's license.

A little more digging on the part of Flaccus and Braun led to the discovery that Nakoula pleaded no contest in 2010 to bank fraud charges, had used numerous aliases in the past, and had a number of connections to the Bacile persona. An unnamed U.S. law enforcement official later confirmed to the AP that they had the right man.

Religion Dispatch's Sarah Posner appears to have been the first reporter to raise doubts about Bacile on Wednesday, noting that the man who spoke with the media gave conflicting details about himself.

Over the course of the day, those doubts grew, with reporters noting that despite a claim that the film cost $5 million—which "Bacile" claimed to have raised from 100 Israeli donors—it had comically poor production value.

A 13-minute trailer for the film portrays Mohammed as a pedophile-appeasing, bumbling spreader of false doctrine. Notably, as On the Media spotted, all of the more controversial lines in the trailer were dubbed in later, apparently to keep the film's actors and crew from knowing what they were working on.

Nakoula apparently went to Terry Jones, the Florida-based, Quran-burning pastor, a few weeks ago for help promoting the film. In an interview with the Daily Beast, Jones admitted that the film's negative portrayal of the Mohammed could cause violence, but he said he does not regret exercising free speech.


Explains the dubbing, for one thing - even the actors were duped into making propaganda without their knowledge.


I know the following line is coming from a difference in culture, but this is exactly why people should stop getting riled up over speech.


Iulus Cofield wrote:Inciting people to commit crimes can be a crime in the US, but IIRC, it has to be an explicit call for people to commit crimes, not a mere provocation through offensive speech.



This is true. There is no legal basis that I know of that the producer can be charged under in the US. Possibly a civil suit from the actors in the movie for misrepresenting them.

I wonder how much the people protesting realize they are being used. Even if all of the actors and producers really want to spread hatred against Muslims, this movie would not of done so. Those who already hate Muslims will continue, and those who don't will continue to not. However, by also knowing that if it was released there would be protests and the protests would probably turn violent in some areas, he would be able to spread hatred against Muslims by using their reaction against them. At least, if not hatred against Muslims, it would be spreading hatred against Arabic countries that have violent protests.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:03 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Did anyone else notice the large amount of amateurish dubbing in the trailer? Or wonder how the filmmaker managed to find an entire cast either okay with or destitute enough to accept such a blatantly offensive script?

He didn't. He lied to the actors and dubbed over their lines to turn a bad movie into an incendiary one:

Film's Cast and Crew Were Misled


See, even if you think your goal is the most honorable one in the world...if absolutely nobody is willing to help you unless you decieve them into doing it...you should probably take another good hard look at your plan. There's probably a flaw in there somewhere.

I have no doubt that this fellow wanted to stir up trouble...that bit is predictable, at least. The question is why he wanted the trouble. Is it some half-cocked political idea? Is it a shameless money grab since publicity can bring viewers? I mean, he ends up being pretty morally bankrupt either way, but I am a bit curious to learn the plan behind it all.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:18 pm UTC

kiklion wrote:I wonder how much the people protesting realize they are being used. Even if all of the actors and producers really want to spread hatred against Muslims, this movie would not of done so. Those who already hate Muslims will continue, and those who don't will continue to not. However, by also knowing that if it was released there would be protests and the protests would probably turn violent in some areas, he would be able to spread hatred against Muslims by using their reaction against them. At least, if not hatred against Muslims, it would be spreading hatred against Arabic countries that have violent protests.


I want to know this too. The sad truth is that local media (usually newspapers) are horrifyingly skewed towards one direction, and many of them will avoid telling the masses the complicated truth - saying "they hate us" is a much faster and easier explanation for the same reason (even western [1] [2] [3]) media simply calls this an "Anti-Islam movie".

I personally suspect a more throw-gasoline-in-the-fire story; trouble's brewing all over there as it is, and, political or not, they want to cause more trouble in the region. Muslim hatred could be a second goal, but anyone stirring up trouble about Muslims would absolutely know that the Arab Spring is on the brink of chaos as it is.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby sardia » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:29 pm UTC

kiklion wrote:
Jonesthe Spy wrote:Okay, the Associated Press seems to have tracked down the creator of the film, and the story just gets weirder - a criminal Egyptian Christian who was trying to pass the blame for the creation of the film onto Jews? Whatever the case, incitement to violence definitely seems to have been part - if not the entire - agenda. From Slate.com:

It looks like the Associated Press has solved the mystery of who was behind the anti-Islam film believed to have sparked this week's violent protests at U.S. missions in Egypt, Libya, and throughout the Middle East.

That man is Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, a 55-year-old Coptic Christian with a criminal past who lives in California, according to the news wire's digging, which has been backed up by a federal law enforcement official.

In an interview with the AP, Nakoula admitted to providing logistical support for the production of Innocence of Muslims but denied being "Sam Bacile," the name given as the film's maker. But the evidence cobbled together by AP reporters Gillian Flaccus and Stephen Braun suggests otherwise.

The AP was one of a handful of media outlets to publish an interview early Wednesday with a man who claimed to be Bacile. Reporters traced the cellphone number used during that interview to Nakoula's address and, once there, noticed that Nakoula covered up his middle name of "Basseley" with his thumb when displaying his driver's license.

A little more digging on the part of Flaccus and Braun led to the discovery that Nakoula pleaded no contest in 2010 to bank fraud charges, had used numerous aliases in the past, and had a number of connections to the Bacile persona. An unnamed U.S. law enforcement official later confirmed to the AP that they had the right man.

Religion Dispatch's Sarah Posner appears to have been the first reporter to raise doubts about Bacile on Wednesday, noting that the man who spoke with the media gave conflicting details about himself.

Over the course of the day, those doubts grew, with reporters noting that despite a claim that the film cost $5 million—which "Bacile" claimed to have raised from 100 Israeli donors—it had comically poor production value.

A 13-minute trailer for the film portrays Mohammed as a pedophile-appeasing, bumbling spreader of false doctrine. Notably, as On the Media spotted, all of the more controversial lines in the trailer were dubbed in later, apparently to keep the film's actors and crew from knowing what they were working on.

Nakoula apparently went to Terry Jones, the Florida-based, Quran-burning pastor, a few weeks ago for help promoting the film. In an interview with the Daily Beast, Jones admitted that the film's negative portrayal of the Mohammed could cause violence, but he said he does not regret exercising free speech.


Explains the dubbing, for one thing - even the actors were duped into making propaganda without their knowledge.


I know the following line is coming from a difference in culture, but this is exactly why people should stop getting riled up over speech.


Iulus Cofield wrote:Inciting people to commit crimes can be a crime in the US, but IIRC, it has to be an explicit call for people to commit crimes, not a mere provocation through offensive speech.



This is true. There is no legal basis that I know of that the producer can be charged under in the US. Possibly a civil suit from the actors in the movie for misrepresenting them.

I wonder how much the people protesting realize they are being used. Even if all of the actors and producers really want to spread hatred against Muslims, this movie would not of done so. Those who already hate Muslims will continue, and those who don't will continue to not. However, by also knowing that if it was released there would be protests and the protests would probably turn violent in some areas, he would be able to spread hatred against Muslims by using their reaction against them. At least, if not hatred against Muslims, it would be spreading hatred against Arabic countries that have violent protests.

I have a hard time telling if this is part of the "end the world crowd", incite violence crowd, or I hate muslims crowd.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Chen » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:32 pm UTC

Protests and violence spread around http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19602177

For some odd reason the German and UK embassies were also attacked, despite not having anything to do with the film.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby bentheimmigrant » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:50 pm UTC

I guess it's just an excuse to take out lingering frustration. Pretty much the entire third world (probably rightly) hates the UK. I don't know why they'd go after Germany, though.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Nomic » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:51 pm UTC

Probably people who have problems with western countries in general using the protests as an excuse/opportunity to do their own thing.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby sam_i_am » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:53 pm UTC

Steax wrote:
kiklion wrote:I wonder how much the people protesting realize they are being used. Even if all of the actors and producers really want to spread hatred against Muslims, this movie would not of done so. Those who already hate Muslims will continue, and those who don't will continue to not. However, by also knowing that if it was released there would be protests and the protests would probably turn violent in some areas, he would be able to spread hatred against Muslims by using their reaction against them. At least, if not hatred against Muslims, it would be spreading hatred against Arabic countries that have violent protests.


I want to know this too. The sad truth is that local media (usually newspapers) are horrifyingly skewed towards one direction, and many of them will avoid telling the masses the complicated truth - saying "they hate us" is a much faster and easier explanation for the same reason (even western [1] [2] [3]) media simply calls this an "Anti-Islam movie".

I personally suspect a more throw-gasoline-in-the-fire story; trouble's brewing all over there as it is, and, political or not, they want to cause more trouble in the region. Muslim hatred could be a second goal, but anyone stirring up trouble about Muslims would absolutely know that the Arab Spring is on the brink of chaos as it is.


There was someone talking about this on NPR, and they mentioned that the image in Lybia is that this movie is on all the major TV Networks in the US, and that everyone has seen it.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:12 am UTC

Some local Indonesian media also gives this impression. Some others, of course, more accurately describe the controversy and status of the movie, but angry people are just as good as politicians in quote-sniping.

Edit: More stuff:

CIA says it was Al-Qaeda all over again

Ambassador Stevens died of smoke inhalation after being separated from his escort, making the death less direct than what some assumed.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Djehutynakht » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:22 am UTC

What really pisses me off about this particular aspect of the Muslim world (not all the muslim world, mind you, just this part), or perhaps just the world in general is how we get to make fun of people.

Jesus. Let's face it. With perhaps the exceptance of the Vatican, you can make fun of Jesus however you want, wherever you want. We have Jesus mockery coming out the bazoo all over the world. And I accept that. But if anyone tries to mock Mohammed, even in an intellectual and not a completely ridiculous way, they immediantly get ten death threats and a riot starts somewhere. It's so goddamn intolerant. There have been people who have recieved death threats for even trying to come up with an intellectual, historic documentary about the birth of Islam.

Something honestly needs to change here. Degrading any religion isn't the best thing to do, but this kind of backlash for it is ridiculous.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:39 am UTC

It's a combination of misguided, biased media (developing countries = less transparent media) and a higher conservative-to-liberal ratio. If anything needs to be done to help this issue get out of the way, it's to fix those issues.

Media transparency is a big thing because they're biasing the people. The internet is doing leaps and bounds to help with this, but it will take time for startups and big blog-like sites to achieve similar status like big media companies. Big media is almost always interested in advancing their political agendas, and that usually means fanning the flames for whatever they want. This is also why I think it's okay for the US to "apologize", though that might not be the right word. The US must make it clear that this does not represent their country, in the same way the Libyans and Egyptians are making clear the attacks do not represent them, by apologizing.

The conservative-to-liberal ratio is growing more balanced with the higher-income, globally-exposed, modern younger generation, many of whom are raised in more liberal schools. The asian Muslim countries are mainly 2-3 generations away from their independence, so the concepts of civilization, democracy and freedom from their imperial rulers are finally setting in. The middle-east are also taking further steps, especially in some such as Qatar.

I'm going to side with most sociological analysis and say it's an issue of time and economy. The people participating in riots aren't the educated middle-to-higher class (we know this because we already saw what a middle-class protest looks like) - they're mostly the lower-income society with less access to transparent media and education. They're also easier for interested parties like Al-Qaeda to influence and manipulate.

I see this as a compound issue - the Muslim world holds many people in that phase of manipulation, while also having a hair-trigger they can pull at any time. Saying "we hate the Americans, they're stealing our natural resources and threaten our people with yada yada" is hard. Saying "LOOK THEY'RE INSULTING OUR PROPHET" is easy.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby sardia » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:41 am UTC

Unfortunately, muslim societies are so repressed that they think the news is controlled by the government and that everything they hear is sanitized. This means that if they hear news of a US video, that obviously means that the US government approved it since that's how it works in oligarch-istan. In addition, people live very conservative lives, so nobody is used to the concept of free speech that extends into the religious or political sphere. So what does the US do to respond to this? They demand more protections from protestors and more security, and that's it. No heart to heart talk, no education to the poor; just suppression of violence.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Zamfir » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:48 am UTC

Is that really misguided though? The US government could make attempts to stop the video. At the very least, they could voice disapproval of the video. Someone tried to do the latter, but got reprimanded from the very highest level.

Those things are choices. The American government , and the public at large, considers insults as not very important, and free speech a lot. That's an understandable choice (and one followed by quite some other countries), but it's still a choice. If people who take insults mkre serious disagree, then it makes perfect sense to voice part of the anger at the government who could take actions to stop it, but doesn't.

For example, when a country decides that a certain drug is not illegal, and people in that country start exporting drugs to the US, the US definitely holds that country's government partially responsible for not stopping this. Same for, say, exports to Iran, or overfishing, or tax-shelters. Or copyright infringement, even of this same video.

If that government says 'we don't think drugs are a big problem, that freedom is much important, and we think you should do the same', then Americans don't care either. Instead of protesting at the embassy, they send diplomatic threats until the country changes its policy. That's because they have more clout than protestors who want a video banned.

EDIt: to prevent misunderstandings: I do not intend to imply that the US should stop this video. Just that the principle of holding a government responsible for not stopping its citizens is common even at the highest levels. It's not just something of stupid rubes who misunderstand the world.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Steax » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:17 am UTC

I'm not sure if sardia has any sarcasm in that post... Because I've posted several times across 2 threads that muslim societies aren't all as backward as many think, and the easiest way to solve the whole issue is to let the more modern societies take over/absorb the other ones.

As for the US government's response, the White House is asking Google to pull the video from YouTube.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Adamah » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:36 pm UTC

You know what I find funny in all this? Bush used to say that the Islamists "hate our freedom". I, like a lot of people, laughed at that. I guess Bush has been a bit vindicated.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:51 pm UTC

Steax wrote:As for the US government's response, the White House is asking Google to pull the video from YouTube.

Talking to a friend about this, he had a fairly apt point I thought, and I'm curious to hear what other people think about it;
It's spoilered for possible trigger
Spoiler:
He said he hated how people treated offending Muslims with cartoons or whatever the same way people blamed rape victims. "If you didn't want to incite violence, you shouldn't have made that cartoon" is rather identical to "If you didn't want to get raped, you shouldn't have worn that skirt".

I think that's quite on point.

Good Slate article for why this shit needs to stop.
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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Eowiel » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:32 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Talking to a friend about this, he had a fairly apt point I thought, and I'm curious to hear what other people think about it;
It's spoilered for possible trigger


I guess pulling the movie now is more about common sense than blaming someone. People are dying for that movie for no good reason. There are times where you have to stand up for your principles even at great cost, but I don't think this is such an occasion.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Wnderer » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:43 pm UTC

Eowiel wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Talking to a friend about this, he had a fairly apt point I thought, and I'm curious to hear what other people think about it;
It's spoilered for possible trigger


I guess pulling the movie now is more about common sense than blaming someone. People are dying for that movie for no good reason. There are times where you have to stand up for your principles even at great cost, but I don't think this is such an occasion.


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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Shivahn » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:16 pm UTC

Adamah wrote:You know what I find funny in all this? Bush used to say that the Islamists "hate our freedom". I, like a lot of people, laughed at that. I guess Bush has been a bit vindicated.

They don't hate our freedoms, they hate how they're being used.

When some jerk is yelling "FAGGOT" in the streets, I don't think "Man, fuck the first amendment!"

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby fifiste » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:27 pm UTC

You don't chop his head off either.
The thing is if your hate on some kind of speech is strong enough to do whatever to stop it then when while you might not hate the freedom of expression, you will be inimical to it nonetheless. Hate or no hate you are still going to destroy it.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby Shivahn » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:35 pm UTC

Ok.

Destroying freedom of expression because you're trying to stop people from doing something is still entirely different from hating people because they have freedom of expression.

Even if it's functionally the same, it's simply incorrect to say that the raw existence of the freedom is what someone hates.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:36 pm UTC

fifiste wrote:You don't chop his head off either.
The thing is if your hate on some kind of speech is strong enough to do whatever to stop it then when while you might not hate the freedom of expression, you will be inimical to it nonetheless. Hate or no hate you are still going to destroy it.
Maybe, yeah--but hating some dude because of what he said--then chopping off his head to stop him from saying it--is different from hating the freedom that allows said dude to say it.

Though, functionally, I don't see a tremendous amount of difference.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

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Re: Egyptians riot over low-quality movie

Postby fifiste » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:48 pm UTC

Yep they HATE OUR FREEDOM, is just a political appeal to emotion nonsense. Though as a practical man I'm rather worried about the: "We theoretically do not hate it but in practice we are doing our part to see it destroyed." thingy.


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