756*

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Swordfish
Weathermaaaaaaan!
Posts: 954
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:39 pm UTC
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

756*

Postby Swordfish » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:34 am UTC

Barry Bonds broke Baseball's record of Home Runs in a career on August 7th, hitting his 756th home run off of Washington National's pitcher Mike Bacsik.

Story.

Now, you may have noticed in that, in the thread title I put an asterisk next to the number, and those of you not in the United States (or those of you who are in the US but have your head under a rock) may not understand why.

There are allegations that Barry Bonds used steroids during his career. Barry Bonds has done nothing significant to dispel these claims other than take the odd jab at Jose Canseco (the man who first claimed that Bonds used steroids).

While it may be wrong to judge a man before he is proven guilty, it's kind of hard not to believe that Bonds used steroids. Near the beginning of his career Bonds weighed 185 pounds. Since then he has gained nearly 40 pounds, and not an ounce of it is fat. In addition to that several private investigations have been done on him, all of which found that he did use steroids, and there is still an investigation about whether or not Bonds lied under oath about taking steroids.

In my book, Hank Aaron is still the Home Run King, and while I know no one in the office of Major League Baseball has the stones to do it, Bond's record should always be accompanied by one of these:

Image

Oh well, at the very least Alex Rodriguez is due to pass whatever record Bonds could set in the next few years.
"If I had a nickel for every time I was wrong, I'd be broke." Stephen Colbert

User avatar
I Zimbra
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:58 am UTC
Location: Mad City, WI

Postby I Zimbra » Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:09 am UTC

Two points:
1)Steroids aside, I don't think meaningful to compare his stats with players from the same era (at least without some Bill James-ish stat jiggering). Compare Barry to players from the past 20-25 years and he's still the most impressive offensive player in baseball.

2)Baseball has had a drug problem since World War II. But no one I know of makes the argument that Hank Aaron played in the "greenie era" and calls Babe Ruth the home run king.

Neither here nor there, but if Lou Gehrig hadn't gotten Himself's disease he probably would hold the HR title.
Take your play seriously

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Postby Azrael » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:43 pm UTC

I Zimbra wrote:Compare Barry to players from the past 20-25 years and he's still the most impressive offensive player in baseball.


Indeed. His excessively poor manners are quite thoroughly documented, discussed and disdained.

User avatar
bbctol
Super Deluxe Forum Title of DESTINYâ„¢
Posts: 3137
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:27 pm UTC
Location: The Twilight Zone
Contact:

Postby bbctol » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:46 pm UTC

I Zimbra wrote:1)Steroids aside, I don't think meaningful to compare his stats with players from the same era (at least without some Bill James-ish stat jiggering). Compare Barry to players from the past 20-25 years and he's still the most offensive player in baseball.


Barry Bonds was a great player before he started using steroids. He's been an asshole, however, all his life.

EDIT: Shouldn't the name of this thread be "756*"? Yes - fixed (it was 765*).

User avatar
I Zimbra
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:58 am UTC
Location: Mad City, WI

Postby I Zimbra » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:56 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:
I Zimbra wrote:Compare Barry to players from the past 20-25 years and he's still the most impressive offensive player in baseball.


Indeed. His excessively poor manners are quite thoroughly documented, discussed and disdained.


We need some kind of Franklin Mint collection of "Great Assholes in Baseball." From Ty Cobb to Joe Dimaggio to Barry Bonds.
Take your play seriously

User avatar
TheTankengine
Our Fora-father
Posts: 3328
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:09 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, KY
Contact:

Postby TheTankengine » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:07 pm UTC

By this reasoning ALL baseball stats should have an asterisk by them, because ALL baseball players MAY have done SOMETHING to give themselves an unfair advantage at SOME point in their careers.

That kind of removes the purpose of an asterisk, doesn't it?

Until he has been PROVEN guilty, you are an asshat for putting an asterisk next to that number.

I'm not saying whether I think he did or not, because it doesn't really matter what I think. But why is it so fucking inconceivable to you that a professional athlete could get bigger, better, faster and stronger the longer he plays with his own hard work?
be centered
be compassionate
be interesting

Rysto
Posts: 1460
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:07 am UTC

Postby Rysto » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:05 am UTC

In his mid 30s? Have you seen pictures of Bonds as a 20-year-old?

Besides, Bonds admitted to the grand jury that he used the cream and the clear -- he just claimed that he thought it was flaxseed oil.

User avatar
Swordfish
Weathermaaaaaaan!
Posts: 954
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:39 pm UTC
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Postby Swordfish » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:19 am UTC

TheTankengine wrote:I'm not saying whether I think he did or not, because it doesn't really matter what I think. But why is it so fucking inconceivable to you that a professional athlete could get bigger, better, faster and stronger the longer he plays with his own hard work?


Swordfish wrote:Near the beginning of his career Bonds weighed 185 pounds. Since then he has gained nearly 40 pounds, and not an ounce of it is fat.


That doesn't happen naturally.

Edit to add:

I won't, however, argue that it's pretty dickish of me to be convinced that he used steroids without it being proven in court first, because it is. But it's just something that seems so obvious to me.
"If I had a nickel for every time I was wrong, I'd be broke." Stephen Colbert

Herman
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 2:46 am UTC

Postby Herman » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:06 am UTC

Hehe. That big asterisk reminded me of the Kurt Vonnegut book where he draws a picture of a rectum. *Gigglegiggle*

User avatar
Pathway
Leon Sumbitches...?
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:59 pm UTC

Postby Pathway » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:25 am UTC

quote
TheTankengine wrote:By this reasoning ALL baseball stats should have an asterisk by them, because ALL baseball players MAY have done SOMETHING to give themselves an unfair advantage at SOME point in their careers.

That kind of removes the purpose of an asterisk, doesn't it?

Until he has been PROVEN guilty, you are an asshat for putting an asterisk next to that number.

I'm not saying whether I think he did or not, because it doesn't really matter what I think. But why is it so fucking inconceivable to you that a professional athlete could get bigger, better, faster and stronger the longer he plays with his own hard work?


It's not 'inconceivable' that he got bigger, better, faster and stronger through hard work. There are, however, many facts that indicate to a skeptical observer that he used steroids and HGH. Beside the bare fact that his gains were disproportionate when he's supposed to have started using, there's a bunch of other evidence. Bonds was in with BALCO and was implicated in the THG bust. Also: this excerpt from Game of Shadows is pretty damning. At least one of the guys who wrote it were indicted for not revealing how they got their hands on grand-jury testimony. That points to its being true.

It's well documented that the drugs all work--and that even your eyesight is helped by HGH. (There's a good firsthand account by a journalist, who did the drugs entirely for research purposes, of how a heavy drug regimen helps. It's somewhere out there. I'll find it later maybe.)

I Zimbra wrote:
Azrael wrote:
I Zimbra wrote:Compare Barry to players from the past 20-25 years and he's still the most impressive offensive player in baseball.


Indeed. His excessively poor manners are quite thoroughly documented, discussed and disdained.


We need some kind of Franklin Mint collection of "Great Assholes in Baseball." From Ty Cobb to Joe Dimaggio to Barry Bonds.


Ooh, imagine the cover of that.

Or, rather, don't.
Last edited by Pathway on Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:53 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
SargeZT wrote:Oh dear no, I love penguins. They're my favorite animal ever besides cows.

The reason I would kill penguins would be, no one ever, ever fucking kills penguins.

Meowsma
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:53 pm UTC

Postby Meowsma » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:02 am UTC

TheTankengine wrote:Until he has been PROVEN guilty, you are an asshat for putting an asterisk next to that number.

I'm not saying whether I think he did or not, because it doesn't really matter what I think. But why is it so fucking inconceivable to you that a professional athlete could get bigger, better, faster and stronger the longer he plays with his own hard work?


Actually, it's quite the opposite. The OP gets to put an asterisk by the number because he's convinced that Bonds is a juicer. MLB doesn't get to put an asterisk there because nothing's been proven in court, and that's why the record will legitimately stand as far as baseball is concerned.

Bonds bulks up that much, doesn't swear up and down that he's not juicing when faced with the allegations, and has his trainer sit in jail indefinitely for refusing to answer questions regarding the juicing? That's all I need to hear to be convinced.

But, also like the OP, the only reason I'm not pitching a fit is because I won't have to wait too long for Alex Rodriguez to break it (much as I hatehatehate the little prick, he's a great hitter, and will do it legitimately).

--Meowsma

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5403
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Postby mosc » Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:33 pm UTC

yay for guilty until proven innocent. Lets let a mob decide what is valid and what is not. Time will tell enough in this case. Breaking the rules means getting caught, not cheating. Cheat all you want as long as you don't get caught.

The pitchers he was facing were probably doing the same as him anyway in those years, if he was doing something. It's not up to the mob and it's not justice to question this record without presenting any evidence other than stating other people have unproven allegations and the guy's a jerk. Ty Cobb was any better? FFS ppl.

When he steps to the plate this season, there's no roids in his body. He's tested constantly now. He's old as hell and he STILL draws more walks than any other batter. His 7 mvps, you think all those years were steroids? I don't buy it. You're looking at by far the most dominant player of his generation, steroids true OR false.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Postby Vaniver » Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:36 pm UTC

Breaking the rules means getting caught, not cheating. Cheat all you want as long as you don't get caught.
"If you're not cheating, you're not trying," eh?
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

Rysto
Posts: 1460
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:07 am UTC

Postby Rysto » Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:38 pm UTC

mosc wrote:yay for guilty until proven innocent. Lets let a mob decide what is valid and what is not.

Bonds has admitted under oath to using steroids.

User avatar
Phenriz
I'm daaancin' like a monkey!
Posts: 2450
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:33 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Phenriz » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:35 pm UTC

good thing most sports are usually boring, or i might care.

(now if this were a case of a hockey player, or a soccer player i would care)
I loveded you piggy, i lovded youuuu!!!

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5403
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Postby mosc » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:40 pm UTC

SI wrote:Delicious irony of the week: While Barry Bonds hasn't failed a steroid test, the fellow who surrendered homer No. 755, Clay Hensley, failed one while in the minors.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:51 pm UTC

My dad's opinion:

Barry Bonds (aka the steroid kid – aka the human drugstore) is 2 home runs away from tying Hammerin’ Hank Aaron’s home run record. Consider these facts:

1) Hank never wore batting gloves, he hit bare handed.

2) Hank received many death threats against him and his family, should he break a white man's Home Run Record. It was 1974, and a different era.

3) Hank never took performance enhancing drugs.

4) Despite all of this, he hit the record breaking 715 home run on Monday, April 8th. 1974. I was on the way to London, Ontario with Bill Ryan, my best man, to marry your mother. We stopped in West Branch, Michigan as we knew that the game in Atlanta was on TV that night. We checked into a motel, and found a bar with a TV, and sat at the bar and watched the game. The record was hit in the 4th inning, and Bill and I let out a cheer. Suddenly we realized that it was dead silent in the bar. We looked around, and all we saw was white guys wearing CAT baseball hats, who were all starring at us. We finished our drinks, went back to our room, put a chair against the door, and went to bed. We left before dawn, and drove to the next town for breakfast.

So whatever Barry (the druggie) does, it will mean nothing to true baseball fans.

Long live Hammerin’ Hank.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:52 pm UTC

CAT?
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Phenriz
I'm daaancin' like a monkey!
Posts: 2450
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:33 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Phenriz » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:53 pm UTC

Belial wrote:CAT?


construction equipment or at least they used to be when i was a kid.
I loveded you piggy, i lovded youuuu!!!

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:53 pm UTC

Phenriz wrote:
Belial wrote:CAT?


construction equipment or at least they used to be when i was a kid.

Big rednecky "you ain't from around here, are ya, boy?" types.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:55 pm UTC

Ahhh
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
ArchangelShrike
Rodan's Title
Posts: 1533
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:39 am UTC
Location: Waikiki

Postby ArchangelShrike » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:20 pm UTC

Thank you for fixing the title, whoever it was.

Other than that, records are broken all the time, expect a few years until the next record.

User avatar
Phenriz
I'm daaancin' like a monkey!
Posts: 2450
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:33 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Phenriz » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:06 pm UTC

ArchangelShrike wrote:Other than that, records are broken all the time, expect a few years until the next record.

while i agree with the idea behind this sentence, it was over 30 years the record was held.

30 years in sports is quite some time, i only home that someone with a clean background (without the use of that "armor" and roids) breaks Bonds's record, sometime relatively soon.
I loveded you piggy, i lovded youuuu!!!

User avatar
solarchem
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 3:57 pm UTC
Location: Northampton, MA
Contact:

Postby solarchem » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:03 am UTC

mosc wrote:
When he steps to the plate this season, there's no roids in his body.


You don't know that. There still is no test for HGH and I'm sure Barry can afford the good shit if he wants it.
There's no question he juiced. Look at his body size, his sudden jump in HR output, his admission to using "flaxseed oil". I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that flaxseed oil wasn't on the Balco menu, so if as Barry said he applied something from Greg Anderson, it was NOT flaxseed.

All of that aside, I'm still not in favor of an asterisk. This is MLB's fault for not having any rules or policing. There is no way to go back now and determine how many home runs are 'extra' because of the roids.

When his body fails him at an early age and he has no friends around him I hope he can look back at the few years he held this record and say it was worth it.
Never tell me the odds - Han Solo

User avatar
Pathway
Leon Sumbitches...?
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:59 pm UTC

Postby Pathway » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:57 am UTC

Nobody is saying that MLB should officially put an asterisk by Bonds' name. That requires even more substantiation than has already been supplied.

But everyone knows.

Belial wrote:CAT?


How are you gentlemen!

(They were CATS.)

You Can't Escape The Large Text Baron Just By Hiding In A Baseball Thread.
SargeZT wrote:Oh dear no, I love penguins. They're my favorite animal ever besides cows.

The reason I would kill penguins would be, no one ever, ever fucking kills penguins.

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5403
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Postby mosc » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:15 pm UTC

solarchem wrote:
mosc wrote:
When he steps to the plate this season, there's no roids in his body.


You don't know that. There still is no test for HGH and I'm sure Barry can afford the good shit if he wants it.
There's no question he juiced. Look at his body size, his sudden jump in HR output, his admission to using "flaxseed oil". I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that flaxseed oil wasn't on the Balco menu, so if as Barry said he applied something from Greg Anderson, it was NOT flaxseed.

All of that aside, I'm still not in favor of an asterisk. This is MLB's fault for not having any rules or policing. There is no way to go back now and determine how many home runs are 'extra' because of the roids.

When his body fails him at an early age and he has no friends around him I hope he can look back at the few years he held this record and say it was worth it.


He hit 46 home runs in 1993 (his first year with SF). He still was 'lookin small' back then. Since 1992 (last year with Pit), his OPS has been >1.000 which except for dipping to .999 in 2006, it's been that way for 15 years. You realize nobody else in the league comes close to 1?

If you want to say his numbers are juicin, than he must have been juicing since nearly the start of his career. Even before 92 he was among the best in baseball. Since then, he's just been miles ahead.

This whole thing is all based on conjecture that 73 was impossible to do for a guy who hit in the 40s most years. It's absurd.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
Pero
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:42 am UTC
Location: Davis, California
Contact:

Postby Pero » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:27 am UTC

mosc wrote:You realize nobody else in the league comes close to 1?


Last year there were eight players with an OPS over 1. There were five in 2005 and nine in 2004.

mosc wrote:If you want to say his numbers are juicin, than he must have been juicing since nearly the start of his career. Even before 92 he was among the best in baseball. Since then, he's just been miles ahead.


No, he wasn't necessarily juicing since the beginning of his career. He was, without steroids, a legitimately great ballplayer. Hitting forty home runs a year doesn't make me suspicious in itself. What does, however, is putting on eighteen pounds and hitting twenty-four more home runs than you ever had before at age thirty-six. I believe that without performance enhancing drugs he'd be at 550-600 home runs right now, and his career would be over. He would not, however, have hit 73 in 2001, and would not have averaged around twenty more home runs per season in the five years after turning thirty-five than he did in his career before that.

mosc wrote:This whole thing is all based on conjecture that 73 was impossible to do for a guy who hit in the 40s most years. It's absurd.


It's not at all based on the leaked grand jury testimony, the BALCO scandal, or the book written on the subject?


Also, for your hyphen moving enjoyment...
Barry Bonds wrote:[They are] wearing me down. Dude, I don't ever sit down. It's a hard-ass job.


And some screen-shotted goodness from the MLB.com stat page:
Image

User avatar
Misanthrope
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:16 pm UTC
Location: United Kingdom

Postby Misanthrope » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:58 am UTC

Perhaps I'm missing something here but Baseball is hardly a very athletic sport. It's pretty similar to cricket (I'm from the UK) and requires little physical stamina compared to football (both the UK and American variants). Why, therefore, would anyone need to take steroids in order to hit a ball with a bat and run a few hundred yards?

User avatar
Pero
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:42 am UTC
Location: Davis, California
Contact:

Postby Pero » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:03 am UTC

The steroids are used to increase strength, not stamina. Being stronger helps one hit the ball farther.

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5403
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Postby mosc » Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:15 pm UTC

sorry about the OPS numbers. Barry's the only one with a 15-year streak though for sure. I doubt even the babe or others had that long a run at >1 (we'll give barry a pass on .999)

I don't think steroids makes as much difference on hitting as it does to pitching, but that's debatable. Like I said, Ironically the guy who tested positive for steroids in his career was on the PITCHING side of HR #755...
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

Rysto
Posts: 1460
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:07 am UTC

Postby Rysto » Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:59 pm UTC

Misanthrope wrote:Perhaps I'm missing something here but Baseball is hardly a very athletic sport. It's pretty similar to cricket (I'm from the UK) and requires little physical stamina compared to football (both the UK and American variants). Why, therefore, would anyone need to take steroids in order to hit a ball with a bat and run a few hundred yards?

The more muscle mass you have, the more power you have in your swing. That means that a ball that would be a long fly out instead travels far enough for a home run.

User avatar
Malice
Posts: 3894
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Postby Malice » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:08 am UTC

Rysto wrote:
Misanthrope wrote:Perhaps I'm missing something here but Baseball is hardly a very athletic sport. It's pretty similar to cricket (I'm from the UK) and requires little physical stamina compared to football (both the UK and American variants). Why, therefore, would anyone need to take steroids in order to hit a ball with a bat and run a few hundred yards?

The more muscle mass you have, the more power you have in your swing. That means that a ball that would be a long fly out instead travels far enough for a home run.


If that's true, then you could get a lot of evidence pretty easily. You just need to compare a few pieces of information:

1. The number of home runs Bonds hit on average in a year when he probably wasn't on steroids.
2. The number of hits which would have been home runs but which simply didn't go far enough, for the same time-frame.
3. The number of home runs hit during the hypothesized steroid time.
4. The number of hits which would have been home runs but which didn't go far enough, for the same time-frame.

If Bonds is getting more home runs specifically because hits that would have fallen short are now going all the way out, this would point pretty well towards the steriod idea.

Rysto
Posts: 1460
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:07 am UTC

Postby Rysto » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:10 am UTC

Actually, I saw an ESPN writer do a similar analysis some time last season. I don't remember any details about it, though.

User avatar
Pero
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:42 am UTC
Location: Davis, California
Contact:

Postby Pero » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:33 am UTC

I don't think anyone is saying that Barry Bonds would not have been a good player without steroids (and if they are, well, they're wrong and don't know baseball).

The thing that is suspicious to me is that while he may have been the best player in baseball in the '90s (I'd say it's between him and Griffey) he suddenly got better at 36. Most people's abilities start to decline in their late thirties; Bonds started playing better baseball than he ever had. Not only that, he started playing better baseball than anyone ever had. People don't d that. You don't suddenly, at 36, turn from a great ballplayer to the best player ever. And that's what he did.

We're saying that he took steroids, and you're coming back with "He was good when he was skinny." Which is true, but not particularly relevant. He suddenly any without any (legitimate) explanation became significantly better at an age where almost everyone experiences a drop off.

EDIT: Yay for people getting three posts in before I submit mine? Anyway, the above was directed towards mosc.

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5403
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Postby mosc » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:28 pm UTC

Pero, what about the point that odds are good that he was facing pitchers who were juicing as well? Why only call out Barry for being a product of his generation? Also, don't you agree steroids make more of a help for pitchers than hitters?

And Barry hit 46HRs at age 29 (and if you think hall of fame hitters are better at 25 than 30 I'll laugh)... Only 1 year did he break 50. You're calling him out so brutally on 1 friggin year. I just want to point that out.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
Phenriz
I'm daaancin' like a monkey!
Posts: 2450
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:33 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby Phenriz » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:22 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Pero, what about the point that odds are good that he was facing pitchers who were juicing as well? Why only call out Barry for being a product of his generation? Also, don't you agree steroids make more of a help for pitchers than hitters?


Why is Barry Bonds unaccountable for his own actions? Does he not have a brain, can he not make his own decisions? Apparently because everyone else is doing something wrong and illegal, it absolves me of the blame?

hot damn, time to go hit up some banks.....

What pitchers have bulked up and broken records through 'roid use (or suspected thereof), can you name any?

Also I distinctly remember McGuire and Sosa being under heat for suspected 'roid use. So if Bonds honestly didn't know it was a "big deal" he doesn't have any excuse, as that shit was all over the news. He could have quit then, or decided not to take them at all.
I loveded you piggy, i lovded youuuu!!!

LoonRadio
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:36 pm UTC
Location: Erewhon
Contact:

Postby LoonRadio » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:31 pm UTC

I for one, do NOT agree that pitchers gain as much from juicing as batters, mainly because pitchers require control and strategy rather than strength. Even pure power pitchers like Ryan or Clemens never used steroids.

Furthermore, Bonds went to San Francisco in 1993, when they still played in Candlestick Park. The right field fence (his normal target) was 330 feet away. When the new stadium was built in 2000, right field was shortened to 307 feet, on the same principle as Yankee Stadium. The park was built to suit Bonds' hitting style.

I think Bonds cheated, and I think he is a poor representative of a game I love. However, I don't think "he juiced" is the whole story.
You know what's worse than raining cats and dogs?
Hailing taxicabs.

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5403
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Postby mosc » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:17 pm UTC

Phenriz wrote:Why is Barry Bonds unaccountable for his own actions? Does he not have a brain, can he not make his own decisions? Apparently because everyone else is doing something wrong and illegal, it absolves me of the blame?


So we should put as asterisk next to Hrs from the spit ball era? One next to errors to indicate that the gloves used to inferior? How about an asterisk for home runs hit in parks with fences less than 330 feet away? Should the Babe's record get one because he only faced white pitchers? Where do the asterisks stop?

Steroids existed in that era of baseball. Not just in bonds, nor just in hitters. There are rules in baseball and there are punishments for the rules. Barry followed the rules and when he didn't, he accepted reasonable punishments. It's your prerogative to look back and see things you like or don't like about him as an individual, but I don't find his individual accomplishments jaded more than others before him.
Last edited by mosc on Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

altie
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:54 am UTC

Postby altie » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:02 am UTC

How long did it take him to go from 185 to 225? That's a completely reasonable gain. Pro bodybuilders fluctuate a lot more than that over 6 months. OK, they're steroid test bunnies, but the point stands.

I went from 140 to 165 over 6 months because I wanted to, and because I had a desk job where I could keep a stock of peanuts, whey protein and hard boiled eggs at arm's length. It was mostly muscle because I had time to go to they gym regularly. I am not genetically gifted like one would have to be to be a top MLB player.

User avatar
Pathway
Leon Sumbitches...?
Posts: 647
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:59 pm UTC

Postby Pathway » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:38 am UTC

altie wrote:OK, they're steroid test bunnies, but the point stands.


[citation needed]
SargeZT wrote:Oh dear no, I love penguins. They're my favorite animal ever besides cows.

The reason I would kill penguins would be, no one ever, ever fucking kills penguins.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests