Syria Civil War Spreads

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morriswalters
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby morriswalters » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:41 am UTC

The US war of independence was of a different time. Much simpler in a geopolitical sense. In our drive to bring democracy to the Arab world through nation building we have killed more Arabs than Assad has. Polls show that the Arab don't want us to intervene. In a pure sense this is about containing Iran. One branch of Islam against another. Why should we intervene in a disagreement that is older than the US? In the meantime people have grown tired of the US being the Sheriff of the Western world. They complain about US spying, but it is this frantic drive to control the world that drives it. I for one am tired of it. If Europe wants to lead, then let them. Better yet let the Arab states fix this.

BattleMoose
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby BattleMoose » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:51 am UTC

morriswalters wrote: In our drive to bring democracy to the Arab world through nation building we have killed more Arabs than Assad has.


Democracy should never be forced on any people. If they want their own form of government, that is their prerogative. But if a people are trying to overthrow an oppressive regime, I cannot think of an example were they would be unappreciative of any help they would receive.

Polls show that the Arab don't want us to intervene.


I don't care what the general Arab world thinks about Syria. I care about what the people of Syria think about Syria.

Why should we intervene in a disagreement that is older than the US?


Syria is a much younger country than the USA.

In the meantime people have grown tired of the US being the Sheriff of the Western world.


This isn't about trying to be a sherrif. France wasn't playing at being a sherrif when it helped the USA fight England. Sure they had their selfish motives but the world was a better place after the war. As was in Libya and as would be in Syria with international intervention.

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Zamfir
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Zamfir » Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:13 am UTC

The US war of independence was of a different time. Much simpler in a geopolitical sense

I doubt that. The French-British wars and peaces of the late 18th century were as complex as it gets in geopolitical terms. with lots of Cold War- style proxy wars all over the world, the American war of independence just one of them. Then the runup and aftermath of the French revolution... If that's simple, what's complex?

morriswalters
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby morriswalters » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:11 am UTC

Add high speed transportation, high speed communications and multiple wealth centers with enough power to end all human life on this planet, in addition to 7 billion people with no frontiers for immigration. But you aren't talking about proxy wars here. You are talking about direct intervention by our Military. Bluntly, their is no upside for us. And just as bluntly, if there isn't why should I care? If we really believed we had a moral obligation to act we would have acted some time ago. The same could be said about Europe, or the Middle Eastern states. They only happy campers in this mess is international arms dealers.

BattleMoose wrote:Syria is a much younger country than the USA.
This conflicts roots predates the Protestant Reformation which split the Catholic church.
The historic background of the Sunni–Shia split lies in the schism that occurred when the Islamic prophet Muhammad died in the year 632
Look at the players on both sides.

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Telchar
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Telchar » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:58 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:18 pm UTC

Here's a nice article that tries to explain the various reactions of Middle Eastern countries to the Syria crisis.

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iChef
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby iChef » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:19 pm UTC

I am very torn about what the US should do in Syria and would really appreciate some input from forumites from other countries. I myself live in the US and I really don't like my tax dollar going to bomb other countries and don't want my military (many of which I live near and see everyday including my highschool locker partner who was killed in Iraq a few years after we graduated). On the other hand I work with a woman from Bosnia who lived through the civil war there and she credits Bill Clinton and the American and UN troops with saving her life from the Serbian forces that would give everyone on a block a 24 hour notice to leave and then come down the street and kill anyone who wasn't gone. And from other things she describes the ones who gave warnings were the nicer ones. It seems like each intervention needs to be carefully considered. I am leaning toward at least airstrike because we have given the Syrians quite a bit of time to sort it out themselves and it is causing a massive humanitarian crisis in the surrounding countries. Of course there are no easy answers... so what does the rest of the world think?
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CorruptUser
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:50 pm UTC

Don't get involved. The main options are backing the tyrant who wants to exert complete control over every aspect of his subjects' lives, and backing the rebels who intend to install a theocracy to exert complete control over every aspect of their subjects' lives.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:09 am UTC

What is possible for Americans to think?
Not as much as the TV and other Mass Media tells us we can.

It is not a matter of turning a blind eye to the suffering of other human beings.
Americans are not qualified to make big sweeping decisions for other people.
We are good at making decisions for our own people.

Yes. We must still have some bombs and a way to deliver those bombs.
No. It is not the highest and best use of resources.

I have very little regard for our elected representatives.
The men and women that have won seats of power have not shown competence.
Yes. That is a funny floor show, sometimes. The stupidity is funny.

It is not a funny floor show when the lives of others hang in the balance.
It international communities must Step Up into leadership positions.

Jackasses on this side of the pond must let them.
There is no shame in falling back and doing the right thing.

Even if you yourself are not capable of thinking of that correct action all by your own independent, undisciplined self.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:27 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Don't get involved. The main options are backing the tyrant who wants to exert complete control over every aspect of his subjects' lives, and backing the rebels who intend to install a theocracy to exert complete control over every aspect of their subjects' lives.


While any attack against Assad would help out the rebels, a few cruise missiles will be enough to send a message about the Chemical Weapons. I agree with your basic idea, both sides of the war are not in US Interests. But... sending a message about Chemical Weapons is a good thing IMO. Do we like the Rebels? No. Indeed, one primary component of the Rebels is the group "Al-Qaeda in Iraq". (yes, the ones that were terrorizing Iraq during our occupation). But we happen to agree with them on one point: Chemical Weapons are a bad thing, and should not be used.

Part of the challenge of the message is that it will have to be done in such a way that we don't condone Al Qaeda or give them a real tactical advantage... while simultaneously hurting Assad enough to deter future use of Chemical Weapons.
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Diadem
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Diadem » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:06 pm UTC

I'm entirely in favor of sending a message that the use of chemical weapons shall not be tolerated.

But who should we send the message to? It seems far from certain that Assad's regime is actually behind this attack.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
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Negated
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Negated » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:38 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Don't get involved. The main options are backing the tyrant who wants to exert complete control over every aspect of his subjects' lives, and backing the rebels who intend to install a theocracy to exert complete control over every aspect of their subjects' lives.


While any attack against Assad would help out the rebels, a few cruise missiles will be enough to send a message about the Chemical Weapons. I agree with your basic idea, both sides of the war are not in US Interests. But... sending a message about Chemical Weapons is a good thing IMO. Do we like the Rebels? No. Indeed, one primary component of the Rebels is the group "Al-Qaeda in Iraq". (yes, the ones that were terrorizing Iraq during our occupation). But we happen to agree with them on one point: Chemical Weapons are a bad thing, and should not be used.

Part of the challenge of the message is that it will have to be done in such a way that we don't condone Al Qaeda or give them a real tactical advantage... while simultaneously hurting Assad enough to deter future use of Chemical Weapons.

If only it is so simple...

Let's say the navy fires the tomahawks at known chemical weapon storages. What happens then? The facilities are destroyed. But there is no guarantee that the chemical weapons are also destroyed. The rebels, some of whom are Sunni extremists with links to al-Qaeda, may get their hands on them in the chaos. The US may not know the location of some chemical weapon storages, and if Assad's forces continue to use them after the strikes, it will become a humiliation to the US for not able to meet even the basic objective.

In short, a half-hearted strike achieves nothing. Assad will still be in power. The rebels will still be fighting a bloody war. The extremists will still gain greater influence in the rebellion. And the US will remain on the sideline, watch the continuation of this bloody war with no end in sight, and be satisfied that it has "punished" Assad's regime for using chemical weapons.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby gnutrino » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:02 pm UTC

Negated wrote:Let's say the navy fires the tomahawks at known chemical weapon storages. What happens then? The facilities are destroyed. But there is no guarantee that the chemical weapons are also destroyed. The rebels, some of whom are Sunni extremists with links to al-Qaeda, may get their hands on them in the chaos. The US may not know the location of some chemical weapon storages, and if Assad's forces continue to use them after the strikes, it will become a humiliation to the US for not able to meet even the basic objective.


My understanding is that no one is talking about targeting the chemical weapons themselves, that would just end up releasing the gases and spreading it where ever the wind might take which could be disastrous (I believe there are ways of destroying them if you can get the temperature of the explosion high enough but it's... non-trivial and not something you really want to risk if you don't have to). Instead the targets would be the launchers, artillery pieces and aircraft that would be used to deliver the weapons. And even then this would mostly be by way of punishment and to "send a message" rather than an actual attempt to totally disable Assad's Chemical weapons capability.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:20 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm entirely in favor of sending a message that the use of chemical weapons shall not be tolerated.

But who should we send the message to? It seems far from certain that Assad's regime is actually behind this attack.


It seems quite likely that Assad's military was behind it. He, personally, may not be...the order may have come from further down the chain. Where? Im sure everyone will seek to avoid blame, and military comms are unlikely to be turned over that conclusively prove the matter.

However, military matters do not normally require such proof. War ain't a court of law. Regardless of who ordered it, literally the entire armed forces are fair game for retaliation in my eyes, and it's on them to keep control of their military. Forget targeting the chem weapons, too. Even assuming you get every last one, it doesn't set up the disincentive you need.

Imagine a future Assad, if you will. Someone in a civil war, with chem and conventional weapons. You can fight with conventional weapons and be relatively assured of no intervention, or you can use chem weapons and
A. you then get your chem weapons bombed(so, lose the thing you weren't using otherwise anyway)
or
B. Lose some of your conventional weapons.

It's not really about the rebels, it's about skewing future decision making people to not use chem weapons. And that probably means killing Assad's people and breaking his things.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:21 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:But who should we send the message to? It seems far from certain that Assad's regime is actually behind this attack.

Really? The BBC's reporting on this indicates that it's uncertain exactly who gave the order but it is certain that it was someone in the regime. It may have been Assad, or Assad's brother, or one of Assad's generals, but in any case, it was someone in Assad's regime.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby morriswalters » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:15 pm UTC

What does it matter? Either the United States is the big cheese and nobody else should bother to have an opinion, or everybody ought to be involved in the decision. As a citizen of the US I don't want the first to be true, and the phrase chicken scat comes into mind for the second. Where is the outrage? It isn't in the centers of power, or have I missed the clamor of the UN laying down the law. Has anyone in the Euro zone sent any ships? Anyone in South America? Turkey may get involved. Maybe France, although I haven't heard about any assets. If everybody was at least showing their flags, you would need a traffic cop in the Med to reduce accidents.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:22 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:What does it matter? Either the United States is the big cheese and nobody else should bother to have an opinion, or everybody ought to be involved in the decision. As a citizen of the US I don't want the first to be true, and the phrase chicken scat comes into mind for the second. Where is the outrage? It isn't in the centers of power, or have I missed the clamor of the UN laying down the law. Has anyone in the Euro zone sent any ships? Anyone in South America? Turkey may get involved. Maybe France, although I haven't heard about any assets. If everybody was at least showing their flags, you would need a traffic cop in the Med to reduce accidents.


Everyone is, per the UN. However, the UN security council was never designed to be fair for all. That's why you've got permanent members. Russia being one of them...welp, the UN security council is pretty worthless on this. The best they can do without them is demand to get investigators in and send strongly worded letters. They've done that.

And yeah, even when the rest of the world backs us, the US *always* ends up being the vast majority of the fighting force. Fair? No, probably not. Most of them are quiet satisfied to rely on words. Cheap, cheap words that do nothing in practice.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby sigsfried » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:40 pm UTC

The reality is no country could act without US backing, Even going back to the 60s when the balance of power was not so concentrated in America, you still have Suez, where combined British, French and Israeli forces a re forced into a humiliating backing down simply from US disapproval. Since then the political reality is that the West cannot act without at least American ambivalence. Once you have that standard it becomes inevitable that America is looked to take the lead on most actions (something further worsened by America having a number of bad experiences of American soldiers under some level of foreign command). Ultimately the price America pays for being the world's only super power is that it has to take the lead role in virtually every action, or else it looks like it is losing some of that power.

morriswalters
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby morriswalters » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:22 am UTC

I understand the rationale, what I don't like is the cost. This NSA fiasco is a direct result of this mindset. To lead and be successful doing it, we have had to accept things that slowly are destroying us as a nation, IMO.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:30 am UTC

Or we could actually act like the empire we are always accused of being, forcing lesser nations to give 20% of their GDP in tribute. Not that this is really a good option long term.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby PolakoVoador » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:54 pm UTC

I guess this sums everything up pretty well:

Image

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Wnderer
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Wnderer » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:59 pm UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:I guess this sums everything up pretty well:


Not really. We don't have any problems smashing the hives. It's when we try to scoop up the bees and build them a nice new democratic hive that they start stinging us.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby yedidyak » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:04 pm UTC

May be worth pointing out that the cartoon is from the Economist, a paper very very openly calling for an American led intervention.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:12 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm entirely in favor of sending a message that the use of chemical weapons shall not be tolerated.

But who should we send the message to? It seems far from certain that Assad's regime is actually behind this attack.

Who do we send the message to, for real*? I clearly recall Syrian rebels being caught using chemical weapons last year or earlier this year, but I cannot find any results for this on google.

*besides nobody

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:14 pm UTC

I hadn't heard anything definitive, but I recall an episode where both sides accused the other, and Assad wouldn't let inspectors in.

Clear as mud, I know, but that's true of much of the situation over there.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby yedidyak » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:06 pm UTC

Syria has apparently 'welcomed' a Russian proposal to avoid a strike by putting all of their chemical weapons under international control, to be removed and destroyed.

I'm skeptical but hopeful. This could be the perfect solution for everyone. Russia looks like peacemakers. Obama can say it was US pressure that did it. Assad doesn't get attacked (especially good for him if it was a rogue part of his regime that did it, it puts them back in their place), the rebels don't get gassed. And the al-Qaeda style rebels don't get hold of it whenever Assad falls. Win-win-win.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:13 pm UTC

The danger here is that Assad will simply hand over 10% of his stockpile and say "That's all we got!" Then Obama will have to decide between calling it good enough even though our intelligence says he's holding out, or striking under even more ambiguous conditions.

I guess calling off a strike under those conditions could still be spun as a win for Obama, and let him back out without backing down.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Thesh » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:16 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:Syria has apparently 'welcomed' a Russian proposal to avoid a strike by putting all of their chemical weapons under international control, to be removed and destroyed.

I'm skeptical but hopeful. This could be the perfect solution for everyone. Russia looks like peacemakers. Obama can say it was US pressure that did it. Assad doesn't get attacked (especially good for him if it was a rogue part of his regime that did it, it puts them back in their place), the rebels don't get gassed. And the al-Qaeda style rebels don't get hold of it whenever Assad falls. Win-win-win.


As long as the weapons don't get used anymore, and don't get into the hands of the rebels, I agree it's the best solution. Military intervention will have difficulty obtaining desirable results.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby sociotard » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:52 pm UTC

If it works (US bombs don't drop and a bunch of chemical weapons get turned over), I think I'll start a petition for Obama to hand his Nobel Peace Prize over to Putin.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:35 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:Syria has apparently 'welcomed' a Russian proposal to avoid a strike by putting all of their chemical weapons under international control, to be removed and destroyed.

I'm skeptical but hopeful. This could be the perfect solution for everyone. Russia looks like peacemakers. Obama can say it was US pressure that did it. Assad doesn't get attacked (especially good for him if it was a rogue part of his regime that did it, it puts them back in their place), the rebels don't get gassed. And the al-Qaeda style rebels don't get hold of it whenever Assad falls. Win-win-win.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... 291?page=2
A link?
Such a good idea.
The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!

What is up with the French? Were they miss quoted?
Punishment? No threats of Punishment, please.

Russian and French Scientists and other Smarty Pants in Syria is a Good Idea.
Sooth frayed nerves. With What?

Some good food and some inspections.
It is not that big a deal.

I don't know anything about what is going on in Syria.
The Russians and the French have Knowledge few if any Americans have.

They know how to Not say more letters than we have.
Have you ever tried to read Russian? It is like Greek! It's hard!

Another day of inspections. Those guys get to go anywhere they want to go.
Poor them. They have an uncomfortable Uniform.

Gas Masks. yuck. Poor Them.
ok. I feel bad about it.

What if we find out the US was involved?
It makes me feel ill.

The idea that agents of my nation may be The Bad Guys.
It makes me feel ill.

If there is any doubt at all;
Agents of My Nation are to Sit The Fuck Down.
Then Do As Told To Do by Grown Ups.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:05 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:Syria has apparently 'welcomed' a Russian proposal to avoid a strike by putting all of their chemical weapons under international control, to be removed and destroyed.

I'm skeptical but hopeful. This could be the perfect solution for everyone. Russia looks like peacemakers. Obama can say it was US pressure that did it. Assad doesn't get attacked (especially good for him if it was a rogue part of his regime that did it, it puts them back in their place), the rebels don't get gassed. And the al-Qaeda style rebels don't get hold of it whenever Assad falls. Win-win-win.


I heard that Kerry sort of started this on accident(then tried to walk it back). I agree that I would consider this a great outcome if everyone plays fair...but I am doubtful that they will do so. Russia is on Syria's side here, so Syria can definitely lie to at least some degree about what they have, and if Russia says, "yup, that looks right", what do we do then? At that point, a strike makes us look like giant assholes.

Hopefully we'll get something akin to impartial observers to monitor the whole ball of wax.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:55 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
yedidyak wrote:Syria has apparently 'welcomed' a Russian proposal to avoid a strike by putting all of their chemical weapons under international control, to be removed and destroyed.

I'm skeptical but hopeful. This could be the perfect solution for everyone. Russia looks like peacemakers. Obama can say it was US pressure that did it. Assad doesn't get attacked (especially good for him if it was a rogue part of his regime that did it, it puts them back in their place), the rebels don't get gassed. And the al-Qaeda style rebels don't get hold of it whenever Assad falls. Win-win-win.


I heard that Kerry sort of started this on accident(then tried to walk it back). I agree that I would consider this a great outcome if everyone plays fair...but I am doubtful that they will do so. Russia is on Syria's side here, so Syria can definitely lie to at least some degree about what they have, and if Russia says, "yup, that looks right", what do we do then? At that point, a strike makes us look like giant assholes.

Hopefully we'll get something akin to impartial observers to monitor the whole ball of wax.

if Russia is on Syria's side then that makes the Russians even a Better Choice.
The Russians may have both the expertise and the trust of The People.

PeacMakers. Not 1950's cruising missiles; But Honorable Men and Woman in service to a master far away.
The master? World Peace.

It is a simple idea. The World at Peace is not a boring place.
There are always horrible things to be Outraged about.

Water will still be heavy and cold.
Gravity should know better, but it doesn't.

The French and the Russians can Work Together.
I know they can. I am not sure how I know, but I know.

In my sweet imagination The Bad Guys sit this one out.
So much work to be done in Syria.

Can the French afford to Fix The Middle East?
The US Broke it. Send them the Bill.

What is another Trillion? Do you know How Big That Number Is!?
It is not that big a deal.
If Every Single Person on this Whole Planet lifts the Russians and the French up and Watches every move they make.

Have you ever seen those guys?
I did. I saw some.

No. I did not see them all. It is almost as hard to see all Russian Personal as it is to see all Asians.
The French are a smaller number of persons and it would be difficult to get them all in one room.

Tynemyr;
You seem to have a pessimistic view of The Relationship between The People of Russia and The People of Syria.
Pessimists are often correct. I would like to consider The Fairy Tail.

Peace Breaks out in Syria.
There is Grieving to be done.

The Russians stand Guard over The Dead.
In respect for what they can not understand,
Beautiful Blonde Strangers silently stand guard.

No Whopping it up for a While.
That is correct. Correct?

The inspections are not really any of your business.
Not mine, either.

The Russians and The French are able to do The Job; If anyone can.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:03 am UTC

addams wrote:if Russia is on Syria's side then that makes the Russians even a Better Choice.
The Russians may have both the expertise and the trust of The People.


Not really. You don't trust the fox to assure you that everything is now safe for the chickens.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:29 am UTC

Accident or not, its a good idea. The world leaders need to work together to make it happen. Now that Obama is offering support on the issue, it created a peaceful path for all parties involved.
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sardia
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby sardia » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:06 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Accident or not, its a good idea. The world leaders need to work together to make it happen. Now that Obama is offering support on the issue, it created a peaceful path for all parties involved.

Right, all parties involved. Except the Syrians. Not that it's a bad idea, but it offers an out to Obama and Assad, nothing more.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:34 am UTC

sardia wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Accident or not, its a good idea. The world leaders need to work together to make it happen. Now that Obama is offering support on the issue, it created a peaceful path for all parties involved.

Right, all parties involved. Except the Syrians. Not that it's a bad idea, but it offers an out to Obama and Assad, nothing more.

In Politics the Game of Got Ya' is the most important Game.

Maybe, this is not a Game of Politics as usual.
Maybe, this can be a game of:
"Your Grief is so great. We want to help."

Obama and Assad are unimportant.
The men and women on the ground are important.

I know Remote Prayer does not work.
It does not hurt, either.

Pray for the men and women that will be doing The Job.
It seems so Romantic to me. The French and The Russians!

How Romantic! Let them lead! They will let the EU guys watch. right?
We will need someone to keep records for the people of the Future;
If there is a future.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

KnightExemplar
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:44 am UTC

sardia wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Accident or not, its a good idea. The world leaders need to work together to make it happen. Now that Obama is offering support on the issue, it created a peaceful path for all parties involved.

Right, all parties involved. Except the Syrians. Not that it's a bad idea, but it offers an out to Obama and Assad, nothing more.


Syrians don't get bombed with Chemical Weapons anymore. I'd say thats a win for them.

Beyond that, I don't know if actually supporting one side over the other is beneficial to anyone, even Syrians.
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:25 am UTC

sardia wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Accident or not, its a good idea. The world leaders need to work together to make it happen. Now that Obama is offering support on the issue, it created a peaceful path for all parties involved.

Right, all parties involved. Except the Syrians. Not that it's a bad idea, but it offers an out to Obama and Assad, nothing more.

The military intervention we would have done would have helped nobody, not even the Syrian rebels, whether bombs only or more.

Seriously, bombs are not the answer to everything. The most extensive intervention acceptable (beyond them turning over all chemical weapons) would have been to somehow distribute NAAKs to everybody we could in Syria. Actually, if this chemical weapon transfer is done 100% (lol), it would be even better.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:57 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
sardia wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Accident or not, its a good idea. The world leaders need to work together to make it happen. Now that Obama is offering support on the issue, it created a peaceful path for all parties involved.

Right, all parties involved. Except the Syrians. Not that it's a bad idea, but it offers an out to Obama and Assad, nothing more.

The military intervention we would have done would have helped nobody, not even the Syrian rebels, whether bombs only or more.

Seriously, bombs are not the answer to everything. The most extensive intervention acceptable (beyond them turning over all chemical weapons) would have been to somehow distribute NAAKs to everybody we could in Syria. Actually, if this chemical weapon transfer is done 100% (lol), it would be even better.


Logistically, that's not realistic. At least, not without an approach of "kill all the aircraft, missile sights, then start air dropping ala Berlin". Plus, even if you did get 100% distribution, you now have a bunch of untrained people with these kits. Some will use them wrong. Some will lose them. Some will trade them for food or whatever else they desperately need. Some won't carry them with them at all times. There's no alert system to tell them when to use them. They have no masks to limit exposure. And of course, they're useless against non-nerve agent CWs.

To put proper use in perspective, in the mil, after alert, step 1 was always a mask to limit exposure. You had six seconds from alert to go from mask in sealed bag to mask on, fully adjusted with a seal, empty sealed bag(because otherwise your mask bag gets contaminated, which will contaminate the inside of your mask when you put it away). Then you use injectors on anyone with symptoms. It is assumed that those with symptoms will be incapacitated, and unable to inject themselves. Thus, you use their kit to inject them, requiring everyone to carry it in a standard place.

Atropine functions by rapidly increasing your body functions, slamming the dose through you as rapidly as possible. It does NOT prevent damage, it just limits exposure time. Well, if you're wearing a mask. If not, it makes you suck down air(and more nerve agents), killing you faster. This policy would kill a shitload of people.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Vahir » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:45 am UTC

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-15/s ... al/4959286

Syria agrees to disarm its chemical arsenal. For once, everyone's happy about the deal (Except the rebels).


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