Syria Civil War Spreads

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Tyndmyr
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:18 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-15/syria-hails-us-russia-deal/4959286

Syria agrees to disarm its chemical arsenal. For once, everyone's happy about the deal (Except the rebels).


I don't think the rebels would really be satisfied unless the US rolled in to help them win the war. That's pretty unrealistic, though.

cphite
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby cphite » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:36 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Accident or not, its a good idea. The world leaders need to work together to make it happen. Now that Obama is offering support on the issue, it created a peaceful path for all parties involved.


It created a political escape route for some parties involved.

Obama doesn't have to follow through with his threat of force; something he had far less support for than he imagined, and which would have had little to no effect whatsoever. Putin got to save his ally Assad and embarrass Obama at the same time. Assad gets off free and clear for the most part, aside from having to "disarm" under the watchful eye of his ally.

The rebels and the Syrian civilians don't get much out of this deal, but it was never about them in the first place.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:21 pm UTC

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/syria-c ... l-20266143
fricken politics.

The Talking Heads are like a easily replaceable Royalty?
They seem so snotty. That is Their Job!

They are Actors! They don't Write the news, they report it.
Per Orders! What is That job like? Great? It would have to be.

Very elete. Eletes..... Think about The Elete. How great is that?
Innocent as children. Up at the crack of dawn. Done before 10:am.

Those guys always look so Chipper. What an amazing advertisement!
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/syria-c ... l-20266143
What is it selling?

John McCain? "We are depending upon the good will of The Russian People."
He has a problem with that?

"Have you met The Americans, Sir?" Mr. McCain.

Dear Mr. McCain; War Hero? POW? POW. Five Years?
Is he still alive? Who? The man the Americans took from Home and transported to a Prison Camp?
That was a long time, ago. If is body is alive, he will not be the same man he was in 2002.

Mr. McCain; Are you the same man you were when you were 25?
Did you dream of Home? Did you ever? Do you think the men inside the US prison camps dream of Home?

Syria? We must trust the Good Will of The Russian People? Honey; It has been a long time sense they swept the streets of a Nation far away and took The Bad Guys home to Prison. They did. After the ugliness that is so lovingly called WWII, The Russians took a bunch. They found their way through a Mountain of Red Tape.

One POW to another POW.
The Good Will Of The People of Russia is Good Enough For Me!
Addams
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Wnderer
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Wnderer » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:10 pm UTC

The UN released its report.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/7 ... gation.pdf

Note by the Secretary-General
1.In transmitting simultaneously to the Security Council and the General Assembly the
report on the incident which took place on 21 August 2013 in the Ghouta area of
Damascus (see annex), the Secretary-General expresses his profound shock and regret at
the conclusion that chemical weapons were used on a relatively large scale, resulting in
numerous casualties, particularly among civilians and including many children. The
Secretary-General condemns in the strongest possible terms the use of chemical weapons
and believes that this act is a war crime and grave violation of the 1925 Protocol for the
Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of
Bacteriological Methods of Warfare and other relevant rules of customary international
law. The international community has a moral responsibility to hold accountable those
responsible and for ensuring that chemical weapons can never re-emerge as an instrument
of warfare.

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sardia
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby sardia » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:01 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm entirely in favor of sending a message that the use of chemical weapons shall not be tolerated.

But who should we send the message to? It seems far from certain that Assad's regime is actually behind this attack.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/world ... world&_r=0
I'm surprised you even said that. What makes you so uncertain?

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Chen » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:09 pm UTC

[quote="sardia"http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/world/middleeast/un-data-on-gas-attack-points-to-assads-top-forces.html?ref=world&_r=0
I'm surprised you even said that. What makes you so uncertain?[/quote]

I would imagine the fact that he posted that before the report was released and no one knew for certain who had gassed whom? Except of course the US saying it was "certain" it was Assad based on their own secret intel.

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learsfool
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:47 am UTC

So has anybody asked the actual citizens what they want?

Because for . . what . . a couple of billion dollars, we could do a lot for them.

We could buy land in a number of different countries that are far away from others and give them enough resources to support a million or so easily enough using sustainable farming techniques.

Several times that if we help them invest in hydroponics or aquaponics.

And if we wrap a corporation around them and make 'not hurting anybody' their job, and offer it up individually, then those who are willing to give it a go get that chance at an actual improvement, right?

I mean, seriously. . 'Box of Explosions' should never have been on the table. Who wants that?

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:17 am UTC

learsfool wrote:So has anybody asked the actual citizens what they want?

Because for . . what . . a couple of billion dollars, we could do a lot for them.

We could buy land in a number of different countries that are far away from others and give them enough resources to support a million or so easily enough using sustainable farming techniques.

Several times that if we help them invest in hydroponics or aquaponics.

And if we wrap a corporation around them and make 'not hurting anybody' their job, and offer it up individually, then those who are willing to give it a go get that chance at an actual improvement, right?

I mean, seriously. . 'Box of Explosions' should never have been on the table. Who wants that?

Someone wants that.
Not you. Not me. Not the people that are grieving and living in Fear of what the US might do or not do.

Let us hope and pray, grown ups step up.
Your idea is a good one. It might work.
I have no idea how.

I recently read an essay about Home.
People want to be at Home. Home is so important to people.

The article I read addressed the issue of pollution.
There have been people that chose to live in potentially hazardous areas, because it was Home.

Homesickness is a real thing. People love Home; Even when Home sucks in lots of ways.
It is a reasonable guess, people will stay Home if it is at all possible.

At the same time we are a Species with a bad case of Wanderlust.
Someone can do the Math. 20% is a good guess.
20% are going to want to know what is on the other side of the hill and around the bend in the road.

Very few will want to walk away and never look back. People! Charming, Disarming and Nuts!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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learsfool
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:36 am UTC

addams wrote:
Spoiler:
So has anybody asked the actual citizens what they want?

Because for . . what . . a couple of billion dollars, we could do a lot for them.

We could buy land in a number of different countries that are far away from others and give them enough resources to support a million or so easily enough using sustainable farming techniques.

Several times that if we help them invest in hydroponics or aquaponics.

And if we wrap a corporation around them and make 'not hurting anybody' their job, and offer it up individually, then those who are willing to give it a go get that chance at an actual improvement, right?

I mean, seriously. . 'Box of Explosions' should never have been on the table. Who wants that?

Someone wants that.
Not you. Not me. Not the people that are grieving and living in Fear of what the US might do or not do.

Let us hope and pray, grown ups step up.
Your idea is a good one. It might work.
I have no idea how.

I recently read an essay about Home.
People want to be at Home. Home is so important to people.

The article I read addressed the issue of pollution.
There have been people that chose to live in potentially hazardous areas, because it was Home.

Homesickness is a real thing. People love Home; Even when Home sucks in lots of ways.
It is a reasonable guess, people will stay Home if it is at all possible.

At the same time we are a Species with a bad case of Wanderlust.
Someone can do the Math. 20% is a good guess.
20% are going to want to know what is on the other side of the hill and around the bend in the road.

Very few will want to walk away and never look back. People! Charming, Disarming and Nuts!


Ahh, I did say 'individually' for a reason. Nobody wants a present made of painful hurty death for THEMSELVES!

At least, nobody that the good ones want around, right?

Addition by subtraction is a delightful thing. The ones who chose to leave are the ones who we can actually help. The ones who don't are the ones we're not qualified to be imposing our will on.

People are people, and children are blank slates. Let's give them options individually instead of punishing them collectively.

Or, if we really don't care, then just leave them alone. But no more pretending we care about the civilians, right? We either care, or we don't. If we care, then we should give them options other than 'blowing up stuff you're going to need later, and possibly some old friends, too'

That hasn't worked well so far, has it? Like. . . ever.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:47 am UTC

Agreed.
From your keyboard to the ears of God.

Cross your fingers. I don't know who has placed themselves in God's place this week.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

Tyndmyr
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:01 am UTC

learsfool wrote:So has anybody asked the actual citizens what they want?

Because for . . what . . a couple of billion dollars, we could do a lot for them.

We could buy land in a number of different countries that are far away from others and give them enough resources to support a million or so easily enough using sustainable farming techniques.

Several times that if we help them invest in hydroponics or aquaponics.

And if we wrap a corporation around them and make 'not hurting anybody' their job, and offer it up individually, then those who are willing to give it a go get that chance at an actual improvement, right?

I mean, seriously. . 'Box of Explosions' should never have been on the table. Who wants that?


As someone mentioned, this was never about what they wanted.

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learsfool
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:30 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:As someone mentioned, this was never about what they wanted.

Exactly, and this is also a trick to destroy their framing of the question.

Some actual citizens care about innocent people in war-torn regions, and they're getting pulled into this.

If the options are out there, then the framing becomes a whole lot more challenging, doesn't it?

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learsfool
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:31 am UTC

addams wrote:Agreed.
From your keyboard to the ears of God.

Cross your fingers. I don't know who has placed themselves in God's place this week.

Sadly, I think it's safe to say that it's not somebody who cares about innocent people *sigh*

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:36 pm UTC

learsfool wrote:So has anybody asked the actual citizens what they want?

Because for . . what . . a couple of billion dollars, we could do a lot for them.

We could buy land in a number of different countries that are far away from others and give them enough resources to support a million or so easily enough using sustainable farming techniques.

Several times that if we help them invest in hydroponics or aquaponics.

And if we wrap a corporation around them and make 'not hurting anybody' their job, and offer it up individually, then those who are willing to give it a go get that chance at an actual improvement, right?

I mean, seriously. . 'Box of Explosions' should never have been on the table. Who wants that?


I think this is an awesome idea. If you were running for $political_office, I would vote for you on this alone.
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Tyndmyr
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:09 pm UTC

learsfool wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:As someone mentioned, this was never about what they wanted.

Exactly, and this is also a trick to destroy their framing of the question.

Some actual citizens care about innocent people in war-torn regions, and they're getting pulled into this.

If the options are out there, then the framing becomes a whole lot more challenging, doesn't it?


I do care about innocent people in war-torn regions, to some degree. Unfortunately, if I'm being honest with myself, I care a lot more about people here. Many of the options for taking care of those innocent people would pose significant costs in dollars and lives to US folks, and I'm really not eager for us to get embroiled in yet more foreign turmoil.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby morriswalters » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:26 pm UTC

learsfool wrote:So has anybody asked the actual citizens what they want?

Because for . . what . . a couple of billion dollars, we could do a lot for them.

There is no them to give money to, outside of a working government you are left with various people with assorted agendas. Money is only worthwhile when you have the capacity and the organization to place it where it needs to be. Now matter who wins eventually there is no one currently with a strong enough organization to do any good. The neighbor states are buried under refugees, and money could help there. Last time it was Iraqi's. For good or ill, IMO it has to play out on the ground with the "citizens" in Syria. Civil wars are like that. We are still in Kosovo and Iraq is a disaster in action.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:51 pm UTC

Where did the Peace, Love and Brotherhood people go?

Of course, it is not possible for the US to lead The People to Peace.
Someone mentioned the organizational skills required to reach many people with meaningful relief.

As we, The American People, sit down and look around; We might find that our fellow Humans are smarter than we look.
We might not find that. It is a possibility. If the Americans sit down what happens?

The poor, poor US. It has been carrying the burdens of the world for ever so long.
Like a NightMare that does not end. It goes on and on.

Remember the guy that pissed some God off? He was put to work rolling a-rock (yes, it is a homonym)
He rolled the rock and an eagle picked at his liver. I was thinking. I can!

When that story was written the liver was where thinking happened and the brain cooled the blood.
So; He was bad and he had to do Meaningless Work while Slowly Losing his Mind. ick.

What ever he did; Don't do that.
It is not meaningless work to help The PeaceMakers.

At this point the only thing the US is qualified to do is throw money and
Constrain that Box of Bombs.

It must be so hard to work with Bombs Bursting in Air.
Tsar? At least it was a pretty bomb.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:29 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
learsfool wrote:So has anybody asked the actual citizens what they want?

Because for . . what . . a couple of billion dollars, we could do a lot for them.

There is no them to give money to, outside of a working government you are left with various people with assorted agendas. Money is only worthwhile when you have the capacity and the organization to place it where it needs to be. Now matter who wins eventually there is no one currently with a strong enough organization to do any good. The neighbor states are buried under refugees, and money could help there. Last time it was Iraqi's. For good or ill, IMO it has to play out on the ground with the "citizens" in Syria. Civil wars are like that. We are still in Kosovo and Iraq is a disaster in action.

I really should've put 'individually' in caps or something, shouldn't I?

I think that's a key that's always left out in these discussions. It's always a collective reward or collective punishment.

Think about how it changes on the individual and small group level. The more people you get OUT of that mess, the less mess there is.

I'm not a fan of just thrusting refugees to the borders, that never works. The infrastructure can't take care of them and you end up with a whole new set of problems. But letting people get AWAY? That's something else entirely, especially when it comes to children. Let them grow up somewhere non-violent and that's one less soldier to worry about later, true?

At the least, adding more options means were either doing something GOOD, or nothing. Both are far better than sending missiles!

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:31 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
learsfool wrote:So has anybody asked the actual citizens what they want?

Because for . . what . . a couple of billion dollars, we could do a lot for them.

We could buy land in a number of different countries that are far away from others and give them enough resources to support a million or so easily enough using sustainable farming techniques.

Several times that if we help them invest in hydroponics or aquaponics.

And if we wrap a corporation around them and make 'not hurting anybody' their job, and offer it up individually, then those who are willing to give it a go get that chance at an actual improvement, right?

I mean, seriously. . 'Box of Explosions' should never have been on the table. Who wants that?


I think this is an awesome idea. If you were running for $political_office, I would vote for you on this alone.

Nooooooooooo! *twitch* ;)

If I was the sort to run for political office, then I wouldn't be able to think this clearly!

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eran_rathan
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:32 pm UTC

addams wrote:Remember the guy that pissed some God off? He was put to work rolling a-rock (yes, it is a homonym)
He rolled the rock and an eagle picked at his liver. I was thinking. I can!



Sadly, that was two different folks. Prometheus got his lever eaten (daily, by a giant eagle - at night it grew back) for giving fire to humanity.

Sisyphus had to roll the rock up the hill, yet each time he was nearly to the top it rolled to the bottom.
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:48 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
addams wrote:Remember the guy that pissed some God off? He was put to work rolling a-rock (yes, it is a homonym)
He rolled the rock and an eagle picked at his liver. I was thinking. I can!



Sadly, that was two different folks. Prometheus got his lever eaten (daily, by a giant eagle - at night it grew back) for giving fire to humanity.

Sisyphus had to roll the rock up the hill, yet each time he was nearly to the top it rolled to the bottom.

Really?
ok. Neither the men nor their punishment was real.
The Gods were such jerks, sometimes.

Where are you going to take these people from Syria to live?
I am good with the idea. It needs a little fleshing out.

Where on Earth to find a place that has Peace?
Where? oh, Where? Not Here! Maybe, here.

I don't know. What do you think?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:03 pm UTC

addams wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:
addams wrote:Remember the guy that pissed some God off? He was put to work rolling a-rock (yes, it is a homonym)
He rolled the rock and an eagle picked at his liver. I was thinking. I can!



Sadly, that was two different folks. Prometheus got his lever eaten (daily, by a giant eagle - at night it grew back) for giving fire to humanity.

Sisyphus had to roll the rock up the hill, yet each time he was nearly to the top it rolled to the bottom.

Really?
ok. Neither the men nor their punishment was real.
The Gods were such jerks, sometimes.


sez you ;)

Where are you going to take these people from Syria to live?
I am good with the idea. It needs a little fleshing out.

Where on Earth to find a place that has Peace?
Where? oh, Where? Not Here! Maybe, here.

I don't know. What do you think?


I think somewhere in Russia. The west coast of the Caspian Sea (near Georgia) is pretty underpopulated.
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:45 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
addams wrote:The Gods were such jerks, sometimes.


sez you ;)

I'm pretty sure some Greek folks way back when ;)

I think somewhere in Russia. The west coast of the Caspian Sea (near Georgia) is pretty underpopulated.


Don't forget the Southern hemisphere. There are huge swaths of Africa and South America that could be in better hands.

Also, there are TONS of sustainable eco-village type movements out there who are dying for more people just to give them some economy of scale, they're precisely the sort of person that would be refugee-friendly (and refugees would kind of be inherently intrinsically motivated and peaceful if they chose such an option), but they don't have the means to pay the up-front cost or allow 'foreigners' in. . . and that includes here in America, in Australia, Canada, and so on.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:30 pm UTC

learsfool wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:
addams wrote:The Gods were such jerks, sometimes.


sez you ;)

I'm pretty sure some Greek folks way back when ;)

I think somewhere in Russia. The west coast of the Caspian Sea (near Georgia) is pretty underpopulated.


Don't forget the Southern hemisphere. There are huge swaths of Africa and South America that could be in better hands.

Also, there are TONS of sustainable eco-village type movements out there who are dying for more people just to give them some economy of scale, they're precisely the sort of person that would be refugee-friendly (and refugees would kind of be inherently intrinsically motivated and peaceful if they chose such an option), but they don't have the means to pay the up-front cost or allow 'foreigners' in. . . and that includes here in America, in Australia, Canada, and so on.

ok. It's workable.
Now; Who is going to do it?

Not us. We can't.
Americans can do some stuff.
Not us. It will require a commitment to Peace.
It will also require some experience.

We, Americans, as a people are severely under-qualified.

ok. I know a little about the subject.
If someone wanted to talk about the subject seriously, I would.

It is complicated. It is not nice to do Brain Drain.
It could turn into Brain Drain. The way I would do it would work that way.
Not nice. But; It is better than the alternative.

Ask 'em. Test 'em.
Support those that go.
Support those that stay.

Support them all to be the best they can imagine a person to be.
That sometimes means supporting their Religion.

That sometimes means getting ideas of what might be better than the way things are into the environment.
Yes. Propaganda. Some call it Public Education. Others call it Marketing.

Not about what The Other is. But; About what We can be.
It is easy. People love to see themselves as heroes.

Selling Peace and Good Will. How hard is that?
How much does it cost?

jeeze. People may get Sticker Shock.
We pay for Peace with our lives.

Everyday our lives are given up for Something!
Peace is as good a thing as any. Pay first? Nah.

It is very, very difficult for people that do not believe you can deliver
to buy into the idea. Then someone always wants details.

The next thing you know we are arguing about stupid shit.
What color do we wear? When do we get up? Who has to do the icky work?

What happens when someone becomes ill? How do you bury loved ones?
How do you bury the strangers? Who gets to tell who what is creepy?

Peace is hard. Who is good at it? oh! I know!
Never mInd. Experts can step in. I know they exist.
Last edited by addams on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:49 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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learsfool
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:44 pm UTC

addams wrote:ok. It's workable.
Now; Who is going to do it?

Not us. We can't.
Americans can do some stuff.
Not us. It will require a commitment to Peace.
It will also require some experience.

We, Americans, as a people are severely under-qualified.

If we actually want to help, there's nothing wrong with offering other things up to people who WANT peace and are willing to leave whatever chunk of dirt people are fighting over to get it, true? Just so the people themselves are making the choice as individuals rather than us just saying 'We have decided! Here is what you have decided you want!'

Blowing other peoples' stuff up without their express permission, however, is something never really should be considered. That's just. . . never worked. We have history and stuff, it's like evidence, right?

Yes, I use the past to predict the future. I'm a wizard!!

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addams
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:08 pm UTC

Yes. I would leave my hunk of dirt for the potential of Peace on Earth.

I have a great hunk of dirt. It is not mine, alone. I, alone, own none of it, anymore.
Where is this place going to be? It is so exciting. Like an extraterrestrial adventure right here on Earth.

Experts and Authority Figures. We are going to need them.
And! I Know we have some! Somewhere.

Will they survive the Culture Clash? Watch from a distance.
It is a little funny. I have seen some clashes of that sort.

The Class divides cut across cultures. Class.
Those that choose Peace tend to be a Classier bunch than the All War All The Time station.

You will know them by their fruit. I know. It is not nice to say things like that.
But; It is true. There are a great many people involved. It is a whole culture.

Low Class; Middle Class and those that Float Above.
Good Luck! Send photos and progress reports.

The world wishes you well! I do! I do!
If you can do it there, come get me!

This is not the past. When was the last time we tried this?
oh, dear. It has not been that long. How are things going?

Israel? That is a moderate success? Where else?
What about what those people in South Africa did?

Rwanda? How is it going? Better; I hope.
It is better to think and discuss Peace than to think and discuss vindictive, destructive thoughts and actions.

We do have examples of Peace breaking out. It has happened. It could happen, again.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Tyndmyr
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:09 pm UTC

learsfool wrote:
addams wrote:ok. It's workable.
Now; Who is going to do it?

Not us. We can't.
Americans can do some stuff.
Not us. It will require a commitment to Peace.
It will also require some experience.

We, Americans, as a people are severely under-qualified.

If we actually want to help, there's nothing wrong with offering other things up to people who WANT peace and are willing to leave whatever chunk of dirt people are fighting over to get it, true? Just so the people themselves are making the choice as individuals rather than us just saying 'We have decided! Here is what you have decided you want!'

Blowing other peoples' stuff up without their express permission, however, is something never really should be considered. That's just. . . never worked. We have history and stuff, it's like evidence, right?

Yes, I use the past to predict the future. I'm a wizard!!


Actually, blowing people's stuff up has worked quite well a number of times. It all depends on your goals. If your goal is "I want our country to be happy and wealthy", then yeah, you probably want to avoid wars.

But if it's "that dude over there is a threat. He needs to be stopped", then blowing shit up works frigging amazing.

If you disagree, please describe how Hitler should have been dealt with non-violently.

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learsfool
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:21 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
learsfool wrote:If we actually want to help, there's nothing wrong with offering other things up to people who WANT peace and are willing to leave whatever chunk of dirt people are fighting over to get it, true? Just so the people themselves are making the choice as individuals rather than us just saying 'We have decided! Here is what you have decided you want!'

Blowing other peoples' stuff up without their express permission, however, is something never really should be considered. That's just. . . never worked. We have history and stuff, it's like evidence, right?

Yes, I use the past to predict the future. I'm a wizard!!


Actually, blowing people's stuff up has worked quite well a number of times. It all depends on your goals. If your goal is "I want our country to be happy and wealthy", then yeah, you probably want to avoid wars.

Yeah, I do mean the long term goal of 'not creating more problems', 'not turning would-be farmers into soldiers or terrorists', and 'not letting people with pathological personality disorders limit the options to one'. We only got the war bit right ONCE (your example) in modern history, and we've been at war constantly since then.

But if it's "that dude over there is a threat. He needs to be stopped", then blowing shit up works frigging amazing.

If you disagree, please describe how Hitler should have been dealt with non-violently.

Oh, I don't know. How about not giving the people with impulse control problems armies?

It's not like he did that alone, right? He was just a single crazy guy.

Barring that, there's always being peaceful while running up the tech tree so fast that the other guys might as well have sharpened sticks.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Vahir » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:16 am UTC

learsfool wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
learsfool wrote:If we actually want to help, there's nothing wrong with offering other things up to people who WANT peace and are willing to leave whatever chunk of dirt people are fighting over to get it, true? Just so the people themselves are making the choice as individuals rather than us just saying 'We have decided! Here is what you have decided you want!'

Blowing other peoples' stuff up without their express permission, however, is something never really should be considered. That's just. . . never worked. We have history and stuff, it's like evidence, right?

Yes, I use the past to predict the future. I'm a wizard!!


Actually, blowing people's stuff up has worked quite well a number of times. It all depends on your goals. If your goal is "I want our country to be happy and wealthy", then yeah, you probably want to avoid wars.

Yeah, I do mean the long term goal of 'not creating more problems', 'not turning would-be farmers into soldiers or terrorists', and 'not letting people with pathological personality disorders limit the options to one'. We only got the war bit right ONCE (your example) in modern history, and we've been at war constantly since then.

But if it's "that dude over there is a threat. He needs to be stopped", then blowing shit up works frigging amazing.

If you disagree, please describe how Hitler should have been dealt with non-violently.

Oh, I don't know. How about not giving the people with impulse control problems armies?

It's not like he did that alone, right? He was just a single crazy guy.

Barring that, there's always being peaceful while running up the tech tree so fast that the other guys might as well have sharpened sticks.


If I gather a bunch of fellow farmers and we sack the neighbouring town, taking all their wealth, it actually increases global well-being, as the same amount of wealth is distributed among less people (Because we killed them all). So war can sometimes be beneficial economically.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:22 am UTC

Vahir wrote:If I gather a bunch of fellow farmers and we sack the neighbouring town, taking all their wealth, it actually increases global well-being, as the same amount of wealth is distributed among less people (Because we killed them all). So war can sometimes be beneficial economically.

And chopping off one's arm is an excellent form of weight loss.

Doesn't mean it's a good idea in the greater scheme of things.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:13 am UTC

learsfool wrote:I think that's a key that's always left out in these discussions. It's always a collective reward or collective punishment.

Think about how it changes on the individual and small group level. The more people you get OUT of that mess, the less mess there is.
We do collective things because it is the only way to handle large numbers. Nobody knows who the refugees are exactly. Poor or no documents, camps used as rest and retreat areas for combatants. Most of the people aren't the mess. The government and those people actively trying to overthrow it are the mess, and the only way they are leaving is feet first. I doubt the numbers of active combatants is very large compared to, say, our army. But both sides fight where there are things worth fighting for, and at places that make the governments job difficult. The cities and towns. Thus punishing those least able to do anything but run. The process will destroy large parts of the infrastructure, making it even harder than it already is. This has become a proxy war. Take away the governments supplies and it would burn out. That isn't going to happen.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:28 am UTC

learsfool wrote:
But if it's "that dude over there is a threat. He needs to be stopped", then blowing shit up works frigging amazing.

If you disagree, please describe how Hitler should have been dealt with non-violently.

Oh, I don't know. How about not giving the people with impulse control problems armies?

It's not like he did that alone, right? He was just a single crazy guy.

Barring that, there's always being peaceful while running up the tech tree so fast that the other guys might as well have sharpened sticks.


Ah, this is one of those solutions that requires everyone to do as you do.

This is a testable theory. Go, enter a game of prisoner's dilemma, and convince all entrants to always cooperate. Have fun with that.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:45 am UTC

Peace can not be imposed on a people.
It can be offered.

It is very important to turn this mess over to Grown Ups.
The Americans have an undeserved sense of competence.

Not only that. The Americans Have Secrets! Icky Ones!
There is no place for the Americans in that part of the world, at this time.

I am out right accusing Americans of being a terrible part of this mess.
I know some of those Assholes!

Any American that thinks they are going to punish the Bad Guys may end up Spiting into a mirror.

To type into an internet Forum about Pie in the Sky schemes to promote Peace is fine.
It is dreaming of better things. It is good for us. We may come up with a workable plan. Very unlikely.

It is not ok for me to read what seem to be Americans write about how You Know so much. You don't.
Do you remember? Your nation has secrets. What do you think those secrets are? Hard to guess. Right?
That is the way secrets are.

If there are any Grown Ups left on Planet Earth, The Americans will be contained without bombing Cincinnati.
The people of the Middle East are still very hopeful that the US is their friend. That is unfounded hope.

Some of us are. The petty little Secret Keepers are not anyone's friend.
They seem to be interested in covering their own asses.

I don't usually like to look at butts. I will make an exception.

Uncover that ass. Do you think we may see an Asshole?
Could be. It is a chance we should take. Might be a bunch of Assholes. (shrug)

I don't like petty, girlie secrets. What are you doing in Syria? Born here?
Do you know How Long this shit with the Americans playing tug-of-war has been going on?

2004! This has been in the works sense 2004!
Get the Grown Ups in there.

The people of the US have problems of their own.
The US Police have turned into Gangs.
The US people have attained levels of Poverty not seen sense the great depression.
The US people are frightened of one another.
The US people are frightened of the government.
The US people are not All having the worse time, ever.

Many are. Get yourself into your own business.
Support those that are willing to work toward Peace.

Ask the UN to oversee this thing. Get the problem children out to there.
That means You!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:49 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
learsfool wrote:
But if it's "that dude over there is a threat. He needs to be stopped", then blowing shit up works frigging amazing.

If you disagree, please describe how Hitler should have been dealt with non-violently.

Oh, I don't know. How about not giving the people with impulse control problems armies?

It's not like he did that alone, right? He was just a single crazy guy.

Barring that, there's always being peaceful while running up the tech tree so fast that the other guys might as well have sharpened sticks.


Ah, this is one of those solutions that requires everyone to do as you do.

This is a testable theory. Go, enter a game of prisoner's dilemma, and convince all entrants to always cooperate. Have fun with that.

No, this definitely isn't a prisoner's dilemma scenario. It stopped being anything close the moment I brought up 'more options' and 'individual'

Come on, you're smart, look for SOLUTIONS, not problems that don't apply.

And your problem was ONLY World War 2. 'Not wasting money on a military and spending it on pure research until that problem crops up' is still quite viable, and that was in the part you replied to.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:59 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
learsfool wrote:I think that's a key that's always left out in these discussions. It's always a collective reward or collective punishment.

Think about how it changes on the individual and small group level. The more people you get OUT of that mess, the less mess there is.
We do collective things because it is the only way to handle large numbers. Nobody knows who the refugees are exactly. Poor or no documents, camps used as rest and retreat areas for combatants. Most of the people aren't the mess. The government and those people actively trying to overthrow it are the mess, and the only way they are leaving is feet first. I doubt the numbers of active combatants is very large compared to, say, our army. But both sides fight where there are things worth fighting for, and at places that make the governments job difficult. The cities and towns. Thus punishing those least able to do anything but run. The process will destroy large parts of the infrastructure, making it even harder than it already is. This has become a proxy war. Take away the governments supplies and it would burn out. That isn't going to happen.

Right, and isn't their supply their people?

I'm going to go back and argue that just because handling large numbers is 'hard' doesn't mean it's insurmountable. Refugees have a destination, they stand out rather well actually.

Who cares if they don't have documents or papers? Do they cease to be people because they have no paperwork? Does paperwork give them some special status?

I think we're letting idiots in our government and media have FAR too much control over how this question is framed.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:37 am UTC

oh. Refugees are a huge problem.
Paperwork is a little bit of the problem.

There are experts. There are.
Those people know we must work in teams.

It is so good of you to think of each and every one as a simple human being deserving of all the best.
That is what they are. I know that some of the people will be complicated.

dear god. Some will not be complicated.
Some portion of every population will be a Royal Pain in the Ass.

The cynics are always able to find examples of why we are doomed.
Those examples are people that need help and are so hard to help.

The Pie in the Sky solutions are such a good idea.
Those solutions will work like Magic with a great many people.

I have been around Refugees. They can be so humble and willing.
Sweet and kind and on their last nerve. The French can be trusted.

They have experience not shooting. They have uniforms.
They have cute accents. They can talk to the Russians.

What can we do except pray?
I know it does not help.
It does not hurt either.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:03 am UTC

addams wrote:oh. Refugees are a huge problem.
Paperwork is a little bit of the problem.

There are experts. There are.
Those people know we must work in teams.

It is so good of you to think of each and every one as a simple human being deserving of all the best.
That is what they are. I know that some of the people will be complicated.

dear god. Some will not be complicated.
Some portion of every population will be a Royal Pain in the Ass.

The cynics are always able to find examples of why we are doomed.
Those examples are people that need help and are so hard to help.

The Pie in the Sky solutions are such a good idea.
Those solutions will work like Magic with a great many people.

I have been around Refugees. They can be so humble and willing.
Sweet and kind and on their last nerve. The French can be trusted.

They have experience not shooting. They have uniforms.
They have cute accents. They can talk to the Russians.

What can we do except pray?
I know it does not help.
It does not hurt either.

:)

You're seeing it, aren't you?

The biggest problem is that there aren't any options.

We're the cleverest monkeys on the planet, we can at least TRY to be creative.

If we circle back to 'individual' and 'options' it's amazing how many of these concerns look kind of silly.

I don't blame anybody here, it's all in the framing and the training, isn't it?

So let's reframe. This sucks. Let's try some new things. Let's use evidence. Let's experiment!

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Angua » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:05 am UTC

Wait, where are you going to put the Syrians who want to leave? Other countries? I hope you mean putting them in the US (or other countries doing the moving), but I don't think other countries would be that happy about foreigners buying up a lot of their land and moving in a new population of people.
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett

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learsfool
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby learsfool » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:16 am UTC

Angua wrote:Wait, where are you going to put the Syrians who want to leave? Other countries? I hope you mean putting them in the US (or other countries doing the moving), but I don't think other countries would be that happy about foreigners buying up a lot of their land and moving in a new population of people.

A couple of us mentioned quite a few sources of 'land for sale', it's hardly uncommon.

Again, as mentioned, part of this is controlling the framing of the question.

If we're actually considering sending BOMBS somewhere, aren't we supposed to put all the options on the table?

There are already more solutions to the land issue than there are to the 'how do we deal with all the angry, broken people we consistently create when we do this stuff' issue.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Angua » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:24 am UTC

Just because land is for sale doesn't mean that it's going to be sold to the US government to be given to Syrian refugees.

I'm just saying, you need to consider how the people where you're moving them to will react. And given how people historically react to immigrants, this is something that raises concerns.
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett


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