Syria Civil War Spreads

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Mon May 27, 2013 12:47 am UTC

Vahir wrote:According to Wikipedia:

China
The future of Syria should be independently decided by the Syrian people themselves free from external interference. We hope the international community continues to play a constructive role in this regard.


Russia
A number of Russian and other intellectuals affirmed that Russia would not tolerate any interference in Syria.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... overnments


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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Ormurinn » Mon May 27, 2013 11:03 am UTC

"Alas, Syria, Fair province. Thou art an enemy's now"

Seems in this case, as in so many others, artificially-drawn boundaries are at the heart of everything.
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Vahir » Mon May 27, 2013 9:14 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:"Alas, Syria, Fair province. Thou art an enemy's now"

Seems in this case, as in so many others, artificially-drawn boundaries are at the heart of everything.


I would argue that all borders are artificially drawn.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Ormurinn » Mon May 27, 2013 10:51 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:"Alas, Syria, Fair province. Thou art an enemy's now"

Seems in this case, as in so many others, artificially-drawn boundaries are at the heart of everything.


I would argue that all borders are artificially drawn.


You don't see a difference between the borders of, for instance, European states, which follow ethnic demarcations and cultural boundaries such that the population form a mostly-unified polity with a large degree of common heritage and culture, and the monumental post-colonial clusterfuck-cartography of Africa and the middle east that carves up land with no consideration of the people trying to live on it?

Syria has the Alawite-Sunni divide in this case (which isn't solely down to the borders and owes a lot to the Ottoman millet system's failings) but there is for instance, the problem of there being no Kurdistan for the Kurds, so they get shafted everywhere, or the disastrous handling of the Mandate of Palestine.
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Mon May 27, 2013 11:09 pm UTC

Yes. This I have heard, before.

What you wrote about The People I have heard in The Past.
This reason is valid. So; What can be done?

This sort of shit has been going on in the Middle East a long time.
I am willing to allow The Blame to rest squarely on the shoulders of the Men that divided The World after the last world war.

Now: Fix it!

How are you going to Fix it?
Maybe the difference between a Kurd and a Syrian is not so large, after all the Kurds and Syrians are Homeless.

They can all live in a Camp and the children will learn each others languages and marry and rase families that look like Kurds and Syrians. Some will have light skin. Some will be strikingly beautiful.

Peace through refugee camps? It might work.
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Ormurinn » Tue May 28, 2013 12:33 am UTC

addams wrote:Yes. This I have heard, before.

What you wrote about The People I have heard in The Past.
This reason is valid. So; What can be done?

This sort of shit has been going on in the Middle East a long time.
I am willing to allow The Blame to rest squarely on the shoulders of the Men that divided The World after the last world war.

Now: Fix it!

How are you going to Fix it?
Maybe the difference between a Kurd and a Syrian is not so large, after all the Kurds and Syrians are Homeless.

They can all live in a Camp and the children will learn each others languages and marry and rase families that look like Kurds and Syrians. Some will have light skin. Some will be strikingly beautiful.

Peace through refugee camps? It might work.


It's going to fix itself, eventually. The Kurds aren't going to stop until they get a state/region (theres been some progress with Turkey conceding to some of their more reasonable demands and a degree of self-rule) of their own, or there aren't any Kurds left. It'll be bloody. Less defined/shat upon ethnic groups will assimilate into the countries they've been squashed into, as the Circassians have done.

The west can't ride in on a white horse and fix what we broke though. We're not powerful enough anymore, and we've put too much effort into getting in with the current regimes.
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Tue May 28, 2013 2:38 am UTC

Good. The part about the War fixing its self.

The Bloody part? Why?

What do you mean by Bloody?
It does not have to be Bloody.

The People of the US have a great many troubles of their own.
If the People of the US can not live in Peace, then they have no business
Exporting something they do not have!
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby schismtracer » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:56 pm UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22908836

Obama decided that the "red line" was crossed and declared the US would start actively supporting the Syrian rebels (apparently just CIA advisors and supplies, for now). Syrian officials reacted predictably.

Vietnam round...three? four?...here we come.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:08 pm UTC

I can't help but think the timing is terribly convenient for an administration who wants to divert the discussion away from domestic issues. More like Kosovo, if you ask me.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Vahir wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:"Alas, Syria, Fair province. Thou art an enemy's now"

Seems in this case, as in so many others, artificially-drawn boundaries are at the heart of everything.


I would argue that all borders are artificially drawn.


You don't see a difference between the borders of, for instance, European states, which follow ethnic demarcations and cultural boundaries such that the population form a mostly-unified polity with a large degree of common heritage and culture, and the monumental post-colonial clusterfuck-cartography of Africa and the middle east that carves up land with no consideration of the people trying to live on it?


You do realize that they are only this way because of hundreds of years of what we now call 'ethnic cleansing' and genocide, right? See Also: Rhineland, Holy Roman Empire, Thirty Years War, Hundred Years War, etc.
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:20 pm UTC

The Middle East, Central Asia, and Africa have been catching up with the ethnic cleansing though. Leave it alone for a few decades and Kurds will only be things in your cottage cheese.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby sardia » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:14 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The Middle East, Central Asia, and Africa have been catching up with the ethnic cleansing though. Leave it alone for a few decades and Kurds will only be things in your cottage cheese.

The ethnic cleansing doesn't involve a 100% kill rate, remember all those refugees flee into neighboring countries. Now you got a bunch of poor angry young kids stuck in a country whose resources are strained by said refugees. That's not even discounting international intervention/aid.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:26 am UTC

sardia wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The Middle East, Central Asia, and Africa have been catching up with the ethnic cleansing though. Leave it alone for a few decades and Kurds will only be things in your cottage cheese.

The ethnic cleansing doesn't involve a 100% kill rate, remember all those refugees flee into neighboring countries. Now you got a bunch of poor angry young kids stuck in a country whose resources are strained by said refugees. That's not even discounting international intervention/aid.

Yes. It is potentially a very bad situation.
It is also an opportunity for the good in the Human Spirit to show through.

Angry young men? Yes.
Everybody has some.
Young men come in that flavor.

There is a great deal of work to be done.
If they are put to work doing Good Things for others, most will come out of it OK.

Some angry young men Want to be angry young men.
I have seen it. Advantaged young men attempting to find something to be angry about.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jun 16, 2013 3:57 am UTC

sardia wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The Middle East, Central Asia, and Africa have been catching up with the ethnic cleansing though. Leave it alone for a few decades and Kurds will only be things in your cottage cheese.

The ethnic cleansing doesn't involve a 100% kill rate, remember all those refugees flee into neighboring countries. Now you got a bunch of poor angry young kids stuck in a country whose resources are strained by said refugees. That's not even discounting international intervention/aid.


What makes you think that in Medieval Europe, refugees didn't flee?

Also, what makes you 'French' or 'Italian' or 'German' are all homogeneous ethnicities? Sure, each might see themselves as one nation now, but they were made up of many many many different tribes that were constantly fighting and/or fucking each other.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby yedidyak » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:44 am UTC

A difference between the situation in medieval Europe and the modern Middle East is that states grew in Europe. States grew based on the different populations. Sure there was fighting between them, but essentially they grew from the bottom up. In the ME, the British and French essentially drew random state borders cutting through pretty clearly defined tribal borders.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby BlackSails » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:29 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:A difference between the situation in medieval Europe and the modern Middle East is that states grew in Europe. States grew based on the different populations. Sure there was fighting between them, but essentially they grew from the bottom up.


This isnt true. Look at the history of germany or italy. Or for that matter, Poland

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:51 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
yedidyak wrote:A difference between the situation in medieval Europe and the modern Middle East is that states grew in Europe. States grew based on the different populations. Sure there was fighting between them, but essentially they grew from the bottom up.


This isnt true. Look at the history of germany or italy. Or for that matter, Poland

Good You BlackSails;
I can't argue The Point.
You may be able to.

What is The Point?
Are the People Fighting?

The People are Running from The Fighting. RIght?
Every effort to Keep Peace for The People should be made.

The Europeans know a great deal about Peace.
Some of The African Nations know, too.

What makes Peace? The People dedicated to Peace make Peace.
I Know It's Tricky!

What!? We have All of Human Knowledge to draw from.
We have experts in Warfare.
We have No Experts in Peace? How can That Be?

oh. Warfare. Are we still buried deep in War?
Remember what Peace was like? I do, Vaguely.

It was a long time ago, for me.
Some of our people have never known Peace.

Talking about Peace is like telling Fairy Tails?
Talking about War is like talking about Computer Games?

How are Things going in The Camp? Does it have a Name, yet?
Mecca 2? Everyone is going There? What is it like?

"Peace Be With You?"
"And; Also With You?"

Do The People Learn how to behave themselves around a bunch of Strangers?
Some Stranger than Others? It is a very Strange situation.

The World has handled this kind of Thing before.
Dear World; Handle it.

When you get all done restoring Peace and Justice to the Middle East
ummm. I would sure like to see the US get a little help.
They don't need anymore Money at The Top.

Some basic service to The Bottom would be Nice.
Some of The People on the Streets and Roadways of the US make the Jordan Refugees look like the Advantaged Class.

Just Politics. Don't take it personally.
Your people are expected to be Independent!
Go! Eat Berries! The Bears do.

There is a bit of a Migration of Humanity through were I am at The Moment.
The Poor People say they are going to a place that is like a Refugee Camp.

It is in The North. When they get there Everything will be OK.
It is so much like talking to refugees. Only there may not be a camp in The North.

Some of these people are using the last reserves of their Strength to get to a place that most likely does not exist.
Pilgrims. Like the Pilgrims of Old. It is difficult for me to talk to these people. I have begun to avoid them.

If I can not be sweet and helpful, Then I should leave them alone. I can not approve of The Migration of The Poor.
What is really Happening? Are these the symptoms of a Great Depression? Well?
How is this different from what the People of the Middle East are going through?

Threats of Bombs? Yes. We have that. On the TV and Internet.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby yedidyak » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:23 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
yedidyak wrote:A difference between the situation in medieval Europe and the modern Middle East is that states grew in Europe. States grew based on the different populations. Sure there was fighting between them, but essentially they grew from the bottom up.


This isnt true. Look at the history of germany or italy. Or for that matter, Poland


All of those were separate political entities with similar cultures that (more or less) by choice came together for common benefit. They didn't have borders randomly thrown at them by foreign powers.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby cphite » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:I can't help but think the timing is terribly convenient for an administration who wants to divert the discussion away from domestic issues. More like Kosovo, if you ask me.


Yeah, it's funny how they finally decided that the "red line" was in fact crossed right as the domestic scandals were building momentum...

So in order to distract people from the IRS and EPA being used to harass and intimidate political opponents, and the DOJ being used to intimidate the press, and the NSA snooping... the regime is going to hand out small arms, anti-tank, and anti-aircraft weapons to affirmed supporters of Al Queda. Because even though doing so will undoubtedly come back to bite us in the ass, it hopefully won't happen until after the next election cycle.

By then, they'll have something else to distract people with.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:09 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:I can't help but think the timing is terribly convenient for an administration who wants to divert the discussion away from domestic issues. More like Kosovo, if you ask me.


Yeah, it's funny how they finally decided that the "red line" was in fact crossed right as the domestic scandals were building momentum...

So in order to distract people from the IRS and EPA being used to harass and intimidate political opponents, and the DOJ being used to intimidate the press, and the NSA snooping... the regime is going to hand out small arms, anti-tank, and anti-aircraft weapons to affirmed supporters of Al Queda. Because even though doing so will undoubtedly come back to bite us in the ass, it hopefully won't happen until after the next election cycle.

By then, they'll have something else to distract people with.

While it could and probably is a ploy to distract from the current scandals, intervening in Syria isn't the On/Off thing. We were already providing food and nonleathal gear to the "affirmed supporters of Al Qaeda". This is just the next step of whatever our goals are in the Middle East. That's my criticism of the Administration, we're not sure what we want, so we ask for it all. We want to hurt Iran's faction, and deny Al Qaeda, and prevent a humanitarian crisis. It's hard to do one well, and impossible to do all three, especially with the piecemeal strategy we're doing.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:27 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
yedidyak wrote:A difference between the situation in medieval Europe and the modern Middle East is that states grew in Europe. States grew based on the different populations. Sure there was fighting between them, but essentially they grew from the bottom up.


This isnt true. Look at the history of Germany or Italy. Or for that matter, Poland


All of those were separate political entities with similar cultures that (more or less) by choice came together for common benefit. They didn't have borders randomly thrown at them by foreign powers.


I'm sorry,. what? Poland was carved up by the Germans (Holy Roman Empire), Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Slavs, Templars, Russians, etc. for at least a thousand years, mate. Most of its borders were rather 'imposed' by foreign empires (albeit ones next door, but still).
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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:37 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
yedidyak wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
yedidyak wrote:A difference between the situation in medieval Europe and the modern Middle East is that states grew in Europe. States grew based on the different populations. Sure there was fighting between them, but essentially they grew from the bottom up.


This isnt true. Look at the history of Germany or Italy. Or for that matter, Poland


All of those were separate political entities with similar cultures that (more or less) by choice came together for common benefit. They didn't have borders randomly thrown at them by foreign powers.


I'm sorry,. what? Poland was carved up by the Germans (Holy Roman Empire), Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Slavs, Templars, Russians, etc. for at least a thousand years, mate. Most of its borders were rather 'imposed' by foreign empires (albeit ones next door, but still).


He's correct about Italy and Germany though. If anything, it was outside empires trying to keep them apart.

As for Poland, whether it's called "Poland" or "the Grand Dutchy of Warsaw" or "The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" It's undeniable that a geographically-contiguous area containing a mostly homogeneous people in the area that we would call "Poland" has existed since the Slavic migrations - and it was usually administered as a single region and had a common identity - even if it swore fealty to someone else.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby iamspen » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:51 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:As for Poland, whether it's called "Poland" or "the Grand Dutchy of Warsaw" or "The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" It's undeniable that a geographically-contiguous area containing a mostly homogeneous people in the area that we would call "Poland" has existed since the Slavic migrations - and it was usually administered as a single region and had a common identity - even if it swore fealty to someone else.


Not really. The borders of Poland itself have shifted massively east to west and back again a half dozen times in the last 150 years alone, almost always involving some sort of mass slaughter of ethnic groups along the way. That's pretty consistent with the conversation at hand, wouldn't you say?

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:58 pm UTC

iamspen wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:As for Poland, whether it's called "Poland" or "the Grand Dutchy of Warsaw" or "The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" It's undeniable that a geographically-contiguous area containing a mostly homogeneous people in the area that we would call "Poland" has existed since the Slavic migrations - and it was usually administered as a single region and had a common identity - even if it swore fealty to someone else.


Not really. The borders of Poland itself have shifted massively east to west and back again a half dozen times in the last 150 years alone, almost always involving some sort of mass slaughter of ethnic groups along the way. That's pretty consistent with the conversation at hand, wouldn't you say?


Yeah. Poland's in an indefensible position sandwiched between three giants.

Nevertheless it's survived, and been a nation with a coherent identity even when subjugated. Seems a convincing argument that there are naturally-delineated borders, and they arent all artificial.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby cphite » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:02 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
cphite wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:I can't help but think the timing is terribly convenient for an administration who wants to divert the discussion away from domestic issues. More like Kosovo, if you ask me.


Yeah, it's funny how they finally decided that the "red line" was in fact crossed right as the domestic scandals were building momentum...

So in order to distract people from the IRS and EPA being used to harass and intimidate political opponents, and the DOJ being used to intimidate the press, and the NSA snooping... the regime is going to hand out small arms, anti-tank, and anti-aircraft weapons to affirmed supporters of Al Queda. Because even though doing so will undoubtedly come back to bite us in the ass, it hopefully won't happen until after the next election cycle.

By then, they'll have something else to distract people with.

While it could and probably is a ploy to distract from the current scandals, intervening in Syria isn't the On/Off thing. We were already providing food and nonleathal gear to the "affirmed supporters of Al Qaeda".


True... but there is a difference between supplying food and non-lethal arms, and supplying weapons - particularly anti-tank guns and anti-aircraft rockets. And the sad fact is, all we're doing by providing them anything is prolonging the conflict. The rebels aren't going to win this thing unless there is some kind of direct intervention from outside. Just giving them more weapons without direct intervention will only make this thing last longer, and increase the number of people killed on both sides - and even more people who aren't on either side.

The forces of Assad have been making gains for months, and are preparing to go on the offensive. Small arms aren't going to change that. Anti-tank weapons aren't going to change that; not by themselves. No; basically all the administration is doing is making sure this thing heats up just a little, and stays alight just a while more. At least until people forget about the scandals.

This is just the next step of whatever our goals are in the Middle East. That's my criticism of the Administration, we're not sure what we want, so we ask for it all. We want to hurt Iran's faction, and deny Al Qaeda, and prevent a humanitarian crisis. It's hard to do one well, and impossible to do all three, especially with the piecemeal strategy we're doing.


The problem is that this administration lacks any form of real leadership, and is instead simply looking to leverage the news of the day to it's political advantage. There is no reason to believe at this point that the rebels in Syria would be an improvement over Assad; not for the people of Syria, and certainly not for American interests in the region. Then again, this was also the case in both Egypt and Libya.

No... we're sending arms to the Syrian rebels - the same rebels who've sworn allegiance to Al Queda and other terrorists organization, and who've committed atrocities that are quite in line with anything that the Assad regime has done - because right now it's politically expedient. It'll distract people from the fact that their government is spying on them, and that the IRS, EPA, and DOJ are being used to harass and intimidate people who don't fall in line.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:19 pm UTC

The boldness of your claims indicates your in depth knowledge of the region. Do go on, what are America's interests in Syria? Please elaborate on how Assad was gaining ground steadily for months. The US would never support a group that would commit atrocities for mere political expediency? Only Obama would compromise our values for political reasons? Please go on.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby cphite » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:32 pm UTC

sardia wrote:The boldness of your claims indicates your in depth knowledge of the region.


Your responses indicate that you didn't actually read what I wrote...

Do go on, what are America's interests in Syria?


The primary interest the US has in Syria is that be stable. There is no indication that any government formed by the rebels would create more stability, or that it would be more in line with US interests in the region as a whole. So there is no good reason for the US to intervene, especially in a manner that will actually drag out the conflict there.

Please elaborate on how Assad was gaining ground steadily for months.


Assad's forces have retaken several key areas in the past few months, including Qusair which was held by rebels for over a year. The rebels are outnumbered, poorly supplied, and outgunned. And just as importantly, they aren't entirely united.

The US would never support a group that would commit atrocities for mere political expediency?


Yes, they would - and that's what they're doing in this case. The fact that previous administrations have done this doesn't excuse it.

Only Obama would compromise our values for political reasons? Please go on.


At no point did I say that "only" Obama would do this. I said that Obama is doing it now.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby sardia » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:56 am UTC

The primary interest the US has in Syria is that be stable. There is no indication that any government formed by the rebels would create more stability, or that it would be more in line with US interests in the region as a whole. So there is no good reason for the US to intervene, especially in a manner that will actually drag out the conflict there.

Assad's forces have retaken several key areas in the past few months, including Qusair which was held by rebels for over a year. The rebels are outnumbered, poorly supplied, and outgunned. And just as importantly, they aren't entirely united.
es, they would - and that's what they're doing in this case. The fact that previous administrations have done this doesn't excuse it.At no point did I say that "only" Obama would do this. I said that Obama is doing it now.

\\\
Who told you the US should value stability in Syria over anything else? Stability isn't a goal in itself. The USSR was plenty stable, doesn't mean the US wanted them to stick around. Kicking Israel to the curb would enhance the stability of the Mideast greatly, but we don't. Stability in Syria would only benefit the US if the status quo was beneficial to the US. It's not, a chaotic Syria that threatens a sectarian conflict has benefits in addition to it's drawbacks. For example, Israel, a key US interest, benefits from a disrupted supply chain. Hezbollah and Iran need Syria as an ally and logistics corridor. There's also the humanitarian crisis that combines a high body count with a refugee situation that DESTABILIZES allied/neighboring countries. If you're ignoring that, then you're either extremely callous or willfully ignorant just to make your claims sound coherent.

I find it funny that you claim supporting unsavory groups cannot be excused, yet you're doing the exact same thing when you want stability in Syria. You're putting a stable Syria that violently repressed protests ahead of any other interests the US could have. You're certainly excusing yourself here.

Your response has been mostly a series of semi-plausible accusations that for some reason, always lead back to a combination of conspiracy and incompetence by the Obama administration. Get your head out of the Republican echo chamber for a bit. The flaws of the Obama administration are many, and these scandals are real but you don't have to exaggerate or lie to make a point.

PS Are you implying an Afghanistan allusion? Because that's hilarious if you are.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:07 pm UTC

Umm, removing Israel won't stabilize the Mideast. The REAL enemies of the Islamic Republics are the Conservative Monarchies. And that's not getting into Shiite vs Sunni.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:16 pm UTC

Every time Americans intervene more Muslims die. We intervened when the Soviets occupied Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda was the result. What is the total body count for all the American interventions? It is much higher than any American losses. Just Iraq may be greater than Syria to date. Depending on whose numbers you look at. It's bloody in any case. I am a lifelong Democrat. In the next election that might not be the case, which leaves me with the appalling thought that I might sit it out. I have no interest in Syria and have heard not stated any rationale that I believe. We are going to have discussions with the Taliban after what, 10 years? Iraq is a mess and the Arab Spring has done nothing of note.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:46 pm UTC

Every time Russians intervene more Muslims die. They intervened when the Americans occupied Viet Nam. Khmer Rouge was the result. What is the total body count for all the Russian interventions? It is much higher than any Russian losses. Just Ukraine may be greater than Chechnya to date. Depending on whose numbers you look at. It's bloody in any case. I am a lifelong United Russian. In the next election that might not be the case, which leaves me with the appalling thought that I might sit it out. I have no interest in Chechnya and have heard not stated any rationale that I believe. We are going to have discussions with the Ichkerians after what, 20 years? Chechnya is a mess and the Arab Spring has done nothing of note.


Just thought I'd like to give some perspective. Not that I approve of all or even most of the US's actions, just that the US isn't the cause of every single problem in the world, that removing the US wouldn't turn the world into a paradise, that removing the US would probably actually make the world somewhat more terrible. Turns out liberal democracies have more incentive not to commit atrocities in other countries than dictatorships have. You only know about the horrible crap the US has done because of freedom of the press.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:22 am UTC

CorruptUser, I have no doubt. However I lose no sleep over what the Russians do. I can't take moral or ethical responsibility for the Russians or for that matter the Syrians, I can only speak for me. I don't insist that I'm right. I just wanted to say it.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby sardia » Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:56 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:CorruptUser, I have no doubt. However I lose no sleep over what the Russians do. I can't take moral or ethical responsibility for the Russians or for that matter the Syrians, I can only speak for me. I don't insist that I'm right. I just wanted to say it.

You just wanted to say what? Let's try isolationism again? Intervention is bad? We should be cautious in our foreign actions? I don't get it. If you can't defend your own beliefs, how much did you really believe them?

Corrupt, while the countries surrounding Israel do have poor fundamentals, and would probably turn on each quickly, like they are now; that doesn't mean Israel hasn't been a source of tension and instability in the region. Israel isn't just a scapegoat, they were and are doing pretty bad things that anger many Muslims.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:04 am UTC

The Arabs are angry that Israel exists. Keep in mind that in 1947, the Arabs committed a huge amount of genocide within their own countries, which is why virtually no Jews live anywhere else in the Mid-East besides Israel. It's pretty clear they want to 'de-Jew' the entire region.

I hope your idea of stability doesn't involve mass genocides.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby iamspen » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:14 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The Arabs are angry that Israel exists. Keep in mind that in 1947, the Arabs committed a huge amount of genocide within their own countries, which is why virtually no Jews live anywhere else in the Mid-East besides Israel.


And Iran (I know, Persian, not Arab). People tend to forget not know that; Iran's relatively significant Jewish minority, and that a Jew is guaranteed a seat in parliament. Not that it makes Iran's positions toward Jews or Israel in any way defensible, but it adds a significant nuance to the conversation and makes the Iranians a much more complex* society than we tend to give it credit for.

*again, not a defense of their blatantly authoritarian Islamic regime

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:25 am UTC

And that number used to be high prior to the genocides.

Oh, and for reference, "genocide" is defined as any policy that intentionally or unintentionally reduces any ethnic group's numbers or percentage of the population. That includes forced/encouraged emigration of an ethnic group or encouraging the other ethnic groups to have more children, as well as the traditional mass murders. (And yes, allowing millions of people into your country is technically genocide).

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby addams » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:37 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The Arabs are angry that Israel exists. Keep in mind that in 1947, the Arabs committed a huge amount of genocide within their own countries, which is why virtually no Jews live anywhere else in the Mid-East besides Israel. It's pretty clear they want to 'de-Jew' the entire region.

I hope your idea of stability doesn't involve mass genocides.

What? Sure there are Arabs that are angry that Israel exists.
There are Americans that are angry that Israel exists.

The Arabs I have spoken to are not angry that Israel exists.
Well; If they did not have other problems they might be.

I have never had a conversation with an Arab that included much about Israel.
Israelis are very interested in Israel. The others have other things to think about.

Yes. You may find a group of Arabs that think that way.
I knew an Lovely Italian Man. He thought Jews were The Master Minds of the World.

No matter what the ill. He could find a way that it was The Jews.
At first I though it was funny. Then a little frightening.
Then funny, again. It is like the word Jew stands in for Other.

He had never knowing met one. People are so silly.
If a man knows what makes all the ills in the World,
then that man sleeps easy.

Jews. Someone will fix the Jews.
Until then They are in The Middle East (where ever That is)
Far, Far from Italy.

Except when They, the Jews, Control the Mass Media.
They do that in Italian. Tricky.

Arabs know Jews are Arabs, too.
Well; Some are. Is there a Blood test?

Yes. Yes. I have heard. You can tell by looking.
Maybe. I can't. Arabs can? ok.

Still; Arabs don't hate Jews. Some are hateful people, Not All.
Not even a slim majority.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:25 am UTC

Not even a slim majority of The Deep South was active in turning the lives of African Americans into hell, but the majority of people tolerated or protected the Klan. That's all it takes to let a crime against humanity occur; do nothing when it is happening in front of you. Had the people of the Deep South ganged up on the Klan and the various other hate groups, things might have been better for African Americans.

Same with the Mid East. The overwhelming majority of people may not have participated in the genocides during the 1940s, but they didn't stop it.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:54 am UTC

Ok. There is no defensible position where the US intervenes in Syria and gains anything of value. As a purely budgetary matter how do you propose to pay for it? Borrow the money? We just cut the defense budget as part of the sequester. Explain to me why I want to spend the money to help people who will bite us at the first opportunity?

The rebels have extremists. The present regime has extremists and Iran. Like them or hate them, you better be prepared to deal with them. They are already threatening to send troops. If they do are we prepared for direct conflict with them? There is a good chance that we will have no fig leaf from the UN to cover and legitimize the deployment of assets greater than those we have at present. We might be blocked there by Russia or China. And they might do so for no other reason then to make our life miserable and to distract us.

The power relationships in the middle east are complex, we've showed that we don't understand them, and the Pentagon and the Political structure can't plan realistically. They smoke fairy dust and believe in Unicorns. I can see the debacle that was the Iraqi invasion played out again. Differently perhaps, but messy none the less. A no fly zone may or may not work. But it puts our already stretched assets in harms way. If you lose assets then prior history says that we will try to double down to get out of the hole.

Since I haven't heard anyone anywhere state a clear way forward help me understand what we hope to gain. What fairy tale do you think will take place? That the Syrian regime falls and is replaced with a democratic government which will make nice? That Israel will gain safety by removing a thorn in her side?

Explain to me our moral or ethical position. Why do we have the right to tell the Syrians what type of government they should have? Because a hundred thousand people are dead? How many would we kill by intervening? Peace in the region? How would that work? Perception among the population is that we kill Muslims because they are Muslims, with some basis in fact. We use blunt weapons that kill the innocent as well as those who are not.

Lastly, why should I trust our government? What is their agenda? They, being the complex power structure which is composed of long term highly secretive bureaucracies who seem to always have an agenda different than the political one.

CorruptUser wrote:Turns out liberal democracies have more incentive not to commit atrocities in other countries than dictatorships have. You only know about the horrible crap the US has done because of freedom of the press.
Liberal democracies have no reason to commit genocide in other countries at all. However indiscriminate murder seems to have never been a problem for most of them, particularly in the colonial period. And of course they practiced it at home at various times. The treatment of slaves and native Americans in the US, the treatment of Aborigines in Australia, the treatment of Jews in Europe. The South American cultures destroyed by the Spaniards and Portuguese. And that free press has often been a cheerleader. Our moral superiority is a thin garment.

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Re: Syria Civil War Threatens to Spread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:00 pm UTC

morriswaters wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Turns out liberal democracies have more incentive not to commit atrocities in other countries than dictatorships have. You only know about the horrible crap the US has done because of freedom of the press.
Liberal democracies have no reason to commit genocide in other countries at all. However indiscriminate murder seems to have never been a problem for most of them, particularly in the colonial period. And of course they practiced it at home at various times. The treatment of slaves and native Americans in the US, the treatment of Aborigines in Australia, the treatment of Jews in Europe. The South American cultures destroyed by the Spaniards and Portuguese. And that free press has often been a cheerleader. Our moral superiority is a thin garment.


You only know about those because they happened in the Lib Democracies; other forms of society are much more 'efficient'.


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