1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Diadem » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:32 pm UTC

That's bad. That's very bad.

It's also weird. I don't understand why Israel would use depleted uranium ammunition. As far as I know it is used to give bullets and grenades extra piercing power. But hamas has no tanks or high-grade kevlar suits. So what do they use it for? I don't see a military use.

On a competely different topic, this quote from the same article is also interesting:
"Once again, the world is watching in dismay the dysfunctionality of the Security Council," UN General Assembly chief Miguel d'Escoto said Sunday.

He misunderstands the goal of the UN security council. The purpose of this council is not to say yes or no on the morality of conflicts, or to pass resolutions upholding international law. Its purpose is to avoid war. Specifically nuclear war. The idea is that any resolution that is not backed by all of the major powers in the world fails, thus ensuring no major conflict can arise over them. It has nothing to do with right or wrong.

In this case, the security council is functioning exactly as its supposed to. A one-sided comdemnation of Israel without US backing would risk severe escalation of the conflict. So it's a good thing this does not happen.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby roc314 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:59 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:You misunderstood the point I was making. Colonists in the context of this conflict means 'Israelians living in Gaza or the West-Bank'. These are often hardliners. Fundamentalists. They oppose any concession towards the Palestines, and consider those areas rightful part of Israel. Not all do, of course, I don't want to generalize, but it's a common attitude amongst colonists. Violence by this group against Palestinians is quite common. This is wrong. Israel barely acts against this. Colonists who attack Palestinians are rarely tried. That is even more wrong. Basically Israel is refusing to uphold the law in this case. I'm not sure if that classifies as a war crime, but it's certainly a serious atrocity. And with 'act' I don't mean bomb them. I mean arrest them and give them a fair trial.
Sorry for misinterpreting what you said. Yes, I agree this is bad.
Diadem wrote:In this case, the security council is functioning exactly as its supposed to. A one-sided comdemnation of Israel without US backing would risk severe escalation of the conflict. So it's a good thing this does not happen.
The article linked above wrote:According to diplomatic sources, the US blocked a Security Council resolution, with US Deputy Ambassador Alejandro Wolff arguing that an official statement that criticizes both Israel and Hamas would not be helpful.
It's not a one-sided condemnation.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:04 pm UTC

To everyone who has decided that Israel is behaving horribly, what should they have done or be doing to stop the rocket fire on their towns? Please remember the exact nature and ideology of Hamas when composing responses.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Lumpy » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:27 pm UTC

Could the same thing be said of asking what Palestinians should do to stop colonists?

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:30 pm UTC

I don't disagree that putting Israeli colonists in the west bank area is pretty shitty practice, but I'm not sure what it has to do with the situation at hand. The towns being attacked in Israel are well within Israel's borders, and not encroaching on Gaza.

EDIT: Did you just mean in general? I think in response to Israeli colonists, the Palestinians should appeal to the UN, appeal to Israel, etc. I'm not sure if that's been attempted? Just as I think people are losing respect for Israel for bombing Gaza, I think people lose respect for Palestinians for attacking Israel.

I don't really think any sort of legal venue would really result in helping anyone, either Palestinians trying to get Israeli's off the West Bank or Israelis trying to get Palestinians to crack down on terrorists. But it's better then this.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:37 pm UTC

Lumpy wrote:Could the same thing be said of asking what Palestinians should do to stop colonists?

While there haven't been any colonists in Gaza since 2005, yeah, go ahead and ask the question. Unless you're one of those types who believe that having an Israel is encroaching on Palestinian land, which I assume you're not since you've yet to call Israel a genocidal apartheid state.

EDIT: Or actually, don't ask the question. Military occupation without annexation for no known security reason is probably immoral enough to warrant a violent response anyway. I speak of the conditions in the West Bank, which has become the greatest quagmire known to current mankind...

But the question is most likely inapplicable to the West Bank. I bet that if Palestinians killed enough Israelis in the West Bank, Israel would actually withdraw from the West Bank (as they should). The problem in Gaza is that, unlike Israel (and I'm going to hammer this point in an endless number of times because it's so fucking important), Hamas does not care for the lives of its own people. My question is: how does one morally fight an enemy who believes that surviving your attack by the barest shreds with massive civilian casualties is a victory?

In all honesty, the best thing for the region would be for Israel to somehow make Hamas surrender, discrediting their ideology of martyrdom.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby westcydr » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:50 pm UTC

dic_penderyn wrote:Being completely impartial here (in that I have no preference for either of the states in this war)....I find this disgraceful.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80 ... =351020202

:evil:

Ok, just to try to be a little unbiased, can you get a link from a news agency NOT run by the country that supplies rockets to Gaza and has a branch of it's military specifically created to spread the "Islamic Revolution" to the world? Thanks:-).
I am not saying the story is a fabrication, I am saying the source is suspect.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby dic_penderyn » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:29 pm UTC

Thats all the info I can get. I watched the interview live on that channel. The Norwegian medic seemed to be very sure that it was DU, or DIME.
The only reason I was watching that channel was because while flicking through the news channels, there was only PressTV and Fox (faux) ,showing reports on the Gaza story at the time.
I tend to watch many different news channels to see if I can get the real story. They are ALL biased and have their own agendas.
I think all news channels should have a disclaimer at the start of every story..."This is what WE think is happened".

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:51 pm UTC

dic_penderyn wrote:Thats all the info I can get. I watched the interview live on that channel. The Norwegian medic seemed to be very sure that it was DU, or DIME.
The only reason I was watching that channel was because while flicking through the news channels, there was only PressTV and Fox (faux) ,showing reports on the Gaza story at the time.

I tend to watch many different news channels to see if I can get the real story. They are ALL biased and have their own agendas.
I think all news channels should have a disclaimer at the start of every story..."This is what WE think is happened".


DU *or* DIME? I probably missed something, but those two weapons tend to have pretty different effects...
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby apeman5291 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:02 pm UTC

The Uranium thing is suspect, but it's not a new move on Israel's part.
Wikipedia wrote:Military uses include defensive armor plating and armor-piercing projectiles.

Depleted Uranium is almost entirely U-238, which has a very long half life and very low radioactivity. It's even a controversial subject in the military, but the use of DU for bullets isn't new. Studies conflict on whether or not long term health effects result from exposure, but the UN has decided (in paragraph numbers 54, 55, and 56) that DU bullets are not considered poisonous weapons.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:25 pm UTC

apeman5291 wrote:The Uranium thing is suspect, but it's not a new move on Israel's part.


I've never heard of Israel using DU-rounds on civilians, linky?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Diadem » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:33 pm UTC

dic_penderyn wrote:Thats all the info I can get. I watched the interview live on that channel. The Norwegian medic seemed to be very sure that it was DU, or DIME.


Well that's a rather big difference, is it not? DIME weapons are used to limit the explosive radius of a weapon, to minimize collatoral damage. Put simply: DU = bad, DIME = good. So saying Israel uses either DU or DIME weapons is not saying anything at all.

I tend to watch many different news channels to see if I can get the real story. They are ALL biased and have their own agendas.
I think all news channels should have a disclaimer at the start of every story..."This is what WE think is happened".


My rule of thumb is that if a (news) source known to be biased towards X says something negative about X, it's probably true. Furthermore if two opposed factions both say the same thing, it's also probably true.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby apeman5291 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:14 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
apeman5291 wrote:The Uranium thing is suspect, but it's not a new move on Israel's part.

I've never heard of Israel using DU-rounds on civilians, linky?

I meant that it's not a new concept. I don't know of Israel doing it before, but the US has used them in the First gulf war and the Iraq war, as well as several others (here, in the second section).

Secondly, I might be starting up something else but, Israel is not shooting at civilians (on purpose). They shoot at people standing in their way. If a civilian decides to pull a Tienanmen Square and gets shot, it adds to the civilian death count. If a tank shell misses and hits a building behind the militants, it adds to the civilian casualties. In an offensive into a densely populated area, civilians will get killed. I agree that it's bad, but it has to be expected. The rate of civilian deaths in Iraq hovers around 20 per day (based on an average from 3 different sources provided here, and some math). So even if half of all Gaza casualties were civilian, it would still put this conflict underneath that rate.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby dic_penderyn » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:25 pm UTC

I wish I had recorded the exactly what the medical guy said on the news report.
He mentioned depleted uranium (DU), and also mentioned DIME. I have never heard of DIME, but he did mention phosphorus type materials.
Sorry really wish I could remember exactly what he said. He seemed quite adamant about it, but as a previous poster said, its a pretty biased station towards Garza's and is pretty anti Zionist, so I dont know what to believe. :roll:

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby 3.14159265... » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:51 pm UTC

To everyone who has decided that Israel is behaving horribly, what should they have done or be doing to stop the rocket fire on their towns? Please remember the exact nature and ideology of Hamas when composing responses.
How about not bomb a university. How about not bombing when school goes out?

Imagine a group of Afghans in order to "retaliate" for being attacked in Afghanistan decided to bomb University of Western (Because they do research for the military that is used in Afghanistan) and commit a suicide attack in front of City hall in Toronto but make it during a kids show.

They are terrorist no? now imagine terrorists with F-16, you (many Americans) bought them. :wink:
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:44 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:To everyone who has decided that Israel is behaving horribly, what should they have done or be doing to stop the rocket fire on their towns? Please remember the exact nature and ideology of Hamas when composing responses.

Open the borders into Gaza. Send in a few thousand doctors, and build a hospital. Rebuild all the infrastructure that has been destroyed by the IDF over the years. Start with electricity and sewage. Apologise for punitive attacks like housing destruction by bulldozer. Open investigations into killings by IDF members, particularly at checkpoints, and actually convict some people. Allow all ambulances originating in Gaza to pass freely to hospitals in Israel. Call a blanket halt to all attacks on Gaza, and make it stick, even in rocket attacks continue. These steps are the only way to make HAMAS irrelevant and useless to the people of Gaza. And above all, once these things are underway, encourage elections and alternative parties to HAMAS, ones that don't have weapons at all. When Gaza is a safe, healthy place to live, and when it is not a prison, a ghetto and a slum rolled into one, no one will feel the need to fire rockets into Israel, and attacks will stop. If Israel gets halfway there, and really demonstrates honest intentions, a ceasefire will be possible.

Israel would have had to accept some amount of rocket attacks in order for this path to succeed. But it's chosen path hasn't managed to stop the attacks yet, they continued at a much increased rate even under the bombardments. The ground assault will obviously stop them, but only temporarily, while all the time encouraging HAMAS' future attacks when this operation ends. So measure the number of attacks Israel would have to accept on a peaceful, magnanimous path against the number of extra attacks it has accepted during the bombing, and those it will have to weather whenever this slaughter is at an end.

You asked me to take into account the exact nature of HAMAS in answering. In doing so, I conclude that HAMAS will never, ever make the first move, because it thrives on violence being done by both sides. Israel must realise what the effective way to fight such an organisation is. It's not by destroying schools. It's by building them.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:53 am UTC

Your post was really interesting Dream, as it's a sentiment I've felt for years. I would love to see Israel take this incredibly lauded high road, protect itself from rocket fire and bomb Gaza with aid (term not meant ironically). I agree, I really think it would go miles towards starting a peace process, and probably succeed.

The hypothetical of that occurrence in my mind also however, includes a stupid, happenstance mistake, like someone throwing a punch, or spoiled rations getting a kid sick, or even something more flagrant, like Hamas opening up attacks, no matter how small, or a suicide bomber blowing up a checkpoint or someplace deeper into Israel, or an IDF soldier wrongly shooting someone, and the whole process shutting down.

I would love to see your hypothetical occur; Israel was donating huge sums to Palestinian aid before 2005ish, and is well equipped to help the Palestinians (I remember reading somewhere that Israel has one of the best first/fast response hospital systems in the world). It would be supremely interesting to see Hamas, Fatah, Hizbollah, all democratically kicked out of the region because Israel stood as the better solution for Palestinian prosperity.

From an anecdotal perspective, I've heard a number of stories of Israel treating Palestinian civilians that have been injured in military actions, but I've also heard stories of pregnant women being held at checkpoints. All in all, it's a shitty situation, and I while I applaud your vision, I don't really expect it to occur.

EDIT: Oh, but super interesting point you made, that Israel will succeed by building schools not bombing them... Apparently in the 60's, Israel edited a number of their history textbooks to minimize reference to events between the 30's and 50's, things like the Holocaust and Egyptian/Lebanese/Jordanian voting against the statehood. The biggest issue I see with the problem at hand is that both sides are enforcing the cycle of hate. The wiki article on the west bank includes mention that there were no institutions of higher learning built until 2000ish, IMAGINE how much could have been done if Israel had built a string of schools along it's border, or even in the west bank. Here, here's a few million bucks, we'll check in periodically and see how students are doing and funding will increase with their SAT/ACT/international test scores. Go, teach.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby 3.14159265... » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:18 am UTC

Agreed Dream and Izaw, this is what led me to conclude that Israel is no better than Hamas.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:24 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:The hypothetical of that occurrence in my mind also however, includes a stupid, happenstance mistake, like someone throwing a punch, or spoiled rations getting a kid sick, or even something more flagrant, like Hamas opening up attacks, no matter how small, or a suicide bomber blowing up a checkpoint or someplace deeper into Israel, or an IDF soldier wrongly shooting someone, and the whole process shutting down.

Try to find something on the response to the Omagh bombing in Northern Ireland. Not the public reaction, the political one. The parties to the peace process had to suck up 29 dead and over 200 injured in what was a deliberate attempt to spur further responses from Loyalist paramilitaries and the British Government. It was the single worst bombing in NI history. It would have been ample justification for rinstating draconian security measures that would have ended the peace process. Everyone involved in the peace process, however, was far too invested in it to let it go. And once they had decided on a peaceful response to a bombing like Omagh, they absolutely had to make it work. Israel has to get to that point, and has to do it over the bodies of those who will doubtless die at the hands of people who would lose out to peace. That is a hard road to follow, but it is the only one, and I guarantee that there are Palestinians who will go hand in hand with Israel, if only both sides let them.

I wonder at your post. How can you fell these things and not cry when you see Israel doing the exact opposite? How much longer will it take to start off down the road to peace after the events of the past week?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:26 am UTC

Dream wrote:Open the borders into Gaza. Send in a few thousand doctors, and build a hospital. Rebuild all the infrastructure that has been destroyed by the IDF over the years. Start with electricity and sewage. Apologise for punitive attacks like housing destruction by bulldozer. Open investigations into killings by IDF members, particularly at checkpoints, and actually convict some people. Allow all ambulances originating in Gaza to pass freely to hospitals in Israel. Call a blanket halt to all attacks on Gaza, and make it stick, even in rocket attacks continue.


So, apart from an increase in terrorism...

This path of action seems like it will simply allow Hamas to get bigger rockets, bigger guns, better training, and a far stronger hold and entrenchment on Gaza than what they have now (especially considering the fact that aid and everything aside, Hamas still controls how the populace perceives it, as they're the ones running the media and educational facilities) ?

Hamas isn't going to just walk out the door when it gets "told" to leave.

Sooner or later, a fight with Hamas will flare up. The later, the bloodier. This operation should have been undertaken years ago, without a ceasefire that gave Hamas the chance to build up what they have. Would have saved both Israeli lives, and Gazan civilians.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby apeman5291 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:34 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:Are you really under the impression that Hamas will simply walk out the door when they get "told" to?

No. They'll die out when they no longer have a purpose. Hamas built itself up on Gazans' hatred for Israel. If Israel takes away all reasons for that hate, then Hamas will lose every bit of support it has, and will be reduced to nothing more than a puny little organization that makes idle threats that it has neither the will nor the power to carry out.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby roc314 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:40 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:So, apart from an increase in terrorism...

This path of action seems like it will simply allow Hamas to get bigger rockets, bigger guns, better training, and a far stronger hold and entrenchment on Gaza than what they have now (especially considering the fact that aid and everything aside, Hamas still controls how the populace perceives it, as they're the ones running the media and educational facilities) ?

Hamas isn't going to just walk out the door when it gets "told" to leave.

Sooner or later, a fight with Hamas will flare up. The later, the bloodier. This operation should have been undertaken years ago, without a ceasefire that gave Hamas the chance to build up what they have. Would have saved both Israeli lives, and Gazan civilians.
Well obviously, an increase in openness in both government and media would be needed to make this work.

This is a guerrilla war, not likely to be one won by pure force. In order to end the conflict, Israel has to make Hamas irrelevant. The best way to do this is to kill their how they get their support, namely, help out the people in Gaza so that Hamas can't claim Israel is oppressing anyone. With a free and open media to spread the news, after some time of increased attacks, Hamas would lose all support.

More Israelis would probably die in the short term, but in the long term, they win out.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:42 am UTC

apeman5291 wrote:No. They'll die out when they no longer have a purpose. Hamas built itself up on Gazans' hatred for Israel. If Israel takes away all reasons for that hate, then Hamas will lose every bit of support it has, and will be reduced to nothing more than a puny little organization that makes idle threats that it has neither the will nor the power to carry out.


So long as Israel exists, Hamas has a purpose. Religious/political indoctrination goes a long way, and arguably, much further than "bribes by the Zionist entity", especially when, as it turns out, the citizens of Gaza are going to be thriving under the rule of Hamas.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:43 am UTC

roc314 wrote:Well obviously, an increase in openness in both government and media would be needed to make this work.

This is a guerrilla war, not likely to be one won by pure force. In order to end the conflict, Israel has to make Hamas irrelevant. The best way to do this is to kill their how they get their support, namely, help out the people in Gaza so that Hamas can't claim Israel is oppressing anyone. With a free and open media to spread the news, after some time of increased attacks, Hamas would lose all support.

More Israelis would probably die in the short term, but in the long term, they win out.


How exactly do you get that openness, considering Hamas is the one calling the shots? Unless of course, you'd rather push for occupation, but we tried that one already...
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:56 am UTC

Dream wrote:I wonder at your post. How can you fell these things and not cry when you see Israel doing the exact opposite? How much longer will it take to start off down the road to peace after the events of the past week?


Well first off, I'm not responsible for peace, nothing I do or think is going to influence what actually happens, so what I want is sort of a moot point. I try and argue with my grandfather, who is very much an Arab-hating Jew, but he also donates copious amounts of money to education programs in Israel, so, I mean, what can I really say?

It bothers me very much that Israel does these things, but I also see a similar responsibility on the part of other organizations to serve the Palestinian people. Like I said previously, imagine what would happen if Hamas sold rockets for food, or literally just built infrastructure for the regions. But that's not the point, Israel has the resources to, in my opinion, humanitarian-ly shove so much aid down the Palestinians proverbial throats that they wouldn't want anything else. If I was in charge of the IDF, I'd be carpet bombing Gaza with food and fertilizer and parachute construction supplies and stuff and things in, send over brigades of (defended) civil engineers, and that sort of thing, but... I mean... Yeah, that's what I'd do, no caveats.

But,
apeman5291 wrote:Hamas built itself up on Gazans' hatred for Israel. If Israel takes away all reasons for that hate, then Hamas will lose every bit of support it has, and will be reduced to nothing more than a puny little organization that makes idle threats that it has neither the will nor the power to carry out.


Hamas isn't funded by the Palestinians. Their disapproval can vote it out, but won't make it weaker. There would certainly be an escalation of violence. And probably result in a large mounting "Zionist bribes!" headlines.

But swords to plowshares is such an ancient, mostly unseen, concept, I don't know how you can really be disappointed it's NOT happening. That's not to say that I don't wish it would happen. I'm going to read about NI though, that's a body of history I know almost nothing about.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby roc314 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:58 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:How exactly do you get that openness, considering Hamas is the one calling the shots? Unless of course, you'd rather push for occupation, but we tried that one already...
It's really not hard. For example, in WWI, the Allies dropped propaganda posters on the German armies from airplanes (talking about the goodness of Freedom and Democracy and much better the world would be if they cooperated with the Allies). This, coupled with the lack of food, was sufficient to turn the German morale, helping to hasten the end of the war. Similar efforts were made on both sides of the Cold War. In the every major conflict, at least one side has tried to use similar methods to stir up discontent against the home government.

Now imagine that you are sending in workers to build hospitals and such, rather than actively working to kill them.

All you have to do is get enough Palestinians to want open government to force Hamas to do so, and there you go.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby apeman5291 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:00 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:So long as Israel exists, Hamas has a purpose. Religious/political indoctrination goes a long way, and arguably, much further than "bribes by the Zionist entity", especially when, as it turns out, the citizens of Gaza are going to be thriving under the rule of Hamas.

But they wouldn't be bribes. They would be genuine help. It would be an olive branch, an opportunity to benefit from your neighboring country, instead of living in fear of attack and blockade. There would be a movement in Gaza that would go for that instead of cling to Hamas. Eventually, that movement would win out.

yoni45 wrote:How exactly do you get that openness, considering Hamas is the one calling the shots? Unless of course, you'd rather push for occupation, but we tried that one already...

Pull the troops out and open the border? Begin negotiating with government officials in press conferences instead of firing rockets randomly into cities? Somebody said something about seeing the other side as human instead of enemy. That would help too.

Izawwlgood wrote:Hamas isn't funded by the Palestinians. Their disapproval can vote it out, but won't make it weaker.

If an organization doesn't have the support of the people in its own country, it will certainly be weaker. They might get funding from other Arab nations, but their members are all still Palestinian. Lose those, and the organization weakens.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:04 am UTC

roc314 wrote:It's really not hard. For example, in WWI, the Allies dropped propaganda posters on the German armies from airplanes (talking about the goodness of Freedom and Democracy and much better the world would be if they cooperated with the Allies).


I'd question how effective "evil mind-washing Zionist propaganda flyers" would be in Gaza. It may have been done, but both WWI and WWII were won militarily, not because the people decided to overthrow their governments.

roc314 wrote:Now imagine that you are sending in workers to build hospitals and such, rather than actively working to kill them.


Which is back to my other point: if the people are *thriving* under Hamas rule, I doubt they'll be ready to overthrow them anytime soon.

apeman wrote:But they wouldn't be bribes. They would be genuine help. It would be an olive branch, an opportunity to benefit from your neighboring country, instead of living in fear of attack and blockade. There would be a movement in Gaza that would go for that instead of cling to Hamas. Eventually, that movement would win out.


You're not the one who'll be broadcasting and shaping the minds of the Gazans. Last time a movement tried to "win out" over Hamas in Gaza, their members were thrown off the 14th stories of high rises. Hamas isn't exactly a party willing to share, especially when that other party happens to be collaborating with the enemy.

apeman wrote:Pull the troops out and open the border? Begin negotiating with government officials in press conferences instead of firing rockets randomly into cities? Somebody said something about seeing the other side as human instead of enemy. That would help too.


How would doing all that change the fact that Hamas will still control the minds of the populace? Especially considering the fact that under this plan, it is Hamas rule that will be providing Gazans with prosperity...
Last edited by yoni45 on Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:07 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby apeman5291 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:07 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:Which is back to my other point: if the people are *thriving* under Hamas rule, I doubt they'll be ready to overthrow them anytime soon.

I doubt that Hamas will be able to say "Look, you're thriving under our rule, kill the evil Zionists!" while at the same time receiving aid publicly from them.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:09 am UTC

apeman5291 wrote:I doubt that Hamas will be able to say "Look, you're thriving under our rule, kill the evil Zionists!" while at the same time receiving aid publicly from them.


Why not? They *are* the ones who will be twisting the facts to fit their needs, and not only that, they'll have results to show for it. Heck, upto now, they've not only been getting aid, but they've been *stealing* considerable chunks of it, and even that hasn't done much to turn anyone against them...
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby 3.14159265... » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:25 am UTC

Yoni, you have a bias that you are not willing to let go off that needs to be slapped off your face.

Have you ever considered the other side other than rhetorically or to ridicule?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:30 am UTC

Pi, did you just threaten someone in an internet argument with physical violence? In a conversation egging towards what could be done to advocate for peace? The irony is just too rich.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby 3.14159265... » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:28 am UTC

Nah, when Peshmerga told me the same thing about my sentiment towards America, I took it as "if you were to rid yourself of this sentiment, it would feel like a slap in the face", it was.

I have used the phrase since, in the hopes that accomplishes the same in others as it did for me.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Mabus_Zero » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:35 am UTC

I think this discussion would benefit from a restatement of the culminating factors, then and now, which leave us where we are today, and a descriptive analysis of the different types of nastiness constituting the aggressive members of either party interested in living in Israel.

Anyone care to step up to the board?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:56 am UTC

I actually really liked the "what could various parties do to make peace" tangent.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby 3.14159265... » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:03 am UTC

I think Dream pretty much covered that, I'll give it a try.

I think the Palestinians need to learn to kick ass. They should work hard (I mean individually), to make contact with intellectuals and learn. Then they should use that knowledge to make themselves a center of knowledge, given the amount of anger they have it could serve to create some great mathematicians, philosophers, artists, and theoretical physicists. They should try their best to kick Israeli's asses in knowledge as their prophet prescribes.

The problem is that solution is really hard, if it is me and my dad and two older brothers were recently killed in an attack (them intellectuals too) and mom was crying about how to feed my little sister during this blockade.

What can the Palestinians do? other than submit, because I do not believe anyone should submit to anyone.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Mabus_Zero » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:22 am UTC

I think that, given the situation, Israel will be forced to continue as it has been doing, or pursue a sytem of liquidating the Palistinean population, given the political situation. It doesn't have a lot of choices. Palestine has some options, too. Divert from militaristic posturing, and attempt to outshine the Israelis by generating a freer internal market, and using it it attract foreign business interests in a fashion that compromises Israel's international position, forcing them to fold on the issue of retaining hegemonic control in the area, or face cultural and economic stagnation. Circumstances disallow this from being a feasible peace solution in the immediate future, however.

Ostensibly, the best solution will embody free-principles of market and person for everyone, and the individualized conception of civic duty which largely consists of voluntary militia, driven less by ideology then absolute necessity.

Israel is unlikely to take steps to back away from it's heavy handed approach to things, however, and the Palistineans are unlikely to concede much in their own right, either.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby 3.14159265... » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:30 am UTC

Palestine has some options, too. Divert from militaristic posturing, and attempt to outshine the Israelis by generating a freer internal market, and using it it attract foreign business interests in a fashion that compromises Israel's international position, forcing them to fold on the issue of retaining hegemonic control in the area, or face cultural and economic stagnation. Circumstances disallow this from being a feasible peace solution in the immediate future, however.


I don't think you are implying that is an option, am I correct?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:50 am UTC

I'd love to see Israel send in armed and defended civil engineers to build facilities for Palestinians. Are they being shot at? They will shoot back. Are they being left alone, or working peaceably with Palestinian laborers/engineers? Look! A school! A buncha wells! Apartments and shops and a power plant! Green houses and community centers!

Pi made good point too, I want to second it. Palestinians have been dealt a short end of a stick, and many involved with organizations like Hamas are choosing to use that short end very poorly. If they educated themselves and collaborated with intellects around the world and advocated for peace or even ceasefires and further education, I think that'd go a long way, and perhaps more importantly, it would be something they earned for themselves without bloodshed, taking the high road that many (sometimes rightfully) demand Israel take.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:36 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I'd love to see Israel send in armed and defended civil engineers to build facilities for Palestinians. Are they being shot at? They will shoot back. Are they being left alone, or working peaceably with Palestinian laborers/engineers? Look! A school! A buncha wells! Apartments and shops and a power plant! Green houses and community centers!

Initially, for critical projects, I'd say leave it to a third party, so that tensions are not inflamed by an armed presence. It can be paid for by Israel, but early on the less present Israel is in the lives of Gazan people, the better. To go back to the Northern Ireland situation, "Troops Out!" was a massive sticking point, and a huge hurdle was cleared when patrols were ended, when checkpoints were dismantled, and finally when the military left for good. You don't want to mess with that process in order to dig a sewer. Then move to internationally built infrastructure with plaques declaring "A gift from the people of Israel to the people of Gaza." This could be critical but not life saving stuff, like bridges and telecoms. Finally Israeli built projects in prominent public places, built by Israeli companies, things that individual Palestinians can really connect with, like community centres and greenhouses and so on. I know it might be tempting to get in there quickly and completely, but these things take a long, long time. And obviously, the more Palestinian involvement, the better, but without expecting too much of them after so much blockading and starving.

However, you're absolutely right that when they see the bunch of well and schools, they're going to think they live in paradise now that they're friends with Israel.
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