"Throwing Out the Wheat"

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"Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Cytoplasm » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:29 pm UTC

"Are we being too tolerant of gluten-intolerance?"

I'm not sure what this lady is trying to get at...

Celiac patients have almost twice the normal risk of cancer, and one-third of them suffer from another autoimmune disease, like Type 1 diabetes, lupus, or multiple sclerosis. (They may also be susceptible to schizophrenia.) As far as we know, the only way for people with celiac to stave off these dangers is to eliminate gluten from their diets—entirely and without exception—for the rest of their lives.


...But diagnosed celiacs only account for a small fraction of the bloated and still-expanding market for gluten-free products. (In total, the disease affects just 0.75 percent of the population.)


I am getting the impression she just dug herself in. >.>
And if I could find the leaflet in the book mentioned, most go undiagnosed for years and it's hereditary.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Bassoon » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:13 pm UTC

He's basically saying that the "free" market shouldn't cater to the minorities who have special needs, despite the fact that the "free" market can do whatever the fuck it wants. If the businesses that do cater to Celiacs are making money, I see no reason why they should be complained about.

And then there's the whole part where this doesn't even make sense. He's suggesting that we don't let stave off cancer and a whole host of nasties for a small population of people just because they ARE a small population of people. He gets the point and says that he's all for people eating whatever they want, but then he goes on to say that he thinks this may just be general food anxiety in the population.

In a way, he's telling the non-celiacs to suck it up and eat gluten products. If he really doesn't care about what people eat, he wouldn't care about people eating gluten.

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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby poxic » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:40 pm UTC

I can appreciate the sentiment that people should learn more hard facts about food and digestion. I get frustrated with popular misinformation, too ("carbs" are not the source of all evil, folks).

The article doesn't sound like the author wants all gluten-free products to go away. He does want people to understand what's going on with them so they don't end up causing more problems. If you aren't gluten intolerant but avoid it anyway, you could end up making things worse:
Daniel Engber wrote:Now imagine that you've cut out gluten from your diet completely—that means no bread, no cereal, no wheat whatsoever. Chances are you'll have reduced your total intake of carbs, and thus the amount of α-amylase in your gut. In other words, the mere fact of being on a gluten-free diet could make you more sensitive to grains and cereals—which would only reinforce your conviction that you're gluten-intolerant.

He could have worded things better, but I don't think he's advocating against accommodating those with celiac disease. He's against taking something that afflicts a small percentage of the population and starting a fad diet based on it. ("Gluten intolerance may be a medical condition, but according to Hasselbeck, it's also an approach to eating—like South Beach or Skinny Bitch—that's supposed to make you lose weight and feel good about your body.")

He does come off rather bitchy, but he isn't at all advocating that everyone must eat gluten.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:56 pm UTC

I read that as him saying no-carb diets actually cause gluten intolerance. If he just wrote that instead of the wordy mess he did publish, he wouldn't be misconstrued for an ass. That said, I may be misreading this as well, when in fact, he is an ass.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Cytoplasm » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:00 am UTC

I love you guys.

Well, the "small" is about to get bigger! We have at least three people in a town of 10,000 + with celiacs. I might be added to that soon. It's genetic too, so a good portion of my mother's side might have it and not know it.
Yeah, so I just came across this article, but I took it very personally. It's not fun at all and there are so very many yummy things that can't eat. There are numeral food items with wheat, rye, barley and so forth. Plus, being sick most of the time also sucks. :?
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:31 am UTC

I agree with... almost all the points made so far, by everyone.

I'm pro-gluten-free products, and pro-food-education. However, only ONE of those is profitable, which is why there's only ONE out there being pimped. Quite the opposite, food education would be a money-losing industry, and so the free market disposes of it by means of it's secondary virtue (the first, of course, being improved health).

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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Angua » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:28 pm UTC

I don't have a citation (this is from a coeliac friend) but in the UK all products will have to be labelled whether or not they are gluten-free in the next couple of years. So I hope that other countries start doing this sometime too.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby EnderSword » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:46 pm UTC

That's the exact problem that he's trying to point out though I think.

1 in 133 people requires Gluten-free food, the others who do not have a negative reaction to it actually suffer in nutrition and beneficial bacteria by Not eating it.

People who have a condition requiring they not eat it can be aware of it and adjust their diet accordingly, and its nice they have more options available to them...but the author's concern if how many people simply believe Gluten itself is bad for you, which is not true.

Peanuts are somrthing people are allergic too, and there's an increasing number of 'peanut free' products.
But you don't see many other people who are not allergic to peanuts start eating only peanut free foods like you do with gluten-free foods.

Basically he's saying its becoming a trendy thing with no basis for most of the people participating in the diet, and could potentially be harming themselves by going along with it.

I think he's kind of claiming it's the marketing equivalent of saying 'Calcium-Free' ...when you say it, or advertise it people's first thought is 'Well, they wouldn't say it unless it was good' and then start to figure it is good and therefore Calcium is bad.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Angua » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:57 pm UTC

Endersword 1/133 people are actually quite a lot. I know a couple of coeliacs, some who have become coeliac and one who has been since he was born. Them knowing what they can and cannot eat (especially for children who go over to friend's houses) is essential. People also drink soy milk when they don't have to, but lactose intolerant people need to know what has milk in it.

You don't realise how pervasive wheat is in our society, not only things like bread, but also in icing, sauces, some brands of chips, some chocolate bars and a whole host of other things. At the moment in the UK you have some things that say gluten free and for the rest the national association of coeliacs or whatever they're called has to publish a book with all the brand names that are gluten free. Having to check every single time you want something new and having to remember all that isn't easy.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby EnderSword » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:14 pm UTC

It makes no difference in the world if it's a lot or not. Could be 120 out of 133....if 13 are Not eating it because they think it helps when its actually hurting them, its wrong.

It Has nothing in the universe to do with how pervasive wheat is or anything to do at all in any way whatsoever what the dietary needs are for the people who need that diet.

It's people who DON'T need that diet that are being convinced to join a diet they don't need and could be harming them.
People with diabetes might need insulin for their condition...but other people who DON'T need it shouldn't be shooting it into their veins.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:17 pm UTC

Yes, people making dietary decisions that are bad for them because the decision is good for someone else and they are not educated enough about it to understand that it is bad for them is a bad thing. I don't see what you're getting at here, though.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby TaintedDeity » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:18 pm UTC

The problem is people being misinformed and a being a little stupid.
The problem is not that there is food catering to ceoliacs.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby EnderSword » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:32 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:Yes, people making dietary decisions that are bad for them because the decision is good for someone else and they are not educated enough about it to understand that it is bad for them is a bad thing. I don't see what you're getting at here, though.


Well, that's the entire article.
That's the only real point, its not really a complicated one. No controversy in it, its just him pointing it out.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Angua » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:21 pm UTC

EnderSword wrote:It makes no difference in the world if it's a lot or not. Could be 120 out of 133....if 13 are Not eating it because they think it helps when its actually hurting them, its wrong.

It Has nothing in the universe to do with how pervasive wheat is or anything to do at all in any way whatsoever what the dietary needs are for the people who need that diet.

It's people who DON'T need that diet that are being convinced to join a diet they don't need and could be harming them.
People with diabetes might need insulin for their condition...but other people who DON'T need it shouldn't be shooting it into their veins.
Cutting out wheat is not going to kill you. Your analogy would be better if you compared non-daibetic people eating sugar free stuff to this. The amount of sugar-free food out there is amazing. Labelling food sugar-free encourages people to consume this stuff even when they don't need to. This guy should be anti-sugar free if he's going to be anti-wheatfree.

And yes, the number of people with actual coeliac disease does matter. If only 1 out of every million people couldn't eat wheat then maybe labelling it would be stupid, they should know what to look for.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Lord Aurora » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:22 pm UTC

ITT: We all agree but everyone is still somehow mad at everyone else.

EDIT: Haha, just kidding. Continue.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby EnderSword » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:19 pm UTC

Cutting out wheat is not going to kill you.


Sounds like it could contribute to making you sick, or just less healthy.

Sugar-free stuff is different, because too much sugar is not just detrimental to diabetics, excessive sugar consumption has negative health effects. Wheat does not.
Not an apt analogy....But lets say Sugar-free always meant Aspertaine, and Aspertaine had negative effects, but marketing convinced you it was not only safe, but Better than sugar and it wasn't....That would be an apt analogy.

And no, again, the number makes zero difference whatsoever because it's not addressing the peole With the health problem, it's addressing the people WITHOUT that problem.
The Labelling is not the issue, other things are labelled as peanut-free and it doesn't make people not-allergic go buy more of it for themselves.

He's showing that for some reason this Gluten-free has become an odd fad the same as trendy diets. So its more than just labels altering behaviour, there's actually more of a marketing force at play.
Peanut-free ads just say 'Hey, This is peanut free' but some how Gluten-free has become "Hey, this is gluten-free (which is better for you)"
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Angua » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:23 pm UTC

If living without gluten is possible for 1/133 people I'm pretty sure it's a safe bet that it won't kill you. Oats are a viable alternative if you are saying that you need cereal (oatibix ring any bells?) and gluten-free bread still has carbs in it.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Cytoplasm » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:26 pm UTC

EnderSword wrote:It makes no difference in the world if it's a lot or not. Could be 120 out of 133....if 13 are Not eating it because they think it helps when its actually hurting them, its wrong.


Then those people are daft. Not that you're daft, they just are.

I WANT MY YUMMEH GLUTN'Z.

@Angua: The point for celiac's is the gluton is a toxin. For everyone else it's grand and delicious.

Anyways, in the comparison with diabetes..well, perhaps I should just not go on that boat. My older sister is diabetic.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby EnderSword » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:30 pm UTC

Angua wrote:If living without gluten is possible for 1/133 people I'm pretty sure it's a safe bet that it won't kill you. Oats are a viable alternative if you are saying that you need cereal (oatibix ring any bells?) and gluten-free bread still has carbs in it.


That's a dumb statement on the face of it. People live through diseases requiring constant bone marrow transplants....should we all do that?

'Live with' and 'Healthy' are different...There's no Reason for people who don't react badly to gluten to stop eating it, and some reasons for them to continue eating it.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Angua » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:31 pm UTC

Cytoplasm wrote:
EnderSword wrote:It makes no difference in the world if it's a lot or not. Could be 120 out of 133....if 13 are Not eating it because they think it helps when its actually hurting them, its wrong.


Then those people are daft. Not that you're daft, they just are.

I WANT MY YUMMEH GLUTN'Z.

@Angua: The point for celiac's is the gluton is a toxin. For everyone else it's grand and delicious.

Anyways, in the comparison with diabetes..well, perhaps I should just not go on that boat. My older sister is diabetic.
I know that it's a toxin, I'm just saying that you can't say that trying to help out a significant proportion of the population just because some other people are stupid and it could hurt them is ridiculous.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby headprogrammingczar » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:06 pm UTC

EnderSword wrote:That's a dumb statement on the face of it. People live through diseases requiring constant bone marrow transplants....should we all do that?

Strawman fallacy is fallacious. No one in this thread ever said that anyone is forced to eat gluten-free food (except for the celiacs, who would die otherwise). Pick a better argument.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby EnderSword » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:25 pm UTC

Pointing out fallacies that aren't there is also a bit silly.

Where did I say someone was forced to?
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Cytoplasm » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:02 pm UTC

It didn't, perhaps we/some of us are misinterpreting?
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:13 pm UTC

So, Ender.. let me get this completely straight....

If we label the shit, people with a certain medical condition will not get sick and/or die because they ate something that had a substance they cannot ingest.

If we don't label the shit, said people are on their own to do their own research, some of which becomes complicated.

If we label the shit, fucking morons (probably the kind of moron who believes eating nothing but bacon and steak is the Atkins diet) won't eat gluten products and continue their own personal malnutrition campaign.

.... I'm not seeing the problem here. Fucking morons kill themselves, everyone else gets lower rent. What's the big deal?
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby poxic » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:29 pm UTC

Fucking morons also get sick and die, thus raising the rent again.

In all, this doesn't sound like an issue worth getting pissy over. Yes, some people will do things like not eat gluten when it's fine for them. They'll move on soon enough to something else that scares them, and the people who actually can't eat gluten will still benefit from labels.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby The Reaper » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:34 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:.... I'm not seeing the problem here. Fucking morons kill themselves, everyone else gets lower rent. What's the big deal?

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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby netcrusher88 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:27 pm UTC

I challenge the tenet that a gluten-free diet is harmful to people who can eat gluten. Gluten is (nutritionally) just protein. There are only eight or nine essential amino acids, all of which (along with the other dozen or so) can be procured through gluten-free sources (most animal products, soy, quinoa, buckwheat, and others are complete protein sources). Obviously you need to make up the other nutritional groups as well, but the big one I think of there is complex carbs (read: bread), and rye and spelt (and others) make excellent bread - gluten free bread is not a hard thing to find.

People who are not going to eat well and fall into fad diets are not going to eat well and fall into fad diets whether you label things gluten-free (or sugar-free, or lactose-free, or...) or not.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby poxic » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:10 pm UTC

Yeah, the article's author is making the leap from "avoiding gluten" to "eating low-carb" -- he's assuming that most people who avoid gluten unnecessarily are also (or therefore) cutting down on carbohydrates. There is evidence that deliberately avoiding carbos can make it harder for you to digest gluten in the future -- at least that's what I got from his bit of science toward the end.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby EnderSword » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:30 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:So, Ender.. let me get this completely straight....

If we label the shit, people with a certain medical condition will not get sick and/or die because they ate something that had a substance they cannot ingest.

If we don't label the shit, said people are on their own to do their own research, some of which becomes complicated.

If we label the shit, fucking morons (probably the kind of moron who believes eating nothing but bacon and steak is the Atkins diet) won't eat gluten products and continue their own personal malnutrition campaign.

.... I'm not seeing the problem here. Fucking morons kill themselves, everyone else gets lower rent. What's the big deal?


Who the fuck cares if we label it? Is the article about not labelling it? Go ahead and label it Who gives a shit?

The article says 'fucking morons shouldn't eat it jsut because its trendy' That's all. And it sounds like you Agree with but you're arguing against a position that doesn't exist.

Try READING What people say instead of making up our own crap and pretending its what was said.

Yeah, the article's author is making the leap from "avoiding gluten" to "eating low-carb"


A lot of the G-free style diets do suggest Low Carbs as well. Her book tries to tell you if you're 'gluten intolerant' or not, explains why everyone should remove it from their system, gives a link between gluten and autism, she says going gluten free can cure ADHD...
Basically spreading a lot of misinformation and myths. It's a marketing effort.
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Cytoplasm » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:28 am UTC

Screw that journalist:

Around 60,000 Americans are diagnosed with celiac disease annually and a total of over 2 million have the disease, making it perhaps the most common genetic disorder in the United States (Westerberg, et al., 2006).


Link
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby dosboot » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:28 pm UTC

I've read respectable opinions about avoiding gluten even if you don't have the immune disorder. The reason a lot of people are cutting out gluten isn't because they are morons, it is because they take an active approach with their nutrition. There's more to consider than replies here seem to think. For example:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... se-is.html
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/ ... -hell.html

There isn't a large body of scientific evidence behind it though. A compelling enough fact for some people is that healthy non-industrialized cultures don't eat wheat like we do and seem to be devoid of modern degenerative diseases. Depending on the culture, what they eat instead is anything from starchy vegetables, rice, or soaked and fermented grains and legumes.

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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby netcrusher88 » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:41 pm UTC

dosboot wrote:There isn't a large body of scientific evidence behind it though. A compelling enough fact for some people is that healthy non-industrialized cultures don't eat wheat like we do and seem to be devoid of modern degenerative diseases. Depending on the culture, what they eat instead is anything from starchy vegetables, rice, or soaked and fermented grains and legumes.

That's just the thing - there isn't a large body of scientific evidence. Even the correlation is extremely weak - many non-industrialized cultures do use wheat heavily and have for millennia; for example all across the Middle East and the Indian Subcontinent there are a variety of wheat-based flatbreads that are a major part of the cuisine and culture, from roti to (what we know as) naan, as well as a variety of leavened breads. I also reject the assertion that non-industrialized cultures are devoid of modern degenerative diseases - a (I presume) shorter average lifespan and a lack of modern medical care that knows how to diagnose those "modern" diseases is a more obvious explanation for such. Finally, even if it is true, there are much stronger correlations than wheat (since that is an extremely weak correlation) - processed foods (though what that implies, I don't know), pollution, and fitness.
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dosboot
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby dosboot » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:11 pm UTC

But you are mostly making guesses and assumptions.

From what I've read:
1) The marked absence of degenerative diseases in many different traditional cultures has been documented, the first link has collected many such studies done by doctors actively looking for them in thousands of patients over a decade or more (see the tags on the right side of the page). IIRC, these cultures do not have a lower life expectancy when higher rate of early deaths are considered. The large number of degenerative diseases in the West are not confined to those over 65 by any means either (e.g., prostate cancer the US).
2) grains were traditionally soaked and fermented in all native cultures, and today we know scientific facts about why this is nutritionally helpful
3) grains were not consumed until 10,000 years ago - for most of our evolution we were not adapting to consuming grains in our diet
4) Also, according to that same link, "I'm not aware of any truly healthy traditional culture that eats wheat as a staple."

I agree there isn't an established reason for the observations about native cultures. The wheat hypothesis is unproven, but it is still a very intriguing opinion being made by respectable doctors. I encourage people to read about it and see for themselves.

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Nath
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Re: "Throwing Out the Wheat"

Postby Nath » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:55 am UTC

Cytoplasm wrote:Screw that journalist:

Around 60,000 Americans are diagnosed with celiac disease annually and a total of over 2 million have the disease, making it perhaps the most common genetic disorder in the United States (Westerberg, et al., 2006).


Link

Huh? 2 million out of 300 million is 0.67%, which is pretty close to the original article's claim of 0.75%.


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