What do you do when all's said and done?

For the serious discussion of weighty matters and worldly issues. No off-topic posts allowed.

Moderators: Azrael, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Maduyn
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:37 pm UTC

What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Maduyn » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:46 am UTC

Assumptions for this discussion are as follows:

That time is a ray it starts at one point and goes on forever.
That eventually Humans or some other form of life will be able to live forever with all needs met.
That this form of life will be able to know everything I.E. every single possible combination of sound in a 5 minute duration.

These assumptions being made what do these creatures do then?

I mean to say that if these creatures know every single possible song and have been everywhere in the universe what do you do then?

In essence:

What do you do when all is said and done?
I was once asked why i am a pacifist.
I simply said "Because I have finally understood what it is to die"

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Diadem » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:22 am UTC

Any intelligent being necessarily has a finite brain capacity. Not only this, but his brain capacity, both in processing speed, and memory size, will be much, much smaller than the total universe.

This means that once you've done everything, you will necessarily have forgotten most of it. And you can just do it again as if it is the first time. You'll never get bored :)

But doing 'everything' is of course impossible, because many activities exclude eachother.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
Maduyn
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:37 pm UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Maduyn » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:50 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Any intelligent being necessarily has a finite brain capacity. Not only this, but his brain capacity, both in processing speed, and memory size, will be much, much smaller than the total universe.

This means that once you've done everything, you will necessarily have forgotten most of it. And you can just do it again as if it is the first time. You'll never get bored :)


For the sake of the argument lets say they have neural implants. Also perfect knowledge is not what I meant for this is in itself impossible but just because i cant know where an object is i can know generally where the object is. Just because i do not know where a photon in my room is or where it is going does not mean it is on mars. I know that it must be somewhere in my room. Even if it was transported by quantum to somewhere else i still know it exists which restricts its location.

Diadem wrote:But doing 'everything' is of course impossible, because many activities exclude each other.


In an infinite time frame this may not be true and even if it is you've still done all you can do.
I was once asked why i am a pacifist.
I simply said "Because I have finally understood what it is to die"

User avatar
iblis.raeb
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:36 am UTC
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby iblis.raeb » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:16 am UTC

Like the above poster has implied and paraphrasing a Neil deGrasse Tyson quote: "As my island of knowledge grows so does my perimeter of ignorance".
"The Graal... is a weight so heavy that creatures in the bondage of sin are unable to move it from its place."
─Wolfram von Eschenbach, Parzival, IX, 477

User avatar
Maduyn
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:37 pm UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Maduyn » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:21 am UTC

So from what i understand we will just sit around looking bored forever in my incarnation of this question. Please correct me if I am misinterpreting this.

And please forgive me but i do not understand your comment about throwing logic out the window. If possible I wish to correct this ignorance of mine.
I was once asked why i am a pacifist.
I simply said "Because I have finally understood what it is to die"

User avatar
Maduyn
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:37 pm UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Maduyn » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:56 am UTC

PhoenixEnigma wrote:Essentially, what you're proposing breaks the laws of physics (thermodynamics? Something immutable, anyways). If there's a finite amount of matter in the universe, there's a finite amount that can be used to store information. As an example, I used the board game of Go. There's more possible games to be played then there are atoms in the known universe. Something like 1080 atoms and 10170 possible games, if I'm remembering right. It seems like this isn't what you're talking about.


I seem to be confused about this. You say that their are 10170 in a game of go since we know this haven't we in some way created a way to store this information?
I see it like this; i have an equation say y = x + 2 if i wanted to i could put any value for x and find y since i have this method to find y why do i need to record all the values of y because in a way the equation of y = x + 2 has stored it for me and if i want to find y for a given x i just plug it in. I seems to me to be highly illogical to plug in all values of x and store them when i only need to access them when i have a goal in mind equating to a value of x .

if all the universe could be put into the form of equations then those equations store the data for us and by merely plugging numbers into them we can find the outcome. Please explain to me the faults in this logic.
I was once asked why i am a pacifist.
I simply said "Because I have finally understood what it is to die"

nitePhyyre
Posts: 1280
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:31 am UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby nitePhyyre » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:31 am UTC

Eventually there will only be one thing left to do. Reverse entropy.

For a more elaborate response, I suggest you read the short story The Last Question by Isaac Asimov. I think it is a fairly definitive answer as too what human kind will be doing into the next several eons. It will definitely be a better read than the "infinite knowledge requires infinite storage space" answers you've received so far.
sourmìlk wrote:Monopolies are not when a single company controls the market for a single product.

You don't become great by trying to be great. You become great by wanting to do something, and then doing it so hard you become great in the process.

User avatar
lulzfish
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:17 am UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby lulzfish » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:59 pm UTC

Maduyn wrote:if all the universe could be put into the form of equations then those equations store the data for us and by merely plugging numbers into them we can find the outcome. Please explain to me the faults in this logic.


1. We don't have the numbers to be plugged in, and probably never will, because the sensors needed to record them would have to impossibly accurate (down to the Planck length or whatever)
2. What kind of computer are you going to use to "find the outcome", when we're talking about 30+ orders of magnitude just between the Planck units and a millimeter? (Assuming Wikipedia isn't lying)
3. There is ALWAYS imprecision. Any slight error in sensors will eventually build up and cause the simulation to become totally wrong. And error is inevitable once you get down the quantum scale. Even taking a measurement will automatically make that measurement wrong, because the probe takes energy from a particle and slows it down or something.

You seem to be confusing understanding with knowledge, or something.

User avatar
Maduyn
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:37 pm UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Maduyn » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:40 pm UTC

You say their is always imprecision this is true but just as an example DNA evidence has a margin of error this too is true but it does not void its ability to be effective.

Saying that perfection is impossible is true but this does not in my mind prevent the species from knowing everything because if perfection is impossible then this data cannot be known therefore it falls outside of everything.

It in effect is nullified by probability
I was once asked why i am a pacifist.
I simply said "Because I have finally understood what it is to die"

Game_boy
Posts: 1314
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Game_boy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:26 pm UTC

"Just because i do not know where a photon in my room is or where it is going does not mean it is on mars."

Yes, it does. As soon as you stop observing something, where-it-can-be expands at the speed of light. There is a small but nonzero probability it is on Mars. Or is an otter. Or has vanished entirely.

Go and read some quantum mechanics textbooks. Particularly concerning Bell's inequality, and the uncertainty principle. You cannot ever be certain about data you are not observing.
The Reaper wrote:Evolution is a really really really long run-on sentence.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Diadem » Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:45 pm UTC

Maduyn wrote:
Diadem wrote:Any intelligent being necessarily has a finite brain capacity. Not only this, but his brain capacity, both in processing speed, and memory size, will be much, much smaller than the total universe.

This means that once you've done everything, you will necessarily have forgotten most of it. And you can just do it again as if it is the first time. You'll never get bored :)


For the sake of the argument lets say they have neural implants.

Unless your neural implants operate by magic, this is not a solution at all. My argument remains unchanged.

Even the theoretically fastest supercomputer possible to build has a finite memory capacity, and its capacity will be much smaller than the total number of things that there are to know in the universe. So once this supercomputer has learned everything, it will have forgotten most of it, and can start again. Same story for doing stuff.

Also perfect knowledge is not what I meant for this is in itself impossible but just because i cant know where an object is i can know generally where the object is. Just because i do not know where a photon in my room is or where it is going does not mean it is on mars. I know that it must be somewhere in my room. Even if it was transported by quantum to somewhere else i still know it exists which restricts its location.

Even assuming that you only desire imprecise knowledge about the state of the universe my statement holds. The total amount of knowable things is many orders of magnitude (orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude I'd say. Probably infinite, in fact) bigger than the amount of things you can know.

Diadem wrote:But doing 'everything' is of course impossible, because many activities exclude each other.

In an infinite time frame this may not be true and even if it is you've still done all you can do.

Well there most likely is not an infinite timeframe. But even if there is, it is not true. For example you can never lose your virginity with two different (wo)men.

(Though admittedly you could of course remove every memory and every physical trace left on your body of every sexual encounter you ever had, and then experience sex as if it truly was the first time. But you don't gain much by that, since you still wouldn't be able to hold both experiences in your memory at the same time).
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
Fuzzy_Wuzzy.bmp
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:32 pm UTC
Location: Screaming vacuum of space

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Fuzzy_Wuzzy.bmp » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:51 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:(Though admittedly you could of course remove every memory and every physical trace left on your body of every sexual encounter you ever had, and then experience sex as if it truly was the first time. But you don't gain much by that, since you still wouldn't be able to hold both experiences in your memory at the same time).


But you could store the memory of your first loss of virginity on an external medium, erase it from your mind, get busy with some chick, and then update your memory from that external medium (I am of course thinking of a USB stick). Other than that this whole discussion is really boring, but carry on.

User avatar
iblis.raeb
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:36 am UTC
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby iblis.raeb » Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:39 pm UTC

PhoenixEnigma wrote:In a truly infinite universe, there's an infinite number of things to do.

What about in a fractal universe made of infinite time with finite knowledge

PhoenixEnigma wrote:The game tree for Go, for instance, is much much larger then the number of atoms in the universe.

What's this nonsense about?
"The Graal... is a weight so heavy that creatures in the bondage of sin are unable to move it from its place."
─Wolfram von Eschenbach, Parzival, IX, 477

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Diadem » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:53 am UTC

Fuzzy_Wuzzy.bmp wrote:
Diadem wrote:(Though admittedly you could of course remove every memory and every physical trace left on your body of every sexual encounter you ever had, and then experience sex as if it truly was the first time. But you don't gain much by that, since you still wouldn't be able to hold both experiences in your memory at the same time).


But you could store the memory of your first loss of virginity on an external medium, erase it from your mind, get busy with some chick, and then update your memory from that external medium (I am of course thinking of a USB stick). Other than that this whole discussion is really boring, but carry on.

I hadn't thought of that. What an awesome idea. You win an internets.

iblis.raeb wrote:
PhoenixEnigma wrote:In a truly infinite universe, there's an infinite number of things to do.

What about in a fractal universe made of infinite time with finite knowledge

If there's an infinite amount of time there are also an infinite amount of knowable facts. For example the precise number of photons within 1 lightyear of the sun, at any point in time. Since there's an infinite amount of time, this is an infinite number of facts.

The total amount of knowledge in the universe can very well be finite (it has to be finite, if hte universe is finite). But there is still an infinite number of knowable things. So you can never know everythign, and you will necessarily start forgetting things after a while. Allowing you to learn them again, and never get bored.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
iblis.raeb
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:36 am UTC
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby iblis.raeb » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:25 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
iblis.raeb wrote:
PhoenixEnigma wrote:In a truly infinite universe, there's an infinite number of things to do.

What about in a fractal universe made of infinite time with finite knowledge

But there is still an infinite number of knowable things. So you can never know everythign, and you will necessarily start forgetting things after a while. Allowing you to learn them again, and never get bored.

OK, fair enough, there is always the knowledge of the universe's current age; however, this knowledge does not exactly remedy boredom since any current sum can be reduced to a more useful and interesting formulaic derivative.

Memory limitation does not equate to finite knowledge since we should (IMO) refer to available knowledge rather acquired knowledge when comparing finite and infinite time with finite and infinite knowledge with creatures able to acquire all the knowledge available.
Last edited by iblis.raeb on Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:30 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
"The Graal... is a weight so heavy that creatures in the bondage of sin are unable to move it from its place."
─Wolfram von Eschenbach, Parzival, IX, 477

Technical Ben
Posts: 2986
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 10:42 pm UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Technical Ben » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:28 pm UTC

I like the argument going on here. And I love the mathematical approach the a mainly philosophical question. And I totally agree you will never run out of things to do! A great example is in movies/writing. (Although I don't have a mathematical proof, I am sure someone can make one here) the number of stories you could write is probably infinite. I'm sure with infinite time as well, you could remake the first 3 star wars films to actually be good! :D

I just hope not too many people will brick wall the argument and shout "no you get bored!!!"
It's all physics and stamp collecting.
It's not a particle or a wave. It's just an exchange.

User avatar
Gelsamel
Lame and emo
Posts: 8237
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:49 am UTC
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Gelsamel » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:07 pm UTC

I would recreate the universe to be better than it is now.

But that's just me.
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

User avatar
mmmcannibalism
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:16 am UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:10 am UTC

I think I would invent board games along with a few other people and then decide which was the most interesting

Or, invent games that involve fog of war but no other luck factor and play them for all eternity.
Izawwlgood wrote:I for one would happily live on an island as a fuzzy seal-human.

Oregonaut wrote:Damn fetuses and their terroist plots.

User avatar
iblis.raeb
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:36 am UTC
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby iblis.raeb » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:30 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:I would recreate the universe to be better than it is now.

But that's just me.

That's pretty much what we are doing already... epitomised in evolution.
"The Graal... is a weight so heavy that creatures in the bondage of sin are unable to move it from its place."
─Wolfram von Eschenbach, Parzival, IX, 477

dosboot
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:26 am UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby dosboot » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:46 am UTC

The average person here has probably played more tic-tac-toe games than there are possible tic-tac-toe games. How many people have seen episodes of their favorite TV series countless times? If there is nothing new to experience it won't be so bad.

Some people spend the majority of their free time doing an activity like running or knitting that does not have much daily variation, and in general I dare say humans crave routines and wouldn't think too much about doing them for eternity.

User avatar
Fin Archangel
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 12:42 am UTC
Location: in ur base, killing ur doodz
Contact:

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Fin Archangel » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:48 am UTC

dosboot wrote:The average person here has probably played more tic-tac-toe games than there are possible tic-tac-toe games. How many people have seen episodes of their favorite TV series countless times? If there is nothing new to experience it won't be so bad.

Some people spend the majority of their free time doing an activity like running or knitting that does not have much daily variation, and in general I dare say humans crave routines and wouldn't think too much about doing them for eternity.


But there's a limit to that. Sure, living life as you are might get you through the first, oh, hundred years, or maybe even a couple hundred, but when there is absolutely nothing new at all, anywhere, because anything that can possibly be done has already been done (or will have, since you live forever) then there really isn't too much point of living at all.

That's also disregarding emotion, frustration, etc.

When all's said and done, the world is stagnant. We're basically living Tuck Everlasting.
Spoiler:
Image

dosboot
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:26 am UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby dosboot » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:25 pm UTC

By that cliched logic you'll get bored of existentialism then. Does experiencing everything eventually include not feeling existential?

Arete
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:13 am UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Arete » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:44 pm UTC

iblis.raeb wrote:What's this nonsense about?



http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/hbaker/hakmem/proposed.html


Calc'd in 1972, before Deep Blue etc.

User avatar
Fin Archangel
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 12:42 am UTC
Location: in ur base, killing ur doodz
Contact:

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Fin Archangel » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:47 pm UTC

dosboot wrote:By that cliched logic you'll get bored of existentialism then. Does experiencing everything eventually include not feeling existential?


Can you stay sane that long?
Spoiler:
Image

User avatar
iblis.raeb
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:36 am UTC
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby iblis.raeb » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:02 am UTC

Arete wrote:
iblis.raeb wrote:What's this nonsense about?



http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/hbaker/hakmem/proposed.html


Calc'd in 1972, before Deep Blue etc.

Besides deriving the mathematics, the triviality just seems like an inconsequential observation.

Anyway, screw Go... there are more possible positions for the atoms in the universe.
"The Graal... is a weight so heavy that creatures in the bondage of sin are unable to move it from its place."
─Wolfram von Eschenbach, Parzival, IX, 477

Nem
Posts: 336
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:19 pm UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Nem » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:27 am UTC

Maduyn wrote:What do you do when all is said and done?


Calculate Pi?

If you knew everything I'd imagine you'd know enough to be able to limit your own access to that knowledge for a while but if that's not the case there's always drugs or some more direct stimulation of bits of the brain, certain things done to the VTA with electrodes are meant to be quite pleasurable.

Arete
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:13 am UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Arete » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:46 am UTC

iblis.raeb wrote:Besides deriving the mathematics, the triviality just seems like an inconsequential observation.

Anyway, screw Go... there are more possible positions for the atoms in the universe.



You asked a question.

43 seconds of my life was devoted to giving you an answer - which you could have answered yourself, instead of logging in and typing "What nonsense is this?".

Expand this exponentially, and you'll see an answer to the OP's question.


[and btw, Go is an awesome / fun game - I've had the privilege to know some serious players - outside of Asia, which means they aren't actually that serious in dan /kyu rankings - and the experience of losing was always enjoyable. Apparently I have an 'intuitional playstyle' that is weird to play against]

User avatar
iblis.raeb
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:36 am UTC
Location: Victoria, Australia

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby iblis.raeb » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:53 am UTC

Arete wrote:
iblis.raeb wrote:[and btw, Go is an awesome / fun game - I've had the privilege to know some serious players - outside of Asia, which means they aren't actually that serious in dan /kyu rankings - and the experience of losing was always enjoyable. Apparently I have an 'intuitional playstyle' that is weird to play against]

I don't play Go... my response would not have been so acidic if I appreciated the game as you do.

I do very much appreciate your attention to my question, thank you‼
"The Graal... is a weight so heavy that creatures in the bondage of sin are unable to move it from its place."
─Wolfram von Eschenbach, Parzival, IX, 477

Woegjiub
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:22 pm UTC

Re: What do you do when all's said and done?

Postby Woegjiub » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:59 am UTC

So basically, if one were in a position similar to that of a member of the Q continuum, what would one do?

As was stated above, attempt to stop the universe from dying, like in Asimov's brilliant short story.
If that had been accomplished, then one can always invent new things to do, and interact with other beings.
Personally, I feel that knowing everything would remove the drive from humanity - we wouldn't have anything to strive for, we would then stagnate, and become a shadow of our former selves.


Return to “Serious Business”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 11 guests