Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

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Patman
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Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Patman » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:27 pm UTC

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a style of submission wrestling. It's a bit like Judo and freestyle wrestling.
The Abu Dhabi Pro is a massive Brazilian Jiu Jitsu competition in April. Trials are on 22nd of November. The winner of the trials gets flown to Abu Dhabi to compete against the best in the world. This is a major competition and the first time I've considered losing weight for a comp.

My strategy is to be as much muscle as I can be within a given weight bracket by losing some of my fat.
I'm currently, 174cm 76kg. I'm about 21% fat according to mystical electric scales. I will be weighed in a heavy cotton gi (~2kg) right before I fight.
The brackets are either 68kg - 73kg, or 73kg - 78kg. I think it would be best to cut the 5 Kilograms and sit within the 68-73 range.

Currently I run a fair bit, 30-40km per week (1x 5km race a week in a harriers series). And grapple(Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) 3-4 times a week for about 2~1.5 hours at a time.

My questions are:
1) Is my strategy sound, should I bother losing the weight?
2) Can I lose the weight in time?
3) How should I lose this weight?

shocklocks
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby shocklocks » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:23 pm UTC

1) If you lost 5kg of fat you'd be at 15% body fat. Males athletes can be at as low as 5-8% comfortably. If you've been comfortably doing previous competetions at 76 your ideal might be to keep that weight but aim for 8-10% body fat and put more muscle on. Obviously this won't work for this particular fight so yeah your best bet is to lose the weight. Don't be suprised if some of the weight you lose is muscle mass though.

2 + 3) You absolutely can. How hard it will be will depend on how clean your diet is/how hydrated you are etc. What are you currently eating? If you really are 21% fat with that much cardio you could probably do alot by tightening up your diet. I auctualy have a book geared specificly at nutrition for grapplers that i picked up when I started MMA. If you post what you're eating day to day i'll do my best to give some advice/ paste a couple sample diets for someone about your weight wanting to drop a few pounds.

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Patman
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Patman » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:22 am UTC

Cheers for the reply Shocklocks.
I'm vegetarian and eat mainly carbohydrates.

Yesterday I ran a gentle 7 km and grappled intensely for ~1.5 hours
Yesterday I ate:
1 Cream cheese bagel
1 Affogato
1 Falafel kebab
500 ml beer
4 long blacks
1 litre of water
1/2 can of baked beans
2 slices of wholemeal toast
2 eggs
1 cup of boiled pumpkin/spinach and fennel seeds
1 apple
1 banana
20 Grams of Jaffas

Today I ran a hard 5km, no grappling.
Today I have had:
1x almond Croissant
1x berry Danish
1/4 a sour-dough baguette
100 grams of cheese
200 grams of pumpkin, sprouts and quinoa
40 grams of belgium chocolate
4 long blacks
1/2 cup of milk
1.75 litres of water
500ml Beer ( Maybe triple this, the night is young... )
[projected for the rest of this evening:
500 Grams of stir fried silverbeat, red cabbage, broad beans
2 eggs]

shocklocks
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby shocklocks » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:39 am UTC

You don't auctualy seem to be eating that much. I'm a little suprised you're at 20% body fat with the ammount of running you do tbh. Unfortunately the sample diets I have include quite abit of lean meat so they won't be much help. I would however suggest that you up your fat intake considerably(up to about 30% of your total diet with 10%saturated, 10% monosaturated and 10% polyunsaturated.) This wouldn't be hard to do as a vegetarian. You'd just need to eat a couple more eggs a day, start supplamenting with 6-10grams of fish oil caps and adding some extra virgin olive oil to your diet.

On top of that it doesn't seem like you're getting very much protein. As well as the eggs/beans you might want to look at including some low fat yogurt/cottage cheese and some whey/casein supplaments. Your overall diet should be anywhere from 20-40% protein. Obviously with the ammount of running /grappling you do it'l probably be at the lower end. You should work up at consistent diet for the next 5weeks and figure out how many calories it contains as well as the percentage of protein/fat/carbs. You should plan to eat every 2-3hours. Include lean protein with each meal and try and keep the carbs within and during 2-3hours of your exercise and seperate from the fats. Ie you meals should be Protein-carb during this time and protein-fat during the rest of the day.

I'd also reccomend upping your water intake to closer to 4litres a day(trust me if you keep a water bottle with you at all times you'll be suprised how much you drink.) And maybe replacing the bagels/croissants with something a bit healthier. Oats possibly? Als if you can try and replace 1-2 of the coffees with green tea? Lastly as much of a hypocrite as I feel like saying this you'd probably do better off dropping the beer. Not only is it packed with empty carbs but the alcohol content means you're likely to store it all as fat. If theres a social occasion that you'd feel rude not drinking at break out the straight spirits or have some red wine instead :p.

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Patman
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Patman » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:54 am UTC

More hard running the last couple days.
Wednesday: 6km lamppost fartleks, 40min intense grappling
Thursday: 1x 5 km 1/2 flat, 1/2 hill + 316 steps, 1 hour BJJ drills & 1 hour moderate-intense grappling

Eating more oats, drinking more milk and less coffee. I'll cut down on beer this weekend (which bites, I work 1min away from a boutique beers bar.)

Why should I increase my fat intake, what's the idea behind this? And four litres of water is HUGE, why so much?
I eat a lot of sour dough breads and a flax,avacado and olive oil blend together but this is the opposite to your recommendation.

shocklocks
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby shocklocks » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:12 pm UTC

Why should I increase my fat intake, what's the idea behind this?

It's hard to answer that properly without knowing how good your knowledge is(treat that as a disclaimer if anything I say is something you already knew and are offended i asumed you wouldn't know:P.)

Eating fat doesn't make your body store fat. Dietery fat is nothing but an energy source just the same as carbs and protein are. The one main difference is that is alot denser. 1gram of fat is 9calories compared with 4calories for a gram of protein/carbs. One of the big reasons people gain weight/fail at losing weight is because they don't understand this. They think they need to cut fat out of their diet in order to lose weight. That causes 2things to happen:

1) They tend to be hungrier/find it harder to stick to their diet. Fat/fibre are the two main things that keep you sated. Since most people with the fat is bad for you mentality also generally eat alot of white carbs/don't get enough fibre they're likely to find it hard to stay full for very long.

2) Without practically starving themselves they don't lose weight. If you arn't providing your body with a healthy amount of fats it goes into a sort of starvation mode where it starts trying to waste as little energy as it can does it's best to retain as much as it can from food as bodyfat. Not only is this bad for losing weight but it's not good for your brain or your athletic performance. On top of this the fat tends to replaced with carbohydrates. When you eat carbohydrates your body creates an insulin spike. Insulin is a hormone which among other things increases the lilklihood of the food you're eating being stored as fat. This is more true for the more processed carbs white rice/pasta bread etc, less so for wholegrains and not so much for most vegetables.

I'm sorry for the simplicity there, my knowledge on the subject is more on the practical side. Not so much the theory behind it. I'd check out some of these articles http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/index.htm if you wanted a more indepth explanation why.

And four litres of water is HUGE, why so much?

4litres of water only seems like alot because you arnt used to drinking that much currently. I gurantee if you keep a full water bottle with you at all times of the day you'll start drinking alot more. The reason for it is that not drinking enough causes the body to retain water meaning extra weight. 1litre of water is nowhere near enough for someone who does as much cardio as you.

I eat a lot of sour dough breads and a flax,avacado and olive oil blend together but this is the opposite to your recommendation.

As I brought up earlier. It's the insulin response from eating carboyhdrates that make the body more likely to store fat. Because of this fats are usually better tolerated seperately and a few hours apart from most carbohydrates with the exception of most vegetables. 1 protein-carb-fat meal isn't ideal but it isn't the end of the world. The main issue i'd have with that meal is that it's lacking in protein which is essential for every meal.

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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby poohat » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:28 pm UTC

Assuming the weigh-in is more than a few days before the fight, its pretty standard to just drop as much water weight as possible, then put it back on the next day. Google for carb depletion and dehydration methods, you dont need to actually lose 5kg of fat. Most fighters will weigh a lot more in the ring than they did at the weigh-in, because of water.

You should _really_ be asking your coach or an experienced fighter what the best way to do this is, because you dont want to fuck up your endurance performance by running a needless calorie deficit in the weeks leading up to the competition, go ask at the sherdog forums where people do this all the time.

I'm vegetarian and eat mainly carbohydrates.
your diet is complete 100% shit, eat a lot more protein if you dont want to lose muscle. Also I hope youre weight training.

edit: when is the weigh-in? If its the 22nd of November then you should really get serious, stop eating crap like chocolate/beer and actually put some effort into it. If its in April then you have more leeway obviosuly.

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Solt
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Solt » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:42 am UTC

NO BEER. Honestly you gotta choose between drinking pure carbs and being in peak physical shape. One or the other. Also cut out your excess carbs- no enriched (white) grains, only whole grains. Obviously carbs ARE necessary for intensive workouts, but since you need to burn fat, you want your body to go there to get its energy during these workouts. Don't forget to start eating carbs again come competition time, and before grappling.

Also, you need more protein or you will lose muscle mass with your fat. Whey protein comes in powder form, can be mixed with water to create a shake, and is plant-derived.
"Welding was faster, cheaper and, in theory,
produced a more reliable product. But sailors do
not float on theory, and the welded tankers had a
most annoying habit of splitting in two."
-J.W. Morris

Victoria Maddison
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Victoria Maddison » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:57 am UTC

Solt wrote:Whey protein comes in powder form, can be mixed with water to create a shake, and is plant-derived.

Whey is byproduct of milk processing.

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Solt
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Solt » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:59 am UTC

Victoria Maddison wrote:
Solt wrote:Whey protein comes in powder form, can be mixed with water to create a shake, and is plant-derived.

Whey is byproduct of milk processing.


Oh. Well it's a good thing he drinks milk then.
"Welding was faster, cheaper and, in theory,

produced a more reliable product. But sailors do

not float on theory, and the welded tankers had a

most annoying habit of splitting in two."

-J.W. Morris

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Patman
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Patman » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:42 am UTC

Alright already, I'll ditch those processed carbs and no beer/alcohol. Whoopee.
I've been drinking a fair bit more milk as well. About 1-2 litres depending on my workouts (running, grappling).
The chocolate is a purely pre-race pleasure measure on Tuesdays and it helps a mother trucking tonne.
I'll hit the milk (5.8% protein), eggs, yoghurt and stick with the quinoa and oats as far as carbs go and stacks of veges as per always.
poohat wrote:Also I hope youre weight training.
Nope. I'm not adverse to body weight exercises but don't like compromising the quality of my grappling sessions by being freaking knackered. BJJ is a rather physical sport by itself and a lot of my partners are ~100 kg. Pressing and squating are not very similar to anything I do in grappling either, so what would be recommended as far as weight training goes?

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Nath
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Nath » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:03 pm UTC

Patman wrote:Nope. I'm not adverse to body weight exercises but don't like compromising the quality of my grappling sessions by being freaking knackered. BJJ is a rather physical sport by itself and a lot of my partners are ~100 kg. Pressing and squating are not very similar to anything I do in grappling either, so what would be recommended as far as weight training goes?

Here's a thread about strength training for grappling. A two day a week workout hasn't been fatiguing me enough to noticeably hurt my technique, and I think the strength increase is starting to help me on the mat. (That said, I wouldn't want to do serious strength training in the few days before a competition.)

Squat and press-type motions (and power cleans) are pretty useful for the takedowns -- more so in judo and SAMBO than BJJ, I imagine -- but the point of these sorts of exercises is to make you stronger even if you aren't performing those exact motions. I find leg strength pretty darn useful even once we go to the ground, for sweeps, escapes etc.

One other exercise not mentioned in that thread is the Turkish get up. I've recently started doing a few of these on my grappling days, after practice. It's probably the most groundwork-relevant exercise I've done. It's not as good a strength builder as squats or deadlifts, but it still seems like a useful drill.

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Solt
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Solt » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:58 am UTC

Patman wrote:I've been drinking a fair bit more milk as well.


This is good for the protein and nutrients available in milk and is certainly better than some of the other stuff you were on, but keep in mind milk has calories too. Go for the low fat milk at least while you are trying to lose the weight.
"Welding was faster, cheaper and, in theory,

produced a more reliable product. But sailors do

not float on theory, and the welded tankers had a

most annoying habit of splitting in two."

-J.W. Morris

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Patman
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Patman » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:00 am UTC

Solt wrote:
Patman wrote:I've been drinking a fair bit more milk as well.


This is good for the protein and nutrients available in milk and is certainly better than some of the other stuff you were on, but keep in mind milk has calories too. Go for the low fat milk at least while you are trying to lose the weight.

Am too.

shocklocks
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby shocklocks » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:33 am UTC

so what would be recommended as far as weight training goes?


Any exercise program is going to take 2-4weeks to get used to. I wouldn't recommend changing what you're doing exercise wise until after the competition is done. After that though if you're serious about pushing yourself a little weight training would be a definite asset. Assuming you're pretty experienced/used to regular grappling you'd actually be pretty surprised how well you'd be able to cope with strength training. The main thing would be adopting some of things here about your diet. A proper diet with adequate protein and omega 3(fish oil), omega 9(olive oil) would do wonders for your recovery. I'd suggest starting strength, it's fun and it works. You may have to get rid of / cut back on the running though at least for a while.


Pressing and squating are not very similar to anything I do in grappling either,


You're underestimating the benefits of proper strength training it's extremely important for grappling. Not only will the extra strength be invaluable in take downs, sprawls and your ground work but a program like starting strength done right will change your body composition dramatically. You will lose fat which you don't need and preserve muscle giving you a leaner frame. Once you've developed a good base strength /maxed out your linear gains you'd even be able to look a mixed program like Crossfit that would train not only strength but cardio, endurance and speed.

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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby waltwhitmanheadedbat » Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:15 am UTC

My first question would have to inquire about the particulars of your vegetarianism. Is it for religious, ethical, or ideological reasons? Or health?

I'd recommend reducing carbohydrate drastically for the advantages argued by me in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=33408

At 21% body fat, it's reasonably easy to lose weight with carbohydrate restriction, especially with the amount of physical activity you do. I ask about your vegetarianism because it's much, much easier to eat this way with meat; but it can be done either way.

tl;dr: I endorse shocklocks' earlier recommendations.

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Patman
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Patman » Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:32 am UTC

waltwhitmanheadedbat wrote:My first question would have to inquire about the particulars of your vegetarianism. Is it for religious, ethical, or ideological reasons? Or health?
Ethical reasons.

I have drastically reduced my carbohydrate and increased protein and fat intake. The LSA, nuts, cheese and eggs are all quite fatty. Lots of low fat yoghurt, milk and no budvar.

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WholeLottaSean
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby WholeLottaSean » Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:47 pm UTC

Cottage cheese is another thing to look into eating. Its leaner than yoghurt

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Patman
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Patman » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:05 am UTC

I didn't lose any weight, but I felt strong for my competition.
My diet had been predominantly protein and fats.

Competition was a huge let down. The entry fees were set too high making it one of the smallest competitions I have seen. Despite all the drama the 'hardouts' were all in attendance making the competition level very high. The open was first up, presumably to ensure all fighters were fresh. Turns out they could only afford 2 fully paid tickets and accommodation to Abu Dhabi, one each for the winners of the open weight white-blue belt category and the open weight purple-brown-black belt division.

Here's my take on my matches:

Open Weight Blue
We had the open weight first which didn't suit me as I didn't really find my 'groove' in time. First match was against a grisly Aucklander named King from GB (Peaces' flying armbarring rival from his first comp), he had a tonne of spirit. After several sweeps and a sub attempt or two I outscored the fellow by five points.

In my second bout I battled the comp favorite Vance from GB (who eventually placed second after his team mate) We went the full 6 minutes, he passed my guard like nobody's business, I was replacing it just the same. But the rules (and fairly so) give points for passes and not regaining guard/escaping. By the end I was dominated on points 18-0. I was rolling too mentally calm and too physically tense. Not my best performance.

<78Kg Blue
As for my weight division, this was quite small; four players total. I only had two bouts. I was relaxed and enjoying myself by this time, playing my game, smooth and flowing. I beat a GB munter first up after he exploded out of two armbars and an x-guard sweep, he passed my guard, I regained guard and swept him, passing his guard straight into a deep baseball bat/clock choke.

The final match was against a fiery Filipino Raymond who was rather technical and was playing a tricky but sloppy de-la-riva guard (compared with Thomas and Fernando anyway.) Shut this down with knee control to consolidate a side control, I finally extracted a near side armbar. Both of these matches were quite easy and finished quite quickly. Winning this division I won gold and qualified for Abu Dhabi.

tl;dr;
Lost the open weight class to the competition favourite. Won both my fights in the <78kg weight class, took home faux gold medallion. Don't get free tickets.

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BlackSails
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby BlackSails » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:02 pm UTC

Was this worlds?

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Patman
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Patman » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:16 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Was this worlds?

Trials for the Abu Dhabi Pro Jiu Jitsu World Cup

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Nath
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Nath » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:36 am UTC

Sounds like a pretty respectable performance; nicely done on the 78kg blue.

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BlackSails
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby BlackSails » Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:12 am UTC

Speaking of BJJ, Fabio Gurgel came to my school over the weekend.

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Patman
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Re: Grappling comp in 5 Weeks, must lose 5 kilograms.

Postby Patman » Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:45 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:Speaking of BJJ, Fabio Gurgel came to my school over the weekend.

Luckeee
Fabio is a total legend, coaches Marcelo Garcia, the best grappler on the planet! We had Rigan over recently, dude's a breathing BJJ encyclopaedia.


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