Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmets?

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Griffin
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Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmets?

Postby Griffin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:42 pm UTC

I've been trying to find out more information about this, and while I have yet to find anything definitive it seems like head injuries are one of the biggest dangers in a car, and helmets can do a lot to prevent them. If anything, what I've seen from the rather crappy statistics I've dredged up seems to indicate you are more in danger of suffering a head injury in a car than you are in a bike (or at the very least, that car drivers wearing helmets would save a lot more lives than bike drivers wearing them, which is obviously a very different statemetn and based on scale). I do know car accidents are the leading cause of death in most parts of the world, so it seems like anything that makes that safer would be a good thing.

So, what do people here think? Do you know anyone who does this? Is it a good idea? Is there a noticeable increase in safety?
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:05 pm UTC

What kind of helmet are you talking? Would it obscure vision or cover the ears? If so, it might be illegal, regardless of whether or not it increases safety. I would suspect that it does increase safety.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Ulc » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:37 pm UTC

Griffin wrote: I do know car accidents are the leading cause of death in most parts of the world, so it seems like anything that makes that safer would be a good thing.


What?

I'm fairly sure that is entirely wrong. In fact, it IS wrong.

And I very much doubt that you can find any country in the world where it even makes the top five.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:51 pm UTC

Certainly leading cause of accidental death:
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby JoeKhol » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:36 pm UTC

I suspect a major factor would be whether the victims in cars were wearing seatbelts. Without a seatbelt, I can see head injury being an issue in a crash but with seatbelts, I would have thought much less so.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:59 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:
Griffin wrote: I do know car accidents are the leading cause of death in most parts of the world, so it seems like anything that makes that safer would be a good thing.


What?

I'm fairly sure that is entirely wrong. In fact, it IS wrong.

And I very much doubt that you can find any country in the world where it even makes the top five.

In the age group of 1-35, it is the leading cause of death in the U.S.; yes, the language was technically inaccurate. The point was that it is a serious problem.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Griffin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:41 pm UTC

Yeah, I meant accidental deaths. I'm well aware that the death toll of disease is generally a lot worse.

Even barring that, the point was that its a pretty major issue, where minor changes could make a big difference.

As to seatbelts:
From what I understand, seat belts help a lot in head on collisions, but even there the risk is from the head cracking against the side window (a great improvement over flying through the front windshield, I'm sure). In non-head on accidents that is, of course, a lot more likely.

Роберт wrote:What kind of helmet are you talking? Would it obscure vision or cover the ears? If so, it might be illegal, regardless of whether or not it increases safety. I would suspect that it does increase safety.

Wasn't that limiting vision argument, like, completely squashed with the mandatory helmet laws on motorcycles, with all that evidence that they don't cause problems if they are halfway decent helmets? And if that IS illegal, are you just not allowed to ride motorcycles in those places (since motorcycle helmet laws are pretty much everywhere now)?
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby SummerGlauFan » Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:58 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:
As to seatbelts:
From what I understand, seat belts help a lot in head on collisions, but even there the risk is from the head cracking against the side window (a great improvement over flying through the front windshield, I'm sure). In non-head on accidents that is, of course, a lot more likely.



That's what side-impact airbags are for. Not to mention, the majority of non-trivial injuries are likely to be neck injuries.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby iop » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:27 pm UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:
Griffin wrote:
As to seatbelts:
From what I understand, seat belts help a lot in head on collisions, but even there the risk is from the head cracking against the side window (a great improvement over flying through the front windshield, I'm sure). In non-head on accidents that is, of course, a lot more likely.



That's what side-impact airbags are for. Not to mention, the majority of non-trivial injuries are likely to be neck injuries.

And neck injuries get worse if you wear a helmet, since there's much more weight that accelerates.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:33 pm UTC

How about neck braces then?
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Coffee Stain » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:38 pm UTC

Full. Body. Armor.

More seriously, there's a good chance that the reason that there isn't particularly widespread study into the increased safety of helmets in automobiles is that researchers don't expect that there would be a significant enough improvement to account for the reasons not to wear one. People, myself definitely included, place a non-infinite dollar amount on the value of their lives. There is a reason that I don't own a vehicle that costs twice my current vehicle but offers twice the safety, and it's that the increased cost is not sufficiently offset by the decreased chance that I'll die. I'm unable to find the episode or the study, but I remember an issue of This American Life which suggested that on average people value their own lives at 7 million dollars, a number gleaned from the cost-benefit choices they make. A person who values there life at the average would pay about $7,000 to increase their life expectancy by 1 month. Thus, a $70 helmet (without the non-zero cost assigned to the inconvenience of wearing it) would have to increase your life expectancy by a third of a day, after adding in the extra accidents from obscured vision and the like. For comparison (using fuzzy math and some 2009 stats; I assume that every death decreases life expectancy of that person by 40 years), completely forgoing ever being in a vehicle adds about 1.6 days to your life.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby morriswalters » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:40 pm UTC

If the car can't protect you a helmet is probably wasted. I saw a picture of an acquaintances car after she rolled it doing 75mph. Mercedes S class I believe. The car was totaled but she survived, injured.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Роберт » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:59 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:
Роберт wrote:What kind of helmet are you talking? Would it obscure vision or cover the ears? If so, it might be illegal, regardless of whether or not it increases safety. I would suspect that it does increase safety.

Wasn't that limiting vision argument, like, completely squashed with the mandatory helmet laws on motorcycles, with all that evidence that they don't cause problems if they are halfway decent helmets? And if that IS illegal, are you just not allowed to ride motorcycles in those places (since motorcycle helmet laws are pretty much everywhere now)?

You expect laws to be scientific and logical? Wearing helmets in a car has links with racing. It might be legal anyway, I'm not sure.

Anyway, I tried to Google information on it, and all I found were suggestions that some states had laws against covering both ears etc.

I think the study would be tough to do. Could you prove the decrease in head injuries is worth the increase in accidents and neck injuries? Probably not enough to convince people to do so. Heck, lots of people don't even wear seatbelts. However, if it is legal and you want too, it might be worth wearing a helmet yourself, especially as a passenger.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Levelheaded » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:12 pm UTC

There is a reason that race-car drivers are required to wear helmets, and many of them wear neck / back braces.

That said, the dangers of not wearing a helmet vs. wearing a helmet in an automobile are mostly mitigated in other ways. Airbags, collapsable steering wheels / steering wheel columns, shoulder belts, side curtain airbags, etc combined do the same or a similar job as a helmet. They also have the benefit of being 'always on' and not (generally) impeding vision or hearing.

The big problem with helmets is that people are unwilling to wear them (not a great argument in itself - people said the same things about seat belts) and that they offer a marginal increase in safety while introducing other risks (neck injuries from extra mass).

It's similar to seat belts on school busses. Only a few kids a year die in school bus crashes, and most of those deadly injuries would still happen if the kids were wearing seatbelts. On the other hand, the logistics of making the kids wear the seatbelts (a bus driver is paying attention to that instead of the road) may increase the chances of an accident. There is also the non-accident related injuries that come just from having the seatbelts on the bus - kids getting smacked with the metal ends, choked by the belts, etc. Overall, there probably isn't much of a net benefit in adding seatbelts to busses.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:30 am UTC

Just an aside, does anyone else think that laws mandating the wearing of helmets/seatbelts don't make any sense whatsoever? I mean even the drug laws pretend to be based in public safety.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Lazar » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:33 am UTC

For seatbelts, I think you could make a case based on the safety of the people around you in the car. For example, an unbelted passenger in a rear seat can become a projectile and injure people in the front; likewise, an unbelted driver might lose control of the car where he otherwise could have maintained it, thus endangering the passengers.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:29 am UTC

iop wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:
Griffin wrote:
As to seatbelts:
From what I understand, seat belts help a lot in head on collisions, but even there the risk is from the head cracking against the side window (a great improvement over flying through the front windshield, I'm sure). In non-head on accidents that is, of course, a lot more likely.



That's what side-impact airbags are for. Not to mention, the majority of non-trivial injuries are likely to be neck injuries.

And neck injuries get worse if you wear a helmet, since there's much more weight that accelerates.



Isn't that exactly the reason the HANS device was invented and subsequently mandated in virtually every motorsport?

If it's good enough for formula one drivers, it's good enough for me.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:13 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:Just an aside, does anyone else think that laws mandating the wearing of helmets/seatbelts don't make any sense whatsoever? I mean even the drug laws pretend to be based in public safety.

Somewhat. They're kind of like mandating sunscreen.

While I live, helmets are mandatory for cyclists. And they wonder why our new public bike hire scheme (which does not supply helmets) is a dismal failure. :roll:
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby The_Mexican » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:18 am UTC

Wearing helmets or another other protective equipment suggested while driving a car.

Pros:
- Could save my life
Cons:
- Makes me look like an idiot
- I'm guessing most will be uncomfortable from prior experience with bike helmets
- May not save my life
- Weighty
- A nuisance to take on and off every time getting in and out of the car
- Makes me look like a complete idiot

Conclusion: I would rather take the risk than wear a thing that makes me look like an idiot, is uncomfortable, and may or may not save my life anyway.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:23 am UTC

Lazar wrote:For seatbelts, I think you could make a case based on the safety of the people around you in the car. For example, an unbelted passenger in a rear seat can become a projectile and injure people in the front; likewise, an unbelted driver might lose control of the car where he otherwise could have maintained it, thus endangering the passengers.


First I would say that you can only count someone flying out of their own car and hitting someone in another car(whoever owns the car decides whether they make people wear seatbelts. As to that actually happening, or your example of someone losing control; do we have actual examples of either?
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Diadem » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:15 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:Just an aside, does anyone else think that laws mandating the wearing of helmets/seatbelts don't make any sense whatsoever? I mean even the drug laws pretend to be based in public safety.

Well let's not forget that if you kill or injure yourself in an accident most of the cost goes to society.

Of ourse that's also an argument for banning smoking, or mandating sunscreen. But I suppose the big difference here is the impact such a measure has on your life. Cars already have seatbelts anyway, it costs you all of 5 seconds to put them on at the start of your trip, in other words nothing at all. Banning smoking or drugs has a much larger impact on your life and personal freedom.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Calorus » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:41 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:Just an aside, does anyone else think that laws mandating the wearing of helmets/seatbelts don't make any sense whatsoever? I mean even the drug laws pretend to be based in public safety.


Also you have the fact that there is a crime of 'causing death by dangerous driving' and insurance claims to consider, in the UK at least, since not wearing a helmet on a bike or seatbelt in a car make the OTHER driver through no fault of their own more likely to face these charges and their insurance company more likely to be saddled with higher costs.

Personally, I think that not wearing a seatbelt in a car or a helmet on a motorbike should make others exempt from any liabilities arising from the accident - if you can't be bothered to do the minimum for yourself you don't deserve to cost the system.

Diadem wrote:Well let's not forget that if you kill or injure yourself in an accident most of the cost goes to society.

Of ourse that's also an argument for banning smoking, or mandating sunscreen. But I suppose the big difference here is the impact such a measure has on your life. Cars already have seatbelts anyway, it costs you all of 5 seconds to put them on at the start of your trip, in other words nothing at all. Banning smoking or drugs has a much larger impact on your life and personal freedom.


Difference with smoking (in public places) is that if you smoke I smoke, and the only choice that I have, without a ban, is to avoid anywhere people may be smoking - to me that's a far bigger infringement on liberties.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Adacore » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:52 pm UTC

In a country with any kind of socialised healthcare, mandating things that reduce the chance of an individual requiring that healthcare (at the expense of the state) is logical. Thus in a country like the UK, I imagine mandatory seat belts make a lot of sense - the cost is negligible and the saving significant. In essence, socialised healthcare logically goes hand in hand with the 'nanny state' principle, for pure cost/benefit reasons.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Zamfir » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:05 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:In a country with any kind of socialised healthcare, mandating things that reduce the chance of an individual requiring that healthcare (at the expense of the state) is logical. Thus in a country like the UK, I imagine mandatory seat belts make a lot of sense - the cost is negligible and the saving significant. In essence, socialised healthcare logically goes hand in hand with the 'nanny state' principle, for pure cost/benefit reasons.

There was a thread about this recently, and the conclusion was that the US was extremely similar in this kind of self-protective actions as more socialized health care countries. Also seat belt laws, even more smoking bans, war on drugs, you name it.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby HermanBlount » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:42 pm UTC

Griffin wrote:Is it a good idea?


No, because people shouldn't be driving in the first place since it is far too dangerous. If we were serious about public safety, we would be locking citizens into small padded cells, nude, so that they don't "accidentally" strangle themselves using their pants. In the US, we have a pretty good start on this, but there are still very many citizens who are inexplicably allowed to roam free.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby RMgX » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:33 pm UTC

From a safety aspect it would probably help. In many car-sports a helmet and other protective gear are used, and I guess they don't just throw it on for the good looks. If suppose people should wear them if they appreciate the extra safety over any negative effects the helmet may bring.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby awesomejess » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:49 pm UTC

HermanBlount wrote:
Griffin wrote:Is it a good idea?


No, because people shouldn't be driving in the first place since it is far too dangerous. If we were serious about public safety, we would be locking citizens into small padded cells, nude, so that they don't "accidentally" strangle themselves using their pants. In the US, we have a pretty good start on this, but there are still very many citizens who are inexplicably allowed to roam free.



Flip, but an interesting point. Considering the things we aren't allowed to do in the US in the name of personal or public safety I think its amazing that driving is permissible. People hurtling thousands of pounds in the opposite direction of other people hurtling thousands of pounds at high velocity relative to human reaction time...yikes! And I can't wear my Heelies to Home Depot, are you kidding me!! IMO the 'computer car' or vastly increased forms of mass transit would have/should have prevailed long ago...Big Auto keeps us behind the wheel.

RE helmets...I like it. Maybe I'll start wearing one but its really going to mess up my hair! Helmet laws in cars? Maybe in a few decades, but hopefully our transit will be evolved beyond the need for helmets by then.

Edit: Curious - how did racing evolve with helmet use vs. the lack of helmet use associated with personal transport? Any statistics on the effectiveness of helmets in racing?

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Chen » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:25 pm UTC

I have to wonder about the hearing impediment helmets will cause (assuming motorcycle like helmets). You now have the helmet and the car doors/windows to block outside sound. On a motorcycle you don't have anything except the helmet enclosing you. Peripheral vision could also be affected which seems like it would be more detrimental when you're in a large vehicle as opposed to a relatively small bike.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:36 pm UTC

Having driven with a helmet on, I can tell you safely that it is a sucktastic experience. Any helmet that is going to protect you from any significant skull damage at the speeds an automobile can go is going to cause you neck problems, shoulder problems, vision problems, hearing problems, and cause you to slap your head against the roof of your vehicle if you are of even moderate height.

I would not be pro-helmet in vehicle.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Griffin » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:39 pm UTC

Oregonaut, are you talking about a proper car helmet, with the shoulder things?

Or like, a heavy motorcycle helmet?

Or like a light bicycle helmet?
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:47 pm UTC

I was wearing a MICH.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Zamfir » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:11 am UTC

Sure, but those are ugly. For private use you can buy a cool helmet.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby TGM » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:14 am UTC

Oregonaut wrote:neck problems, shoulder problems, vision problems, hearing problems, and cause you to slap your head against the roof of your vehicle if you are of even moderate height.


I have worn my motorcycle helmet in a car and only two of those are apply to a motorcycle helmet: you can't hear as much and you'll hit your head on everything if you don't lower the seat heaps.

Chen wrote:Peripheral vision could also be affected which seems like it would be more detrimental when you're in a large vehicle as opposed to a relatively small bike.


Peripheral vision is not affected by a motorcycle helmet, and peripheral vision if more important when you're on a bike.

But with better safety features and more air bags in cars I don't think helmets would be necessary. I wouldn't wear one. If they were made mandatory it would probably result in me riding my motorbike more.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Griffin » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:51 pm UTC

An act which I would probably support, since bikes tend to be a lot more efficient than cars, and every less car on the road makes me that much safer when I'm on my bike.

I'd guess mandating helmets and silly outfits for car drivers would probably save a lot more bicyclist and motorcyclist lives... not that I think thats a good rationale for any sort of mandate, but still.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Woopate » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:10 am UTC

Where I live, the individual without the seatbelt gets the fine, if over the age of 16. Drivers need not enforce anything. I still have a difficult time understanding how they enforce it, given the numerous styles of seatbelts, and how many of them are invisible to vehicles from behind.

As for helmets, I'd prefer to know some numbers on performance in street vehicles in terms of effectiveness of injury prevention before making a call. Instinctively, I believe too many people forego their shoulder checks as is, let alone with a large heavy, bulky thing on their head making *that* much more difficult for them to do it.

Kind of an aside: In Canada, we have a show called "Canada's Worst Driver" and it shows just how terrifying a place the roads can be. It's partially humorous, and extremely terror-inducing, they take people who have been referred to the show by friends and put them in closed courses with driving tasks that are tricky, but doable by a "regular" driver. If there was one single place I'd invest to drastically improve road safety, it would be more strenuous driving tests, and perhaps require a currency test to catch people who have let their driving standards slip too far.

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Calorus » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:49 pm UTC

Woopate wrote:Where I live, the individual without the seatbelt gets the fine, if over the age of 16. Drivers need not enforce anything. I still have a difficult time understanding how they enforce it, given the numerous styles of seatbelts, and how many of them are invisible to vehicles from behind.

As for helmets, I'd prefer to know some numbers on performance in street vehicles in terms of effectiveness of injury prevention before making a call. Instinctively, I believe too many people forego their shoulder checks as is, let alone with a large heavy, bulky thing on their head making *that* much more difficult for them to do it.

Kind of an aside: In Canada, we have a show called "Canada's Worst Driver" and it shows just how terrifying a place the roads can be. It's partially humorous, and extremely terror-inducing, they take people who have been referred to the show by friends and put them in closed courses with driving tasks that are tricky, but doable by a "regular" driver. If there was one single place I'd invest to drastically improve road safety, it would be more strenuous driving tests, and perhaps require a currency test to catch people who have let their driving standards slip too far.

Is it off topic to enquire about the demands made of you in your Driving Tests on the whole in the first instance? I've just been hunting around online for details of the Driving Syllabus for any states, but have come up blank.

In the UK, for a Full, unrestricted licence, we have to sit an electronic multiple choice driving test which around 40% fail first time (30/35 pass mark), and a more difficult hazards perception test.
5 Oral Theory Questions on within the practical tests.
Rural, Urban and Dual-Carriageway driving (traffic allowing) and 2 of reverse parking, parrallel parking, reversing round a bend and turning in the road in a manual car.

It's a lot easier than some of the Scandinavians, but I can't work out how it compares to yours because I can't find a state by state breakdown of the exams.

If the licence is less demanding, would it still be sufficiently dangerous as to consider requiring a helmet if by more stringent licensing you could reduce accident and death figures to European levels?

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Woopate
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Woopate » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:01 pm UTC

Calorus wrote:If the licence is less demanding, would it still be sufficiently dangerous as to consider requiring a helmet if by more stringent licensing you could reduce accident and death figures to European levels?


I'm trying really hard to read this sentence, but it's not clicking for me. Could you put it into different terms?

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby Obby » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:30 pm UTC

Woopate wrote:
Calorus wrote:If the licence is less demanding, would it still be sufficiently dangerous as to consider requiring a helmet if by more stringent licensing you could reduce accident and death figures to European levels?


I'm trying really hard to read this sentence, but it's not clicking for me. Could you put it into different terms?


"Would you still need a helmet law if the requirements to obtain a license in the first place were much higher, thus reducing accident and auto-related deaths to European levels?"

That's how I interpreted it.
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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby dumbzebra » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:24 pm UTC

I´m generally against laws that restrict you from doing something, for the safety of yourself (just like drug prohibition).
A better solution is allways to generate a healthy relationship.
In the case of driving I think we have a very bad relationship, with drunk drivers, texting while driving, not having your seatbelt on, speeding, etc..
If you prevented those obstacles you would probably safe more lifes than just mandatory let everyone crash, but safely because we have a helmet on.

And just practical, it would be very hard to impose such a law on people who still don´t put their seatbelt on, who still speed and drive drunk.
As the great philosopher Socrates once said: "No."

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Re: Should drivers and passengers in automobiles wear helmet

Postby mmmcannibalism » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:36 pm UTC

dumbzebra wrote:I´m generally against laws that restrict you from doing something, for the safety of yourself (just like drug prohibition).
A better solution is allways to generate a healthy relationship.
In the case of driving I think we have a very bad relationship, with drunk drivers, texting while driving, not having your seatbelt on, speeding, etc..
If you prevented those obstacles you would probably safe more lifes than just mandatory let everyone crash, but safely because we have a helmet on.

And just practical, it would be very hard to impose such a law on people who still don´t put their seatbelt on, who still speed and drive drunk.


Agreed, and honestly this is probably worse because there isn't even an argument for helmets benefiting anyone besides the wearer.
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