Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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psion
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:58 am UTC

He's NA, and his actual id is snow #836. I only found him by guessing.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby SPsnow02 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:14 am UTC

I'm on NA

Edit: Sorry for the fail, my beta nick was Sn00w, forgot I changed it
Rawr!

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Kain » Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:15 am UTC

So did some pro recently use a modified cannon rush in some tournament or something, where they establish the cannons in your natural, pushing forward to just out of range of your ramp? I ask because in the last two games I played, this strategy was used against me, and I have never seen it before. One player used it poorly, merely as a diversion to go to void rays (which I do not have any idea why he did, as he already had seen my blink stalkers from his third zealot aggression). The second player, however, macroed better than me, and slowly but surely whittled away my defenses. (Its always nice to see a fellow bronze player actually use a mixed composition army, even if it is just non-charge zealots, non-blink stalkers and non-speed upgraded void rays.)

Oh, and Jesse, Ravens are essential, regardless of skill level or enemy race. In the last two weeks, I have won all but one of my zerg versus enemy terran matchups where the terran went bioball, simply because they didn't have detectors to spot my burrowed infestors when they finally got around to attacking, and their scans where purely reactive (and in most cases missed most of my units). (I know I should be using the infestors for fungal growth on the bioballs, but I typically just use infested marines, so that I don't have to unburrow.)
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:32 am UTC

I heard about a cannon rush in the current GSL, but I didn't see it to know if it was similar. It's kind of weird to think that a bronze player would mimic professionals though.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Spambot5546 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:18 pm UTC

I recently started doing the Korean 4-gate and it's been doing pretty well. Even if i fail to get a pylon in my opponent's base, i can usually get one somewhere nearby, and that's enough. Thus far i've won something like 5 games in a row, which, considering how bad i am, is saying something.

I also tried it 2v2 with a buddy. We won 4 of our 5 placement matches with me 4-gating and him 2-gating. Basically a one-two punch that got us placed in Gold despite the fact that we're both silver level 1v1 players.

Our last placement match was the attached. We should've lost that one. The red player was good, and he had us at pretty much every stage of that game. Like, by the balls. Especially because i accidentally trapped myself in my base and couldn't build proxy pylons or expand until i had a transport.
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"It is bitter – bitter", he answered,
"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby llamanaru » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:40 pm UTC

Did you never consider just killing the pylon with your own units? I'd say the 100 mineral penalty there would have been more than worth it.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Kain » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:29 am UTC

llamanaru wrote:Did you never consider just killing the pylon with your own units? I'd say the 100 mineral penalty there would have been more than worth it.


100 minerals + time lost when whatever buildings it was powering were unpowered. (I too have been known to lock myself into a base by accident).
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby llamanaru » Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:42 am UTC

I suppose, although ideally he would have built a replacement pylon as soon as he found he was locked in. Even if he hadn't he would have gained a lot by being able to expand at the normal time.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:23 am UTC

Against a 6 pool, the best thing to do is block yourself in with gateway, pylon and forge. Its not the worst thing in the world to do, since you arent really losing anything early game except the ability to apply some early zealot pressure.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Xeio » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:14 am UTC

A full walloff is a bit extreme, you can leave 1 space and just hold position a zealot there (they can be free to send lings 1 at a time against it... I'd welcome them to in any situation). And really, until you get stalkers they get some free attacking on your wall if you close it entirely...

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:09 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:A full walloff is a bit extreme, you can leave 1 space and just hold position a zealot there (they can be free to send lings 1 at a time against it... I'd welcome them to in any situation). And really, until you get stalkers they get some free attacking on your wall if you close it entirely...


Even with a 10 gate with chronoboosting, your zealot wont be out in time against a 6 or 7 pool.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Ixtellor » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:41 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Xeio wrote:A full walloff is a bit extreme, you can leave 1 space and just hold position a zealot there (they can be free to send lings 1 at a time against it... I'd welcome them to in any situation). And really, until you get stalkers they get some free attacking on your wall if you close it entirely...


Even with a 10 gate with chronoboosting, your zealot wont be out in time against a 6 or 7 pool.


Depends on the distance they lings have to run.

Im the 6 pool King of Cheese and frequently people can have their zealot coming out while I am running in if I have to run a long distance. (Usually 8 player maps)

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Has anyone successfully gotten into 4v4 random platinum or diamond?
I have been #1 in my league for weeks now, I am the only guy in the top 20 with a winning record... and still I am stuck there. All losses are due to inept teamates -- Here is the "we lose" chat I hear frequently:
Player X says "Im going DT" or Player T says "Im going thors"
(Really!?! You're going DT in a 4v4 game that is almost sure to include at Least one terran?!?!)
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:56 pm UTC

Dts work perfectly well against teams with terrans. They only have so many scans available.

And no, im only silver in 4v4. Plat/diamond for everything else, and silver for 4v4 random.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Dts work perfectly well against teams with terrans. They only have so many scans available.


Only works once though. After that, they get a Raven and the fun is over.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:27 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Dts work perfectly well against teams with terrans. They only have so many scans available.


Only works once though. After that, they get a Raven and the fun is over.


Maybe, maybe not. They might not have a starport, or you or your allies might have massive air superiority. You can snipe ravens really easily with feedback or phoenixes. Or maybe they need their starport for viking production because your ally is building colossi.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:53 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Dts work perfectly well against teams with terrans. They only have so many scans available.


Only works once though. After that, they get a Raven and the fun is over.


Maybe, maybe not. They might not have a starport, or you or your allies might have massive air superiority. You can snipe ravens really easily with feedback or phoenixes. Or maybe they need their starport for viking production because your ally is building colossi.


Well, there are other ways. You can EMP DTs into visibility as well. It's harder to deny ghosts in a way that wouldn't win you the game, DTs or not.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Woofsie » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:16 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote: You can EMP DTs into visibility as well.

Really? But their cloak doesn't use energy...

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:20 pm UTC

Woofsie wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote: You can EMP DTs into visibility as well.

Really? But their cloak doesn't use energy...


EMP reveals all cloaked units, as well as draining energy and shields. It will reveal both DTs and observers

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:21 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Woofsie wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote: You can EMP DTs into visibility as well.

Really? But their cloak doesn't use energy...


EMP reveals all cloaked units, as well as draining energy and shields. It will reveal both DTs and observers


Not observers. I tried to decloak an observer once, and it did nothing but waste ghost energy.
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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:31 pm UTC

It definitely works on observers, unless they have changed that in 1.1.

They did make some unlisted changes in 1.1, like feedback no longer working on PDD

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:43 pm UTC

If you EMP on the ripple, then you miss. You have to aim slightly below it due to 3D perspective.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Delbin » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:59 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Dts work perfectly well against teams with terrans. They only have so many scans available.
Only works once though. After that, they get a Raven and the fun is over. [etc. etc...]
I can't think of a reason not to have a teammate use cloaked units. Somebody on the team has to make mobile detection or they lose. It could be one teammate focusing a lot of attention and resources covering everyone or everyone going down tech trees they didn't want to go down to get detection. Anyway, since DTs are such gas-heavy units you'll likely start stockpiling a lot of minerals to make some extra warp gates. Once DTs stop being effective you can just start making stalkers en masse without any extra investment.

The game isn't about specific counters. It's true that a detector can severely reduce the effectiveness of DTs, but ravens and ghosts are significant investments in their own right and require a lot of attention to position and counter. That's money not being spent on expanding or whatever they were planning on. The time it takes them to get proper mobile detection is time where you can expand and transition into another strategy.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:20 pm UTC

Delbin wrote:It's true that a detector can severely reduce the effectiveness of DTs, but ravens and ghosts are significant investments in their own right and require a lot of attention to position and counter. That's money not being spent on expanding or whatever they were planning on.

That goes both ways (cloaked units are significant investments). That's why I don't understand the "I'm building this" mentality in team games. You have to be able to react to everything and anything, and a DT rush isn't exactly solid.
That might just be the zerg in me talking though.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Jesse » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:31 pm UTC

I hate getting into a random 2v2 and the other player saying "We'll rush together". I like to play more towards a mid-game. My wins tend to take about twenty minutes of out-macroing my opponent with occasional harass.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:45 pm UTC

psion wrote:
Delbin wrote:It's true that a detector can severely reduce the effectiveness of DTs, but ravens and ghosts are significant investments in their own right and require a lot of attention to position and counter. That's money not being spent on expanding or whatever they were planning on.

That goes both ways (cloaked units are significant investments). That's why I don't understand the "I'm building this" mentality in team games. You have to be able to react to everything and anything, and a DT rush isn't exactly solid.
That might just be the zerg in me talking though.


Rushing to DTs followed by a fast expand is a solid strategy against terran and a non-robo toss.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Delbin » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:00 pm UTC

psion wrote:
Delbin wrote:It's true that a detector can severely reduce the effectiveness of DTs, but ravens and ghosts are significant investments in their own right and require a lot of attention to position and counter. That's money not being spent on expanding or whatever they were planning on.

That goes both ways (cloaked units are significant investments). That's why I don't understand the "I'm building this" mentality in team games. You have to be able to react to everything and anything, and a DT rush isn't exactly solid.
That might just be the zerg in me talking though.
Zerg are different in that you just make one spire and suddenly you can make a dozen mutas. A protoss that makes a couple robo bay for detection and anti-armor, a dark shrine for DTs and blink, a few gateways, and a couple starports will be ready for anything but will be crushed by someone who went all hydras or all stalkers since they have all these buildings but not many units. Generally a good protoss strategy is to have a good core of 2-5 gateways, a robo bay for a couple observers, and whatever money units they decide to invest in. Generally they try to make combos such as colossus/stalker, templar/zealot, or a pure gateway mix in the mid game. It is an investment to make dark templar, but you build up that core of gateways along the way. Like I said it's easy to switch to stalker/zealot; zealot high templar; or even stalker/colossus, if you have that second base.

A protoss can't be ready for everything all the time. Their units tend to be big, often expensive, and rely on lots of buildings to make units quickly. Stalkers are a cheaper and effective counter to air and a robo bay is a necessary investment for some detection. That gives the protoss the bare minimum defence from anything that'll just kill them outright. After that they need to rely on epanding and focusing on a small number of unit types so that they have so many units it doesn't matter what counters the other guy has.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby |Erasmus| » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:10 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:I hate getting into a random 2v2 and the other player saying "We'll rush together". I like to play more towards a mid-game. My wins tend to take about twenty minutes of out-macroing my opponent with occasional harass.

I tend to often subtly ignore those people and use them launching a frontal attack to do a runby at the mineral lines. Which is often pretty effective. They have the choice of losing a bunch of workers, or giving your partner free reign at their front entrance until they deal with your harrass. (not effective with players who just go for a wall-off or if your partner decides the best place to try and double-team the enemy is on a narrow ramp where most of your units can't even fire, or run by)

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:01 am UTC

Delbin wrote:A protoss that makes a couple robo bay for detection and anti-armor, a dark shrine for DTs and blink, a few gateways, and a couple starports will be ready for anything but will be crushed by someone who went all hydras or all stalkers since they have all these buildings but not many units.

It's not like I ever build all my construction buildings as zerg. I only build what's useful. If a protoss sees mass bio/hydra/gateway then he can and should incorporate colossi, but just blindly massing colossi is dumb when they run into corruptors/muta/vikings/tanks/etc because their opponent reacted. What I meant by being a zerg player is that the other races have a very strong counter to everything a zerg can get, so being reactionary is even more critical. I often wish zerg had a safe unit to spam for when I don't have intel.

When people ask me what I'm getting, I just say "stuff".
BlackSails wrote:Rushing to DTs followed by a fast expand is a solid strategy against terran and a non-robo toss.

I'd have to see a replay. I can see how it could work but it still sounds extremely risky and not-solid.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Delbin » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:24 am UTC

psion wrote:
Delbin wrote:A protoss that makes a couple robo bay for detection and anti-armor, a dark shrine for DTs and blink, a few gateways, and a couple starports will be ready for anything but will be crushed by someone who went all hydras or all stalkers since they have all these buildings but not many units.

It's not like I ever build all my construction buildings as zerg. I only build what's useful. If a protoss sees mass bio/hydra/gateway then he can and should incorporate colossi, but just blindly massing colossi is dumb when they run into corruptors/muta/vikings/tanks/etc because their opponent reacted. What I meant by being a zerg player is that the other races have a very strong counter to everything a zerg can get, so being reactionary is even more critical. I often wish zerg had a safe unit to spam for when I don't have intel.

I just mean a zerg just needs one building to make as many of a unit as he wants. If protoss wants to make more than two or three of a unit we need to invest in more buildings. The big advantage of zerg is if you see something, you can make the tech building you need within about a minute and start making as many of those units you want as long as you have resources and larva. Protoss can't play that way in the early to mid game. We need three bases at least before we can do a big switch in strategy. Protoss' advantage is that its gateway units are pretty cheap and versatile so we get a core army without having to worry about hard counters until the late game.

On a related note, Day[9]'s latest has a nice feature on a versatile protoss opening. I'm not saying that day-9 said it so it's the best thing ever, but he does explain the general concept of it very well. The important bits are in the first 7 minutes

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:34 am UTC

There's no way you could even afford two or three simultaneous productions of T2 on one base. Much like there's no way I could afford a sizable hydra army on two bases. But if you have even a single colossi then I can't engage your army with my hydra without doubling your army size. Another example: if you get one VR then I can be in trouble, but if I get two muta then I might tickle you a little. So, I don't really understand your point, unless it's just "zerg is different from protoss".

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby mutestorm » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:19 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Rushing to DTs followed by a fast expand is a solid strategy against terran and a non-robo toss.


Terran wise, maybe @ silver and lower. Anybody else could tell something was fishy from you lack of units early on (supposing they didnt see your hidden shrine). If the player is somehow caught completely off guard from it, say you managed to warp prism them in, we have scans, during which time we can build an engi bay (they go up real fast) assuming we dont have one already.

psion wrote:There's no way you could even afford two or three simultaneous productions of T2 on one base. Much like there's no way I could afford a sizable hydra army on two bases. But if you have even a single colossi then I can't engage your army with my hydra without doubling your army size. Another example: if you get one VR then I can be in trouble, but if I get two muta then I might tickle you a little. So, I don't really understand your point, unless it's just "zerg is different from protoss".

The point is zerg can change the army composition on the turn of a dime, whereas other races are confined to the amount of specific structures they have for building. For example, say i make a push as terran with a rushed 2fact thing. Your spire just finished (late), and im pushing you before you get any mutas up. You got a roach warren semi-early, so you have a decent ling/roach composition, and we trade (for whatever reasons). after that, I choose not to expand and instead apply pressure. However, since I rushed fact and only have 1 barracks, I cant build enough anti air in time for your mutas to devastate me, assuming youve been properly spawning larva this whole time.

It's a little different than toss in that toss can run most of their unit composition out of gateways, but the same principle applies: we can only queue up to the amount f buildings weve created, in contrast to hatcheries, where every larva is basically a ready slot in a building. It's not even really an argument, it's well known that post T1 zerg has a great reactionary ability in it's hatcheries.

psion wrote:It's not like I ever build all my construction buildings as zerg. I only build what's useful. If a protoss sees mass bio/hydra/gateway then he can and should incorporate colossi, but just blindly massing colossi is dumb when they run into corruptors/muta/vikings/tanks/etc because their opponent reacted. What I meant by being a zerg player is that the other races have a very strong counter to everything a zerg can get, so being reactionary is even more critical. I often wish zerg had a safe unit to spam for when I don't have intel.

Toss has a good deal of trouble with corruptors and brood lords, as does terran, but less so. Of course, that's pretty late game, so its hard to experiment with spamming it. I think roach is the safest spam unit during mid game transition, but thats only my experience as a terran v zerg; they do cost a good deal of supply, after all.

Delbin wrote:A protoss that makes a couple robo bay for detection and anti-armor, a dark shrine for DTs and blink, a few gateways, and a couple starports will be ready for anything but will be crushed by someone who went all hydras or all stalkers since they have all these buildings but not many units.

That's a late game idea. You dont tech up and slowly make units like that, unless you have a specific tricky goal in mind. Nobody's going to come at you in all the ways you expect, so you have to (attempt to) play to the weakness of your opponent, or play to the strengths of a goal oriented army.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Chen » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:13 pm UTC

DTs are actually pretty good in a 4v4. Obviously not as your primary spammed unit but in large combats (with multiple players) its not always clear what exactly is killing units. A couple of DTs add a LOT of damage especially if they don't realize thats whats happening. They're good at harassing too, by sending them into opponents bases while there is a big multi-army conflict going on.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:39 pm UTC

mutestorm wrote: The point is zerg can change the army composition on the turn of a dime, whereas other races are confined to the amount of specific structures they have for building. For example, say i make a push as terran with a rushed 2fact thing. Your spire just finished (late), and im pushing you before you get any mutas up. You got a roach warren semi-early, so you have a decent ling/roach composition, and we trade (for whatever reasons). after that, I choose not to expand and instead apply pressure. However, since I rushed fact and only have 1 barracks, I cant build enough anti air in time for your mutas to devastate me, assuming youve been properly spawning larva this whole time.

We're straying far from my main point, but I'm saying that it doesn't matter that protoss and terran don't have the same production capability of zerg. In your example, just get an armory and a thor and you're fine against a first round of muta. There's really no reason not to. It doesn't matter that you can only get one thor or one colossus or one VR, because a zerg has to make a unit that counters it just to remain cost efficient and not get steamrolled, and that demands the entirety of zerg's advantage in their ability to tech switch. A zerg can't actually tech switch back and forth in a way that forces the other races to continually react; a zerg has to tech switch in order to stay alive. I mean, if the multiple production advantage was so powerful then I don't think zerg would be widely regarded as underpowered.

I'm not surprised that a lot of people don't understand zerg, and that's why I'm discussing it. It's complicated and interests me, and it has a lot of misconceptions from people who don't play it at a high level. I just sometimes wish it didn't suck.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Jesse » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:45 pm UTC

And Zerg have that early tradeoff between making units and making drones that the other races don't have.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:03 pm UTC

psion wrote:I'd have to see a replay. I can see how it could work but it still sounds extremely risky and not-solid.


I dont have any saved replays of it, but here it is on the liquidpedia. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/D ... _Terran%29

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:52 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
psion wrote:I'd have to see a replay. I can see how it could work but it still sounds extremely risky and not-solid.


I dont have any saved replays of it, but here it is on the liquidpedia. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/D ... _Terran%29

If you're free within the next few hours I'd like it if you tried it against me (as terran obviously). I'll be online.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby Jesse » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:42 pm UTC

So many things I need to improve on. I'm at a level now where I'm expanding comfortably, and often having three/four expansions, and I'm reaching 200 food and things like that, but I'm terrible at the endgame. I generally try to win by outmacroing my opponent, mainly because my micro is absolutely awful and that's two games in a row where my endgame was awful. Still having trouble defending cloaked banshee harass too. I'm getting Vikings and Ravens but just not enough of them it seems. I'm too annoyed to play right now, but I'll jump back in later and have another guy, maybe trying some harass of my own, or pushing at mid-game instead of just army-building.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby psion » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:46 pm UTC

I just watched your tournament games, Jesse, and I found something that really hurts your economy. Your orbital command is always late. Always always always build it immediatley after your first barracks finishes. Next, always use at least your first two orbital spells on mules (you would opt for scan). Those two things are actually pretty huge, and if you fix them then I guarantee that you'll immediately feel a difference in how much more you're able to accomplish in the early game.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby BlackSails » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:08 pm UTC

psion wrote:I just watched your tournament games, Jesse, and I found something that really hurts your economy. Your orbital command is always late. Always always always build it immediatley after your first barracks finishes. Next, always use at least your first two orbital spells on mules (you would opt for scan). Those two things are actually pretty huge, and if you fix them then I guarantee that you'll immediately feel a difference in how much more you're able to accomplish in the early game.


Orbital commands are one of the reasons terrans can actually go 10rax and not have a terrible economy. Yes, you cut scvs, but you end up with a much earlier mule.

Also, im available now psion.

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Re: *geek-gasm* IT'S OFFICIAL!! (Starcraft 2)

Postby You, sir, name? » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:12 pm UTC

mutestorm wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
Rushing to DTs followed by a fast expand is a solid strategy against terran and a non-robo toss.


Terran wise, maybe @ silver and lower. Anybody else could tell something was fishy from you lack of units early on (supposing they didnt see your hidden shrine). If the player is somehow caught completely off guard from it, say you managed to warp prism them in, we have scans, during which time we can build an engi bay (they go up real fast) assuming we dont have one already.


Not to mention the double gas. If I scout a protoss going for early double gas, I get detection up ASAP. This of course also protects in case they're going early void rays.

This is very similar to TvT when you scout an early double gas, a single barracks and a single factory. It doesn't matter if you've cleverly hidden your starport in some obscure part of the map, I know you're building banshees, and plenty of marines and turrets will greet them when they show up.
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