[TM] The Departed Mafia - Game Over! People win!

[mpolo]

I think that a lot of the win conditions are going to have something "extra". Both scum and police have to worry about there being moles in their organizations. I'm quite happy about the former, but the latter is going to make our use of cops somewhat difficult.

[mister k]

to be fair, if we're following the film, thats precisely one mole in each team. Presumably theres not going to be enough info for those of us who've seen the film to work it out. I'm thinking we need to hunt down scum.

[weiyaoli]

Another possibility is scum supporters and traitors. I think it might make sense if the moles were scum supporters that only Costello knows who they are (Or maybe not even him) and clearly due to the traitor(s) in the scum faction, it wouldn't be a good idea to reveal them.

to be fair, if we're following the film, thats precisely one mole in each team. Presumably theres not going to be enough info for those of us who've seen the film to work it out. I'm thinking we need to hunt down scum.

I thought there were plenty of moles? I guess Costigan and Sullivan are the main ones though.

[ForAllOfThis]

Theres also the guy who dies but knows costigan is a rat because he was told the wrong building but showed up at the right one. The papers reveal he was a rat but costello doesn't believe it. You never really find out cause he just tells costigan "Why do you think I never told them?" and then dies. That guy who costigan knocks teeth out of is a police informant as well. Costello is an FBI informant. Theres at least 3 extra moles on top of costigan and costello..

[Mavketl]

So, I've seen this movie and reading wiki/imdb about it brought back enough memories for me to have a decent idea what we're doing (I hope).

I imagine that yes, we will have plenty of moles, and it will be really annoying. However, someone mentioned godfathers and millers and with all the lack of trust going around, those seem like plausible options. In which case: millers should still claim on D1.

Frank Costello: Controls the kill?. FBI Snitch as well, so will be interesting to see how that works out. (Scum)

I wonder what the relevance of Costello being an FBI informant is. If we are assuming that town = police in this set-up, then it won't factor in at all for cop results (they don't know he's an FBI snitch, right?). If town = everyone not mafia, then he might be a godfather (cops as town) of some sort. I think that the first option is much more likely. It might give him a weird/extra/independent win condition, though.

Any thoughts on who could be independent in this game and how?
I was thinking maybe Madolyn, since in the end she's not that invested in the mafia vs. police 'battle'. She's invested in individual characters and in her own life. I don't know how that would translate into a win condition, though... find Costigan and/or Sullivan? Protect (one of) them? Just survive?

But, I've worked out my character parallel. I wonder if we can claim using the actor's/actress' name without constituting massclaim...

In addition to Weeks' response to this: how could this possibly work? Unless I'm misinterpreting your idea, claiming the actor has the exact same effect of claiming the rolename.

[Zid]

I was thinking about who would be a doctor and Madolyn is the only conclusion I came to, she could easily be one, the other or possibly both.

There are opportunities for a lot of moles, not just two. Like FAOT has stated, I think the most interesting character would be Delahunt, since it's put on the news that he was undercover but Costello immediately refutes that with the belief that it's simply being done to make him believe that the mole he had was dead... you never really find out who was right.

[Zid]

EBWOP: cjdrum can I also get clarification on what you mean by "I've worked out my character parallel"

[ForAllOfThis]

@Mav that would seem like a very difficult win condition. It's more likely that madolyn is just a doctor or maybe psychiatrist (if we have insane/paranoid cop results), I'd be expecting her to be town though because shes disgusted with sullivan when she finds out the truth. If independent then definitely pro-town I would say.

[Weeks]

It's possible that Madolyn has been simply flanderized into a simpler role. She was a psychiatrist, right? I'd say doctor. Or was her love thing with Costigan/Sullivan stronger? Then lover?

[weiyaoli]

@cjdrum

Another problem with a mass claim is that with 14 players, I don't think there are enough "main" characters to go around. So we will see obscure roles pop up that makes mass-claiming frankly not too great a tactic. Especially considering the fact that we don't want to reveal the FBI moles to scum anyway. There's also the concern that such a tactic is clearly game-breaking and that there must be some measures in place to prevent such a thing from occuring.

[mpolo]

Yeah, there was the a meta-discussion that boiled down to "a game that can be broken by mass-claiming is a broken game", which has probably led to checks and balances built into the roles that make a claim unwise for various characters for various reasons. Lynchers, assassins, and the like.

There was also a lot of eavesdropping in the movie, if I recall correctly, which means that anyone having communications abilities (masons, lovers, etc.) is going to have to be careful of what he or she says.

[more_people]

Hey, just confirming our place as we've been away on the weekend.

[mister k]

Another possibility is scum supporters and traitors. I think it might make sense if the moles were scum supporters that only Costello knows who they are (Or maybe not even him) and clearly due to the traitor(s) in the scum faction, it wouldn't be a good idea to reveal them.

to be fair, if we're following the film, thats precisely one mole in each team. Presumably theres not going to be enough info for those of us who've seen the film to work it out. I'm thinking we need to hunt down scum.

I thought there were plenty of moles? I guess Costigan and Sullivan are the main ones though.

hmm, maybe I need to watch it again... eh. I'm not sure whether speculation back and forth on moles is going to be of much use to us here, other than to try and restrict discussion.

[roband]

30 hours and 20 minutes 'til deadline. There will be no extension.

There are currently no votes. Get lynching!

[Mavketl]

Time to look for miniscule scum tells, I suppose.

1) cjdrum, show up and start explaining/responding! Or else... et cetera.
2) Chandani is mostly talking about how she doesn't know anything.
3) This post by mister k is just weird. As has been pointed out later on, it's inaccurate (there are more moles), but there's also the "I'm thinking we need to hunt down scum" thing which... oh really? None of us realized that!

[cjdrum]

Ah, crap. I don't like the way m_p refers to himself (with plurals), so my vote stands on that. We have a little over a day left, and nobody is seeming scummy. So somebody has to do something.

vote: more_people

Also, a question:
At deadline, how is a lynch decided on? NL, majority, or >=33%?


Preview Edit - Ninja'd: I made a small comment, thinking it was innocent, and we have >9000 posts about it?
I don't know exactly what you want me to respond to, exactly. Um, "Oh, yeah, with 14 people, it would be hard to spread roles", "Um, I was just thinking that if a roleclaim was ever a good idea, then that'd probably work, it'd be less likely to constitute massclaim", "I'm sorry, I really am!"

Do they answer all the questions, or were there more?

[Mavketl]

Do they answer all the questions, or were there more?

For your convenience, here are the (direct) responses to your post.

I wonder if I can suggest something scummy without people calling me out for it and without being too blatant about it either...

oh wait

Also, cjdrum: I don't think it's smart to claim in this game. At all. The moles are everywhere! No one can be trusted! And who knows if there are lynchers out there or anything.

In addition to Weeks' response to this: how could this possibly work? Unless I'm misinterpreting your idea, claiming the actor has the exact same effect of claiming the rolename.

EBWOP: cjdrum can I also get clarification on what you mean by "I've worked out my character parallel"

@cjdrum

Another problem with a mass claim is that with 14 players, I don't think there are enough "main" characters to go around. So we will see obscure roles pop up that makes mass-claiming frankly not too great a tactic. Especially considering the fact that we don't want to reveal the FBI moles to scum anyway. There's also the concern that such a tactic is clearly game-breaking and that there must be some measures in place to prevent such a thing from occuring.

And for the record, I don't like your reply. People ask you to clarify things ("how do you think this would work any different than claiming rolenames?" or "can you clarify what you meant by X?") and you go "Gee Willikers guys it was just a comment why are you making a big deal out if thiiiiiiis". And nobody was making a big deal out of it, they were all just engaging in discussion and asking questions. Well, until I asked you to respond, which apparently was a ridiculous thing to do.

[roband]

At deadline, the majority lynch. A tie results in a random lynch.

And to answer the question you didn't ask, a massclaim is still a massclaim. Don't do it.

[cjdrum]

I wonder if I can suggest something scummy without people calling me out for it and without being too blatant about it either...

oh wait

Dammit, I knew this was directed at me.

Also, cjdrum: I don't think it's smart to claim in this game. At all. The moles are everywhere! No one can be trusted! And who knows if there are lynchers out there or anything.

Okay, point taken.

In addition to Weeks' response to this: how could this possibly work? Unless I'm misinterpreting your idea, claiming the actor has the exact same effect of claiming the rolename.

I was kind of thinking that since we aren't allowed to quote from our Role PM, we could use something that we can get from only our Role PM, and no one else's, but isn't actually in there.

EBWOP: cjdrum can I also get clarification on what you mean by "I've worked out my character parallel"

I mean, my Role Name isn't the exact name of a character in The Departed, but I know who it kind of is meant to be.

@cjdrum

Another problem with a mass claim is that with 14 players, I don't think there are enough "main" characters to go around. So we will see obscure roles pop up that makes mass-claiming frankly not too great a tactic. Especially considering the fact that we don't want to reveal the FBI moles to scum anyway. There's also the concern that such a tactic is clearly game-breaking and that there must be some measures in place to prevent such a thing from occuring.

Uh-huh. Okay. Again, it was just thinking out loud, and I now have a straight reason why it is bad. Thankyou.

And for the record, I don't like your reply. People ask you to clarify things ("how do you think this would work any different than claiming rolenames?" or "can you clarify what you meant by X?") and you go "Gee Willikers guys it was just a comment why are you making a big deal out if thiiiiiiis". And nobody was making a big deal out of it, they were all just engaging in discussion and asking questions. Well, until I asked you to respond, which apparently was a ridiculous thing to do.

I... Am sorry. I... Have a crappy life where apparently everybody has to ask me the same 2 or 3 questions every time they see me. I now just have a habit of ignoring repeated questions.

But, that response probably doesn't meet any "un-suspect" requirements, so pretend I said this: "I probably over exaggerated what was happening, and I'm sorry. When three or four people made comments on how my plan wouldn't work, or wouldn't be different (which I got all at the same time from not reading the thread every day), I got defensive and, as you can see, my frustration went onto the computer. And I'm sorry. My answers are above, if people would now like to read them."

[mpolo]

Cjdrum seems to be just digging himself in deeper. And even his scummy sounding ideas are inconsistent. He wants us all to claim actors, and then he claims that his character isn't in the movie?? What is this, "everybody should claim except for me, that way it's not a mass claim"?

I am really close to a vote now. No, I'm going to place a vote. I'll be on during the day, so can revise it if necessary.

Vote: cjdrum

[cjdrum]

What? No, my Role Name is extremely similar to somebody's name in the movie. I don't actually have the exact same name, and I assumed that everybody else had a name similar to, but not entirely the same as, a Departed character.

The character in the movie is called X Y. My Role Name is X Z. Thus, character parallel. In the case of actor massclaim, I'd claim X Y's actor.

[mister k]

Cjdrum seems to be just digging himself in deeper. And even his scummy sounding ideas are inconsistent. He wants us all to claim actors, and then he claims that his character isn't in the movie?? What is this, "everybody should claim except for me, that way it's not a mass claim"?

I am really close to a vote now. No, I'm going to place a vote. I'll be on during the day, so can revise it if necessary.

Vote: cjdrum

yeah, thats just absurd

vote:mpolo

[Mavketl]

In addition to Weeks' response to this: how could this possibly work? Unless I'm misinterpreting your idea, claiming the actor has the exact same effect of claiming the rolename.

I was kind of thinking that since we aren't allowed to quote from our Role PM, we could use something that we can get from only our Role PM, and no one else's, but isn't actually in there.

Ah, okay, I get your point now. However, I'm fairly sure that we are allowed to claim our rolename, just like we are allowed to use words that are in our role PM... just not quote it whole (or significant parts). So if someone wants to claim, for whatever reason, it should not be necessary to claim the actor instead of the character.

Mod: We are allowed to claim roles, right?
(Not advised, right now, obviously... but allowed.)


And yeah, I'm not sure where mpolo is coming from there...

[roband]

Yeah, claiming is allowed.

I won't go into why it's ill-advised to be claiming but.. the majority of you have seen the movie, right?

[mpolo]

I must be missing something. At least my PM would lead me to believe that people were actually characters from the movie. (With both names intact…) So the whole "parallel" thing seemed weird to begin with. Then I realized that with the expansion of the game from 11 to 15 that there might be some people who are not precisely a person in the movie. But cjdrum suggested this "claim the actor" strategy, which doesn't really seem to fit together with the "I'm not a character in the movie". It could also well lead to two townies claiming the same actor, leading to a "lynch both of them" strategy and losing two townies.

Since I'm either not thinking clearly or have awakened the whole mob with my vote, I'm presuming that it is the former.

Unvote

But I'd like some help with explaining why my reasoning was so wrong.

[ForAllOfThis]

Yeah, claiming is allowed.

I won't go into why it's ill-advised to be claiming but.. the majority of you have seen the movie, right?

I'm guessing it's because everyone ends up dead?

@mpolo I agree with you're reasoning, more than that if a vote is warranted on anyone right now it's cj. It just seems only misterk didn't agree with your reasoning.

yeah, thats just absurd

vote:mpolo

Reflex-vote to protect one of your mafia misterk? You should explain why you find the reasoning absurd.

FoS: Mister K

[Zid]

Pretty reckless outbursts, very interesting discussion emerges namely concerning everyone's opinion on cjdrum's answers. I like cjdrum's answers, don't much care for the reasoning behind not answering them, whatever.. we've got answers now and there's discussion.

mpolo I think you had a solid suspicion, I have it too. I can't say I'm ready to throw a vote on just yet but that's me. What's interesting is the vote from misterk... please explain yourself.

ninja: Ninjaed by FOAT... what he said!

[Zid]

What constitutes mod-prodable in this game? One confirmation post with one day left to go?

[roband]

As long as the most recent post has been in the last 24 hours, I won't be prodding anyone.

If you have any suggestions for prods, let me know.

[mister k]

Yeah, claiming is allowed.

I won't go into why it's ill-advised to be claiming but.. the majority of you have seen the movie, right?

I'm guessing it's because everyone ends up dead?

@mpolo I agree with you're reasoning, more than that if a vote is warranted on anyone right now it's cj. It just seems only misterk didn't agree with your reasoning.

yeah, thats just absurd

vote:mpolo

Reflex-vote to protect one of your mafia misterk? You should explain why you find the reasoning absurd.

FoS: Mister K

Yes, I'd be that stupid. I should think its obvious- mpolo basically leapt at cjdrum to vote for explaining himself. I don't think cj looks terribly scummy.

[VectorZero]

*puts on Gimme Shelter*

Ok, it's been an age since i've seen the movie (not since theatres. Shit, it came out in 2006?) so most of my analysis is going to be strongly wiki flavoured, but i think one important thing to do is get a character list going. We know 11 chars was the initial plan, now out to 14, so we should look at who is the probable 11, then think how that might be balanced, then think about another 3 chars.

Before I do that, however, I think cjdrum needs to clarify with the mods who his character is, explain better, or get lynched. mpolo's spot on here:

cjdrum suggested this "claim the actor" strategy, which doesn't really seem to fit together with the "I'm not a character in the movie".

Regardless as to whether cjdrum's confused townie or misstepping scum, mpolo's right, and misterk's vote comes off as opportunistic. At the very least, it's not explained. Pending a reasonable explanation from mister k, and expecting a good response from cjdrum, i'm going to start off with a

Vote: mister k

Now, role list. Working through wikipedia (and imdb for extra info), (oh, spoiler warning... are we doing that? has everyone seen the film by now? Also, put actors names in to help my memory.):

Spoiler:

1. Colin Sullivan - Matt Damon - Mafia rat in the Massachusetts state police (MSP) - Killed by Dignam in his apartment
2. Frank Costello - Jack Nicholson - Crime boss, later found to be an FBI informant - Killed by Sullivan at a cocaine drop-off
3. Billy Costigan - Leonardo DiCaprio - State police mole working undercover in Costello's crew - Killed by Barrigan while trying to clear his name
4. Captain Queenan - Martin Sheen - MSP Captain - Killed by Costello's men buying time for Costigan to escape
5. Staff Sergent Dignam - Mark Wahlberg - MSP Sergent - Survives movie, loyal to Queenan. Executes Sullivan at end of movie
6. Madolyn Madden - Vera Farmiga - Psychiatrist - Lover of both Sullivan and Costigan, falls pregnant
7. Timothy Delahunt - Mark Ralston - Costello enforcer - undercover cop, boston PD; Costello ?did not believe this
8. Fitzgibbons - David O'Hara - Costello henchman - failed to properly dispose of Delahunt's body
9. Captain Ellerby - Alec Baldwin - MSP captain - places dignam on leave after he attacks sullivan
10. Trooper Brown - Anthony Anderson - MSP trooper - shot by barrigan when attempting to bring in costigan
11. Arnold French - Ray Winstone - Costello's right hand man - not mentioned in plot summary, but credited high in both wikipedia and imdb, can someone refresh my memory as to what happened with/to this guy?
12. Trooper Barrigan - James Dale - MSP trooper and Costello informant - shoots Costigan and Brown, is shot by Sullivan
13. Sean Costigan - Kevin Corrigan - Billy Costigan's brother - did this character do much in the movie?
14. Frank Lazio - Robert Wahlberg - FBI liaison to SIU - can't remember, presumably related to Costello being an informant?

So, we've got 14 characters credited in the 'Cast' section of wikipedia, and 14 roles, seems a good place to start. I'm not sure about Sean Costigan as a viable role. I could see Frank Lazio as an add in character, and of the others, maybe Ellerby also as an add in? Anyhoo, lets run with this.

Spoiler:

Town:
Costigan (undercover)
Queenan
Dignam
Madden
Delahunt (undercover)
Ellerby
Brown

?Sean Costigan
?Lazio (possibly Indy, probably different goal than the MSP)

Scum:
Costello
Sullivan (mole)
Fitzgibbons
French
Barrigan (mole)

Issues I see are that Sean Costigan is a bit iffy as a character, and the most likely add ins are town, raising balance issues. Thoughts appreciated, especially answering my questions about French, Sean Costigan and Lazio.

Ninja'd while putting that together. Hmm, yeah, ok mister k, you don't think cjdrum is scummy in his actions. Can you explain why you think that? He's definitely been inconsistent.

[Zid]

With votes racking up I want to even this out for the time being, I don't want any player making it through a day of a turbo without making a single post. (confirm doesn't count)

The deadline is approaching.

vote:more_people

I still want to see what misterk has to say.

[Mavketl]

I also don't think cjdrum has been very scummy. My interpretation of what happened:

The rules say "you are not allowed to quote your role PM".
cjdrum interprets this as "you are not allowed to claim your rolename", and suggests that we can get around this by claiming the actor name instead.
Everyone gets confused because what cjdrum is saying doesn't make sense under (the correct interpretation of) the rules and is he trying to make us massclaim or something what the hell?


I thought he explained himself well enough and did not understand mpolo's vote. It looked much more opportunistic to me (voting on the first person to be under attack) than what mister k did. If this is going to come down to a mpolo/mister k battle, I would vote for mpolo.

[VectorZero]

cjdrum interprets this as "you are not allowed to claim your rolename", and suggests that we can get around this by claiming the actor name instead.
Everyone gets confused because what cjdrum is saying doesn't make sense under (the correct interpretation of) the rules and is he trying to make us massclaim or something what the hell?

I thought mpolo was objecting to the point that cjdrum can't claim an actor if his character isn't in the movie...

[Weeks]

But I'd like some help with explaining why my reasoning was so wrong.

Well, you strawmanned him a bit in your earlier post.

He wants us all to claim actors, and then he claims that his character isn't in the movie??

He never said this.

I mostly agree with Mavketl. I understand how cjdrum could've been confused and I think this is more likely than that he made a deliberately scummy move (...though it's not (it's never) out of the question).

mpolo seemed to back off quickly after cjdrum explained...Why not think things through before throwing votes here and there?

mister k seems to like popping and voting with minimal explanation; he only makes longer posts when he's defending. At least he did this as scum in HUAC. I wonder if you're scum now? And if mister k now comes and explains with something other than "it's a hunch" I'll be surprised.

Now...Zid is looking just a teeny bit opportunistic, too, what with prodding and voting more_people. I mean, sure, we shouldn't let someone slip, but there's more dire stuff at hand, eh? Like, I know the deadline is approaching.

Also I didn't get this bit.

mpolo I think you had a solid suspicion, I have it too.

After having said that

I like cjdrum's answers

So, who had a solid suspicion? What are you talking about?

[Weeks]

What I meant with "I know the deadline is approaching": it looks like Zid is active lurking just a little.

[Zid]

Quoted me but conveniently left out the necessary context.. knock that off ¬_¬

mpolo's suspicion of cjdrum was solid, I felt. You can still be suspicious of someone even after the answers they gave made sense. You just don't vote on them.

Like I said, my vote was to make the votes even. I would be annoyed if more_people made it through to D2 by doing nothing at all.

As for the active lurking accusation... lol.

[Wooy`]

He wants us all to claim actors, and then he claims that his character isn't in the movie?? What is this, "everybody should claim except for me, that way it's not a mass claim"?

Reflex-vote to protect one of your mafia misterk? You should explain why you find the reasoning absurd.

Really? I agree that he should explain his vote and reasons in more depth (though I understand what he means but it being absurd). But a reflex-vote to protect a scum-buddy? Just like that? That's insulting to his intelligence, surely.

[Wooy`]

He wants us all to claim actors, and then he claims that his character isn't in the movie?? What is this, "everybody should claim except for me, that way it's not a mass claim"?

I mean, my Role Name isn't the exact name of a character in The Departed, but I know who it kind of is meant to be.

This really bothers me. It feels like mpolo is trying to twist cjdrum's words into something completely different than what he said. FoS: mpolo

Reflex-vote to protect one of your mafia misterk? You should explain why you find the reasoning absurd.

Really? I agree that he should explain his vote and reasons in more depth (though I understand what he means but it being absurd). But a reflex-vote to protect a scum-buddy? Just like that? That's insulting to his intelligence, surely.

GRAHHHHHH

[roband]

Mod-lol