Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

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Torchship
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Torchship » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:29 am UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
Or to be more specific, "forcing a female to do something she didn't really want to do" does not = rape?

Urm... what do you mean by this? Forcing my daughter to brush her teeth fulfills all of these requirements, but isn't rape by any stretch of the imagination...
podbaydoor wrote:Plus, Word of God has it that Galore is a lesbian, so this is rape of body, mind, and identity. That's a perfect example of one aspect of rape culture.

I am confused. How does Galore being a lesbian make Bond's rape of her any more or less heinous? What is "rape of mind" and "rape of identity" and how does Galore's lesbianism impact these?

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:36 am UTC

Torchship wrote:Urm... what do you mean by this? Forcing my daughter to brush her teeth fulfills all of these requirements, but isn't rape by any stretch of the imagination...

As a parent you have certain rights with regards to how you raise your child.

I was simply quoting the language used by the linked study; I am fairly certain that particular language was presented in the context of sexual acts when the study was performed.

Torchship wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Plus, Word of God has it that Galore is a lesbian, so this is rape of body, mind, and identity. That's a perfect example of one aspect of rape culture.

I am confused. How does Galore being a lesbian make Bond's rape of her any more or less heinous? What is "rape of mind" and "rape of identity" and how does Galore's lesbianism impact these?

Implying that a lesbian would become attracted to men if forced to be is denying a lesbian's orientation, on top of what is already denying her bodily autonomy and stated decisions.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Torchship » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:46 am UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
I was simply quoting the language used by the linked study; I am fairly certain that particular language was presented in the context of sexual acts when the study was performed.


Ahh okay, I see. I thought you were submitting that as a legitimate definition of 'rape'.

Aaeriele wrote:Implying that a lesbian would become attracted to men if forced to be is denying a lesbian's orientation, on top of what is already denying her bodily autonomy and stated decisions.


I'd be extremely hesitant about claiming that James Bond films imply any such thing with only a single data point. Does Bond have a history of converting lesbians to heterosexuality based on his manly charisma alone in the other films (it's been years since I watched any of them, so I dunno). With only the single instance, it doesn't seem right to condemn the Bond films for that particular crime (though they're guilty of plenty of others), when they could simply have been depicting a lesbian with a lot of latent bisexuality. If there is a trend, however, it's pretty obvious that they are implying what you say.
I'm still not entirely sure how this qualifies as a rape of anything, though.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Vash » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:04 am UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:So, you're arguing that forced sex does not = rape?


No.

Vash wrote:(based on the metric of forced sex, which is unclear in the sense that people can also mean forced in the sense of "my mom forced me to go to the supermarket" rather than "someone gave me roofies and viagra, and then had sex with me even though I didn't want to.")


In one case, "force" is used metaphorically. It's a common usage.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:58 am UTC

If your mom is forcing you to have sex with her, then that's wrong also...

Seriously though, it doesn't matter if force means 'hold a knife to throat', or 'spike drink', or 'guilt-trip', or 'ask repetitively until a no becomes a yes', or 'blackmail'. It's still rape.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Torchship » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:58 pm UTC

dedalus wrote:... or 'ask repetitively until a no becomes a yes', ... It's still rape.


I disagree. While asking repetitively is a million different kinds of harassment, it's not rape. As long as there's no threatening elements to the asking (any significant threatening overtones make the eventual success rape, but it is only the threats (intentional or unintentional) that make it rape, not the repeated asking), any decision that the askee makes is made of their own free will (EDIT: excluding such absurdities as asking once a minute for a month, which certainly qualifies as duress. I was thinking more of situations that spanned a single night or longer with longer between requests. If the asking starts to significantly (as in the previous "once a minute for a month" example) decrease your quality of life, then it's probably also duress), and is hence not rape. Again, such behaviour is obviously harassment and should be condemned as such but it is not rape and calling it such is ludicrous.

However, I think we're a little off-topic...

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:05 pm UTC

Vash wrote:
Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:So, you're arguing that forced sex does not = rape?


No.


Vash wrote: Again, the problem (and the reason I said up to) with the study I was referring to (http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/malamut ... 3JRP17.pdf) was that the wording used in the study was ambiguous. It said "forced sex," which at first glance seems totally accurate, but at closer inspection is ambiguous (in the way I have already mentioned).


If "forced sex" is an ambiguous term to describe rape, than "forced sex" necessarily does not equal rape (otherwise, your argument is nonsensical). So if you argue that "forced sex" is an ambiguous term to describe rape, you really are arguing that "forced sex" doesn't equal rape.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby mmmcannibalism » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:06 pm UTC

guilt-trip' 'blackmail


Seriously? Your going to count being an ass as commiting rape?

On the semantic discussion; I could be wrong but I certainly see how using forced instead of just saying rape could at least slightly increase the reported incidence. Granted, I'm not sure how this interacts with something such as rapes being under reported in the study because of people not counting things like being too drunk to consent.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:09 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
guilt-trip' 'blackmail
Seriously? Your going to count being an ass as commiting rape?
Emotional (or "real") blackmail goes a bit beyond "being an ass". If you significantly reduce someone's practical ability to choose not to have sex with you, you're engaging in pretty rapey behavior, even if it doesn't cross a line into rape-by-the-legal-definition territory.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Роберт » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:On the semantic discussion; I could be wrong but I certainly see how using forced instead of just saying rape could at least slightly increase the reported incidence.
I could see this too. I see this as potentially making it more accurate. Forced sex is rape. If someone would report forced sex when they wouldn't report rape, phrasing it as "forced sex" is the correct decision.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Chen » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:46 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
guilt-trip' 'blackmail


Seriously? Your going to count being an ass as commiting rape?


Well blackmail is already illegal so I imagine it would make the jump fairly easily to rape (if the value you were getting for the blackmail were sex). Guilt tripping I'd need to agree is more of just assholish behavior though.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Vash » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:58 pm UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:If "forced sex" is an ... doesn't equal rape.


My point was that the non-metaphorical definition does describe rape, and the metaphorical one does not. Since you were writing literally, we have no disagreement. I thought you might have not been writing so literally.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:30 pm UTC

Vash wrote:
Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:If "forced sex" is an ... doesn't equal rape.


My point was that the non-metaphorical definition does describe rape, and the metaphorical one does not. Since you were writing literally, we have no disagreement. I thought you might have not been writing so literally.


>blinks<

Since when can "forced sex" be a metaphor for...anything?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby netcrusher88 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:48 pm UTC

Vash, could you not eviscerate posts when you quote them? It breaks up the flow of conversation if you have to scroll halfway up the page to read a post.

I also want to know what you're on about with metaphors and whatever that... I don't understand how it follows. Going back to the study though - the point of studies which ask about someone being forced to have sex is that you will get different responses than if you say rape. Not that they are different things, but that people don't get it. Or at least that's always what I assumed the point was. I could be wrong.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:54 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:Vash, could you not eviscerate posts when you quote them? It breaks up the flow of conversation if you have to scroll halfway up the page to read a post.

I also want to know what you're on about with metaphors and whatever that... I don't understand how it follows. Going back to the study though - the point of studies which ask about someone being forced to have sex is that you will get different responses than if you say rape. Not that they are different things, but that people don't get it. Or at least that's always what I assumed the point was. I could be wrong.


No, I agree, but Vash said the language itself was vague, and that's why people didn't/don't get it.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby dedalus » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:57 pm UTC

@Torchship: Yeah, I'll agree that it's a grey area. There are going to be cases where I'd dare say it *is*, and cases where I'd say it isn't. Either way, the point is that just because 'force' doesn't involve physical coercion etc. doesn't make it not rape.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Vash » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:05 am UTC

Vash wrote:
Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
Vash wrote:
Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:So, you're arguing that forced sex does not = rape?


No.


Vash wrote: Again, the problem (and the reason I said up to) with the study I was referring to (http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/malamut ... 3JRP17.pdf) was that the wording used in the study was ambiguous. It said "forced sex," which at first glance seems totally accurate, but at closer inspection is ambiguous (in the way I have already mentioned).


If "forced sex" is an ambiguous term to describe rape, than "forced sex" necessarily does not equal rape (otherwise, your argument is nonsensical). So if you argue that "forced sex" is an ambiguous term to describe rape, you really are arguing that "forced sex" doesn't equal rape.


My point was that the non-metaphorical definition does describe rape, and the metaphorical one does not. Since you were writing literally, we have no disagreement. I thought you might have not been writing so literally.


Vash wrote:
Vash wrote:(based on the metric of forced sex, which is unclear in the sense that people can also mean forced in the sense of "my mom forced me to go to the supermarket" rather than "someone gave me roofies and viagra, and then had sex with me even though I didn't want to.")


In one case, "force" is used metaphorically. It's a common usage.


lol, I'm quoting me quoting me.

Not eviscerated enough for you? That should answer all of your questions. Personally, I find it impossible to read threads with 10 deep paragraphs long quotations, but there's probably a happier medium than trimming posts to identifiers.

People often say "forced" and literally don't even mean it. That was my point. It's a common thing in a personal context, which this also is. People who haven't been primed by 5 years of internet discussion on rape do not think the same way. Even if they have been primed in such a way, they might muse about the fact that there are many separate uses of the word "force." This is why, again, that you need to present specific situations. It reveals a pattern more in-depth anyway. You don't actually know what "force" means to different people when asking about it (you might go, oh, but it's obvious to me. Ask a bunch of different people and see the answers they give. Not just your friends. And no priming with predefinition or examples), and there is obvious variation in its usage.

I personally believe that people probably think rape under a different name is acceptable, but this study certainly doesn't demonstrate that with any certainty or precision.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby netcrusher88 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:18 am UTC

You want to trim to the important parts, trim to the important parts. But come on, let it at least be a complete sentence fragment (this compound noun brought to you by the Ministry of Ambiguity Department).

Metaphor doesn't make sense for what you're describing. "Do x or punishment y" is force. "Come to the store or you're not going out tonight" is force.

"Sleep with me or I'm leaving you" is force, and what studies like that are designed to highlight - and what we're talking about as a part of rape culture - is that a lot of people don't see it as rape.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:49 am UTC

Vash wrote:People often say "forced" and literally don't even mean it.


A) That's not a metaphor.
B) Even if it was (and it's not) - the fact that people misuse a word sometimes (or use a word metaphorically) doesn't make it a possible metaphor anytime that word is in a sentence somewhere.
C) EVEN IF both A and B are untrue, I still fail to see how the phrase "forced sex" is or can be a metaphor for anything, and therefore how it can possibly said to be vague wording (the matter of whether people differ in their responses to different terminology is a separate matter altogether from the question of whether the terminologies are vague or ambiguous).
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Vash » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:23 am UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:A) That's not a metaphor.
B) Even if it was (and it's not) - the fact that people misuse a word sometimes (or use a word metaphorically) doesn't make it a possible metaphor anytime that word is in a sentence somewhere.
C) EVEN IF both A and B are untrue, I still fail to see how the phrase "forced sex" is or can be a metaphor for anything, and therefore how it can possibly said to be vague wording (the matter of whether people differ in their responses to different terminology is a separate matter altogether from the question of whether the terminologies are vague or ambiguous).


A. One doesn't mean a metaphor literally. It also indeed is used in a metaphorical sense. It is also used as a meaningless statement (two separate uses). I am more talking about the first.
B. If it's a common usage, yes it does.
C. Then you didn't look at the examples, didn't think hard enough, or are just being stalwart. I'm out of energy to elaborate this. I could give you 20 examples, but I don't particularly care to at the moment.
D. Checking the wording of the study again, it's actually not terribly ambiguous.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:45 am UTC

Vash wrote:
Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:A) That's not a metaphor.
B) Even if it was (and it's not) - the fact that people misuse a word sometimes (or use a word metaphorically) doesn't make it a possible metaphor anytime that word is in a sentence somewhere.
C) EVEN IF both A and B are untrue, I still fail to see how the phrase "forced sex" is or can be a metaphor for anything, and therefore how it can possibly said to be vague wording (the matter of whether people differ in their responses to different terminology is a separate matter altogether from the question of whether the terminologies are vague or ambiguous).


A. One doesn't mean a metaphor literally. It also indeed is used in a metaphorical sense. It is also used as a meaningless statement (two separate uses). I am more talking about the first.
B. If it's a common usage, yes it does.
C. Then you didn't look at the examples, didn't think hard enough, or are just being stalwart. I'm out of energy to elaborate this. I could give you 20 examples, but I don't particularly care to at the moment.
D. Checking the wording of the study again, it's actually not terribly ambiguous.


A) All I'm saying is that "saying (something) when they literally don't even mean it" is not metaphorical usage
B) Um...by that logic since people sometimes say "more fun than a barrel of monkeys" every time I hear the word "monkeys" I should immediately think that these are hypothetical, idiomatic monkeys.
C) Hit me. I'm quite interested to hear what else "forced sex" could mean.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Vash » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:48 am UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
Vash wrote:
Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:A) That's not a metaphor.
B) Even if it was (and it's not) - the fact that people misuse a word sometimes (or use a word metaphorically) doesn't make it a possible metaphor anytime that word is in a sentence somewhere.
C) EVEN IF both A and B are untrue, I still fail to see how the phrase "forced sex" is or can be a metaphor for anything, and therefore how it can possibly said to be vague wording (the matter of whether people differ in their responses to different terminology is a separate matter altogether from the question of whether the terminologies are vague or ambiguous).


A. One doesn't mean a metaphor literally. It also indeed is used in a metaphorical sense. It is also used as a meaningless statement (two separate uses). I am more talking about the first.
B. If it's a common usage, yes it does.
C. Then you didn't look at the examples, didn't think hard enough, or are just being stalwart. I'm out of energy to elaborate this. I could give you 20 examples, but I don't particularly care to at the moment.
D. Checking the wording of the study again, it's actually not terribly ambiguous.


A) All I'm saying is that "saying (something) when they literally don't even mean it" is not metaphorical usage
B) Um...by that logic since people sometimes say "more fun than a barrel of monkeys" every time I hear the word "monkeys" I should immediately think that these are hypothetical, idiomatic monkeys.
C) Hit me. I'm quite interested to hear what else "forced sex" could mean.


A. That's not the definition of a metaphor, but how is it exclusive from it?
B and C. No, because no one ever says "more fun than a barrel of monkeys," where "monkeys" is metaphorical. Whereas, someone could say "I forced her (or him) to have sex with me" just the same way someone could say "I forced her (or him) to have Cheetos with me."

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Cheezwhiz Jenkins » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:13 am UTC

Vash wrote:
Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:
Vash wrote:
Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:A) That's not a metaphor.
B) Even if it was (and it's not) - the fact that people misuse a word sometimes (or use a word metaphorically) doesn't make it a possible metaphor anytime that word is in a sentence somewhere.
C) EVEN IF both A and B are untrue, I still fail to see how the phrase "forced sex" is or can be a metaphor for anything, and therefore how it can possibly said to be vague wording (the matter of whether people differ in their responses to different terminology is a separate matter altogether from the question of whether the terminologies are vague or ambiguous).


A. One doesn't mean a metaphor literally. It also indeed is used in a metaphorical sense. It is also used as a meaningless statement (two separate uses). I am more talking about the first.
B. If it's a common usage, yes it does.
C. Then you didn't look at the examples, didn't think hard enough, or are just being stalwart. I'm out of energy to elaborate this. I could give you 20 examples, but I don't particularly care to at the moment.
D. Checking the wording of the study again, it's actually not terribly ambiguous.


A) All I'm saying is that "saying (something) when they literally don't even mean it" is not metaphorical usage
B) Um...by that logic since people sometimes say "more fun than a barrel of monkeys" every time I hear the word "monkeys" I should immediately think that these are hypothetical, idiomatic monkeys.
C) Hit me. I'm quite interested to hear what else "forced sex" could mean.


A. That's not the definition of a metaphor, but how is it exclusive from it?
B and C. No, because no one ever says "more fun than a barrel of monkeys," where "monkeys" is metaphorical. Whereas, someone could say "I forced her (or him) to have sex with me" just the same way someone could say "I forced her (or him) to have Cheetos with me."


A) If something doesn't fit a definition, you can't say that it still fits the definition.
B/C) Ummmm...honest question, do you know what metaphors are? In the phrase "more fun than a barrel of monkeys" the monkeys are not literal; when people say that of *course* the monkeys are metaphorical. Wikipedia defines "Metaphor" thusly:

A metaphor is a literary figure of speech that uses an image, story or tangible thing to represent a less tangible thing or some intangible quality or idea.


If a person accused of rape says "I forced them to have sex with me," this is a clear and unambiguous confession of rape; it is not questioned whether that might be a metaphor and actually mean "consensual sex" and therefore actually be a declaration of innocence. Nobody can reasonably construe the statement "I forced them to have sex with me" as saying "I had consensual sex with somebody" (and, in fact, nobody *does*). To argue otherwise is to argue that "forced sex" can reasonably be construed in any other way than "rape."
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Vash » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:36 am UTC

Cheezwhiz Jenkins wrote:A) If something doesn't fit a definition, you can't say that it still fits the definition.
B/C) Ummmm...honest question, do you know what metaphors are? In the phrase "more fun than a barrel of monkeys" the monkeys are not literal; when people say that of *course* the monkeys are metaphorical. Wikipedia defines "Metaphor" thusly:


A) I didn't. I was unclear though. How is a metaphor exclusive from the statement I made?
B) Are you a troll? (I doubt it. You seem more interested in the perfect use of vocabulary) First of all, I misread your post. "Monkeys" is not used alone. That's the problem with that argument. Second, "more fun than a barrel of monkeys" is metaphorical. "Monkeys" is not a metaphor within the metaphor. What about the word "monkeys" is not "an image, story or tangible thing"? How could it not be used alone as a metaphor? (not that it is in any common usage) Perhaps "force" is too abstract to be a metaphor, however. Then again, also from Wikipedia:
Metaphor may also be used for any rhetorical figures of speech that achieve their effects via association, comparison or resemblance.
Maybe it is just hyperbole (also a metaphor in the broader sense according to Wikipedia). It's not really the same thing though. Do I really have to be this accurate? You can't understand what I am saying at all even if my vocabulary is slightly misused? Could you at least suggest an alternative word that describes my meaning better? As far as I know, metaphor is as close as it gets. I will also look myself.

According to OED, it can also be a "descriptive word or phrase" that "is transferred to an object or action different from, but analogous to, that to which it is literally applicable." I suppose "I forced them" is not quite a descriptive word or phrase, and if you say "forced sex" it is not the same colloquialism. By some definitions it does not matter, though. I would also still like to see a better word. Edit: "Catachresis"?

I guess you should say if it's not right. It's a good thing. It's a good thing to think more about it and do an accurate job. I just would appreciate a recognition that you understand my meaning as well.

E?)
If a person accused of rape says "I forced them to have sex with me," this is a clear and unambiguous confession of rape;it is not questioned whether that might be a metaphor and actually mean "consensual sex" and therefore actually be a declaration of innocence.Nobody can reasonably construe the statement "I forced them to have sex with me" as saying "I had consensual sex with somebody" (and, in fact, nobody *does*). To argue otherwise is to argue that "forced sex" can reasonably be construed in any other way than "rape."


I've heard "force" used for other things sexual in a non-literal sense. No one indicated feeling violated or even unduly pressured. It was exactly what I described. So why not?

It's this simple: someone originally didn't want to do something, but they were willing to change their mind without feeling unduly pressured, or anything else. This is blown up to "force," even though it is not really meant. It is also far more extreme than the actual situation.

Edit: no one in this study is accused of rape. That's the point. The context of the word "rape" has been removed to see if people really approve of rape even though they say they do not. If this was a rape trial, I'd agree with you.

That said, the actual wording of the study was "sexual force," which is not "forced them to have sex" but a sexual form of force. It's unambiguous. Why are we still discussing this?

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Azrael » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:23 pm UTC

Vash wrote:That said, the actual wording of the study was "sexual force," which is not "forced them to have sex" but a sexual form of force. It's unambiguous. Why are we still discussing this?


No.

The person who started this little tangent by failing to read the source material and wandering off about some hypothetical flaw in the study due to metaphorical language does not get to use that line.

That being said, it's time to return to the topic.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Aaeriele » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:00 pm UTC

Vash wrote:That said, the actual wording of the study was "sexual force," which is not "forced them to have sex" but a sexual form of force. It's unambiguous. Why are we still discussing this?


Er, no? The exact wording was what I quoted on the previous page:

Aaeriele wrote:Or to be more specific, "forcing a female to do something she didn't really want to do" does not = rape?
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Vash » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:26 am UTC

Azrael wrote:No.

The person who started this little tangent by failing to read the source material and wandering off about some hypothetical flaw in the study due to metaphorical language does not get to use that line.

That being said, it's time to return to the topic.


Yeah, true. I went much longer on the erroneous tangent than Cheezwiz did after missing what I said. Sorry. I also didn't check that study before importing that tangent that someone started up in a News & Articles thread, and I ran too far with it. I won't be so careless next time.

Ninja edit: I feel I have to set the record straight. Admitting I was wrong without a good reason sets a bad precedent, in my view. First of all, I did mess up how I said. That I still think is worthy of apology. Second of all, I still think that an admonishment (a less harsh and absolute one) was warranted since Cheezwiz jerked me around for a page. Done. Not bumping for OT edit.

Anyway, now to add an important finding from another study. I can't get a full-text right now (if someone could, that would be great), but it is possible that this is a very telling study. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1981.tb01068.x/abstract (Sanday, P. R. (1981), The Socio-Cultural Context of Rape: A Cross-Cultural Study. Journal of Social Issues, 37: 5–27. doi: 10.1111/j.1540-4560.1981.tb01068.x) Basically, to quote the abstract:
This research departs from the familiar assumption that rape is an inherent tendency of male nature, and begins with the assumption that human sexual behavior, though based in a biological need, is an expression of cultural forces. The incidence, meaning, and function of rape in a cross-cultural sample of tribal societies are presented. Two general hypotheses guide the research: first, the incidence of rape varies cross-culturally; second, a high incidence of rape is embedded in a distinguishably different cultural configuration than a low incidence of rape. The data suggest that rape is part of a cultural configuration which includes interpersonal violence, male dominance, and sexual separation. Rape is interpreted as the sexual expression of these forces in societies where the harmony between men and their environment has been severely disrupted.
This should speak for itself as one piece of evidence that could support rape culture being real. I would have to say wait for the full-text to see the limitations more clearly. Overall, I think the research points in the same direction anyway.
Last edited by Vash on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:31 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:"Sleep with me or I'm leaving you" is force, and what studies like that are designed to highlight - and what we're talking about as a part of rape culture - is that a lot of people don't see it as rape.

I have to argue that in that particular case, there is no force being applied. There is an ultimatum, but "or I'm leaving you" is a perfectly viable alternative. The issuer of that particular ultimatum does indeed have the right to leave the relationship if unsatisfied, just like anyone else, and to say they do not is to infringe on their autonomy. Nobody is forcing the reciever of the ultimatum to pick one way or the other, so while it may be assholeish behavior, it is certainly not the use of force. This is not, in fact, what these studies were meant to highlight. These studies were meant to highlight cases which *were* forced, not illustrate issues of people being assholes and then equating their assholishness to rape (emotional abuse is another story entirely, and one that deserves to be talked about seperately). When you include examples such as that in your definition of rape, you create situations where the "rapist" did something that would not be considered unethical from the viewpoint that personal autonomy takes precedence (specifically, the "rapist's" right to leave an unsatisfying relationship being exercised).

That said, the situation of the same person threatening to post compromising photos of the victim if sex is witheld is in fact, coerced sex, or rape. The difference lies in whose freedoms take precedence. In the first case, the threatener can ethically carry out their threat, as they do in fact have the right to leave the relationship, and has the right to say what the conditions of leaving are. In the latter case, the threatener cannot do so ethically.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:37 pm UTC

Why do you think it is appropriate to separate emotional abuse from rape that goes hand in hand with it?

Hint- it's because you're a part of rape culture.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby setzer777 » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:49 am UTC

Re: "Sleep with me or I'll leave you"

If one does end up in the unfortunate circumstance of breaking up with someone because of lack of sex, what's the safest way to do that?

My guess would be that you should say something like: "we should break up because we don't want the same things/we are sexually incompatible". If the person then says "No, wait, I'll have sex with you", you should either break up anyway (best course of action IMO), or should proceed with extreme caution (give them a lot of time to think it over, discuss it a lot). If it really comes down to someone saying (in a way that they've clearly thought it through): "I'd prefer to wait but I'd rather have sex now than have you leave."...eh...still seems like a bad situation to me. Better to find somebody who really wants the same things you do.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:37 am UTC

I never said it was a good situation. I fully agree that it's a bad situation, and probably should be the cue that this is a really bad and probably abusive relationship. However, while rape and emotional abuse may be related, they are not the same thing and should not be considered as such. If you include borderline cases as rape in which the use of force is debatable, you risk reducing the impact of the term.
Right now, the term has "creepy man in the back alleys" connotation (connotation!=dictionary definition). This means people, when considering the idea of themselves as potential rapists associate themselves with the creepy men in back alleys. This is probably a good thing, as it is an association you don't want attached to your self image.
There is, however, a second mental image people will associate with rape, and that is "person unfairly accused of rape". This is the mental image that potential rapists will attach to themselves if they see any way at all to rationalize themselves as being in the right. In this particular case, there is a weak justification that the threatener at least does not shoulder all the blame, namely that they offered a choice (sex&relationship or ~sex&~relationship). We don't want potential rapists to be able to easily rationalize to themselves that what they did wasn't that bad. Outright denial that they committed rape at least plants the seed of the idea in the back of their ming. Acceptance of that fact will probably result in a radical shift in worldview. The idea that they committed what was technically rape, but in their mind was not wrong devalues the meaning of the word "rape" and can have very strong effects contrary to the goal of making people aware of the damage they are causing.
By the way, I fully agree that I am a part of the rape culture I live in. I do my best to recognize and correct any attitudes that support rape culture, but I am under no illusion that I have completely purged my mind of any wrong notions about rape. I am not entirely convinced that the victim is always completely blameless, though I do believe that is the case the vast majority of the time. In this particular case, I find myself sympathizing fairly strongly with the one who would be committing the rape by your definition. I have been in a destructive relationship that was on the way to ending, and my girlfriend offered sex in the hopes that I would stay. (I refused, for various reasons) I am well aware of the ramifications and emotional consequences of the decision I didn't make (there was a reason I didn't make it), but I don't believe that what would have happened in this situation could be described as well by the term "rape" as the term "regrettable sex". I may be simply trying to rationalize to myself, and if I am, than please tell me. I am not the best judge when I am personally involved.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Enuja » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:07 am UTC

fr00t wrote:
sigsfried wrote:sigsfried's story about two people who pieced together a drunken night and mutually decided that one had raped the other
This story indicates something about our society, but not that we have a culture where rape is acceptable; rather, the idea that the man is ultimately responsible for any sexual conduct, and a lack of consent falls squarely on his shoulders. If neither party has any malice aforethought and the unfortunate circumstances leading to "non-consensual sexual conduct" were, at the very least, evenly split between both parties, how can there be rape? I find it disgusting that they both came to the conclusion that they should turn the guy in to the cops, rather than mutually apologizing and moving on with their lives.

As long as sex is a game where one party is "defending" and one "attacking" there will always be a vast grey area that you can call coercion (because it isn't actually a symmetrical agreement), and what is necessary for consent will be hard to pin down. It's one of the unfortunate results of our particular evolutionary path, and something that I hope we can move beyond, but the scope of the problem seems broader than rape culture.
fr00t, I think you have some good insight into what "rape culture" actually is, but then you classify it as something other than rape culture. When people use the phrase "rape culture" we don't just mean culture that celebrates rape: we also mean culture that interferes with full, informed consent for sexual behavior. I think you're completely wrong with pinning these rape promoting aspects of behavior and expectation as evolutionary, but that's a discussion for another thread. Assuming that men want sex, women don't, and sex is heterosexual, all interfere with consenting and communicating consent, and are therefore important parts of "rape culture".


==============


I think I'm using quotes around "rape culture" because I'm not a big fan of the phrase: I prefer to talk about aspects of culture that promote rape (or rape promoting culture). I think "rape promoting culture" is more clearly a broad category, so people can more easily agree that aspects of our culture promote rape (or interfere with consent), so this phrase makes it easier to get the help of more people in changing the parts of our cultures that promote rape.

===============


Re: "Sleep with me or I'll leave you"
I think that this concept is both something that can be rape, and also the best way to get rid of many of the rape promoting aspects of our cultures.

First, I'll make this rape.
A and B live together and have debts and obligations together. B is employed outside of the home, A does home keeping. B tells A that they must have sex, this very instant, in a way that A is not interested in, or B will leave A and remove all financial support. That's attempted rape on the part of B, rape if B gets what B wants.

And now, as a rape prevention.
A and B have had sex a few times, are trying to figure out if they want to have a relationship, and have each separately decided that they want to be monogamous. A explains specific sex acts that A needs to be sexually happy, gives B plenty of time to think about it and work towards it, but explains that A and B can't be together if B doesn't want to do this specific sex act with A on a routine basis. While the rape prevention here might not be obvious at first glance, this is a situation were sex is being communicated about, and consent is being explicitly asked. And, in my opinion, everything that increases the power and importance of consent decreases the likelihood of rape.

Without people deciding what type of sex they want, with whom, when, and then communicating it, I think that rape is inevitable.


==============


Unequal power and opportunity is one of the most powerful way cultures promote rape. But another powerful part of culture that I think promotes rape is the expectation that sex *must* be tied with other things, including love and economic household arrangement (that sex is inherently about love and family creation). I think that the only think that *must* accompany sex is consent. When other complications (love, rent) automatically come with sex, or when sex is derided if it doesn't come with these other complications, that makes consent difficult. The expectation that sex is supposed to be about love makes people who want one night stands come up with excuses for consent (drinking, a narrative of overwhelming need that *must* be sated), because they don't want to think of themselves as the "bad" type of people who have sex without love.

Let me throw something out here that I suspect will be unpopular, but I think is worth thinking about. I think that the cultural expectation that people should be monogamous promotes rape, because it makes it necessary for people to get all of the sex they want with one person. And, for almost every single pair of people, their sexual desires don't exactly match up. So you've either got to consent to something you aren't a big fan of, or go without. That seems pretty toxic to me. Now, I was in a monogamous relationship for 7 years, and I was neither raped nor did I rape in that time. But both my SO and I did sex acts we weren't particularly interested in, and now that we are not monogamous any more, we don't do that any more, and I think we are both happier for it. I think any parts of culture that promote specific, clear consent for sex work strongly against rape. When consent is usually complicated, then it will be easier for people to go over the line and have sex with someone who does not consent.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby mmmcannibalism » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:07 am UTC

Let me throw something out here that I suspect will be unpopular, but I think is worth thinking about. I think that the cultural expectation that people should be monogamous promotes rape, because it makes it necessary for people to get all of the sex they want with one person. And, for almost every single pair of people, their sexual desires don't exactly match up. So you've either got to consent to something you aren't a big fan of, or go without. That seems pretty toxic to me. Now, I was in a monogamous relationship for 7 years, and I was neither raped nor did I rape in that time. But both my SO and I did sex acts we weren't particularly interested in, and now that we are not monogamous any more, we don't do that any more, and I think we are both happier for it. I think any parts of culture that promote specific, clear consent for sex work strongly against rape. When consent is usually complicated, then it will be easier for people to go over the line and have sex with someone who does not consent.


An interesting idea, but I think it requires a very large proportion of rapists to be people who have been in a relationship for a decent amount of time.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby A_pathetic_lizardmnan » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:36 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
Let me throw something out here that I suspect will be unpopular, but I think is worth thinking about. I think that the cultural expectation that people should be monogamous promotes rape, because it makes it necessary for people to get all of the sex they want with one person. And, for almost every single pair of people, their sexual desires don't exactly match up. So you've either got to consent to something you aren't a big fan of, or go without. That seems pretty toxic to me. Now, I was in a monogamous relationship for 7 years, and I was neither raped nor did I rape in that time. But both my SO and I did sex acts we weren't particularly interested in, and now that we are not monogamous any more, we don't do that any more, and I think we are both happier for it. I think any parts of culture that promote specific, clear consent for sex work strongly against rape. When consent is usually complicated, then it will be easier for people to go over the line and have sex with someone who does not consent.


An interesting idea, but I think it requires a very large proportion of rapists to be people who have been in a relationship for a decent amount of time.


Do we have any statistics that would show this one way or the other? Stereotypes are not necessarily the best tool for this job.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Enuja » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:50 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:An interesting idea, but I think it requires a very large proportion of rapists to be people who have been in a relationship for a decent amount of time.
No, not at all. It requires that rapists live in a society where monogamy is expected. Even if you've never been in a relationship of any kind, you know that all of your sexual desires are SUPPOSED to be met by one person. If you can't imagine that working, you are left in a situation where society tells you that sex is important, but also that you aren't going to get what you want. This could make some people very angry, and make them want to take out their anger on the people who are perceived as the reason the perpetrator can't get what they want. Monogamy as a cultural norm also increases the number of people who don't get any sex at all (because those who might sometimes get laid don't get to get laid at all).

A_pathetic_lizardmnan: are you asking me for statistics? I don't have any: I'm just throwing out an idea about something that I think is a rape promoting part of my culture, that I expect most people would not immediately point to when they think of "rape culture". I have a suspicion that it does increase rape, but my real point in including that paragraph was to illustrate the idea that cultural expectations that aren't about rape could conceivably lead to more rape, via complex interactions with other parts of culture and as unintended consequences.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby mmmcannibalism » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:57 am UTC

Enuja wrote:
mmmcannibalism wrote:An interesting idea, but I think it requires a very large proportion of rapists to be people who have been in a relationship for a decent amount of time.
No, not at all. It requires that rapists live in a society where monogamy is expected. Even if you've never been in a relationship of any kind, you know that all of your sexual desires are SUPPOSED to be met by one person. If you can't imagine that working, you are left in a situation where society tells you that sex is important, but also that you aren't going to get what you want. This could make some people very angry, and make them want to take out their anger on the people who are perceived as the reason the perpetrator can't get what they want. Monogamy as a cultural norm also increases the number of people who don't get any sex at all (because those who might sometimes get laid don't get to get laid at all).

A_pathetic_lizardmnan: are you asking me for statistics? I don't have any: I'm just throwing out an idea about something that I think is a rape promoting part of my culture, that I expect most people would not immediately point to when they think of "rape culture". I have a suspicion that it does increase rape, but my real point in including that paragraph was to illustrate the idea that cultural expectations that aren't about rape could conceivably lead to more rape, via complex interactions with other parts of culture and as unintended consequences.


Which is fine, but without statistics that give it some credence, I could just as easily speculate in the opposite direction about ways polygamy being common could increase instances of rape.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Enuja » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:26 am UTC

Hell yeah, especially if you're talking about compulsory polygyny or polyandry. There are all kinds of different ways to create power imbalances, misfits, and rage in society. I'm not trying to argue that monogamy is inherently the most rape-causing of all possible expectation systems. In fact, in some ways I'm trying to argue that any universal expectation is going to make misfits that just can't deal with the societal expectations. When I worry about monogamy and rape, it's universal, compulsory monogamy that I'm worried about. When people are choosing to be monogamous, they are often choosing to have sex for their partner because their partner is into it, even though they didn't start out horny and into it at this very instant. That doesn't have to be bad for consent, because you are choosing to be good to your partner. But if you think that monogamy is the only way to go, that for your partner to be sexually happy you've got it make this happen for your partner, then I think this makes consent far too fraught.

I don't think statistics for this question can currently exist, because I think the compulsory nature of monogamy is confounded in current societies with other variables that are also very important for creating rape culture.

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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby Rainsborough » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:46 pm UTC

I'm astounded that throughout the entire thread no-one has bothered to legally define rape and consent. I fully realise that the board is pretty international, but still a definition would be really useful. So I will supply one, please note that all the following applies only to English Criminal Law, however this being the model for pretty much all legal systems within the Angloshere I would be surprised if the definitions vary hugely. I will point out any discrepancies I know of as I go along.

Apologies for the graphic nature of the definition.

The Sexual Offences Act (2003) [which replaced the Sexual Offences Act (1956) with Amendments from 1976 and 1994 and repealed the Sexual Offences Act (1997)] states:

A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.


The Offence in question is rape. The act also creates an offence call Assault by Penetration which is where a person:

A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person (B) with a part of his body or anything else,
(b)the penetration is sexual,
(c)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents


Further we have a definition of sexual assault:

A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally touches another person (B),
(b)the touching is sexual,
(c)B does not consent to the touching, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.


Please note that you have to take he and his as gender neutral pronoun in this context.

I'd suggest that the definitions are fairly clear cut, with the only difficulty being the definition of the word consent.

Thankfully we have a whole tract of case law to define the term for us.

1. Consent must be real.
The fact that the victim apparently consented to the defendant's (nice neutral term eh?) act does not mean that the consent is legally valid. If the victim is a child or mentally disabled this apparent consent will not suffice because the victim is not judged to be qualified to understand the nature of the act. (In the United States having sex with a minor who apparently consents is called statutory rape. It is exactly the same thing it just has a special name.)

2. Honest belief in consent.
If the defendant honestly believed that the defendant was consenting then the defendant will have a good defence. However this does not apply if the defendant was voluntarily intoxicated.

Consent obtained by fraud.
Fraud does not necessarily negative any consent given. It will only do so if the victim has been deceived as to either i) the identity of the person or ii) the nature and quality of the act. To clarify the first scenario it doesn't mean if you say that you're an astronaut while chatting someone up and then consequently have sex with them it is rape, it does mean that if you impersonate say the victim's partner then that is rape. To explain the second scenario more clearly I will give a historical example where in the early 20th century a music teacher convinced his students to have sex with him by telling them it was a form of breathing exercise. The victims had been deceived as to the nature and quality of the act.

Consent obtained under duress
A threat to imprison or otherwise harm the victim if they did not 'consent' will invalidate consent. In this context harm can be understood to mean something like any hurt or injury that interferes with health or comfort this can be either physical or psychological.

That is pretty much it and as clear as I can make it. I apologise for the atrociously long post but I hoped I could settle a little bit about the arguments on what is rape. Personally I'm pretty happy with the legal definition but others may disagree.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:33 pm UTC

We haven't bothered legally defining rape because we know everyone is equally capable of finding out what the law says in their own location, and also because corner cases aren't really the point, and we're *mostly* agreed about things that aren't corner cases.
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Re: Rape Culture (Obvious Trigger Warning)

Postby nitePhyyre » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:18 pm UTC

Vash wrote:Basically, to quote the abstract:
This research departs from the familiar assumption that rape is an inherent tendency of male nature, and begins with the assumption that human sexual behavior, though based in a biological need, is an expression of cultural forces. The incidence, meaning, and function of rape in a cross-cultural sample of tribal societies are presented. Two general hypotheses guide the research: first, the incidence of rape varies cross-culturally; second, a high incidence of rape is embedded in a distinguishably different cultural configuration than a low incidence of rape. The data suggest that rape is part of a cultural configuration which includes interpersonal violence, male dominance, and sexual separation. Rape is interpreted as the sexual expression of these forces in societies where the harmony between men and their environment has been severely disrupted.
This should speak for itself as one piece of evidence that could support rape culture being real. I would have to say wait for the full-text to see the limitations more clearly. Overall, I think the research points in the same direction anyway.

I don't think anyone disputes what is in bold. But it is most definitely not a piece of evidence to support the existence of rape culture. Rape culture is not "A culture that creates sexually neurotic people, where that neurosis is expressed as rape." It is a culture where the acceptance of rape leads to more rape. From earlier in the thread:
Wikipedia wrote:Rape culture is a term used within women's studies and feminism, describing a culture in which rape and sexual violence against women are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or tolerate sexual violence against women. Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming and sexual objectification.


Enuja wrote:fr00t, I think you have some good insight into what "rape culture" actually is, but then you classify it as something other than rape culture. When people use the phrase "rape culture" we don't just mean culture that celebrates rape: we also mean culture that interferes with full, informed consent for sexual behavior.

Yes, yes they do. See above.


Meaux_Pas wrote:Why do you think it is appropriate to separate emotional abuse from rape that goes hand in hand with it?

Hint- it's because you're a part of rape culture.
Or perhaps because emotional abuse and rape aren't the same thing?

There has been a lot of this type of rhetoric in this thread. This concept where anyone disagreeing is a case in point of rape culture is extremely intellectually dishonest. For example:
Anyone who ever disagrees with me does so because they are a fucking idiot.
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