0969: "Delta-P"

This forum is for the individual discussion thread that goes with each new comic.

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

danix
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:51 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby danix » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:21 pm UTC

Piogre wrote:seems like a better use would be to use it to break falls, by putting the wardrobe horizontal at the base of a building, then your velocity is slowed WAY down and you're fine

but now I'm just thinking about portal physics...

You'd land in the snow, though your vertical speed would turn into horizontal speed. :shock:

Now you're thinking with portals! :D

Spectrum
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:10 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Spectrum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:28 pm UTC

Two important points that have been overlooked:

1) It would take a while for the wardrobe to sink 2 km, and the flow rate through the portal would increase relatively gradually. So the White Witch would probably have plenty of time to get away, but in any case, she definitely would know what hit her.

2) Following the dictum:

Only on Xkcd can you start a topic involving Hitler and people spend the better part of half a dozen pages arguing about the quality of Operating Systems.


I observe that C. S. Lewis' concept of parallel universes can be applied to the comparison of the Linux and BSD kernels.

JoeZ
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:35 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby JoeZ » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:32 pm UTC

Soralin wrote:Well if they had two separate timelines, and you had control over where each portal connected to, then you could do something like go through the portal, and reorient it to point back to the past of the other world, and step back through it.

It would be less that time moves faster on one side or the other, and more just a relationship between when you entered on one side, and when you exited on the other. Say for example, entering at time x on one side, would always result in ending up at time y on the other side, and entering at time x+1, would have you exiting at y+10. In that case, it's not so much that time is moving faster or slower on one side, rather, it's a function of when a portal leads to, dependent on when you enter. And the portal on the other side could have the inverse. I mean, I suppose it doesn't have to have the inverse, but if it didn't, then you'd end up with the problem that moving through the portal one way, and immediately going back through the other way, could have you end up some time forward, or backward, of when you first entered.

Alright, so for the sake of locality, and energy conservation, there has to be a forward, one-to-one mapping. I suppose that is reasonable. But Planck's constant (And consequentially Planck length, and therefore Planck time) must be very short indeed over there. And that has some interesting repercussions for quantum mechanics in Narnia... One must wonder if the human body, or even particles from our physical system, could even coexist with Narnia particles.
Soralin wrote:Well, anti-aging and repair mechanisms are useful to have around, although the anti-aging section may be set a little over-zealously here, although I suppose it could just be set to identify you and revert you back to the age or physical state that you entered with from that side, or such. And who knows how invasive an inter-dimensional portal actually is? I mean, if this is something that can move objects between different timelines, then using a workspace timeline, it could literally have all the time in the world to disassemble, reassemble, repair, record, etc., whatever it sends through, and make it appear seamless. And no matter how long or short such a thing would take, whatever is passing through could end up at the same time on the other side, and in the same state.

But could you cram 25 years of adult learning into a child's brain? Seems like the brain mapping would have to take hormonal changes into account — the end results of which might be sloppy. Also, if timelines must be matched 1-to-1, then in order to have infinite time, the workspace timeline needs to be a real universe with infinite negative entropy to fuel limitless operations on travelers...
Soralin wrote:Depends on how it works, it would definitely have to get the energy from somewhere. If that had to come entirely from the kinetic energy of what's entering, then it would be really hard to get most objects through. The two sides would have to be at practically equal elevation.

Not necessarily elevation, but equal gravitational force. Some of the constants are likely different in Narnia, but as long as acceleration "g" is the same at their exit as it is at the location of the wardrobe, no additional energy is needed.
Soralin wrote: I mean, if the gravity is the same, and if there's even 10m difference in elevation, an object would have to be moving through it at at least the same speed as it would take to launch something 10m skyward here on Earth.

Of course, if the workspace can assemble anything into any state, it can just move objects between gravitational potential energies at will, without conscious observers even able to notice a seam.
Soralin wrote: If that's the case, then no water at all would flow through if the opening on the other side was above sea level(assuming gravity is the same, and sea level in the same, and the radius of the other planet is the same, etc.). It would also mean that could could effectively disable the connection, or make it rather deadly, by moving one end up a couple stories in a building, or any other change in elevation, or from minor differences in local gravity.

On the other hand, if it's drawing power from some other source that shouldn't be a problem, and if you have a device that can connect universes, you have a lot of power options available to you, like setting up a connection to the inside of a star.

Well, I suppose that could provide a very significant amount of free energy for any device capable of linking universes. But why this machine, which we have determined must be capable of incredible and intelligent function, would allow large amounts of salt water to pass through, goes without explanation...

InfinityLink0 wrote:Another problem we need to consider when looking at this situation is whether gravity is conserved through the portals. In the game Portal it wasn't

If you listen to the developer commentary, play around in the game yourself,and view videos like the one below, you'll know that the physics in Portal is not really good canon for how portals should behave.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxFrifq6rsI
I can't go, this is too important. Someone is wrong on the internet!

SteevyT
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:41 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby SteevyT » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 pm UTC

So what would happen if you shot the Portal into the wardrobe, then dropped it in the ocean?

jbos
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:34 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby jbos » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:36 pm UTC

Decent comic, but the nerding here has glossed over the obvious point that the various portals in C.S. Lewis's Narnia books are not physical transporters but rather phenomenological translators between universes with significantly different physics. Some commentors have pointed out the issues of different time scales, but have not mentioned that these differences are not even linear! For example, between the events of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and Prince Caspian, centuries pass in Narnia, while less than a year passes on Earth. But then, before the events of The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, a similar amount of time passes on Earth but only a few years in Narnia. Then, in The Silver Chair we've got a gap of some months on Earth and decades in Narnia!

But that's just the start. The wardrobe is not the only passageway between Earth and Narnia. There are portals which are paintings, chairs, rings, ponds (these last two encountered in the prequel The Magician's Nephew) - and in Prince Caspian, the Pevensie children are simply transported with no evidence of threshold at all! It's clear from the text that the physical environment surrounding the portals (on either end) is unaffected by their use - only the specific beings who make use of them are moved. This is most blatantly obvious in the "Wood between the Worlds" that we are introduced to in The Magician's Nephew. Magic rings are used to travel to the Wood, but the children-protagonists soon realize that the Wood is itself not a fully "real" place, but simply a waiting room of sorts, with many exits to other worlds and times. And to get to them, they jump down into pools and emerge out into these different worlds! There's no conservation of time, space or momentum - just personally embodied conciousness.

So even though it's amusing (and comforting) to imagine that clever manipulation of physical force could be used to conquer existential evil, both our experience in this world and C.S. Lewis's ample hints in his texts make it clear that it just ain't gonna work that way.

Grant10k
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:30 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Grant10k » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:49 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:
Grant10k wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:
Grant10k wrote:Problem: Raising ocean levels due to climate change...

Speaking of fairy tales: Global warming. (don't call it "climate change"... During the height of Roman power the sea level was a least 2 feet higher. ... after the Ice age ... sea level was 3 yards or 9 feet higher ... Really what we need to worry about is tree huggers ...

:roll:

You are being dismissive lol. Extreme sacasm BTW and you were taking a subpar comic and making it less funny.

There's no question that I was being dismissive. In my defense, it's not easy to read subtle tonal inflections over text. You'e got to use these things -> :wink:

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:02 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:
Grog wrote:OT: Two recent studies show that:
a) Global warming is real (but this now accepted, because all along the centuries climate has changed)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 144716.htm
b) This is the first time in the last 20'000 years that temperature are rising in both emisphere, and not only one, without any major event involved (like volcano eruptions). The only possible explanation is the human impact on the carbon cycle:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 074532.htm

Whenever I see a study like this the temperatures are taken from different location over time. Once cited in antartic study as "recording site too cold to return to" You won't convince me and I won't convince you because simple data "interpretation" is proof enough for you the way the existence of scriptures is proof enough for a hard core Christian. Stop bringing this up, My reason for original posting that is in my previous posting.

Dude seriously what the fuck are you talking about?

E: By the way, that Science Daily article pisses me off. I hate it when the media looks at a single study and says "THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING." No, it doesn't; it's one study. The "global warming debate" wasn't closed due to the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature study any more than the "evolution debate" by the discovery of D. masillae.

ctristan
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 3:48 am UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby ctristan » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:58 pm UTC

Isn't this basically what happens at the beginning of The Dawn Treader anyway, only on a much larger scale and in reverse?

calvinhobbesliker
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:49 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby calvinhobbesliker » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:44 pm UTC

This is xkcdsucks' take on this comic:


Randall begins with Q=A*v, which says that the flow equals the area of opening times the speed of the water relative to the wardrobe. This is wrong, but compared with his future follies this is actually still pretty acceptable. Only now Randy needs to calculate that speed, and here he fails tremendously.

Randy assumes conservation of energy, which is usually a fine thing to assume when doing physics. He takes the initial, purely potential energy of the wardrobe as Ei=mgd .He takes the final, purely kinetic energy as Ef=1/2 mv^2 .Because he assumes conservation of energy, both quantities are equal and so he extracts v from that and finally gets Q=A*√(2gd).

Now, his whole process is rife with errors(the Q=A*v thing assumes both laminar flow and and an opening that is two-dimensional, none of which occur here,) but let's narrow it down to just two of the most obscene ones:

There is no conservation of energy here, you dumb fuck. Friction with water is a substantial, non-conservative force which does not allow you to use even actual fluid mechanics stuff such as Bernoulli's principle, let alone the high-school-level conservation-of-energy calculations shown above which Randy tries to pass off as science. If this was true, it could lead to all sorts of shit: a cylinder that is moving in such a liquid as Randall suggests would never come to a stop or even slow down, which is obviously a nonsensical result. This is what was known historically as Stokes' Paradox, this is why the concept of viscosity was introduced, and to top it off, this was all well known for 150 years or so. Do try and keep up, Randy. This would be okay, though, had Randy tried to find the speed of the wardrobe as it hit the water, but
Randy doesn't know how to use the concept of potential energy. This is some really elementary stuff. This is high-school level stuff, and Randy fails at it miserably. Randy tries to calculate the wardrobe's speed on the moment of impact with the water. He takes the potential energy as mgd, when d is the ocean depth. . To find the speed of impact he should take the height of the wardrobe relative to the sea level, and what he takes is the height of the wardrobe relative to the ocean floor. Therefore, the speed he would extract using the method shown above is not the speed of the wardrobe upon impact. What he gets is the speed of the wardrobe when it reaches depth d under the sea level, and even that is assuming friction with water is just as negligible as friction with air. This gives him a nonsensical result: Randy says that the deeper the ocean is, the more water would flow into the wardrobe- as d grows, so does the root of d. At the limit where the ocean depth approaches infinity, an infinite amount of water would flow into the wardrobe as soon as it hits the water. This is hideously, preposterously wrong. I really cannot stress out just how asinine this error is. No wonder this guy was kicked out of NASA.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Diadem » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:06 pm UTC

Wow, that rant was entertaining. What an idiot :)

The comic obviously gives the flow velocity once the wardrobe is at the ocean floor. Not the initial flow velocity. I don't know if he did his physics correctly, nor do i particulary care (it's a comic ffs!). But that xkcdsucks dude didn't even grasp the problem. He's not even wrong.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
SpringLoaded12
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:58 am UTC
Location: Guarding the Super Missile
Contact:

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby SpringLoaded12 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:27 pm UTC

Vrishna wrote:
BrianB wrote:BTW - This is "Chronicles of Narnia"


Which is probably slightly more popular here, but nevertheless was completely ignored by me ... Is it worth reading or watching?

Reading, yes. Watching, maybe. In terms of the order in which you're "supposed" to read them, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe comes first, but in terms of a fictional timeline, The Magician's Nephew comes first, though it's apparently second-to-last in the order you're "supposed" to read them.

Eebster the Great wrote:The "global warming debate" wasn't closed due to the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature study any more than the "evolution debate" by the discovery of D. masillae.

Wait... Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature study... B.E.S.T. study. That's brilliant :mrgreen:

calvinhobbesliker wrote:This is xkcdsucks' take on this comic:

*hugeass block of text removed for the sake of space*

I don't see how that blog even has any readers any more. At first it was poorly made MS Paint scribblings that were weak and immature parodies of xkcd strips (this has since dropped off the Internet apparently, I only saw it once), then it was critiques of the structure of the jokes, but now all they can complain about is the apparently slightly incorrect Physics of it, which misses the point ENTIRELY?
xkcdexplained is the same shit, and xkcdexplainedexplained is even more inappropriately named. It should've been called xkcdexplainedelaboratedwhilealsoswearingatxkcdandxkcdexplained.
It's fine to critique xkcd, but jabs at Randall are fairly pointless, and when you're a critic it sure helps to know how to provide a real, concise, informative critique instead of just ranting about nonsense.
"It's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a battlefield." "Opposite over hypotenuse, dipshit."

bavariati
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:29 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby bavariati » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:48 pm UTC

Headshrinker wrote:Lauching the wardrobe into space would destroy narnia with a vortex.

Charlie Stross had something similar in the Merchant Princes series - a depopulated futuristic Earth with a door-sized "portal" from ground-level to Earth orbit. One of the characters inadvertently opens the portal and can't close it.

IIRC, another character calculates that it'd take millennia for this to have a significant effect on the atmosphere.

ThoughtCriminal
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:24 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby ThoughtCriminal » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:40 am UTC

The humans used a similar trick in the Stargate series by dropping a gate into a red giant star that an enemy fleet was orbiting and "dialing" it to connect to a gate that was falling into a black hole. The idea was the sudden loss of matter in the giant star caused it to go super(?)-nova.

User avatar
jonadab
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:31 am UTC
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby jonadab » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:03 am UTC

Is it worth reading or watching?


Reading, yes. They're best when you're in about second grade, but as an adult you can read them much more quickly (they're really not that long; all seven of them combined would not add up to a particularly long book as fantasy novels go), so with the time investment being much smaller, they're still worth it. They hold up to adult scrutiny at least as well Lloyd Alexander's books, probably better.

Don't expect them to be Tolkien, though. Also, don't expect too much out of the first one (The Lion etc). It's arguably the weakest book in the series. The best is probably the Voyage of the Dawn Treader.

As for the movies, I suppose if you're one of those people who just has to watch everything in movie form because Hollywood special effects are so much more spectacular than your imagination, sure, go ahead and watch them. They don't botch the story any worse than the average made-from-a-pretty-good-book Hollywood movie.

Time runs much quicker in Narnia so water pouring through from our end in the course of a few seconds would take months to fully arrive there.


Actually, the relationship between the time flow rates of the various worlds in the Chronicles is variable and unpredictable. All the instances recorded in the books have Narnia time running faster, but how *much* faster varies considerably. On one occasion, a few weeks pass in Narnia during the course of an hour or so in England. On another occasion, centuries pass in Narnia during the course of a single afternoon in England.

So the solution to the White Witch is to flood and destroy all of Narnia?


You're right: it's not enough. Clearly we should launch the wardrobe into space. In fact, I believe it would make a pretty effective propulsion system (once you got it outside Earth's atmosphere).

Make the wardrobe out of stainless steel


That wouldn't work. The wardrobe only links the worlds the way it does because of the unique origin of the tree from which it was made. It's gotta be that specific wardrobe or nothing, unless you can figure out how to recreate the professor's rings.

adho
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:21 am UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby adho » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:07 am UTC

Retsam wrote:To the people correlating Narnia with modern American politics: C.S. Lewis was a British author writing around the time of WWII. Lewis wasn't advocating anything to do with textbooks; in fact Lewis seemed to lean towards being a theistic evolutionist. (Though he mostly left the subject alone, which may perhaps be the wisest answer) Nor was Lewis trying to advocate serious law reform. It's silly to say "I won't read Narnia because there are Christians who support [those things]". If anything, that seems like a rather glaring inability to differentiate between individuals of a group, similar to opposing all Muslims because a few of them are terrorists.

Most people's objections to C. S. Lewis' works (from what I've seen, admittedly) stem from the fact he was explicitly endorsing Christianity and Christian values through what seems to older people a thinly veiled allegory, though to many children it passes entirely unnoticed. The character is betrayed, sacrifices himself, and rises again. It's pretty clear. It is in no way similar to writing Muslims off as terrorists, that is blatant stereotyping and racism.
Retsam wrote:If the Christianity mucked up the plot, or if they were in general simply badly written books that were only popular due the controversy that they incited (which is my impression of Phillip Pullman's work, especially the movie), but they're not.

Philip Pullman's books are in an entirely separate category to that movie. Pullman in no way traded off controversy, he constructed a world that was at the very least thought provoking in a way that Narnia never seemed to me. He, like so many atheist people before him, had that crushing moment when he realised the overwhelming Christianity of the novel. Pullman promotes thought and inquiry. Narnia is far more of a children's book, and to me seems far more didactic.
To me, the movie took away everything about the books that made them what they were.

Sorry about the threadjack.
Amusing comic, though it's pretty inane.

User avatar
jonadab
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:31 am UTC
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby jonadab » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:11 am UTC

When the kids went back from Narnia to Earth, would they have hit resistance due to a momentum disparity? Would they have suffered health effects due to their backs aging at ≈1440 times the rate of their font sides?


Actually, they reverted to the age they'd been when they left. (It's fantasy, not sci-fi.)

DanielLC
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:30 am UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby DanielLC » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:14 am UTC

I remember working this out elsewhere: http://www.scp-wiki.net/forum/t-101083/scp-249

I don't actually know any fancy flow equations, and I just assumed there was no friction, and all the energy went into velocity. I got 390 m/s, 18 kg of TNT equivalence per cubic meter, and 14 tonnes of TNT per second. This wouldn't just douse something with water. It wouldn't just obliterate it. It would destroy everything for miles. At least, I think it would. That part I don't know how to calculate.

darkwing0o0rama
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:45 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby darkwing0o0rama » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:21 am UTC

adho wrote:
Retsam wrote:To the people correlating Narnia with modern American politics: C.S. Lewis was a British author writing around the time of WWII. Lewis wasn't advocating anything to do with textbooks; in fact Lewis seemed to lean towards being a theistic evolutionist. (Though he mostly left the subject alone, which may perhaps be the wisest answer) Nor was Lewis trying to advocate serious law reform. It's silly to say "I won't read Narnia because there are Christians who support [those things]". If anything, that seems like a rather glaring inability to differentiate between individuals of a group, similar to opposing all Muslims because a few of them are terrorists.

Most people's objections to C. S. Lewis' works (from what I've seen, admittedly) stem from the fact he was explicitly endorsing Christianity and Christian values through what seems to older people a thinly veiled allegory, though to many children it passes entirely unnoticed. The character is betrayed, sacrifices himself, and rises again. It's pretty clear. It is in no way similar to writing Muslims off as terrorists, that is blatant stereotyping and racism.
Retsam wrote:If the Christianity mucked up the plot, or if they were in general simply badly written books that were only popular due the controversy that they incited (which is my impression of Phillip Pullman's work, especially the movie), but they're not.

Philip Pullman's books are in an entirely separate category to that movie. Pullman in no way traded off controversy, he constructed a world that was at the very least thought provoking in a way that Narnia never seemed to me. He, like so many atheist people before him, had that crushing moment when he realised the overwhelming Christianity of the novel. Pullman promotes thought and inquiry. Narnia is far more of a children's book, and to me seems far more didactic.
To me, the movie took away everything about the books that made them what they were.

Sorry about the threadjack.
Amusing comic, though it's pretty inane.


First of all, lets agree that movie adaptations of most any printed media are disappointing (nearly) without fail. Next, "writing Muslims off as terrorists" may be stereotyping, it is not racism.... that would be religion-ism, although they are both forms of bigotry and people use the word racism for quite a lot of bigotry whether accurate or not, so lets move past that. :D

Muslims are people (of any race) who are adherents of Islam. Islam and Christianity are both religions. So people refusing to read/let their children read C.S. Lewis because he was a Christian, and they don't like Christians for something somebody did in history or disagree with the Christian worldview, IS in fact quite similar to opposing Muslims (including refusing to read books written by a Muslim), because some terrorists have claimed to be Muslim.

Lewis, like MANY storytellers, wrote books integrating his worldview with a universe/existence which was essentially different from our own. (The same idea applies to stories with a world very similar to our own.) I do not see any reason why ANYONE should have a "crushing moment" when they recognize elements of a worldview in a story. As a lover of literature, it makes me sad that somebody would dismiss a book or any other media just because they may not agree with the author's worldview. I would ask them if they would dismiss stories if they notice that it shows traces of Greek mythology and they don't believe that the titans separated the heavens and the water by castrating their father Uranus (the sky), or that Pallas Athene wasn't birthed from Zeus' head alone. Granted you don't see many temples to Greek gods around these days, but remember it once existed alongside many other religions which are still around. (side note, i love Greek mythology and Lewis' Space Trilogy works in that AND Christianity somewhat based on our solar system's planets being named after various roman versions of Greek gods)

As for Pullman being thought provoking and Narnia not being so, I would point out that you may be right, as one of them is a set of children's stories ;). However, I would also suggest that literature that challenges your worldview would definitely be thought-provoking and people from any religion(non-religion) should not be afraid to challenge their beliefs, as following without thought of what you as an individual believe in and refusing personal growth is thoroughly unflattering to any Deity (I would think, I can only speak for Christianity as that is what I ascribe to).

*********SKIP TO HERE FOR THE POINT***********
I guess I just want to point out that I believe both you AND Retsam are promoting the idea of thought and inquiry, and I intend only to share my personal thoughts and support what Retsam said without ill will toward you.
Although apparently I am bludgeoning you and everybody else with a block of text, and for that I apologize. :oops:

adho
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:21 am UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby adho » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:40 am UTC

darkwing0o0rama wrote:First of all, lets agree that movie adaptations of most any printed media are disappointing (nearly) without fail.

Well THAT's a given. Apart from maybe LOTR. "The Golden Compass" was, to me, particularly, cringeworthily bad.
darkwing0o0rama wrote:Next, "writing Muslims off as terrorists" may be stereotyping, it is not racism.... that would be religion-ism, although they are both forms of bigotry and people use the word racism for quite a lot of bigotry whether accurate or not, so lets move past that. :D

My error. It all comes under the heading of stupidity to me. That probably makes me a bigot, too.
darkwing0o0rama wrote:Muslims are people (of any race) who are adherents of Islam. Islam and Christianity are both religions. So people refusing to read/let their children read C.S. Lewis because he was a Christian, and they don't like Christians for something somebody did in history or disagree with the Christian worldview, IS in fact quite similar to opposing Muslims (including refusing to read books written by a Muslim), because some terrorists have claimed to be Muslim.

I would contend that they are entirely different situations. I am certainly unlikely to ever read the Narnia series, which was a favourite book when I was young, again. That does not mean I don't like Christians, or C. S. Lewis. It's because I disagree with what I see as an entirely overwhelming presence of religion in the novels. Certainly the first, and the most well known.
If I had children (which is in the far future) I doubt I would prevent them reading something as harmless as Narnia.
This is on a completely different level to opposing all Muslims because of isolated extremism.
darkwing0o0rama wrote: I do not see any reason why ANYONE should have a "crushing moment" when they recognize elements of a worldview in a story. As a lover of literature, it makes me sad that somebody would dismiss a book or any other media just because they may not agree with the author's worldview.

I did. I'm speaking from personal experience here, but I was watching a documentary on Lewis's life, and they casually mentioned the Christ/Aslan connection, before explaining how Lewis wrote earlier as a Christian apologist. To me, it was insinuating religion into what I had previously seen as an innocuous book. I must have been ten or so, but I was outraged.
A lot of people I know feel similarly. It's a personal thing, but it made me immensely sad.
darkwing0o0rama wrote:As for Pullman being thought provoking and Narnia not being so, I would point out that you may be right, as one of them is a set of children's stories ;). However, I would also suggest that literature that challenges your worldview would definitely be thought-provoking and people from any religion(non-religion) should not be afraid to challenge their beliefs, as following without thought of what you as an individual believe in and refusing personal growth is thoroughly unflattering to any Deity (I would think, I can only speak for Christianity as that is what I ascribe to).

Pshaw, His Dark Materials is marketed as 'young adult', while Narnia is probably called children's fiction. Books are books.
It just annoyed me that someone would imply HDM was only popular because of controvresy.

Sorry everyone. :?

User avatar
muntoo
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 11:11 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby muntoo » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:30 am UTC

TheMegelSmeagol wrote:With the loss of gravity from free-falling and the slowing down of time dues to it being Narnia, it would pretty much be like Inception.


I never understood how the lead child to venture into the wardrobe doesn't leave behind his/her siblings for years. (When the lead child is 'in Narnia', time would slow down, and everyone behind the lead child would take a very long time to travel 10cm.)

Fire Brns
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:25 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Fire Brns » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:39 pm UTC

Grant10k wrote:There's no question that I was being dismissive. In my defense, it's not easy to read subtle tonal inflections over text. You'e got to use these things -> :wink:

Very well loll :)
Eebster the Great wrote:E: By the way, that Science Daily article pisses me off. I hate it when the media looks at a single study and says "THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING." No, it doesn't; it's one study. The "global warming debate" wasn't closed due to the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature study any more than the "evolution debate" by the discovery of D. masillae.
A hardcore christian will see no reason except for a god for the bible to exist therefore claim god exists; you won't convince them otherwise. ie: people will see the proof they want. My point in reply was an internet forum isn't going to change my mind. If the WTF was for what I said in relation to sea level, I have seen many little bits of evidence including a sea level chart that wasn't even concerning global warming that argues against the raising sea levels idea.
Pfhorrest wrote:As someone who is not easily offended, I don't really mind anything in this conversation.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:It was the Renaissance. Everyone was Italian.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1846
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:04 pm UTC

Headshrinker wrote:Well the wardrobe decides what passes through, the children couldn't always get through, but if thats not the case victory
Interesting weapons if we can get wormholes to work. link target with space/link target to object near black hole/link target to blackhole.


you mean, like Farscape?
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

User avatar
jonadab
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:31 am UTC
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby jonadab » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:15 pm UTC

Random thought: if the world were to flood in Noahide proportions, how many Christians would that dissuade from their faith?


If the world were to flood like that again, there would be precious few people (of any faith, or lack thereof) left around afterward to ponder the implications. To survive that kind of catastrophe, you have to be *prepared*. Sure, there are now at any given time a few thousand boats at sea that might be large enough (and shaped in the right proportions -- roughly the shape of a supertanker is ideal) to weather that kind of storm (think about going around Cape Horn during the worst hurricane in recorded history; this would be worse), but, among other things, you need a year's worth of fresh water (or a mechanism for desalinating seawater fast enough to meet your needs) already stored up on your boat before things get seriously underway. Plus food. Even before everything is flooded, it's not safe to put into port (to take on supplies) with a storm like that going on. After the storm, it's like that old Waterworld movie for the next several months.

But it wouldn't be able to happen in today's world in any case. The world's present state (hydrologically, geologically, even meteorologically) wouldn't allow for it. To accept that it ever could have happened in the first place, you have to be willing to allow that various things (like the depth of the ocean basins and the height of the mountains and even the makeup of the atmosphere) might have been different in the past.

Plus, as noted, God said it won't happen again. So it won't.

JudeMorrigan
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:26 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:25 pm UTC

jonadab wrote:Reading, yes. They're best when you're in about second grade, but as an adult you can read them much more quickly (they're really not that long; all seven of them combined would not add up to a particularly long book as fantasy novels go), so with the time investment being much smaller, they're still worth it.

Personally, I would say that second grade is either pushing too old for them or is far too young. For me, the dedication to tLtWatW says it all:

My Dear Lucy,
I wrote this story for you, but when I began it I had not realized that girls grow quicker than books. As a result you are already too old for fairy tales, and by the time it is printed and bound you will be older still. But some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again. You can then take it down from some upper shelf, dust it, and tell me what you think of it. I shall probably be too deaf to hear, and too old to understand a word you say but I shall still be

your affectionate Godfather,

—C. S. Lewis

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:36 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:If the WTF was for what I said in relation to sea level, I have seen many little bits of evidence including a sea level chart that wasn't even concerning global warming that argues against the raising sea levels idea.

The thing is, there isn't really any way to argue this point. Rising temperatures unequivocally causes rising sea levels. Unless you want to debunk the thermal expansion of water . . .

E: I should point out though that water actually contracts with rising temperatures until it reaches ~4 C.

User avatar
Woopate
Scrapple
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:34 am UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Woopate » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:41 pm UTC

This comic reminded me of a D&D campaign setting I designed, where most people lived in sky cities held up by towers that had a CD shaped portal (gap in the middle) on the top and bottom inside, and a propeller that protrudes through the roof of the tower, with an axle and a water screw, so that perpetually falling water spun the propeller to generate lift. The chamber was even time dilated, and the propeller was not, so that people could use a crystal controller to change it's RPMs.

User avatar
mrbaggins
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:23 am UTC
Location: Wagga, Australia

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby mrbaggins » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:31 am UTC

How high do you have to be to come up with that sort of idea for the title text?

SPAAAAAAAAACE!!
Why is it that 4chan is either infinitely awesome, infinitely bad, or "lolwut", but never any intermediary level?

fatray
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:51 am UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby fatray » Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:06 pm UTC

> Welcome to Narnia!

> why are you half naked?

> oh, time dilation: i came here from xkcdforum, my clothes entered Narnia at 1m/s, so i've calculated they'll take 10^17 milliseconds to arrive.

> A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. You shouldn't play with dangerous machinery you haven't been trained on.

webgiant
Posts: 252
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:36 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby webgiant » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:03 am UTC

TheMegelSmeagol wrote:With the loss of gravity from free-falling and the slowing down of time dues to it being Narnia, it would pretty much be like Inception.

Not exactly. Given the variable nature of time in the Narnia universe, coupled with the fact that Aslan is controlling said variable time speed, if time flowed at the same rate as it does in Narnia during the events of "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe", one second worth of water would flow over a period of 20 years.

Or in other words, a fine mist would issue from the Wardrobe opening, not even enough to see. The water might even be held up at the event horizon of the Wardrobe opening into Narnia, with the time differential preventing movement of water through the opening.

Also, water physics will have some difficulty functioning in a universe where some of the water is alive and capable of movement above and away from rivers, lakes, and oceans.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:05 am UTC

fatray wrote:10^17 milliseconds
:|

User avatar
SpringLoaded12
Posts: 350
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:58 am UTC
Location: Guarding the Super Missile
Contact:

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby SpringLoaded12 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:58 am UTC

Look guys, Randall made a joke that didn't account for the difference in passage of time, so yes it wouldn't actually work within the Narnia universe, but the same could be said of the earlier comic with the land rover going through the wardrobe. No one cares anymore, STOP ARGUING ABOUT IT.
"It's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a battlefield." "Opposite over hypotenuse, dipshit."

User avatar
Eternal Density
Posts: 5590
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:37 am UTC
Contact:

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Eternal Density » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:51 am UTC

ctristan wrote:Isn't this basically what happens at the beginning of The Dawn Treader anyway, only on a much larger scale and in reverse?
Good point, I hadn't recognised that.

It's a pity there's not any discussion going on about Narnia as an embodiment of pre-Copernican planetary mythology.
The Magician's Nephew = Venus
The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe = Jupiter
The Horse and His Boy = Mercury
Prince Caspian = Mars
The Voyage of the Dawn Treader = the Sun
The Silver Chair = the Moon
The Last Battle = Saturn.
Play the game of Time! castle.chirpingmustard.com Hotdog Vending Supplier But what is this?
In the Marvel vs. DC film-making war, we're all winners.

Fire Brns
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:25 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:13 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I should point out though that water actually contracts with rising temperatures until it reaches ~4 C.

The average temperature of the ocean is 17C somewhere near 60F and it is only that warm because the surface layer retains the heat of sunlight very well. The rest after 750-1000M is near freezing. You are arguing that 750-780 feet of water dropped in height by with my numbers for sea level almost 30 feet, room temperature water when frozen expands by 4% so vice versa the entire ocean surface had to be nearly frozen years after the ice age ended and sea levels rose by over a hundred feet to be at those levels. And I came back, damn me...
Pfhorrest wrote:As someone who is not easily offended, I don't really mind anything in this conversation.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:It was the Renaissance. Everyone was Italian.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:08 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:I should point out though that water actually contracts with rising temperatures until it reaches ~4 C.

The average temperature of the ocean is 17C somewhere near 60F and it is only that warm because the surface layer retains the heat of sunlight very well. The rest after 750-1000M is near freezing. You are arguing that 750-780 feet of water dropped in height by with my numbers for sea level almost 30 feet, room temperature water when frozen expands by 4% so vice versa the entire ocean surface had to be nearly frozen years after the ice age ended and sea levels rose by over a hundred feet to be at those levels. And I came back, damn me...

Dude when did I say anything about sea levels dropping 30 feet? Stop putting words in my mouth. I literally have no clue what you are talking about. At any rate, the temperature of deep ocean water hardly ever changes at all, so nobody cares.

The thermal expansion of water is not a debatable point, and neither is the increase in temperature over the past few decades, and nor is the increase in sea levels over that same time, because all of these have been measured extensively with consistent results. There is nothing to interpret or get wrong.

Denswei
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:34 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Denswei » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:00 pm UTC

This could explain Noah's flood.
Someone in Narnia dropped their end of the portal into their ocean, and flooded the Earth. The resulting climate disruption in Narnia resulted in a perpetual winter, which was exploited (but not caused) by the politically ambitious White Witch.

Of course, if time runs faster in Narnia, the speed of the water as it exited the wardrobe would have sent it into orbit, perhaps resulting in a magnificent ring of ice around the Earth, a la Saturn. This precludes a Noah's flood, but because the ice ring deflected sunlight, the Earth was plunged into an ice age.

Fire Brns
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:25 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:51 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
Fire Brns wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:I should point out though that water actually contracts with rising temperatures until it reaches ~4 C.

The average temperature of the ocean is 17C somewhere near 60F and it is only that warm because the surface layer retains the heat of sunlight very well. The rest after 750-1000M is near freezing. You are arguing that 750-780 feet of water dropped in height by with my numbers for sea level almost 30 feet, room temperature water when frozen expands by 4% so vice versa the entire ocean surface had to be nearly frozen years after the ice age ended and sea levels rose by over a hundred feet to be at those levels. And I came back, damn me...

Dude when did I say anything about sea levels dropping 30 feet? Stop putting words in my mouth. I literally have no clue what you are talking about. At any rate, the temperature of deep ocean water hardly ever changes at all, so nobody cares.

The thermal expansion of water is not a debatable point, and neither is the increase in temperature over the past few decades, and nor is the increase in sea levels over that same time, because all of these have been measured extensively with consistent results. There is nothing to interpret or get wrong.

Those were my numbers -it was actually 20 ft. so I apologize for that- you were contesting my point which was that the sea levels drop as it gets warmer, I was simply stating the conditions necessary for my initial statement on sea levels to be disproved. I never stated a piece of data that "debated the thermal expansion of water", the "increase in temperature over the past few decades" is negligible and within margin of error considering how long we have been recording these things, sea levels fluctuating consistently dependant on over a hundred factors so measurements are within margin of error too.

There is nothing to interpret or get wrong.
Apparently there is because of the huge rift in beliefs on the subject.
Pfhorrest wrote:As someone who is not easily offended, I don't really mind anything in this conversation.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:It was the Renaissance. Everyone was Italian.

Fire Brns
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:25 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:52 pm UTC

Denswei wrote:This could explain Noah's flood.

Yay! Christian nonsence theories, what the thread is really for.
Pfhorrest wrote:As someone who is not easily offended, I don't really mind anything in this conversation.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:It was the Renaissance. Everyone was Italian.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:00 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:Those were my numbers -it was actually 20 ft. so I apologize for that- you were contesting my point which was that the sea levels drop as it gets warmer, I was simply stating the conditions necessary for my initial statement on sea levels to be disproved.

OK but you were talking about a change in sea levels from classical times, and I was talking about a change in sea levels from 50 years ago. There's a pretty big difference there.

You also never sourced that number.

the "increase in temperature over the past few decades" is negligible and within margin of error considering how long we have been recording these things, sea levels fluctuating consistently dependant on over a hundred factors so measurements are within margin of error too.

No, they aren't "within margin of error." Measuring average global temperature isn't really that difficult, and it has increased by 0.6 C in the past 30 years. Claiming that this is false is the equivalent of claiming climatologists can't measure temperature.

Measuring sea levels is a tad harder, but it really comes down to the same thing. I don't understand how you can say these are "within margin of error" when no studies claim that.

There is nothing to interpret or get wrong.
Apparently there is because of the huge rift in beliefs on the subject.

There is no rift here. No serious climate scientists claim the Earth has not been warming recently or that sea levels have not been rising. There are a handful that dispute the anthropogenic cause, but none that dispute that central finding.

Fire Brns
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:25 pm UTC

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:38 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:You also never sourced that number.
It's in a school textbook, I'll try to find it for you.
Eebster the Great wrote:No, they aren't "within margin of error." Measuring average global temperature isn't really that difficult, and it has increased by 0.6 C in the past 30 years. Claiming that this is false is the equivalent of claiming climatologists can't measure temperature.
30 years ago scientist were raving about how we were on the brink of a new Ice age. Wait 40 years, I forget that so much time has passed, and we started being all green before that including but not limmited to laws concerning pollution.
Eebster the Great wrote:There is no rift here. No serious climate scientists claim the Earth has not been warming recently or that sea levels have not been rising.
The few instances I have found of receding coastlines are attributed to "non-thermal" intances, Florida gulf cost for example: Engineer corps dug a trench in like 40s-50s[?] the gulf causing coast to stop growing and start receding.
Pfhorrest wrote:As someone who is not easily offended, I don't really mind anything in this conversation.
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:It was the Renaissance. Everyone was Italian.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: 0969: "Delta-P"

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:49 pm UTC

Fire Brns wrote:30 years ago scientist were raving about how we were on the brink of a new Ice age.

No, they weren't. The media was. Around 40 years ago (which was pretty much at the inception of modern climatology) there was a single study suggesting temperatures were going to drop. It was wrong. But taking a single study and blowing it out of proportion is not something you should ever do if you are serious about learning the truth.

Wait 40 years, I forget that so much time has passed, and we started being all green before that including but not limmited to laws concerning pollution.

What?

The few instances I have found of receding coastlines are attributed to "non-thermal" intances, Florida gulf cost for example: Engineer corps dug a trench in like 40s-50s[?] the gulf causing coast to stop growing and start receding.

That's because receding coastlines are not due to rising sea levels anywhere. If I recall correctly, the sea has only risen about 8 cm since the early 60s.

Anyway, there is no way the sea level has dropped significantly since classical times. That would require either global temperatures going down substantially (which is not the case) or a lot more water being bound in the polar icecaps, which is also not the case. Water didn't just disappear.


Return to “Individual XKCD Comic Threads”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: commodorejohn, Moose Anus, mscha, yakkoTDI and 98 guests