Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate?

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setzer777
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby setzer777 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:02 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
setzer777 wrote:According to this story, you just need to convince the world's military force to help you.


Thanks for the link, it's surpisingly well written for internet stuff.

edit: Never mind, it's 70% gun porn.
edit2: and 25% ultraconservative drivel.
and movie speeches. And terrible "science"...


Heh, so...seemed well written for a few paragraphs?
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:32 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Heh, so...seemed well written for a few paragraphs?


My appreciation of the text was skewed by the originality of the premise.
The rest of the grinding (freudian slip, meant to write "reading") went as follow:
"- Tell me more about the demons! What about their power struggles? What is the little guy about to do?
- The X-52mma hollow shell triple battery locked on him. It can vaporise a bee knee at 200km, and it costs 400 thousand dollars to fire this weapon for 12 seconds. The manufacturer decided to..."

"- Oh oh oh what is Michael going to do next?
- Well the portal opened and ALL WILL FEAR MY GIANT NEW GUN! Did I tell you how humans are awesome? Yes? I probably didn't tell you this enough. So they are awesome, because they kill stuff very well with their 30.05 doublefuck emptied lead rounds that..."

"- So what's the next chapter about?
- ABORTION SUCKS
- Um...?"

"- Oh, so this character can open portals?
- Yes, and she's a TRANSSEXUAL, and into S&M, and every bad guy hates her because she's a TRANSSEXUAL. That means she changed sex and was a guy before. And the bad guys hate her because of this. Did I mention her sex change?
- What does this add to the charac...
- So her utterly irrelevant boyfriend pulled her leash..."

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Jave D
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby Jave D » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:30 am UTC

I don't think I have a soulmate, but even if I thought I did, fighting God seems like a really ineffective solution to anything, so I wouldn't. Historically, fighting God is a good way to lose. I mean that personally as well. I've fought against God in various ways. He always wins. This is a good thing.

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setzer777
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby setzer777 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:12 am UTC

Jave D wrote:I don't think I have a soulmate, but even if I thought I did, fighting God seems like a really ineffective solution to anything, so I wouldn't. Historically, fighting God is a good way to lose. I mean that personally as well. I've fought against God in various ways. He always wins. This is a good thing.


Maybe if she plays with an extreme handicap? Theoretically it must be possible for God's will to not come to pass, if we are to think of other minds as anything but an extension of that will (and if that's the case they can't truly be said to be separate minds at all, more like what fictional characters are to their human creators).

*Of course all of the above is assuming that there is a sentient creator of the universe, which I think is probably not the case.
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby Jave D » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:23 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:
Jave D wrote:I don't think I have a soulmate, but even if I thought I did, fighting God seems like a really ineffective solution to anything, so I wouldn't. Historically, fighting God is a good way to lose. I mean that personally as well. I've fought against God in various ways. He always wins. This is a good thing.


Maybe if she plays with an extreme handicap? Theoretically it must be possible for God's will to not come to pass, if we are to think of other minds as anything but an extension of that will (and if that's the case they can't truly be said to be separate minds at all, more like what fictional characters are to their human creators).

*Of course all of the above is assuming that there is a sentient creator of the universe, which I think is probably not the case.


I agree that human minds are not separate truly from God's will... the difference is merely that I do believe in a God too. And I believe in free will in the sense we understand it, that we have choices and decisions and responsibilities for those decisions we make are our own. Nevertheless. As a writer of fiction myself I often find that my characters wind up doing things I don't really intend - even though of course I'm the source of their "doings" entirely, it's more like a sort of free-will grafted to them by a subconscious part of me. I can both be surprised by what happens, and completely not surprised at the same time. When it comes down to it though, no matter what one of my characters 'wants,' I have the power of the Delete key (and to rewrite or edit). Similarly, God's will, assuming He exists, trumps that of any mortal in any confrontation. God is said to be all powerful - yet merciful and loving, too, so the nature and results of any such confrontation are not going to be a simple thing. Maybe God does play with an extreme handicap - who can say?

Still, I know I have very limited powers, so contesting with someone who has infinite power is just a recipe for disaster. Not that God might smite me per se, but that I might break my head open against an unmovable wall in the trying.

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setzer777
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby setzer777 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:55 am UTC

However, assuming a God exists it's quite possible that it isn't in fact infinite or omnipotent. After all, that isn't a requirement for creating a planet or a universe (for example, the creator could have a massive yet finite store of energy and used most of it up creating the universe).

You could argue that scriptures claim omnipotence, though I'm not sure the original writers ever made that claim - at least not in the sense of possessing literally infinite energy or being able to perform any logically possible action. Even if they do make that claim, the source, at best, is God himself, who could obviously have an ulterior motive in making such a claim (don't want your ambitious creations thinking they have a shot at overthrowing you).

Actually, if you accept the story of Lucifer rebelling, it makes a lot more sense if he had an actual chance of winning. Sure, it could have been pure stubbornness and pride, but it seems more plausible that he could have overpowered God, if he had got enough angels on his side. Consider that even in heaven itself, God has angels do the fighting - could be a test of loyalty, or could be that he needs loyal angels to maintain control of his creation.

Edit: Also, why does everyone assume that Lucifer had a petty human-like motive for rebelling? If angels are so beyond human perception and understanding, seems like their motives might likewise be beyond our comprehension. In any case, we never get to hear his side of the story.
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby Jave D » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:10 pm UTC

Yet, it's not good for us ambitious creations to go around thinking we're God. It isn't healthy, psychologically speaking, and so perhaps his ulterior motive is merely as it says - to look out for us, that it might go well for us; not that he is literally afraid that we might be able to overpower him. Stubbornness and pride are just plain unwholesome traits, and I see the story of Lucifer as a QED in that - that his error is not in thinking he can overpower God and God casting him down, but that in the mere actions of trying to do so, he damns himself. Buddhist teachings also point to this concept of our suffering being created by our selves, by attachment to desires (for example the desire to be great and powerful) - whether we get our wishes fulfilled or not (hell, especially if we do!) the desires do not end and the suffering only continues. It's not so much about whether God is an unstoppable force as more of an unmoveable object, at least to beings he's created; a brick wall against which it is our tendency to sometimes bash our heads against. Because it's fun? Well we all have our reasons, petty or not. I admit I'm not as familiar with the story of Lucifer as I'd like to be, and the whole placement or role of angels in general is something I'm not terribly knowledgeable about. But the more of religious learning I peek into, the more I see the same core messages that make sense in a rather practical way. If you're gonna fight someone, at least fight someone your own size! Bigger ones are gonna kick your ass, and smaller ones are going to make you feel like a real turd. I think Jesus said that.

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setzer777
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby setzer777 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:15 pm UTC

Yeah, but if a bigger guy is bullying you, you shouldn't necessarily just take it. Judging by the Old Testament God could be pretty brutal - wiping out entire civilizations to make room for his chosen people. Should those people have just laid down to die?

In the case of the angels, supposedly one-third of them rebelled. If that many of your subjects are openly turning against you, there's a chance the problem might be with you.
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby Jave D » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:47 pm UTC

Well, its one thing to stand up against a bully or in self defense. We all have an instinct toward self preservation which is well and fine. As for whether God as described in the OT is a bully or not, that's really a matter of perception and context, and how you define God. I see God as a bit more than a personified being with thoughts and emotions like you or I have - I see him as all-inclusive, so when I think of fighting against God I see it as fighting against reality and fighting against my own desire to do good. I have done both of these things, often in my life, and it always hurt me more than anyone or anything else. As for the angels, well - don't all of us, at some point, get rebellious against some authority, like parents, or The System, or a moral code, or someone telling us what we should do? Is that tendency in myself a reflection of how bullying my parents or whathaveyou really are - a sign that they are the bad ones? I don't think it necessarily is so. If I am struggling and resisting against something (outside of the context of preserving my life from violence) it beats me up; it's easy to justify it to myself that it's their fault but that doesn't make it all okay for me. To quote Gandhi, "Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances." Angels in rebellion against God are not having any sort of inner peace, regardless of whether they could win or if their anger was justifiable. Perhaps God is unjust; but my belief is that he is not, and that if I have a problem with it, it's that *I* have a problem. Even if plenty of other people have the same problems. There's nothing unique about a whole bunch of people all being wrong about something.

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setzer777
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby setzer777 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:33 pm UTC

Yeah, but the angels were seemingly in a position to know God a lot better than humans, and a lot of them thought it was worth risking the consequences to openly rebel. Given that all parties are beyond human comprehension, isn't it a bit premature to be taking sides? Especially when we've only heard one side of the story.
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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby Kick » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:13 am UTC

Yes, I most certainly would.
I'm never sarcastic.

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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby delfts » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:58 am UTC

Yeah, I would. Both choices leave me at a disadvantage in the end (assuming I'm not more powerful than God): either I fight God and lose, or I let my soulmate die and presumably enter a depression.
My blog about a bunch of random ideas, which are pretty darn interesting.

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Re: Hypothetically would you fight god to save your soulmate

Postby Kang » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:13 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Yeah, but the angels were seemingly in a position to know God a lot better than humans, and a lot of them thought it was worth risking the consequences to openly rebel. Given that all parties are beyond human comprehension, isn't it a bit premature to be taking sides? Especially when we've only heard one side of the story.

If I remember correctly angels are actually supposed to see the future as in seeing the 'end' of 'Gods plan', which basically would mean that rebellion for them meant either they disagreed with how everything would end (-> it can't quite be the perfect world if there are that many of them disagreeing on that, can it?) or they just didn't buy into that 'random suffering just so eventually some master scheme will fall into place' idea (-> there have to be another option of reaching the ultimate goal that God decided against).


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