New UK Anti-Rape PSA

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New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby setzer777 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:41 am UTC

I'm not normally a fan of PSAs, but I found this one very powerful. I think it would be good if we had something like this in the states.

http://youtu.be/YPC-Q2NMwJw

Also, I was extremely grateful that YouTube comments were disabled.

Edit: As a warning: this video does depict (in a SFW way) a woman being raped.
Last edited by setzer777 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:46 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:00 am UTC

That could have easily been ruined by hammy acting, so I'm glad it wasn't. I don't know that this would be persuasive: are rapists generally unaware that they are raping somebody, or do they just not care?
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby sigsfried » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:53 am UTC

Given that a large number of women who have been raped claim not to have been (if you ask if someone has been raped they are far more likely to say no that if you ask something like, have you ever had sex against your will that you did not consent to). Is it that unreasonable to believe that many men have committed rape without realising it. Plus an important part of this is making it clear that rape isn't just violent stranger rape, an attitude that is far too common.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:55 am UTC

That's ...interesting. Why do people consider 'rape' different from 'nonconsensual sex'?
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby sigsfried » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:12 am UTC

Because society has a fucked up understanding of rape such that many people only consider violent stranger rape to be real rape.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Hawknc » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:20 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:That could have easily been ruined by hammy acting, so I'm glad it wasn't. I don't know that this would be persuasive: are rapists generally unaware that they are raping somebody, or do they just not care?

My anecdotal experience is that they are typically unaware, at least until after the fact. Anything that encourages people to look for cues as to whether or not their partners are giving enthusiastic consent gets a pretty big tick in my book.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:23 am UTC

sigsfried wrote:Because society has a fucked up understanding of rape such that many people only consider violent stranger rape to be real rape.

O.o
I really have no experience with rape (or sex, for that matter), but considering that you hear about family members molesting people (and that statistics indicate that the vast majority of rapes are committed by people the victim knows) I'm not sure how society ever got the idea that people only feel violated when a stranger rapes them violently.

Hawknc wrote:Anything that encourages people to look for cues as to whether or not their partners are giving enthusiastic consent gets a pretty big tick in my book.

Yeah, well even if this wouldn't make an effect I'd have a hard time objecting to a PSA whose message is "Non-consensual sex is rape, and rape is bad."
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Diadem » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:27 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:That's ...interesting. Why do people consider 'rape' different from 'nonconsensual sex'?

Because rape is a very loaded, confronting term. There's a huge social stigma attached to the term. If you got Raped then suddenly you're a Victim. People will look at you differently, everything you say and do (at least regarding sex) will suddenly be seen in a different light. Not just other people, you yourself will probably end up looking at yourself differently. And feeling weak and vulnerable is not a nice feeling, it's much easier to pretend you had some say in affairs by rationalizing what happened as something like "well, I didn't really feel like having sex, but he insisted, and well, he is my boyfriend, and he has his needs. I shouldn't be such a prude anyway".

Moreover, if you admit it was rape, then there is a stigma to the other party. He is now a Rapist. That means Pure Evil and Utterly Beyond Redemption. That's not something you want to think about people you care about. That guy is still your boyfriend, or good friend, or classmate, or whatever. You like him, maybe even love him. You don't want to think badly of him.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:28 am UTC

Ah, so some of it is part of the larger problem that people don't like to recognize their abuse as abuse?
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby elasto » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:28 am UTC

sourmilk wrote:Why do people consider 'rape' different from 'nonconsensual sex'?


sigsfried wrote:Because society has a fucked up understanding of rape such that many people only consider violent stranger rape to be real rape.


I don't think it's something especially specific to sex. If you were to ask a large number of people 'have you ever been assaulted?' and 'have you ever been touched against your will?' you'd get different answers too.

People are quite frequently in situations where they didn't especially want the illegal thing that happened to them to have happened, but it wasn't a big deal for them in the grand scheme of things either. Rape, assault and a whole range of personal crimes can fall into this category from time to time.

Diadem wrote:Moreover, if you admit it was rape, then there is a stigma to the other party. He is now a Rapist. That means Pure Evil and Utterly Beyond Redemption. That's not something you want to think about people you care about. That guy is still your boyfriend, or good friend, or classmate, or whatever. You like him, maybe even love him. You don't want to think badly of him.

I think this is a big part of it too.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:31 am UTC

And for the record, I have no problem hating my classmates if they so much as make my lab experiment more inefficient, much less if they rape somebody. One lab partner once screeched in my ear (well aware of my phobia of loud, sudden noises), and I reflexively punched him in the solar plexus. Fucker deserved it. But I digress.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Zarq » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:52 am UTC

It seems this would fit here: anyone else think the posters for the "men can get raped too" campaign in the London subway are phrased so very weird? Poster in spoiler.

Spoiler:
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby johnny_7713 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:55 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:That's ...interesting. Why do people consider 'rape' different from 'nonconsensual sex'?

Because rape is a very loaded, confronting term. There's a huge social stigma attached to the term. If you got Raped then suddenly you're a Victim. People will look at you differently, everything you say and do (at least regarding sex) will suddenly be seen in a different light. Not just other people, you yourself will probably end up looking at yourself differently. And feeling weak and vulnerable is not a nice feeling, it's much easier to pretend you had some say in affairs by rationalizing what happened as something like "well, I didn't really feel like having sex, but he insisted, and well, he is my boyfriend, and he has his needs. I shouldn't be such a prude anyway".

Moreover, if you admit it was rape, then there is a stigma to the other party. He is now a Rapist. That means Pure Evil and Utterly Beyond Redemption. That's not something you want to think about people you care about. That guy is still your boyfriend, or good friend, or classmate, or whatever. You like him, maybe even love him. You don't want to think badly of him.


Diadem's post was mainly from the point of view of the victim. From the point of view of a member of society general strangers in dark alleyways are not People Like Me, whereas friends, classmates and family members probably are. The idea that People Like Me could do Bad Stuff is scary and confrontational, not least because it raises the possibility that I too could be capable of Bad Stuff. It's the same reason some people complained that the actor in Der Untergang made Hitler too human for example. It messes up the comfortable narrative that the Nazis were sub-human monsters with deficient morality cores, allowing them to commit atrocities that People Like Me would never be capable of.

Another factor is that if rape only happens to silly girls who drink too much and walk down dark alleyways while wearing provocative clothing I don't have to worry since I don't do any of those things. However if rape is suddenly something that could happen to anyone, then I do have to worry, which is again a scary and confrontational thought.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Malice » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:27 am UTC

Nobody likes to consider themselves the villain. And society has actually done a fairly good job of painting an obvious target on "rape" and "rapists"; but people will seek any justification to avoid falling under that universally-hated label.

It's how you get people who say things like, "I'm not a racist, but I do think the blacks are keeping this country down." They're not thinking, "If I say I'm not a racist, nobody will notice how racist I am!" They're thinking, "I am a reasonable person, not one of those awful racists you hear about on the news. Doesn't mean I can't have opinions about the blacks!"

And so rape isn't rape because she was asking for it; because she said yes before she said no; because we both had some drinks; because we're dating; because we're married; because it feels good; because he got hard; because my friend/teacher/parent would never do that; because they didn't file charges; because everybody knows she just wants attention; because I'm a good person and not one of those awful rapists you hear about on the news.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Wieke » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:32 am UTC

Zarq wrote:It seems this would fit here: anyone else think the posters for the "men can get raped too" campaign in the London subway are phrased so very weird? Poster in spoiler.

Spoiler:
Image


It does seem phrased in a weird way. Isn't the phrase "Real Men <verb phrase>" usually supposed to mean that you should only be considered a "real man" if you <verb phrase>? At least that is how I parse it.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Angua » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:06 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:And for the record, I have no problem hating my classmates if they so much as make my lab experiment more inefficient, much less if they rape somebody. One lab partner once screeched in my ear (well aware of my phobia of loud, sudden noises), and I reflexively punched him in the solar plexus. Fucker deserved it. But I digress.

So, if you hate everyone who rapes, then you contribute to the problem of getting people to realise that if you have sex with someone who hasn't consented, then you have raped that person. Because they're not necessarily a bad person in other ways, and so aren't going to see themselves as ever doing something that makes people hate them.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Dthen » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:09 pm UTC

Wieke wrote:
Zarq wrote:It seems this would fit here: anyone else think the posters for the "men can get raped too" campaign in the London subway are phrased so very weird? Poster in spoiler.

Spoiler:
Image


It does seem phrased in a weird way. Isn't the phrase "Real Men <verb phrase>" usually supposed to mean that you should only be considered a "real man" if you <verb phrase>? At least that is how I parse it.

Seconding this. That is a very strange way to phrase it.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Angua » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:11 pm UTC

I think it's supposed to be against the mentality that 'real men' don't get raped - ie if you do get raped it's because you're weak or whatnot. I'm not sure if it's helpful by perpetuating the idea of 'real men', but I think that was what they were trying to combat.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Zarq » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:14 pm UTC

Angua wrote:I think it's supposed to be against the mentality that 'real men' don't get raped - ie if you do get raped it's because you're weak or whatnot. I'm not sure if it's helpful by perpetuating the idea of 'real men', but I think that was what they were trying to combat.


I know that's what they're going for, but that phrasing is more "if you don't get raped, you're not a real man" than "real men get raped too". Which is weird.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Angua » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:26 pm UTC

I don't read it that way, but I guess I can see how you could. They could have added in a too, but then that would actually imply that 'real men' and 'nonreal men' can both get raped, which could possibly be worse. I think the way they have it is better, as most people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's saying that you have to be raped to be a real man, because that doesn't make much sense.

Is english your native language? If not, then that could explain why you automatically put more emphasis on what the words are actually saying, rather than just automatically parsing the concept (like how a native reader of a language is much less likely to notice a spelling mistake that someone who's learnt it well as a second language, because the brain doesn't pay as much attention to the words).
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Zamfir » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:27 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:
I know that's what they're going for, but that phrasing is more "if you don't get raped, you're not a real man" than "real men get raped too". Which is weird.

It doesn't actually mean that, though. I's just used that way in advertisements, because "if you don't get <thing we want you to get> you're not a real man" is too direct.

Advertisements rarely tell you directly to do something, because that triggers a reflex to be skeptical. Instead, they present you with a positive concept of what it would be like, if you did it. Advertisements rarely even say "real men do X", they mostly imply it.

This campaign uses that ambiguity. They know that you are trained by experience to read their message in the 'weird' way first, and that gains your attention, helps you remember the ad. The mere fact that people here bring it up is already a success.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Diadem » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:29 pm UTC

I suspect they phrased it that way on purpose. The possible disconnect "Wait a sec, are they saying that being raped makes you a real man" makes you do a double-take and read the ad twice.

edit: Ninja'd. Damn you Zamfir!
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Zarq » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:36 pm UTC

Diadem wrote: read the ad twice.


Or in my case: go down the escalator, and go back up the one that goes past it just so I could read the text in the bottom.

@Angua, English is my secondary language, but I don't really think that's to blame. When I actually parse both sentences, I see they're saying pretty much the same. My original interpretation however is, as Zamfir said, clouded by all the ad-campaigns that use it that way.

I was mainly wondering if it was intentional or accidental.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Hyphe » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:52 pm UTC

I can't think of a way they could have phrased that advert without making it sound odd or incredibly wordy. I think it gets the point across, even if it's a bit hard to parse. I'm glad it's there; I've never seen something like this before and it's heartening (and also makes a great change from TFL's delightful victim-blaming unlicensed cab adverts).

Re the original video: there were some very similar to this a year or so ago (I think?) that were about abusive relationships, which are also on that YouTube channel. Good to know they were considered successful enough they've moved onto talking about sexual assault, too.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Jplus » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:00 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:It seems this would fit here: anyone else think the posters for the "men can get raped too" campaign in the London subway are phrased so very weird? Poster in spoiler.

Spoiler:
Image

The phrasing matter has already been covered, but I just wanted to point out that I find the supporting image weirder. I can't even really figure out what the ellipsoidal object is.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Zarq » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:04 pm UTC

Rugby ball.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Роберт » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:17 pm UTC

Hyphe wrote:I can't think of a way they could have phrased that advert without making it sound odd or incredibly wordy.
Real men can get raped

As a native English speaker, I find that much less awkward. But they may have intentionally made it sound really odd.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby sigsfried » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:15 pm UTC

Jplus wrote:
Zarq wrote:It seems this would fit here: anyone else think the posters for the "men can get raped too" campaign in the London subway are phrased so very weird? Poster in spoiler.

Spoiler:
Image

The phrasing matter has already been covered, but I just wanted to point out that I find the supporting image weirder. I can't even really figure out what the ellipsoidal object is.


Rugby ball, if you want to indicate some is tough, then Rugby is the sport to do that with in the UK. Even though football (soccer) is the more popular sport. Just as until recently there was an attitude of cricket being associated with fair play.

'have you ever been assaulted?' and 'have you ever been touched against your will?' you'd get different answers too.


I would say they were different though, yesterday when someone bumped into me accidentally spilling my pint I wasn't assaulted. I suppose it boils down to the fact that accidental, and just general, contact happens not infrequently. While accidental sex isn't so common.

Real men can get raped

As a native English speaker, I find that much less awkward. But they may have intentionally made it sound really odd.

I find that costs it a lot of the impact though.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby nitePhyyre » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:45 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Why do people consider 'rape' different from 'nonconsensual sex'?
rape/rāp/
Noun:
The crime, committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with him, esp. by the threat or use of violence.
1)A plant (genus Brassica) of the cabbage family with bright yellow, heavily scented flowers, esp. a variety (oilseed rape) grown for its...
2)The stalks and skins of grapes left after winemaking, used in making vinegar.
Verb:
(of a man) Force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him, esp. by the threat or use of violence against them.
Perhaps because they are using the word properly?

In other words, there are a bunch of ways to have nonconsensual sex, not all of them use violence, hence not all of them are called 'rape'.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Xeio » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:50 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:Perhaps because they are using the word properly?

In other words, there are a bunch of ways to have nonconsensual sex, not all of them use violence, hence not all of them are called 'rape'.
Few modern definitions require violence, just non-consent.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby sigsfried » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:55 pm UTC

Rape does not have to be violent, other than as far as rape is always a violent act, for it to be rape. For example virtually ever nation accepts that forcing someone to have sex using blackmail instead of violence, or the threat of violence, is rape. The UK was considering, for example, introducing a situation where after a certain amount of alcohol had been consumed a woman [at least the way it was introduced it would only apply to women, but of course we don't even have a draft yet] could not consent, and this would be treated as rape. Not some other offence. It appears to have stalled as judges seem to be saying that such a position is unnecessary and could be damaging but that is an entirely different issue.

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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby DaBigCheez » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:58 pm UTC

I would also *strongly* contest the definition nitePhyyre provided, on the grounds that by that definition, women are definitionally incapable of committing rape. What source is that from?
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Shro » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:03 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Why do people consider 'rape' different from 'nonconsensual sex'?
rape/rāp/
Noun:
The crime, committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with him, esp. by the threat or use of violence.
1)A plant (genus Brassica) of the cabbage family with bright yellow, heavily scented flowers, esp. a variety (oilseed rape) grown for its...
2)The stalks and skins of grapes left after winemaking, used in making vinegar.
Verb:
(of a man) Force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him, esp. by the threat or use of violence against them.
Perhaps because they are using the word properly?

In other words, there are a bunch of ways to have nonconsensual sex, not all of them use violence, hence not all of them are called 'rape'.

Esp. stands for especially and doesn't mean only.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Роберт » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:30 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Why do people consider 'rape' different from 'nonconsensual sex'?
rape/rāp/
Noun:
The crime, committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with him, esp. by the threat or use of violence.
1)A plant (genus Brassica) of the cabbage family with bright yellow, heavily scented flowers, esp. a variety (oilseed rape) grown for its...
2)The stalks and skins of grapes left after winemaking, used in making vinegar.
Verb:
(of a man) Force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him, esp. by the threat or use of violence against them.
Perhaps because they are using the word properly?

In other words, there are a bunch of ways to have nonconsensual sex, not all of them use violence, hence not all of them are called 'rape'.

What is wrong with your dictionary? Also, you forgot to reference your f-ed up quote.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby cephalopod9 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 am UTC

Hey, you might want to put a Trigger Warning and a description of the video on the original post.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:05 pm UTC

It's described as a PSA about rape. That IS a trigger warning.
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cephalopod9
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby cephalopod9 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:02 pm UTC

PSA's can range from indirectly talking about rape, to in this case
A scene in which a rape happens, so I think a little more detail is in order. I'm not an expert on trigger warnings, but I can see a lot of ways in which the video could be more upsetting than just discussing the word rape.

Hawknc wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:That could have easily been ruined by hammy acting, so I'm glad it wasn't. I don't know that this would be persuasive: are rapists generally unaware that they are raping somebody, or do they just not care?
My anecdotal experience is that they are typically unaware, at least until after the fact. Anything that encourages people to look for cues as to whether or not their partners are giving enthusiastic consent gets a pretty big tick in my book.
I think there's a huge lack of discussion about what consent is, and how it works. Also a lot of dangerous and hugely problematic messages in movies, ads, etc. about what's acceptable or "normal" in hooking-up.
Just look at all the scenarios where a man flirting with a woman involves buying alcohol for her. A cultural meme in which getting a someone drunk is seen as a valid strategy for having sex with them is a serious problem.

Rapists who know exactly what they're doing also benefit from confusion about the meaning of rape, and attacking that confusion will help to undermine their strategies for getting away with it.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby nitePhyyre » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:54 pm UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:I would also *strongly* contest the definition nitePhyyre provided, on the grounds that by that definition, women are definitionally incapable of committing rape. What source is that from?
Роберт wrote:What is wrong with your dictionary? Also, you forgot to reference your f-ed up quote.

Google 'rape definition'.

Yes, until recently woman were definitionally incapable of committing rape. This was changed, what, 2 months ago? That change hasn't permeated throughout all of our culture. This shouldn't be a shocking concept.

cephalopod9 wrote:Just look at all the scenarios where a man flirting with a woman involves buying alcohol for her. A cultural meme in which getting a someone drunk is seen as a valid strategy for having sex with them is a serious problem.
OTOH, a cultural meme of sexual chasity where sexual inhibitions prevent oneself from having their desired level of sex without alcohol is also a serious problem.

I don't think you will get rid of one without the other. Nor should you want to.

cephalopod9 wrote:Rapists who know exactly what they're doing also benefit from confusion about the meaning of rape, and attacking that confusion will help to undermine their strategies for getting away with it.
If someone is plotting their rapes to take advantage of the confusion about the meaning of rape, they are far beyond the reach of a PSA.
Last edited by nitePhyyre on Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:01 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:56 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:
cephalopod9 wrote:Rapists who know exactly what they're doing also benefit from confusion about the meaning of rape, and attacking that confusion will help to undermine their strategies for getting away with it.
If someone is plotting their rapes to take advantage of the confusion about the meaning of rape, they are far beyond the reach of a PSA?


Yeah, but in that case it's not about educating the rapist, but educating the rest of the population to recognize rape for what it is. It's to instill a defense against the Rapist trying to confuse their potential victim by claiming that it's not rape.
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Re: New UK Anti-Rape PSA

Postby nitePhyyre » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:03 pm UTC

Ahhh, makes sense.
sourmìlk wrote:Monopolies are not when a single company controls the market for a single product.

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