1033: "Formal Logic"

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SirMustapha
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby SirMustapha » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:38 am UTC

Thank you for explaining the joke in the alt text, Randall. I would never get it otherwise.

(NOTE: This is completely sarcastic)

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Elirra » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:46 am UTC

SirMustapha wrote:Thank you for explaining the joke in the alt text, Randall. I would never get it otherwise.

(NOTE: This is completely sarcastic)

Thank you for explaining the sarcasm in the parantheses, SirMustapha. I would never get it otherwise.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby BlueLaughter » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:55 am UTC

Of course, this all assumes that
1. You will do what's told of you.
2. You somehow care that a sticker is implying something about you.

I've seen bumper stickers that said something similar to "Honk if you're an asshole", and yet I still honked, not because I'm an asshole, but because the idiot wouldn't stay in his lane.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby thesingingaccountant » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:57 am UTC

SirMustapha wrote:Thank you for explaining the joke in the alt text, Randall. I would never get it otherwise.

(NOTE: This is completely sarcastic)


So.

It has come to this.

(honk, honk)
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby J Thomas » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:00 pm UTC

SirMustapha wrote:Thank you for explaining the joke in the alt text, Randall. I would never get it otherwise.

(NOTE: This is completely sarcastic)


Thank you for the sarcastic note. Sometimes when you don't include that some people don't know that you're being sarcastic.

Seriously.
The Law of Fives is true. I see it everywhere I look for it.

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rhhardin
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby rhhardin » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:34 pm UTC

There's no imperative in formal logic.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby conorjh » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:37 pm UTC

n0etic wrote:If you love formal logic and you are driving, and you honk iff you love formal logic, you'd be honking your horn the entire time that you drive.


No, only when you see the sticker; it's an imperative not an instruction.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby rcox1 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:56 pm UTC

jdmulloy wrote:Why is 'if' spelled 'iff'?


IFF is a logical construct that allows conclusions that would be invalid for if.

For example, a parent might say that if you do your chores then you can go the concert. You may have told your friends this and, when they see at the concert, they may incorrectly conclude that you did your chores. This, iirc, is the fallacy of affirming the consequent. You could have snuck out of the house even though you did not do your chores.

IFF is used when the conditional, that you do your chores, and the conclusion, that you go the concert, is strongly linked. In this case using IFF means that not only that you will honk if you love formal logic, but that is the only reason you will honk.

Or this is my understanding form logic courses many years ago. I am sure will correct any small errors in logic.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:08 pm UTC

meh.

This joke did not contain bobcat. Would not use again.
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby SirMustapha » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:22 pm UTC

Elirra wrote:
SirMustapha wrote:Thank you for explaining the joke in the alt text, Randall. I would never get it otherwise.

(NOTE: This is completely sarcastic)

Thank you for explaining the sarcasm in the parantheses, SirMustapha. I would never get it otherwise.


You know about Poe's Law, don't you?

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby kram2301 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:25 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:Honk iff you don't honk.

Wouldn't it be slightly more paradox to say:
"Honk iff you won't honk."?

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Elwood011 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:33 pm UTC

Mother to small child: "You may have one cookie or one candy bar before dinner."


When I read this, I just pictured some young programmer grabbing both a cookie and a candy bar and saying "Thanks!"

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby javahead » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:44 pm UTC

IIF = infinite if ... wasn't a typo I don't think.

I, for one, do not care one way or another for formal logic.
So I shall never honk again, but it won't stop me extending various forms of the middle finger. And screaming; i'm good at that.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby BAReFOOt » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:58 pm UTC

Am I the only one, who doesn’t automatically do everything somebody else tells him to do?

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby BAReFOOt » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:09 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:It also implies:
~(honk & ~you love formal logic)
~(~honk & you love formal logic)
~(honk xor you love formal logic)
(honk & you love formal logic) V (~honk & ~you love formal logic)


I think you mean:
¬ (honk ∧ ¬ (you love formal logic))
¬ (¬ honk ∧ (you love formal logic))
¬ (honk ⊕ (you love formal logic))
(honk ∧ (you love formal logic)) ∨ (¬ honk ∧ ¬ (you love formal logic))

Get your pointless I’m-better-than-you-mathpenis symbolism right! ^^
(What I’m trying to say, is: There’s a reason programmers learn to use meaningful identifiers.)
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Last edited by BAReFOOt on Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:14 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby savanik » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:13 pm UTC

Out of all the things I learned in college, formal logic is probably one of the most useful things I've learned for my daily job. I do a lot of info searching, and being able to know that NOT (A OR B) is the same thing as NOT A AND NOT B really helps me troubleshoot queries.

Irony: It was in a Philosophy course and didn't count for Computer Science credit. Neither was my second-most useful class, Human-Computer Interfaces, that actually taught me how to properly use a testing methodology for interface design. That was part of the Psychology subtrack.
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Sleaw » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:26 pm UTC

savanik wrote:Out of all the things I learned in college, formal logic is probably one of the most useful things I've learned for my daily job. I do a lot of info searching, and being able to know that NOT (A OR B) is the same thing as NOT A AND NOT B really helps me troubleshoot queries.

Irony: It was in a Philosophy course and didn't count for Computer Science credit. Neither was my second-most useful class, Human-Computer Interfaces, that actually taught me how to properly use a testing methodology for interface design. That was part of the Psychology subtrack.


What about that one weekend you spent messing with Perl, did that come in useful at all? :P

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby rigwarl » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:34 pm UTC

This has been one of my favorite comics in a really long time.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby ineon » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:42 pm UTC

Expecting people to follow instructions in formal logic probably isn't the smartest thing to do. I once spent about 5 minutes explaining the differences between logical if and the 'regular' definition of if (including the difference between if and iff, and why statements like "There's coke in the fridge if you are thirsty" don't make sense). I got the reply:

"If you say so"

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby cellocgw » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:43 pm UTC

jdmulloy wrote:Why is 'if' spelled 'iff'?


Never took a course in formal logic, eh? Or probably not even math.

iff is defined as "if and only if" . Now I suppose I have to explain the difference between 'necessary' and 'sufficient,' or between 'one to one' and 'onto' ....
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby BAReFOOt » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:44 pm UTC

savanik wrote:Out of all the things I learned in college, formal logic is probably one of the most useful things I've learned for my daily job. I do a lot of info searching, and being able to know that NOT (A OR B) is the same thing as NOT A AND NOT B really helps me troubleshoot queries.


Yep. I think we should teach children, in that order: (Hmm, I went a bit over the top here, but I’m gonna post it anyway. :)
Basic life school
• Your body. (Resources, waste, health, sexuality, perception, control.)
• Your environment. (Home, tools, vehicles, etc.)
• Your social group. (Interaction, trading, organization and teamwork [as a analogy to your body], etc.)
Self-self-improvement. (Games, and their subsets: Education, Sports, Art, Entertainment)
Mental development school
• I think, therefore I am.
• Perception of reality. (How it really is just signals entering our conciousness, and everything else is just assumptions.)
The cycle of scientific knowledge development.
• Logic, first non-formal, then formal but descriptive (not using symbolism, since we have no need to wank our self-confidence penis to make it grow).
• A practical study of the usual logical fallacies (non-sequiturs), like argument from authority / majority /…, circular reasoning, thought-terminating clichées,
• and their causes, like ignorance. stupidity, etc.
• Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, and how to form the rest of math from it.
• Quantum field theory (including its force-specific sub-theories) and relativity theory. (Or their successors.) And how to form the rest of physics from it.
• Neural networks. (Including especially natural ones.) And how to form the rest of neurology and, building on that, psychology (Explains the reasons for ignorance, schizophrenia, etc.) and mass-psychology from it. With a special focus on emotions and trigger systems.

For all those topics, the form of teaching should be
• by telling experiences made over the time line of history. (Obviously is a way that can and is followed by the listener.), and
• in the form of (computer/…) games with fun and motivation guarantee, or you get your money back.
Last edited by BAReFOOt on Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:02 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Angua » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:50 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
jdmulloy wrote:Why is 'if' spelled 'iff'?


Never took a course in formal logic, eh? Or probably not even math.

iff is defined as "if and only if" . Now I suppose I have to explain the difference between 'necessary' and 'sufficient,' or between 'one to one' and 'onto' ....

Condescending much? This didn't come up in my math course (I didn't do further maths) and I did quite well in that course. Formal logic isn't a requirement of any of my current courses. I didn't get that iff meant if and only if, but I I still know how the concepts work, even if I don't know the formal shorthand.

I also know the difference between necessary and sufficient, of course, that is kind of necessary in medicine, because a lot of things are necessary but not sufficient to cause disease.
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Sleaw » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:52 pm UTC

ineon wrote:Expecting people to follow instructions in formal logic probably isn't the smartest thing to do. I once spent about 5 minutes explaining the differences between logical if and the 'regular' definition of if (including the difference between if and iff, and why statements like "There's coke in the fridge if you are thirsty" don't make sense). I got the reply:

"If you say so"


It sounds like they just really didn't care about why you wanted to make things unnecessarily difficult. The meaning is obvious, what's the point of insisting it's not logical? :?

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby EpicanicusStrikes » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:54 pm UTC

I have a bumper sticker that reads: "Honk if you want me to run over that jerkwad jogging in the street."

Though, I don't actually need permission from other drivers. I just appreciate the solidarity.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby ahammel » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:54 pm UTC

My logic prof proved to us the the construction "p if OR only if q" is true no matter what the truth values of p and q are. He advised future politicians to take advantage of this in their speaches.

"I will raise taxes if or only if the economy is bad."
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby BAReFOOt » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:06 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Condescending much?


Insecure much? Inferiority complex much?

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Angua » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:08 pm UTC

Not really. Just pointing out that not knowing one bit of information does not mean you don't know anything else.
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby sdf_iain » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:21 pm UTC

EPAstor wrote:Is there any chance of getting this bumper sticker printed? No, really. I'd buy 5-10 of them.

Every single one of my colleagues needs one. My advisor most of all.


I'm not a fan of bumper stickers, could we get this printed as a bumper sticker sized magnet? I'd buy one for myself and suggest it to a few others (like the philosophy departments at any of the schools I've attended).

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Vael » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:24 pm UTC

Formal Logic and I have an open relationship, I wouldn't call it love.
I want to meet a philosophical pirate; they think, therefore they arrrrrrr.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby SirMustapha » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:29 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
jdmulloy wrote:Why is 'if' spelled 'iff'?


Never took a course in formal logic, eh? Or probably not even math.

iff is defined as "if and only if" . Now I suppose I have to explain the difference between 'necessary' and 'sufficient,' or between 'one to one' and 'onto' ....


And people complain about me.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Red Hal » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:44 pm UTC

Yes. Yes they do.
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby San Fran Sam » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:57 pm UTC

It only took 38 years but my introductory class to logic finally had a practical use. :P

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Elirra » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:18 pm UTC

SirMustapha wrote:
Elirra wrote:
SirMustapha wrote:Thank you for explaining the joke in the alt text, Randall. I would never get it otherwise.

(NOTE: This is completely sarcastic)

Thank you for explaining the sarcasm in the parantheses, SirMustapha. I would never get it otherwise.


You know about Poe's Law, don't you?

I was hoping you'd stick more with show don't tell. Or perhaps developing yourself as more of a character. Instead your comment has little value. You've said something sarcastic, then you've told us its sarcastic. Apparently you haven't even been doing this consistently enough or effectively enough for you to think we'll understand this. What kind of reader looks at your comments and thinks that they're insightful when at most all you've done is told us what is already apparent to anyone who's followed the forums for any reasonable amount of time. Really you're just some gimmick of sarcasm and contempt, nothing much gained, the same as any of the characters in the comic.

Though now I suspect at some point we'll discover that SirMustapha is Randall. He's the forum incarnation of relatively one dimensional character from the comics given a voice and an avatar picture. Think about it, you take a stick figure comic, with one dimensional characters, because if the art is going to be just lines the development should match. Then you get a little bit meta. You create a straw man critic on the forums who consistently nay-says and voices your own concerns over your own work.

I'd walk away from today happy if you said "I am Randall's sense of self loathing."

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby SirMustapha » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:13 pm UTC

You're getting desperate. Don't do that to yourself. And stop before this becomes yet another thread about me. Being famous is not easy, you know.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby flecks » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:31 pm UTC

What if I'm not really in love with formal logic but just using it for sex?

(I'd tap that)===true.

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San Fran Sam
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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby San Fran Sam » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:46 pm UTC

SirMustapha --

Been meaning to ask... is your avatar a Moomin?

SFS

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Lanjolo » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:52 pm UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:Yep. I think we should teach children, in that order: (Hmm, I went a bit over the top here, but I’m gonna post it anyway. :)

• Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, and how to form the rest of math from it.
• Quantum field theory (including its force-specific sub-theories) and relativity theory. (Or their successors.) And how to form the rest of physics from it.
• Neural networks. (Including especially natural ones.) And how to form the rest of neurology and, building on that, psychology (Explains the reasons for ignorance, schizophrenia, etc.) and mass-psychology from it. With a special focus on emotions and trigger systems.


You certainly have a lot of faith in the learning capabilities of children :)
Live forever or die trying.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby San Fran Sam » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:57 pm UTC

Lanjolo wrote:
BAReFOOt wrote:Yep. I think we should teach children, in that order: (Hmm, I went a bit over the top here, but I’m gonna post it anyway. :)

• Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, and how to form the rest of math from it.
• Quantum field theory (including its force-specific sub-theories) and relativity theory. (Or their successors.) And how to form the rest of physics from it.
• Neural networks. (Including especially natural ones.) And how to form the rest of neurology and, building on that, psychology (Explains the reasons for ignorance, schizophrenia, etc.) and mass-psychology from it. With a special focus on emotions and trigger systems.


You certainly have a lot of faith in the learning capabilities of children :)


It's easy once you take out the meatware and install a good old-fashioned positronic brain.

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby mspainter » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:13 pm UTC

I'm not the only one that sees a guy concentrating while shooting laser guns, right?

Like so:
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6476/carguy.png

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Re: 1033: "Formal Logic"

Postby Whys » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:20 pm UTC

Honk if you want the terrorists to win. :D


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