Dark Knight Rises

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby UniqueScreenname » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:35 am UTC

Spoiler:
I don't remember hearing anything about a plague, but I could have easily missed that. I am at least a little proud of myself for not assuming that kid was a boy. When I saw her, I thought it could go either way, and I suppose they did that on purpose.
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby pseudoidiot » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:33 am UTC

One of the most common complaints I've heard was the quality of the audio in places. It was really hard to hear some characters sometimes, so no surprise if bits and pieces were missed.
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Jorpho » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:40 am UTC

I finally just saw the movie too. I kind of missed a lot of the talky bits – not Bane trying to talk, just the ordinary conversations regarding the fusion reactor, the other company that wanted to buy out Wayne Enterprises (where did that come from?) and part of the explanation of the big twist:
Spoiler:
So were Bane and Miranda both in the League of Shadows, or what? And why?


I'm not sure if they were just hard to follow, or if I was being distracted by the chatterbox behind me. (I think it was some old woman trying to LOUDLY translate the movie into a foreign language for the even older man sitting next to her. Just what can you say to a person like that, other than, "Hey! Be quiet!" ?)

It was still a pretty nifty movie despite that, though, so I guess that's rather strongly in its favor.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Magnanimous » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:14 am UTC

Something I'm not entirely sure about: If you're trying to minimize the damage from the bomb, wouldn't dropping it in the water help more than just flying away really fast? Or is nuking Aquaman a bad thing?

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Ryom » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:48 am UTC

Only if you want a tsunami to wash over Gotham 8-)

Maybe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_explosion

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Gwydion » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:53 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
Spoiler:
So were Bane and Miranda both in the League of Shadows, or what? And why?

I believe the explanation given in the movie was that
Spoiler:
Miranda (aka Talia) was brought into the League when she escaped and tracked down her father, Ra's. Bane was also a member of the League, but was kicked out by Ra's because his presence reminded Ra's of the fact that he abandoned his child to the prison. Talia still loved Bane, and when Ra's died, Bane and Talia joined forces again to carry out her father's mission. I don't think it was ever explicitly stated, but I thought the implication was that Bane's fanatic followers were the rest of the League.
Then again, I also had a hard time understanding a lot of the dialogue, due to people around me loudly asking each other "what did he just say" all the damned time. So don't take my recollection as sure facts.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby UniqueScreenname » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:40 pm UTC

Magnanimous wrote:Something I'm not entirely sure about: If you're trying to minimize the damage from the bomb, wouldn't dropping it in the water help more than just flying away really fast? Or is nuking Aquaman a bad thing?

They had said the blast radius was something like 6 or 12 miles. I'm pretty sure 6. So he had to go far, far away. Oh yeah, and the tsunami.
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Jesse » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:44 pm UTC

UniqueScreenname wrote:
Magnanimous wrote:Something I'm not entirely sure about: If you're trying to minimize the damage from the bomb, wouldn't dropping it in the water help more than just flying away really fast? Or is nuking Aquaman a bad thing?

They had said the blast radius was something like 6 or 12 miles. I'm pretty sure 6. So he had to go far, far away. Oh yeah, and the tsunami.


Five mile blast radius.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Dason » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:00 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:
UniqueScreenname wrote:
Magnanimous wrote:Something I'm not entirely sure about: If you're trying to minimize the damage from the bomb, wouldn't dropping it in the water help more than just flying away really fast? Or is nuking Aquaman a bad thing?

They had said the blast radius was something like 6 or 12 miles. I'm pretty sure 6. So he had to go far, far away. Oh yeah, and the tsunami.


Five mile blast radius.

6 mile blast radius.
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Dark567 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:56 pm UTC

Ryom wrote:Only if you want a tsunami to wash over Gotham 8-)

Maybe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_explosion
I'm not sure having it above the water would prevent that.... If I detonate a bomb a couple hundred feet above water, but the bomb has a multi-mile blast radius, isn't it going to cause a tsunami anyway?
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Magnanimous » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:49 pm UTC

According to r/askscience, everything about the bomb was pretty much bullshit. I'm still not sure about the tsunami details, though.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Ryom » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:02 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Ryom wrote:Only if you want a tsunami to wash over Gotham 8-)

Maybe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_explosion
I'm not sure having it above the water would prevent that.... If I detonate a bomb a couple hundred feet above water, but the bomb has a multi-mile blast radius, isn't it going to cause a tsunami anyway?


Detonating underwater would distribute a hell of a lot more energy directly into the water than an air detonation. Most of the energy would reflect off the surface and back upwards and the rest would be dissipated as steam I would imagine versus ALL of it being directly transferred to the water.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Jorpho » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:04 am UTC

You have a point. I think that's how the old "bouncing" dam-busting bombs worked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouncing_bomb

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Adacore » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:07 am UTC

Do we know how high the Bat was flying when it detonated anyway? It's far enough away when the bomb goes off that I didn't think you could see it in the shot - maybe it was flying at an altitude of a mile or two, which would significantly reduce the impact of the explosion on the water.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:38 am UTC

Many of the nastier effects of nuclear explosions are line-of-sight, they can be blocked by earth or the horizon.

If we assume that the majority of Gotham's population was within 200 yards of sea level, then the bat would have had to have flown about 32 miles for the detonation to occur safely below the horizon at sea level. If the detonation occurred at an altitude of a mile, the bat would have had to fly closer to 120 miles for the detonation to be below the horizon.

I seem to recall that the device was described as having similar effects to a neutron bomb, which are estimated to deliver as much as 80% of their yield as high-energy neutrons (vs. closer to ten percent for conventional nuclear devices, and typically much lower energy neutrons).

Some back-of-the-envelope calculations (using mainly information from the invaluable Atomic Rockets site) indicate that a 4 Mt could produce lethal radiation flux at about 300-400 miles, so you'd definitely want a nice horizon between you and this device.

On the plus side, relatively little energy in a neutron bomb is delivered as thermal energy or x-rays. So, very little risk of a tsunami or surge.
Also, water is a neutron moderator, so minimal fallout.

on the other hand, sea water is full of salts and things that could be activated by the neutron radiation to produce some nasty isotopes. I have no idea how much of a danger that would actually be.
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Zohar » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:59 am UTC

Dason wrote:
Jesse wrote:Five mile blast radius.

6 mile blast radius.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby jawdisorder » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:57 pm UTC

Dason wrote:
Jesse wrote:Five mile blast radius.

6 mile blast radius.

I remember them saying it was 6 miles in the beginning but became weaker as time went on.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:20 pm UTC

jawdisorder wrote:
Dason wrote:
Jesse wrote:Five mile blast radius.

6 mile blast radius.

I remember them saying it was 6 miles in the beginning but became weaker as time went on.


Did anyone other than me think that for an unstable decaying bomb, it was an oddly specific time of detonation? Countdown clock and all?

I think the whole fusion reactor sub-plot ended up being remarkably sketchy, and they would have been far better served by some sort of simplistic "the bad guys steal a bomb" plot. At a minimum, it'd make the movie a lot easier to swallow.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby ArgonV » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:18 pm UTC

Or maybe 'just' several conventional nukes in several trucks, rolling through the city. This bomb was just dumb

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby freakish777 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:18 pm UTC

ArgonV wrote:Or maybe 'just' several conventional nukes in several trucks, rolling through the city.



But... we already know that Batman can't go to two different locations at once... that's a job for Superman...

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:26 pm UTC

ArgonV wrote:Or maybe 'just' several conventional nukes in several trucks, rolling through the city. This bomb was just dumb


Yeah. That would have necessitated a proper plot, and been well within the "it's a batman movie, I can swallow that" levels.

I was also confused by their bringing up the whole crippled knee thing only to dispense with it with a super brace, then never bring it up again. Just felt...pointless.

Honestly, the whole movie felt a bit rushed and scattered. Time-skips, tons of plotlines, locational jumps, the pacing was just abnormal all the way through.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Chen » Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:28 pm UTC

freakish777 wrote:But... we already know that Batman can't go to two different locations at once... that's a job for Superman...


Who really should have been called considering the gravity of the events in Gotham. I never really understood how Batman had problems with conventional villains when he's good buddies with Superman (more in the comics than in the Nolanverse continuity of course).

As for the bomb I presume it was a precise time because that's when its power source stopped working which somehow then caused the thing to detonate. Something like a field generated by the machine was keeping the fusion reaction from activating and once the power ran out that field stopped being generated and the modified fusion reaction went completely out of control.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Jorpho » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:06 am UTC

Indeed, they used much the same idea in Angels & Demons.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Adacore » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:29 am UTC

Chen wrote:
freakish777 wrote:But... we already know that Batman can't go to two different locations at once... that's a job for Superman...

Who really should have been called considering the gravity of the events in Gotham. I never really understood how Batman had problems with conventional villains when he's good buddies with Superman (more in the comics than in the Nolanverse continuity of course).

That's one of the two big reasons why I think it's silly to have all these superheroes in the same continuity (the other one explicitly relates to the X-Men, where the existence of so many superpowered individuals in the world really devalues the unique/special element of the non X-Men heroes in the Marvel universe).

I think the Nolanverse Batman is on his own, though, which solves the issue here.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Jorpho » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:11 am UTC

Haylookit, How It Should Have Ended did that thing they do.
http://www.howitshouldhaveended.com/vid ... 5300296001

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby AvatarIII » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:54 am UTC

Adacore wrote:
Chen wrote:
freakish777 wrote:But... we already know that Batman can't go to two different locations at once... that's a job for Superman...

Who really should have been called considering the gravity of the events in Gotham. I never really understood how Batman had problems with conventional villains when he's good buddies with Superman (more in the comics than in the Nolanverse continuity of course).

That's one of the two big reasons why I think it's silly to have all these superheroes in the same continuity (the other one explicitly relates to the X-Men, where the existence of so many superpowered individuals in the world really devalues the unique/special element of the non X-Men heroes in the Marvel universe).

I think the Nolanverse Batman is on his own, though, which solves the issue here.


Marvel even realised that at one point, and killed or de-powered all but 600 or so mutants in the world :lol:

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:51 am UTC

Chen wrote:
freakish777 wrote:But... we already know that Batman can't go to two different locations at once... that's a job for Superman...


Who really should have been called considering the gravity of the events in Gotham. I never really understood how Batman had problems with conventional villains when he's good buddies with Superman (more in the comics than in the Nolanverse continuity of course).

As for the bomb I presume it was a precise time because that's when its power source stopped working which somehow then caused the thing to detonate. Something like a field generated by the machine was keeping the fusion reaction from activating and once the power ran out that field stopped being generated and the modified fusion reaction went completely out of control.



What I don't understand is, if Wayne was so concerned about the safety of the reactor/bomb, why was it even possible to remove the core from the fail-safe thingy without flooding the chamber?

Oh wait, it's probably because the whole thing was a thinly veiled metaphor for nuclear power leading to weapons proliferation. So the state-of-the-art fusion thingy had to have basically the same fail-safes as a sixty year-old fission reactor design or the metaphor wouldn't work.

Tyndmyr wrote:
ArgonV wrote:Or maybe 'just' several conventional nukes in several trucks, rolling through the city. This bomb was just dumb


Yeah. That would have necessitated a proper plot, and been well within the "it's a batman movie, I can swallow that" levels.

I was also confused by their bringing up the whole crippled knee thing only to dispense with it with a super brace, then never bring it up again. Just felt...pointless.

Honestly, the whole movie felt a bit rushed and scattered. Time-skips, tons of plotlines, locational jumps, the pacing was just abnormal all the way through.


Yea, one thing I noticed were a few cuts that felt like, I dunno, television cuts or something. The sort of shots that you'd expect to see right before, or right after a commercial break, shots that lingered for too long on a scene that's ended, such as in case the cut to commercial comes a second or two early, or so people settling back in after the break don't miss anything (The one that immediately leaps to mind is when Bruce is driving the sports car, as one point he drives out of the shot, but the shot lingers on nothing in particular before cutting away to the next scene). Completely pointless in a movie though.
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Zarq » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:06 am UTC

AvatarIII wrote:
Adacore wrote:
Chen wrote:
freakish777 wrote:But... we already know that Batman can't go to two different locations at once... that's a job for Superman...

Who really should have been called considering the gravity of the events in Gotham. I never really understood how Batman had problems with conventional villains when he's good buddies with Superman (more in the comics than in the Nolanverse continuity of course).

That's one of the two big reasons why I think it's silly to have all these superheroes in the same continuity (the other one explicitly relates to the X-Men, where the existence of so many superpowered individuals in the world really devalues the unique/special element of the non X-Men heroes in the Marvel universe).

I think the Nolanverse Batman is on his own, though, which solves the issue here.


Marvel even realised that at one point, and killed or de-powered all but 600 198 or so mutants in the world :lol:


FTFY
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby AvatarIII » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:14 am UTC

Zarq wrote:
AvatarIII wrote:
Adacore wrote:
Chen wrote:
freakish777 wrote:But... we already know that Batman can't go to two different locations at once... that's a job for Superman...

Who really should have been called considering the gravity of the events in Gotham. I never really understood how Batman had problems with conventional villains when he's good buddies with Superman (more in the comics than in the Nolanverse continuity of course).

That's one of the two big reasons why I think it's silly to have all these superheroes in the same continuity (the other one explicitly relates to the X-Men, where the existence of so many superpowered individuals in the world really devalues the unique/special element of the non X-Men heroes in the Marvel universe).

I think the Nolanverse Batman is on his own, though, which solves the issue here.


Marvel even realised that at one point, and killed or de-powered all but 600 198 or so mutants in the world :lol:


FTFY


Thanks, I don't follow Marvel continuity that much, not sure where I got the 600 figure from, even so I was in the right order of magnitude at least :D

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Christo » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:28 pm UTC

How It Should Have Ended did a fair parody of a few of the major plot issues with the film: http://bcove.me/uilzpc1j
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby SurgicalSteel » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:08 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Oh wait, it's probably because the whole thing was a thinly veiled metaphor for nuclear power leading to weapons proliferation. So the state-of-the-art fusion thingy had to have basically the same fail-safes as a sixty year-old fission reactor design or the metaphor wouldn't work.
I actually didn't see that particular metaphor. In my mind the bomb/reactor was a metaphor for firearms. Maybe my mind went there first because of Batman's famous aversion to guns. Both are mechanical devices that are neither inherently evil nor good, but can be used for both depending on the human factor. And just like firearms, Bruce Wayne scrapped the reactor after he learned it could possibly be used for evil.
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Jorpho » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:56 am UTC

One other thing: Wayne gets a magical external knee brace installed early in the movie; wouldn't its removal in the prison be a more than effective way of disabling him?

I suppose the counterargument is that wall climbing is pretty much an upper-body thing and that we never actually see him running at any point in the film.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:59 am UTC

For that matter, how does he get back the Bat-suit?
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Magnanimous » Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:29 am UTC

He probably has batups in his mansion.

... Er, backups.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:46 am UTC

He lost his mansion in the stock fraud, right? And it's not like it would have been hard for Bane to nab it along with all the other batinventory.
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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Jesse » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:25 am UTC

Remember the second film, where he was living out of that trailer thing that's not connected to him in any way at all? He definitely had spare stuff there, including a Bat-suit. Also, he didn't lose his mansion in the stock thing, he explicitly states "They're letting me keep the house." to Selina.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby freakish777 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:54 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:Remember the second film, where he was living out of that trailer thing that's not connected to him in any way at all? He definitely had spare stuff there, including a Bat-suit. Also, he didn't lose his mansion in the stock thing, he explicitly states "They're letting me keep the house." to Selina.



Also, presumably, the bat cave itself is safe from anyone finding it (without being given a map).

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Gwydion » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:02 pm UTC

freakish777 wrote:
Jesse wrote:Remember the second film, where he was living out of that trailer thing that's not connected to him in any way at all? He definitely had spare stuff there, including a Bat-suit. Also, he didn't lose his mansion in the stock thing, he explicitly states "They're letting me keep the house." to Selina.



Also, presumably, the bat cave itself is safe from anyone finding it (without being given a map).

Spoiler:
Or a set of GPS coordinates, apparently. It didn't seem that hard for Joseph Gordon-Levitt to find once he got to the right location...

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby freakish777 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:38 pm UTC

Gwydion wrote:
Spoiler:
Or a set of GPS coordinates, apparently. It didn't seem that hard for Joseph Gordon-Levitt to find once he got to the right location...

Spoiler:
Yeah, that's what I was referring to. GPS Coords. Map. Same thing, different technologies.

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Re: Dark Knight Rises

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:28 pm UTC

SurgicalSteel wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Oh wait, it's probably because the whole thing was a thinly veiled metaphor for nuclear power leading to weapons proliferation. So the state-of-the-art fusion thingy had to have basically the same fail-safes as a sixty year-old fission reactor design or the metaphor wouldn't work.
I actually didn't see that particular metaphor. In my mind the bomb/reactor was a metaphor for firearms. Maybe my mind went there first because of Batman's famous aversion to guns. Both are mechanical devices that are neither inherently evil nor good, but can be used for both depending on the human factor. And just like firearms, Bruce Wayne scrapped the reactor after he learned it could possibly be used for evil.


Nah, he just left it sitting there. Not scrapped, per se. Not used. Just...left it. It seems like the worst possible decision, and a really clumsy set-up for a bomb.

Jorpho wrote:One other thing: Wayne gets a magical external knee brace installed early in the movie; wouldn't its removal in the prison be a more than effective way of disabling him?

I suppose the counterargument is that wall climbing is pretty much an upper-body thing and that we never actually see him running at any point in the film.


Eh, it's just not addressed. It's weird. His knee is messed up, then he gets a brace, and bam, it just goes away. It's not a plot element that's relevant to anything else, and I don't really know why it was there. Perhaps to further the image of an older/darker batman? I dunno.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:For that matter, how does he get back the Bat-suit?


Hell, he goes from being broke, on foot, and sort of messed up on the far side of the world to back in a cut-off from the world city as batman without even cursory explanation. And while the clock is ticking. Now, I won't deny that he CAN do that...he's the Batman. But at least a throw-away line or two of explanation would have been nice.


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