1190: "Time"

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Angelastic
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Angelastic » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:22 am UTC

Exodies wrote:Those who believe it will continue endlessly with no recurring pattern should be drug into the street and shot. There is a finite number of Pixels in a Frame, so there is a finite number of Frames, so there is a finite number of permutations of those Frames, so if the Comic continues endlessly it is in a loop.

By the same logic, anyone who believes in irrational numbers (which have nonrepeating, nonterminating digits, even in binary where there are only two different symbols) should be shot. This was probably acceptable back in the day, but now we know better.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby silent_death » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:27 am UTC

BlitzGirl wrote:<snip>
Immediately after that, this happened:
Spoiler:
SBN wrote:
imagineddragon wrote:
AionArap wrote:
bigcrag92 wrote:
AionArap wrote:
BlitzGirl wrote:<signpost snip>


Sanity Shmanity, this girl is an absolute trooper.
If When she finally catches up to the present Time I propose she be given an honorary cardinalship for sheer devoutness and perseverance.

Go go fellow Time traveller.


I here-by create the post of cardinal tempus viator which shall be reserved for BlitzGirl for when she catches up to this point in the thread


Seems appropriate.


Go Quest Girl, Go! May rivers of semen and babies guide you to the end, which is only the beginning. OR middle, we aren't really sure? It could almost be at the end, but I doubt it. This is forever. I feel it in my SOUL!


Hurry up and Wait?
Is it possible to be a knight and a cardinal at the same time? Do I really need both titles? I kind of like being a knight. But I guess I'll add the cardinal one, because you can't really say no to an honorary title, can you?</snip>


I think by now Blitzgirl is a honorary Member of every Church we have, as a few pages ago she was given a honorary Title by Kryton, the honored pope of our sacred eastern Church of unorthodox Timewaiters.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Smithers » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:39 am UTC

cmyk wrote:RefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefresh
RefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefresh
RefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefresh
RefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefresh
... sip of Pepsi... RefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefresh
RefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefresh
RefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefresh
RefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefresh
RefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefreshRefresh...

And people wonder why the server has issues.
cmyk wrote:
Latent22 wrote:
Exodies wrote:<snip> ...which comes to 3x10^61439.


Pfff. Almost as many pages in this thread.

Who's going to start the Book Of Not-Time, with a page of commentary on each of the 7.88...x10526043-608 frames which have not appeared in the comic?
Lord Randall, Creator of the One True Comic wrote:Wait for it.

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Re: What is real?

Postby elementropy » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:55 am UTC

Davidy wrote:
mscha wrote:
Davidy wrote:Why has no one come up with a reasonable explanation of how the platform/boards/ballisters/railings/bucket/sand/cueball/who-knows-what-else are so securely balanced on four linearly placed vertical posts without falling over? If there weren't apparent movement behind the castles (has it been determined whether the platform is behind the castles, or in front of them?), the balancing act would lend credence to the theory that this is flat world. On the other hand, if it was flat world, various things like Cueball, Megan, the boards and the ladder wouldn't be seen as different from the front and side views; they would only have one view. And a flat trebuchet wouldn't work. OK, so it's 3-D and the actors here have a sense of balance worthy of the best Ringlling Brothers act. But, notice the ladder; when the platform was first being built, Cueball placed the ladder edge-on to us. In that position, they were unable to reach it from atop the platform. It has been repositioned now flat to us and leaning on the same pole as before. In this position, the top of the ladder is actually further from the edge of the platform than it was before, yet the platform is now somehow accessible? I think we're left with the only conclusion - none of this is real. It's just a made up comic world with no reality. Oh sure, there are those of you who will profess that the Lord works in mysterious ways. That may be but even mysterious ways have some grounding in logic, physics and reality.

Meh!


It's not 2D, or 3D, but 2½D. Ant farm physics. (There's only about a meter or so in the “z” dimension, so not enough room for the platform to fall.)

If "Z" is one meter, the platform would still tip if were only half that width. When the platform bases were brought in and raised they were shown to be about 1/2 as wide as the length of the small ones. If they're as long as, for instance, Megan is tall, they'd be just under 3 feet wide. They wouldn't rest securely on 8-10 inch posts. We don't know how big the posts are but, assuming they're wood, they can't be too big - remember, Megan was able to lift and place them by herself.


I don't usually self-quote, but no one responded, originally:
elementropy wrote:What if there are eight poles? As our view seems to be rather lacking in depth-perception, might there be two poles every place we observe only one; one of the pair in front and one behind? The funny triangle things on either end may simply be what the railing we "see" looks like in profile. And, assuming that the lines intersecting cueball are indeed a railing in front of him, there may be one behind him as well.

Just because you can't see it, it doesn't mean it's not there.

...or twelve poles. There are lots of spaces where things have happened that we do not see. It stands to reason that other materials could have been brought in between the frames we see, and that construction has happened that we have not witnessed directly. If they are climbing on to the platform from below, there certainly must be "3d" features that we cannot see, things that allow them to climb up from behind, in front, or through a trap door that places them behind and/or in front of the railings we see.
Think about it. Maybe I'm alone here, but I think it makes more sense from a practical perspective than assuming a departure from "real-world" physics/engineering principles or an arbitrary constraint on the dimension-we-do-not-see. In short, Randall is brilliant and understands these basic structural concepts we are debating--as the structure has not shown us obvious signs of instability as they have climbed upon and built it, my suspicion is that he is not concerned with the structural stability of 2-dimensional balance beams or narrow planks being part of the story.
/rant

Let me add one thing: thank you, all for being so interested in discussing stuff like this...this really is a great impromptu community.
Last edited by elementropy on Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:02 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SBN » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:01 pm UTC

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astrotter wrote:It is not particularly clear to me at this time that we are not overanalyzing this...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby kryton » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:15 pm UTC

HAL9000 wrote:
jjjdavidson wrote:Okay, YANTOTEE*.
Ebonite wrote:I went back and re-watched them build the structure at the top of the platform. It appears to me that it may not necessarily be attached to the platform, but merely resting on top of it.

I myself wrote:So why, with such a carefully planned structure, is there no staircase? ... I was simply trying to think of a reason why their plan didn't include an easier way to get up and down than a single shaky ladder.

And now Cueball is carrying loads of sand up to the railing.

Combine these three points: A railed platform resting loose, no permanent staircase, and loads of sand. All that's missing are some canvas bags (maybe in the bottom of the original tool bukkit, still sitting up there) to hold ballast.

Clearly, at some point in the distant future, they will inflate a large cloth envelope and reveal that the platform is the gondola of a helium balloon**. They will drift away into the sky, leaving their castle (and a few poles) to be washed away by the tide. Then Time will Loop. I wonder where they'll float next.
Spoiler:
(Right back here, obviously.)


*Yet another new Theory of Time's Eventual Ending (though, as a Loopist, I use "ending" loosely)
**Do hot-air balloons use disposable ballast?

They'll have to watch out for spiders.

But didn't we see Megan lean over and tie the rope between the platform and the posts?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SBN » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:18 pm UTC

kryton wrote:But didn't we see Megan lean over and tie the rope between the platform and the posts?


We saw her lean over. I couldn't tell what she was doing. Possibly undoing some temporary fastening needed before the upper platform was complete.

Time will tell.
astrotter wrote:It is not particularly clear to me at this time that we are not overanalyzing this...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Eutychus » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:28 pm UTC

Am I the only one starting to be worried about the weight of the sand on those not-interpretation-boards?
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Re: What is real?

Postby NoMouse » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:33 pm UTC

elementropy wrote:...or twelve poles. There are lots of spaces where things have happened that we do not see. It stands to reason that other materials could have been brought in between the frames we see, and that construction has happened that we have not witnessed directly. If they are climbing on to the platform from below, there certainly must be "3d" features that we cannot see, things that allow them to climb up from behind, in front, or through a trap door that places them behind and/or in front of the railings we see.
Think about it. Maybe I'm alone here, but I think it makes more sense from a practical perspective than assuming a departure from "real-world" physics/engineering principles or an arbitrary constraint on the dimension-we-do-not-see. In short, Randall is brilliant and understands these basic structural concepts we are debating--as the structure has not shown us obvious signs of instability as they have climbed upon and built it, my suspicion is that he is not concerned with the structural stability of 2-dimensional balance beams or narrow planks being part of the story.
/rant

Let me add one thing: thank you, all for being so interested in discussing stuff like this...this really is a great impromptu community.

Or, what if the poles are 'T' shaped?
Time. The final frontier. These are the voyages of Cueball and Megan. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:33 pm UTC

Eutychus wrote:Am I the only one starting to be worried about the weight of the sand on those not-interpretation-boards?

Well, if it's 2D sand, then it won't weigh anything. 8-)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby cmyk » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:33 pm UTC

Cueball, what the hell are you doing?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:35 pm UTC

This would go so much faster if Megan would be there and they'd use some kind of pulley system.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Eutychus » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:36 pm UTC

mscha wrote:
Eutychus wrote:Am I the only one starting to be worried about the weight of the sand on those not-interpretation-boards?

Well, if it's 2D sand, then it won't weigh anything. 8-)


I already considered that, but I'm still worrying.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby cmyk » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:38 pm UTC

mscha wrote:This would go so much faster if Megan would be there and they'd use some kind of pulley system.


Or bring some friends and form a friggin bucket line, with the promise of pizza and beer afterwards.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby buffygirl » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:40 pm UTC

cmyk wrote:
buffygirl wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
buffygirl wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
cmyk wrote:
Spoiler:
buffygirl wrote:
buffygirl wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
tman2nd wrote:
cmyk wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
elementropy wrote:
buffygirl wrote:Elementropy, Time Bandit, TimeWaiter Liturgist, Oxford Comma, and A Greek Omelette with Fries and Tomato Juice, Hold-the-toast-please in the Order of Breakfast, I, Timewaiter Arch-Cardinal Buffygirl, She who Rises From The Flames Like A Phoenix To Continue With Her Pursuit of Hat Perfection, do hereby present you with your hat.

derbyHat-egg-smlr.jpg


Wear it well.


My God...it's full of stars...

Is it now.

I suppose that's nice and all, but nothing beats the Monolith Hat...

Image

Give it to HAL. :D

So it is written, so it shall be done.

Well, it would be, if I could. I'll attach the file I used for my avatar, if someone else would be so kind to attach the hat for me (I am lacking a program capable of removing multicolored backgrounds)

You know not what you ask! And yes, I'll do it.


Right. Ask and ye shall receive.

BIG HAT FOR HAL2.jpg
Ninja'd by my liege, but hey, another version if you feel like a little variety...

Image

Very nice. And perfectly avatar-sized, too! I think I'll switch to this one, and keep Buffygirl's in reserve in case I want some variety.
Note: deleted and reposted to see if that fixes the display issues. Fun with spoilers!

HAL9000 wrote:
buffygirl wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
buffygirl wrote:
Right. Ask and ye shall receive.


YES


FTFY with the link. MWAH!

I shall wear it proudly.
EDIT: I have an entire folder on my desktop devoted to pictures from this thread. Is that normal?


YOU STOLE THE IMAGE I MADE FOR YOU AND MADE IT YOUR OWN!!?!!! (great feelings of anger and self-righteousness). I MUST OBJECT and yet still approve . . . WAIT NO! coolie thingy you did! And said you (didn't have the software) to make it so ... wait, YOU LIED! Shit, having BSG flashbacks.

Yeah, I'll prolly get over it.

But do not forget -- I AM THE HAT QUEEN. CREATE HATS WITHOUT MY BLESSING AND YOU RISK MY WRATH!!!!! shoot, I need to figure out what my "wrath" is ...

Oh, and . . . I spent an hour on that picture ... and what you did with it is better than mine. . . . I want to die (not really)

I was the one lacking software, not cmyk.
Also, don't fret about cmyk's quality of work compared to yours. He also made the 'last frames' r34/explosion .gif, among other image-manipulation opuses (opi?).
cmyk wrote:
boozledorf wrote:Is anyone else having trouble viewing the comic (or the page in general)?
Yep. I think we broke xkcd. And by we, I mean HAL9000.

I have picked up a fault in the AE35 unit.

*Sighs* But my artwork has been stolen, and it is no longer mine, although it began as mine. Nevermind that none of the images involved in my piece were of my own original artwork ... the talent was in the merging of the two!! So say I! . . . WOOT!


MGM and Abraham Lincoln's estate are frantically contacting their copyright lawyers.

I think I might have overreacted a bit ...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SBN » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:01 pm UTC

Image
astrotter wrote:It is not particularly clear to me at this time that we are not overanalyzing this...

Randalspeed thunk, iskinner, and other blitzers! Notes from the before-was improve the after-when.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby kryton » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:11 pm UTC

Blitzgirl worry not about being a cardinaled knight. Cardinalship is an honors bestowed, not ordained. A pope can appoint anyone to cardinal, it is only the arch bishops appointed to cardinal that have vows of non competition and voting rights. you can thank me by putting an offering in the plate
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby kryton » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:17 pm UTC

mscha wrote:This would go so much faster if Megan would be there and they'd use some kind of pulley system.

Just be cautious of the story about the construction worker and the barrel of bricks.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby buffygirl » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:26 pm UTC

elementropy wrote:Arch-Cardinal buffygirl: Beautiful work with the hats; I must say that your own new hat is radiant.

Thankies!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edo » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:56 pm UTC

cmyk wrote:
KarMann wrote:
cmyk wrote:
boozledorf wrote:
Exodies wrote:Those who believe it will continue endlessly with no recurring pattern should be drug into the street and shot. There is a finite number of Pixels in a Frame, so there is a finite number of Frames, so there is a finite number of permutations of those Frames, so if the Comic continues endlessly it is in a loop.

????
In base 10, Pi is infinite without a loop, yet it never uses anything other than the same 10 digits.


Mathematically, there's such thing as an infinite circumference in a finite area (fractals), and the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter happens to be irrational, but irrational numbers are incommensurable in a purely mathematic context.

Here, we're are dealing with a particular set of integers, with some variables, but quantified so it can be easily calculated:

There's a finite number of frames because there's no time to create an infinite amount... but that's moot since; each frame consists of a discreet (and constant in this case), finite number of pixels (553px * 395px = 218,435px per frame); and each of those pixels can be any of a finite set of colors (e.g. color depth in graphics increases by powers of two: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256...). Take all these factors, and you can multiply the knowns with whatever variables and this will tell you exactly how many unique looking frames are possible.

So even given infinite time to crank out frames, there's only so many you could make before you repeated one.


Another example: If you were asked to fill in a 25x25 grid with the 26 letters of the English alphabet, but from 16 different colored sets of the alphabet — How many unique grids letter combinations can be scrawled into a 25x25 grid, including 16 color variations of each letter?

25 rows * 25 columns = 625 cells

26 letters * 16 different colors = 416 uniquely colored letters.

So, 625 letters, taken out of a 416 letters, gives you an absolute total of how many unique grids you can create. This comes to, 8.57692557x101636

Or, written out in long form:
Spoiler:
(I didn't have the time to add the comma every three digits — thank god for scientific notation!)

85769255778871066167842583477184205966818713611231945734542355696781054961044431622807381374127370949638217870575233793918056949563234746629451075950084493495966499561234879395720889991513822812918142566676819014236714485408669764224172980459265586923012708887344182767308820261841014712809422731723006793003933943916002424718589370158582648060671825923290627110566506795580106436699952410457496756316550099822600466292981076863167441302375041510965239413957840563748094561613357761739349054251113784868113007642713349765679339037727864545550715485262643273585900741339607929987897270681645228197962894803488121955303099593833012920183994846425001692767283849807298162796811490271314787845636027165492717134676978432096416839881205731404155642357170517070144823632919468735045744298180701072918735660376923152098955932285105856372396108057344158834655840955287889066743101613160065885897905878440624124524430932511826518999116347049194020420695135435187123703480338339273067595920563008878901521669001807802697024614835457636739848808375999166882175854293147051221343178900098567093910464131511951660629474587296390174261394878631377065422426258069175649852314143667644839099452641819266597069861978594463885933083619783766075995594748323591928018696121017627499841827073808355488207337606991293598504771149785826373857057149906765234933644700348282031433656459081791384819908512895341393626936890200358014162398806457462761252633353179603241563445527948198499229691507050702991693363039830729376247309041354199872968108813105617351297062996429869334079216437776662260296565746427800309510452552408886251689868256408539554946178273509376

But we're not talking about just repeating a single frame; heck, that's already happened. We're talking about sequences of frames, and there are an infinite variety of sequences.


Of course that is true. I was saying there's only a finite amount of possible unique looking frames. But yes, if you assigned each frame of 3x1061439 possible frames to a specific decimal sequence in pi, (say frame 17,891,234,990,012,405,927,666,101,200,089 to a decimal place in pi wherever, for example, the sequence "...9994234567872929484567392..." crops up in pi), then surely it can play infinitely.

Wouldn't want to watch it though.


Information theory folks! Most of the frames you're talking about would be noise. For all. Intents and purposes, he's just drawing a line separating white from black.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby silent_death » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:06 pm UTC

Am I the only one that thinks that Blitzgirl is turning into some kind of Messiah/Prophet ?

Something great will definitly happen once she reaches the now. I foresee the next great Shism of Beliefs happening upon her arrival.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby htom » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:17 pm UTC

cmyk wrote:Thought this was cool, in thinking of assigning frames to pi. This guy made an image by color coding Base 10, and rendering the first 40,000 digits of pi as individual pixels. The results:

Spoiler:
(0 = white, 1 = cyan, 2 = blue, 3 = magenta, 4 = green, 5 = orange, 6 = red, 7 = yellow, 8 = grey, 9 = black.)
*the decimal is displayed as white, also the mods don't allow the use of proper red.
Image


If you cross your eyes, you can see a 3D sailboat!


Oh, WOW! That is a different way of seeing π I love it. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Now, the infinite without a loop. A NewPix can be expressed as a binary string, each pixel a value 0-255, left-to-right, top-to-bottom. Somewhere in the expansion of π there is that string. Actually, it's there an infinite number of times, as is the string 999 or 123 or .... All of the NewPix are there in π, the past, the present, the future. The sequence of NewPix we have seen is there, an infinite number of times. Some of those have the next NewPix as their successor. An infinite number of them, in fact. Search down π, find some of those, choose one, show the discovered NewPix, and search again. Time is infinite and does not loop. Any loop we see is merely a delusion.
Last edited by htom on Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:00 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Angelastic » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:59 pm UTC

htom wrote:A NewPix can be expressed as a binary string, each pixel a value 0-255, left-to-right, top-to-bottom. Somewhere in the expansion of π there is that string. Actually, it's there an infinite number of times, as is the string 999 or 123 or .... All of the NewPix are there in π, the past, the present, the future. The sequence of NewPix we have seen is there, an infinite number of times.

Not necessarily. That would be true if π were a normal number (or at least rich in whatever base you're using, I guess), but that hasn't been proven.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Sciscitor » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:14 pm UTC

Either Cueball is preparing to drop a sandbomb on both of the sandcastles from the railing of the plattform or he is adding ballast weight for a future dirigible (which I think wouldn't be impossible given the two poles in the middle.

Also: Is it just me, or didn't the sealevel rise for a while?

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby htom » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:32 pm UTC

Angelastic wrote:
htom wrote:A NewPix can be expressed as a binary string, each pixel a value 0-255, left-to-right, top-to-bottom. Somewhere in the expansion of π there is that string. Actually, it's there an infinite number of times, as is the string 999 or 123 or .... All of the NewPix are there in π, the past, the present, the future. The sequence of NewPix we have seen is there, an infinite number of times.

Not necessarily. That would be true if π were a normal number (or at least rich in whatever base you're using, I guess), but that hasn't been proven.


Huh. I thought that Bailey & Chandler had established that π was normal, but no, they didn't. (This is far from my learnings, obviously!) The things you learn (or unlearn?) on line in a chattering about a web comic.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby udscbt » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

I come from page 293 (I've been absent for about 72 TF) and I've only read this page, so excuse me if I'm missing something while writing this.
About the "if the comic will have an infinite number of frames, it will certainly loop" theory, I have a very simple counterexample. Let's take two different Frames and call them A and B; at one point of Time, Randall could decide to do this: for each n from 1 to ∞, show n consecutive A frames, then n B frames (i.e. ABAABBAAABBBAAAABBBB...). This way the comic will continue indefinitely without ever looping, using only 2 (TWO) Frames. If you want me to demonstrate it isn't a loop, let me know (I haven't done it because I don't want to think about it, anyway it should be obvious that it won't loop).
udscbt (a.k.a アダスチボト), Cardinal of the Timewaiters, Prefect of the Congregatio pro Doctrina Temporis, peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Burn y'all heretics!
buffygirl wrote:I, Timewaiter Buffygirl, Cardinal of The One True Comic, do hereby nominate you, udscbt, for the position of Cardinal. -poof!- You're a peanut butter and jelly sandwich! Wait, that's not right - - -

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bigcrag92 (continued...) wrote:by the power vested in me I now name you Cardinal peanut butter and jelly sandwich udscbt. arise my brethren

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Exodies » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:47 pm UTC

mscha wrote:
Eutychus wrote:Am I the only one starting to be worried about the weight of the sand on those not-interpretation-boards?

Well, if it's 2D sand, then it won't weigh anything. 8-)

As there are no 2d Higgs bosons? Yeah. Right.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby chem1190c » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:01 pm UTC

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Exodies » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:04 pm UTC

udscbt wrote:I come from page 293 (I've been absent for about 72 TF) and I've only read this page, so excuse me if I'm missing something while writing this.
About the "if the comic will have an infinite number of frames, it will certainly loop" theory, I have a very simple counterexample. Let's take two different Frames and call them A and B; at one point of Time, Randall could decide to do this: for each n from 1 to ∞, show n consecutive A frames, then n B frames (i.e. ABAABBAAABBBAAAABBBB...). This way the comic will continue indefinitely without ever looping, using only 2 (TWO) Frames. If you want me to demonstrate it isn't a loop, let me know (I haven't done it because I don't want to think about it, anyway it should be obvious that it won't loop).

There is a simpler counter example to my original claim - 2 Frames and the Comic consists of Frame 1 followed by an infinite number of Frame 2. This is not a loop.

However. I have been on a long walk and had a long think and have sent the excavators in to Westminster Abbey to dig up the infinite but no loop infidels. They will be thrown in a ditch and covered in quick lime to encourage the others. And this is why - we have been looking only at the mathematics of permutations but the Comic is driven by a, whatsit, narrative not science and one step demands the next. If the same frame shows up, the same next frame must thereafter appear. With a finite number of possible frames, the Comic will loop.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby EraObserver » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:08 pm UTC

Let me say, as a person who has perused the pages here (albeit not all, alas I am an unfaithful brother), but I have enjoyed thoroughly the insanity that has been these pages.

Further, as I cannot help myself, I must state the great hope which the one called BlitzGirl brings to us who read but do not post.

silent_death wrote:
BlitzGirl wrote:<snip>
Immediately after that, this happened:
Spoiler:
SBN wrote:
imagineddragon wrote:
AionArap wrote:
bigcrag92 wrote:
AionArap wrote:
BlitzGirl wrote:<signpost snip>


Sanity Shmanity, this girl is an absolute trooper.
If When she finally catches up to the present Time I propose she be given an honorary cardinalship for sheer devoutness and perseverance.

Go go fellow Time traveller.


I here-by create the post of cardinal tempus viator which shall be reserved for BlitzGirl for when she catches up to this point in the thread


Seems appropriate.


Go Quest Girl, Go! May rivers of semen and babies guide you to the end, which is only the beginning. OR middle, we aren't really sure? It could almost be at the end, but I doubt it. This is forever. I feel it in my SOUL!


Hurry up and Wait?
Is it possible to be a knight and a cardinal at the same time? Do I really need both titles? I kind of like being a knight. But I guess I'll add the cardinal one, because you can't really say no to an honorary title, can you?</snip>


I think by now Blitzgirl is a honorary Member of every Church we have, as a few pages ago she was given a honorary Title by Kryton, the honored pope of our sacred eastern Church of unorthodox Timewaiters.


I believe that one has been missed. So let me, as the unofficial non-representative and now non-member of Readers in the Darkness AKA Those who read but do not post, bestow upon Blitzgirl upon her reading this the title/office of the "Hope of the Non-Committal Waiters". Blitzgirl, may you use my sacrifice of destroying any hope of returning to my brothers in the darkness as a way to bring courage to those who wait, but not fervently.

Spoiler:
I apologize for my insanity, but after skimming 300 pages since the beginning, I could not resist.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Actaeus » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:09 pm UTC

Exodies wrote:
udscbt wrote:I come from page 293 (I've been absent for about 72 TF) and I've only read this page, so excuse me if I'm missing something while writing this.
About the "if the comic will have an infinite number of frames, it will certainly loop" theory, I have a very simple counterexample. Let's take two different Frames and call them A and B; at one point of Time, Randall could decide to do this: for each n from 1 to ∞, show n consecutive A frames, then n B frames (i.e. ABAABBAAABBBAAAABBBB...). This way the comic will continue indefinitely without ever looping, using only 2 (TWO) Frames. If you want me to demonstrate it isn't a loop, let me know (I haven't done it because I don't want to think about it, anyway it should be obvious that it won't loop).

There is a simpler counter example to my original claim - 2 Frames and the Comic consists of Frame 1 followed by an infinite number of Frame 2. This is not a loop.

However. I have been on a long walk and had a long think and have sent the excavators in to Westminster Abbey to dig up the infinite but no loop infidels. They will be thrown in a ditch and covered in quick lime to encourage the others. And this is why - we have been looking only at the mathematics of permutations but the Comic is driven by a, whatsit, narrative not science and one step demands the next. If the same frame shows up, the same next frame must thereafter appear. With a finite number of possible frames, the Comic will loop.


Well, I think we've been using "it won't loop" to mean "it won't end in an infinite loop".

As for the same frame / same nextframe correspondence: this is disproven by the repeated frames we saw earlier. There was a frame that could be followed by either itself, or by the next distinct frame. So the comic could easily end in a not-quite-loop where the repeated frame sticks around for one newpix longer each time.

In other words, we've seen ....ABCDDEF.... this time, but next time it could be ....ABCDDDEF... and so on.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby chem1190c » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but what's going on with that support beam?
(refer to red arrow)
support_beam_1.png


It looks like whatever material is holding it in place right now (rope? duct tape? yarn?) may be starting to fray!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby buffygirl » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:17 pm UTC

chem1190c wrote:I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but what's going on with that support beam?
(refer to red arrow)
support_beam_1.png


It looks like whatever material is holding it in place right now (rope? duct tape? yarn?) may be starting to fray!

Look at frames 509-512 -- it's just the dangling rope from when they raised the platform thingy.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby chem1190c » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:19 pm UTC

buffygirl wrote:
chem1190c wrote:I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but what's going on with that support beam?
(refer to red arrow)
support_beam_1.png


It looks like whatever material is holding it in place right now (rope? duct tape? yarn?) may be starting to fray!

Look at frames 509-512 -- it's just the dangling rope from when they raised the platform thingy.


Ah! Good call, looks like it's been there for a while.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Exodies » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:20 pm UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:
Spoiler:
Except for the last few posts, I've seen relatively little numerical analysis of Time so far. Let me look at some basic stuff.

Disclaimer: I am a loopist by choice and belief. I believe and hope that Time will eventually loop, though I accept the possibility of some pretty strange loops.

Each frame is 553 by 395 pixels.

Are 553 and 395 significant in themselves? Comic 553 "Pirate Bay" seems random enough, but comic 395 "Morning" has distinctly unsettling overtones for Time.

553=79x7. 395=79x5. Is the number 79 significant? Or the 7:5 aspect ratio? Comic 79 "Iambic Pentameter" is one of the "My Hobby" series, but doesn't seem to relate to Time in any specific way.

Wikipedia informs me that 553 is the sum of nine consecutive primes (43+47+53+59+61+67+71+73+79) and 395 is the sum of five consecutive primes (71+73+79+83+89). Note the reappearance of 79 in each of these sequences.

Least common multiple: 79x7x5=2765.

Of course, there is no comic 2765 yet. That will come in Time.

Could 2765 be the number of planned frames? This has distinct advantages. It allows for a long run of Time, better than three Outside months at the current rate. If Time eventually loops, then even if the update speed changes to every 5 outside minutes (288 updates / day), the comic would still take nearly 10 days to cycle.

If Time loops, 2765 is relatively prime with 24 (and 48), so that someone who visits Time repeatedly over several Loops won't see the same frames at the same Outside time of day year after year. Time would have to Loop 2765 times (!) before a particular frame appeared at the same time of day twice.

2765=0xACD. Nothing leaps to mind there. (There is a user acd on this forum, who has been only lightly active over the years but who posted on a quite elderly thread just a few days ago, but that's probably just one of those bizarre coincidences that happen all the time.)
Spoiler:
553+395=12x79=948. 948 is a plausible suggestion for number of planned frames, something more than half again the thus-far-revealed number. But note that 948 is not relatively prime with 24. If Time loops in the future, either with its original or current update speed, any particular frame would always appear at the same few times of day. An unpleasing result.

As noted above, 553x395=218435. Probably not the total number of frames (well over twenty years of updates at the current frame rate).

218435=0x35543. ESSAE (Empire State Society of Association Executives)? Seems unlikely. 35543 as a decimal number is prime (also a ZIP code in Alabama). Nothing there for me.

I haven't thought of a way to pull geographic coordinates out of any of this. Maybe someone else will.

Any other ideas?

(Edit: It's 115 past blackbirds here; gotta coma. Would have long ago but for the server downtime--couldn't sleep wondering if I'd miss a newpix.)

Which of the 16 hexadecimal digits looks most like a K? 0123456789ABCDEF
Isn't it the A? Isn't xACD a clear reference to the host site of the OTC?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Exodies » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:24 pm UTC

Actaeus wrote:
Exodies wrote:
udscbt wrote:I come from page 293 (I've been absent for about 72 TF) and I've only read this page, so excuse me if I'm missing something while writing this.
About the "if the comic will have an infinite number of frames, it will certainly loop" theory, I have a very simple counterexample. Let's take two different Frames and call them A and B; at one point of Time, Randall could decide to do this: for each n from 1 to ∞, show n consecutive A frames, then n B frames (i.e. ABAABBAAABBBAAAABBBB...). This way the comic will continue indefinitely without ever looping, using only 2 (TWO) Frames. If you want me to demonstrate it isn't a loop, let me know (I haven't done it because I don't want to think about it, anyway it should be obvious that it won't loop).

There is a simpler counter example to my original claim - 2 Frames and the Comic consists of Frame 1 followed by an infinite number of Frame 2. This is not a loop.

However. I have been on a long walk and had a long think and have sent the excavators in to Westminster Abbey to dig up the infinite but no loop infidels. They will be thrown in a ditch and covered in quick lime to encourage the others. And this is why - we have been looking only at the mathematics of permutations but the Comic is driven by a, whatsit, narrative not science and one step demands the next. If the same frame shows up, the same next frame must thereafter appear. With a finite number of possible frames, the Comic will loop.


Well, I think we've been using "it won't loop" to mean "it won't end in an infinite loop".

As for the same frame / same nextframe correspondence: this is disproven by the repeated frames we saw earlier. There was a frame that could be followed by either itself, or by the next distinct frame. So the comic could easily end in a not-quite-loop where the repeated frame sticks around for one newpix longer each time.

In other words, we've seen ....ABCDDEF.... this time, but next time it could be ....ABCDDDEF... and so on.

You could do that, but these insertions are only part of the telling, not part of the story.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby chem1190c » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:32 pm UTC

Just had a thought, what if it loops at a different playback rate:

For instance, loop 0 (the current timeframe) might be newpix 000, 001, 002, 003, 004, 005, 006, 007, 008. Then loop 1 would be 000, 002, 004, 006, 008. And loop 2 could be 000, 004, 008.

That could keep it going for quite a while without technically being a loop.

OR perhaps, the spacing between frames could be randomly generated..
..such that newpix_current = newpix_previous + n | n = a random integer in the range (0,4). That way it could be nearly infinite without having to ever repeat the exact same sequence.

Since the amount of in-comic Time that passes between newpix seems variable, this could actually work quite well.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mexaboy » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:39 pm UTC

cmyk wrote:
mscha wrote:This would go so much faster if Megan would be there and they'd use some kind of pulley system.


Or bring some friends and form a friggin bucket line, with the promise of pizza and beer afterwards.


They could invite black hat guy. He'd probably nuke the site and they'd have to start over.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Shepherdess » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:43 pm UTC

Yay! I wake up calm and refreshed, and find that the One True Comic has been restored, and with it my clarity.

ChronosDragon wrote:Great scott! The comic being down would imply that the Maker of the One True Comic and indeed the Comic itself is fallible! We must erase all mention of this from history, that the comic may be ever revered as perfect and unerring!

Edit: Err..a new page? What do you mean the comic is down? I said nothing of the sort...


No! We should remember this day, and make it a holy day! The day our faiths were tested, but we Waited it out using Time!


To whomever linked to the gluten-free oatmeal cookies, thanks. My waistline could use some more filling out...
Dear Blitzgirl,

I don't know if you got my previous message and I just missed your reply, but I got tired of reading the same message so I decided it was time for a new one.

Your Eternal Servant And Companion Through Time,
Dame Not-Bob
Temporal Defender Of The One True Comic

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Eshru » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:46 pm UTC

cmyk wrote:
Spoiler:
Thought this was cool, in thinking of assigning frames to pi. This guy made an image by color coding Base 10, and rendering the first 40,000 digits of pi as individual pixels. The results:

(0 = white, 1 = cyan, 2 = blue, 3 = magenta, 4 = green, 5 = orange, 6 = red, 7 = yellow, 8 = grey, 9 = black.)
*the decimal is displayed as white, also the mods don't allow the use of proper red.

Image
If you cross your eyes, you can see a 3D sailboat!

It's not a sailboat, it's a schooner!*


*yes this is backwards, but whatever.
Last edited by Eshru on Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.


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