Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

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Eseell
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Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Eseell » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:17 am UTC

NYT: Boy Scouts Move to Lift Ban on Gay Youth Members

“No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone,” the proposed policy states. But the organization “will maintain the current membership policy for all adult leaders.”


This sends a wonderful message to kids, eh? "You're gay? I guess you can stay for now, but as soon as you reach the age of majority you can fuck right off."
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:11 am UTC

More like "if we allow gay kids to join scouts, maybe we can convince them the only proper man to love is Jesus!". Half of the scout troops are really the youth portion of various Christian groups, especially Mormons. Good luck getting them to accept homosexuality as anything other than as something to be 'healed'.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:25 am UTC

Well...the thing about institutions is that they are resistant to change but once change occurs, it's swiftly changes the whole institution.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Puppyclaws » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:51 pm UTC

It's an improvement. I am not going to beat up on a group for making a positive change because it isn't positive enough, at least not in a case like this. With time I imagine that this position will change as well.

CorruptUser wrote:More like "if we allow gay kids to join scouts, maybe we can convince them the only proper man to love is Jesus!". Half of the scout troops are really the youth portion of various Christian groups, especially Mormons. Good luck getting them to accept homosexuality as anything other than as something to be 'healed'.


...really? Not the case with any scout group I was ever familiar with. Of course, our scout troops in my community growing up were full of gay members. Nobody cared.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Brace » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:23 pm UTC

It's fine. They'll come back for them.

*snickers*

Besides which, gays might not be pedophiles, but gay christian republicans sure tend to be
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:34 pm UTC

Brace, if you wanna tell people your story, go ahead. It has precedence, I believe California, and black people oppressing gays. Or you can make more cryptic remarks...

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Brace » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:39 pm UTC

I don't think I was cryptic, but it appears you somehow misread me anyway. That seems to be a very common thing. At any rate, it is hard for me to feel bad about gays being handed incremental progress, quite possibly without hope of future progress being delivered, because this is their own signature tactic. Also because their lives and problems fundamentally don't matter. They're getting a taste of their own medicine at 1/1000th the dose, boo fucking hoo.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby vicnath » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:55 pm UTC

Puppyclaws wrote:It's an improvement. I am not going to beat up on a group for making a positive change because it isn't positive enough, at least not in a case like this. With time I imagine that this position will change as well.

CorruptUser wrote:More like "if we allow gay kids to join scouts, maybe we can convince them the only proper man to love is Jesus!". Half of the scout troops are really the youth portion of various Christian groups, especially Mormons. Good luck getting them to accept homosexuality as anything other than as something to be 'healed'.


...really? Not the case with any scout group I was ever familiar with. Of course, our scout troops in my community growing up were full of gay members. Nobody cared.



^^I agree. I certainly would like the ban removal to be inclusive of the leaders as well, but at least they are making steps.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Eseell » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

Puppyclaws wrote:It's an improvement. I am not going to beat up on a group for making a positive change because it isn't positive enough, at least not in a case like this. With time I imagine that this position will change as well.

CorruptUser wrote:More like "if we allow gay kids to join scouts, maybe we can convince them the only proper man to love is Jesus!". Half of the scout troops are really the youth portion of various Christian groups, especially Mormons. Good luck getting them to accept homosexuality as anything other than as something to be 'healed'.


...really? Not the case with any scout group I was ever familiar with. Of course, our scout troops in my community growing up were full of gay members. Nobody cared.

That type of scout troop is very common here in AZ/UT/ID where Mormonism is popular, but it wasn't my experience growing up in the Midwest. The progressiveness of scout leadership varies widely by region and council.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby addams » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:08 pm UTC

Really?
Remember when being a Boy Scout was about Developing Skills?

I have no idea When 'they' quit doing That.
I liked Boy Scouts. I could not be one for a Laundry List of Reasons.

I sure liked the guys that could.
They were Always and Forever trying shit In The Field.

The Not Getting Lost Thing was both My Favorite and My Least Favorite.

How can people that have lived within One Hundred Miles of This Place get Lost?
oh, Honey; One Hundred Miles is a Long Way on foot.

Boy Scouts had Skills. Make a fire. Find South. Go West! They could, sometimes, Sail a Ship made of leaf and sticks.
Every Boy Scout I ever met was good at Math. Except, one.

Are they ALL the exception, Now?

Spoiler:
I met a woman at work.
Her son wanted a HikingPatch.
He had to walk ten miles. He didn't make it.
His Mom went along. We left them along The Trail.

He was a victim of Love.
He was so chubby.
His Mom worked.
He went to school or played video games.

He got the Patch, most likely.

Megan and I did not care one way or the other.
We were going for a walk, as usual.


Are they ALL the exception, Now?

Spoiler:
eeewww. yuck.
Think about it. yuck. ewww.
What is Boy scouts like, Now?

Well; They still start out Young. Right?
Then, They are an equal Employment Organization?

See? I don't understand your World.
Boy Scouts?!?

In my imagination Boy Scouts is ANY person that can meet the Standards.
In your Reality Boy Scouts is a bunch of soft, uptight, self righteous, Assholes.

I must bow to your superior Knowledge of The Subject.
That Kid did not, could not meet The Standards.

Sometimes it is a good thing to bend The Rules, a little.
He and his Mom stayed Up on The Mountain all day.

He was Out Doors All Day. That may have been his first time Out Side.
He should get a patch for That.

When people that have The Same Patch meet.
They can talk about getting The Patch.
Those Patches are conversation starters.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Brace » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:20 pm UTC

When I was in the scouts, our scout leader took us out to a hill and said "there are wild raspberries here. They're very rare and delicious. First person to get them, keeps them." Then there was a scramble. Kicking, hitting, throwing, shoving. More raspberries were crushed in the struggling than anyone managed to get a hold of. I mostly stood back, but someone came back to where I was and threw me down anyway. If this isn't a perfect metaphor for America, I don't know what is.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:24 pm UTC

Brace wrote:When I was in the scouts, our scout leader took us out to a hill and said "there are wild raspberries here. They're very rare and delicious. First person to get them, keeps them." Then there was a scramble. Kicking, hitting, throwing, shoving. More raspberries were crushed in the struggling than anyone managed to get a hold of. I mostly stood back, but someone came back to where I was and threw me down anyway. If this isn't a perfect metaphor for America, I don't know what is.


That's more a metaphor for most of Africa or the shittier parts of Asia. The US would be, a few people hire lots of people to gather the berries, let the gatherers keep maybe 3 berries, refuse to pay for bandages when the gatherers prick themselves on the thorns, then complain when the system requires they give up 1/3 of their berries to both plant more berry bushes and prevent the gatherers from starving, but the system is oddly shaped such that sometimes gathering an extra berry means you get 2 less berries in support.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:50 pm UTC

The scout leader is the 1%, the troupe (I have no idea on scouts terminology in the UK let alone the US) are the workers. Seems a lot more like the US now.
my pronouns are they

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:18 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:The scout leader is the 1%, the troupe (I have no idea on scouts terminology in the UK let alone the US) are the workers. Seems a lot more like the US now.

No, the scout leader is the guy who pays hobos to fight each other for his amusement.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby addams » Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:33 am UTC

Boy Scouts were a nice idea.
A Club, of Sorts.

Spoiler:
Girl Scouts were a disaster. yuck.
It is a White European thing of some kind.

Boys and Men had a set of Goals to reach.
Girls were a disorganized mess.

Way back. Back before The Internet.
Way back. Before you were born.

It was not always the way it is now.

Not all of the young men exposed to the out of doors
Learned to Love it. Some did.

There were projects involving other large Groups.
The people of The US can not have a thing like that, now.

The People of the US are both in Danger and Dangerous.

Besides!! Woman are, sometimes, Pack Leaders in Boy Scouts.
If it looks like a human and can get everyone and their gear moving;
That is a Pack Leader! Woman, Man or a strange thing I saw on a screen.

If it can do the Job; Pay it, Thank it and Get Out of Its Way.

Really?
Spoiler:
Boy Scout Leaders are encouraging discord? Why?
That is not the way they worked in the past.


So, funny.
Spoiler:
I wasn't a boy scout. I hung out with some, sometimes.
A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly,
courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty,
brave, clean, and reverent.


They were so funny, sometimes.
I was Not a Boy Scout.
They were. So, sweet.

They had to try a few little things as they earned a Patch or two.
Didn't you have any fun with the Boy Scouts?

I learned the trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, polite, kind, responsive, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
While sitting or standing by a camp fire.
We also learned or tried to learn:
The Seven Dwarfs.
The Names of Santa's Reindeer.
The Ten Commandments.
(A party game. List of commandments and How you broke them.)
It is an impressive thing to hear a Seventeen year old man quickly and plainly explain how to break everyone, everyday.
Hey! There was No Internet! Can you imagine how boring it was?

Pot, either made it less boring or more boring.
LSD made it weirder.

I know a campfire story.
It is not my story. I was not there.
It is a Larry Story. Larry was fun.

Larry was a Local. Larry was Not a Boy Scout.
Larry and a bunch of men went up into the hills with a few trucks and some food, beer, Pot and Beer and LSD who knows what those men had? No one did inventory. Not Boy Scouts!
They took wood. Larry helped split and load the wood.

They were standing around the Campfire.
Larry said The LSD was strong. He was doing fine.

Larry had to pee. (That is where I start laughing.)
Poor Larry.

He went off to pee. A man tripping around on LSD is likely to become distracted. He did.
After a while he wanted to go back to The Fire where the other men were.
Poor Larry.

He was lost. He said he was a little frightened. He Knows how big The Woods are.
Poor Larry.

He saw the light from The Fire and went back. He stood there for quite some time.
He was listening to the men talk and looking at The Fire.

"The wood in The Fire was mill ends. The wood we have is Split Rounds."
"Fuck! This is not My Fire! These men are Not My Friends!"

He said he did not say a word. He looked around and recognized a few of the men.
Most were Strangers. (Are you laughing? Should be.)

It is dark and he is lost and he is with a group of dangerous men and he is stoned on LSD.
He turned around and walked to the dirt road and was Lucky. He found his Fire. Thank God.

It left a mark on Larry's soul. It is like a dent on an old car. Kind of charming.
Larry is not a Boy Scout. A Boy Scout could not have done it better.


Can Gay men teach skills?
Can Gay men evaluate skills?
Will Gay Pack Leaders change Scouting?

oh, It can only get weirder.
Was an In The Closet Pack Leader responsible for that thing at Mt. Rushmore?

No one else that plays on the internet can Remember The Boy Scouts the way I do? oh.

Spoiler:
Well; I remember them as a deep bunch of guys.
They don't remember me. I was nobody.

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight
.

What kinds of things do you say?
Well? What have you memorized?

It makes me so sad, sometimes.
The young people seem so shallow.

It is not shallow. They don't know anything about Poetry and They Don't Want To Know!
Do Not Tell People Things They Don't Want To Know. It's not nice.

Back to Fun with Boy Scouts.
I am willing to say, "The first time I smoked Pot was with Boy Scouts."

How did The Boy Scouts get Pot? I have no Idea!
They were not in uniform. We were hanging out.

Hours and Hours talking about:
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

They Had To memorize it.
They changed some of it.
Morally Straight became Morally High.

Talked about the 'my country' part.
That subject came up Over and Over.

Love our Country? Well. Yes. Sure. A Ton.
It's a Big One. Are we Lost? Who has The Car Keys?

Keys? Why do you need keys? The Car Stays Parked.
They are in The Trunk where they belong. In The Key hole. Right?
Where did The Stupid Keys belong?

I didn't bring anything to those campfires. Nothing.
Just myself. While I was there I, mostly, just listened.

It seemed like a Good Idea At The Time.
They talked about some interesting stuff.

They were in School. It was not a meeting to complain about what they Had To know.
They, just, changed some of the words and memorized it both ways.

I think they memorized it Their Own way as said it Their Own way.
The were Morally High. Sometimes they were, just a little bit, funny.

I can not remember One Time that the existence of Jesus ever came up.
oh. yes. What if- came up.

It is an ancient Human game. It is a kind of Story Telling.
Only; Everybody gets to play.

What if an Atomic Bomb hit Portland?

It would get real quiet. We were so stupid.
What were we doing? Waiting for signs of an Atomic bomb?

I had been that close to an Atomic Bomb.
It's not that big a deal. It would not hurt us.

But; Portland?! Right. Portland.
Have you ever been there?

People. People in Portland.
Lots of people in Portland.

Are you guys scared? Of what?
No self respecting animal is going to come anywhere near this fire.


How long can you talk about The Threat? The Russians might Bomb us.
Yes. It's true. They also might teach the Piano.

Well; After we are all dead. AHHHHH!
The Russians are Coming! The Russians are Coming!

We had better clean up a bit. The Russians are Coming.
Once I got used to the idea, "The Russians are Coming"
It was like Jesus is coming. Same Thing.

What do Boy Scouts think, today?
What did Boy Scouts think during the Cold War?
What did Boy Scouts think when Scouting began?

"If you follow All the Rules, you miss All the fun."
Who says girls and dogs can't come along?

It never came up about the Pack Leaders having a sex life.
Ummm. Sex. Girls talk about sex a lot more than boys do.

Maybe on the internet that is not true. In the Old Days, sex was like going pee.
I need to pee. Be back in a while.

I don't care who you pee with. Come back when your are done.

Rules! We need Rules. They are like clothes. We choose them and they seem to choose us.
Rules are fun! Learn them and then do as Martin Luther said to do.

Love God and Do As You Will. He said it in German.

In no language does it come out as Be An Asshole.
That Love God thing covers a great deal of Ground.
Without it Protestants are the "Do as You Please" Not "Protestant".

I only met one Pack Leader. I did not like it and it did not like me.
The Scouts themselves were fun. They had skills. They knew stuff.
Good at Math. Algebra. oooooh. Variables. Interesting. Very Space Age.

No such thing as Boy Scouts, today?
Not that kind.
Today it's a club of Chubby Gay Guys? ohh.

They can be fun. Happy guys. Well laid and well fed. Yay!
Frier Tuck! A Club of Frier Tucks?

Get in. Get Food. Get Out.
Good Luck, sir.
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Fire Brns » Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:43 pm UTC

The reason it had the long term issue with gays is that most troops are sponsored by a religious organization, as in a church lets them store their gear and have their meetings in the building as well as use their van/bus/ect. Allowing gays had the potential for the longest time of getting entire troops kicked out but now since churches have started coming around on the subject as well it isn't such a big concern.

I received a survey from national about 2 months ago in an email and took the time to fill it out and express my personal opinions on it.
A few of them being: gay ≠ pedophile, gay scouts aren't attracted to every male, and straight scouts aren't going to be "converted" into gays. You know, the basic obvious crap that people don't realize.

A lot of local councils have been ignoring national policy on a number of things like this as well. Our troop had a openly gay scout for quite a few years.
To the religiousness of the troops themselves, it's really dependent on local conditions. Of course Idaho is going to have a bit of Mormons. Our troop is sponsored by a Methodist church and another troop in the area is sponsored by the Scientologist church. But we have a wide variety of beliefs in our members including a whole quarter of the boys being atheist or agnostic.

The biggest real concern of the BSA is continuing to teach the values of the scout law(moral code) and the patrol method(teamwork, camaraderie, ect) and the only real concern of this that intersects with gay members is when you have someone who shows up and doesn't participate(makes things about themselves, selfish, disruptive) and this is an issue with non-gays as well so as a gay membership concern it is pointless.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:03 pm UTC

I'm not sure we can blame the restrictions on affiliated churches. BSA still doesn't let atheists in and presumably members of non-Abrahamic religions are similarly snubbed. They aren't quite a secular organization, at least nominally.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Tirian » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:45 pm UTC

It's a mixed bag. At least at an institutional level, the Boy Scouts celebrates several major non-Abrahamic faiths. http://users.wowway.com/~pack1127/insig ... awards.jpg shows a list of all of their religious awards, and you can see that there are insignia for followers of Buddhism, Hinduism, Meher Baba, and Zoroastrianism. On the other hand, reverent practitioners of Wicca have faced resistance when trying to become Eagle Scouts, and I wouldn't be surprised if Vodoun were just as unwelcome.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:25 pm UTC

Tirian wrote:On the other hand, reverent practitioners of Wicca have faced resistance when trying to become Eagle Scouts, and I wouldn't be surprised if Vodoun were just as unwelcome.


Except Wicca is as about as legit a religion as the Jedi Church.

Look, I'm all for free religion and tolerance and so forth, but there comes a point where everyone else gets to call bullshit.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Fire Brns » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:34 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I'm not sure we can blame the restrictions on affiliated churches.

It's certainly not entirely that but it was a contributing factor; I do have a modicum of an inside ear on these things. That was something that circulated down here for a few years.

They aren't quite a secular organization
Of course they aren't secular, but they claim to be nondenominational. In practice...eh. They don't force religion on members at the least, that isn't the focus of the program anyway.
Unfortunately that's a stigma that's caused by the top of the chain. Some of the leadership at the national level would be considered the most religious individuals because they are more old fashioned and much more likely to make it to the top. I hate to make the comparison but kind of like how the Vatican is.

Tirian wrote:It's a mixed bag. At least at an institutional level
Policy is going to get interpreted different ways by different people and it's unfortunate that there are the few common misapplications of it. There's a lot of restructuring every so often to fix these issues. I'm going to be a camp counselor this June and I can tell you policies sent down from national ramped up the training in a few areas like sensitivity and preventing discrimination sort of stuff.

CorruptUser wrote:Except Wicca is as about as legit a religion as the Jedi Church.

Look, I'm all for free religion and tolerance and so forth, but there comes a point where everyone else gets to call bullshit.
Except most people call BS on Scientologists and most Christians call BS or Mormonism. And technically all religions should call BS on all religions that aren't it. Regardless of if it is BS you can't discriminate on it, it's a law and it's immoral.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Diadem » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:48 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Except Wicca is as about as legit a religion as the Jedi Church.

Look, I'm all for free religion and tolerance and so forth, but there comes a point where everyone else gets to call bullshit.

Which is? I know several people who honestly believe in Wiccan theology and are very serious about their religion.

What makes Wicca not a real religion? That it was invented by another human? Well, so are all other religions.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:32 am UTC

Diadem wrote:What makes Wicca not a real religion? That it was invented by another human? Well, so are all other religions.


I can't attempt to define it for you, but I know it when I see it.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Brace » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:33 am UTC

So you're not offended by people believing in nonsense, only in nonsense you suspect they've had a significant role in personally inventing?
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:36 am UTC

I'm not offended by people believing in nonsense, only when they try to get special privileges for that nonsense.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Brace » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:39 am UTC

"special privileges" tends to be code for "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about". IE, it's another kind of nonsense. So you might want to clarify.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:40 am UTC

Tax exemptions, mostly, like the CoS. Some minor things like trying to get special permission to do certain drugs or other practices the general populace can't do.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Brace » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:43 am UTC

Well, we should either get rid of taxes altogether or extend them to religious institutions then. Problem solved. Alternatively, we could just define what rights are exercised by the practice of religion and ensure that these rights are never taxed, regardless of whether religion is involved or not. Ostensibly it's free speech rights. It would probably be a fairly complicated task to determine what does and doesn't constitute a tax on free speech, but I'm sure reasonable and principled arguments can be made leading to some sort of course of action.

The drugs issue is even more clear cut. Mescaline/Peyote shouldn't be illegal, I know of no evidence showing that it or most other hallucinogens are dangerous. Same with psilocin/psilocybin. The Netherlands has the issue too, pertaining to Ayahuasca. It's a moot point. Drug policy should be liberalized. We shouldn't restrict religious practices because of bad drug policy.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:00 am UTC

I'm thinking of tax exemptions like the Amish not having to pay social security because insurance is against their religion (because you aren't trusting god to protect you or something like that), or various catholic employers refusing to give contraceptive coverage for their employees, or financing various recruitment activities counts as 'charitable donations'. Not that those aren't religions, but they shouldn't have those exemptions.

I just refuse to recognize the Church of Scientology as anything other than a cult/scam. I don't know how to craft a definition that excludes them; indeed just the word 'crafting' implies 'giant steaming pile of bullshit'.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Darryl » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:36 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I'm thinking of tax exemptions like the Amish not having to pay social security because insurance is against their religion (because you aren't trusting god to protect you or something like that), or various catholic employers refusing to give contraceptive coverage for their employees, or financing various recruitment activities counts as 'charitable donations'. Not that those aren't religions, but they shouldn't have those exemptions.

The difference between the Amish example and the others is that the Amish neither pay into SSDI, nor do they receive anything from it.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:46 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I'm thinking of tax exemptions like the Amish not having to pay social security because insurance is against their religion (because you aren't trusting god to protect you or something like that), or various catholic employers refusing to give contraceptive coverage for their employees, or financing various recruitment activities counts as 'charitable donations'. Not that those aren't religions, but they shouldn't have those exemptions.

I just refuse to recognize the Church of Scientology as anything other than a cult/scam. I don't know how to craft a definition that excludes them; indeed just the word 'crafting' implies 'giant steaming pile of bullshit'.

If Scientology makes it past 100 years, it will be remarkably similar to Mormonism's roots. Which reminds me of the persecution of the Christians by the Jews, which reminds me of the Egyptians...You start to see my problem with going down this lonely line. Nobody minds when you pick on the new kid on the block, Scientology, or the weirdo, Wiccan w/e. But when you start just lashing out at any old religion, you lose agreement really fast.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Derek » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:01 am UTC

sardia wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I'm thinking of tax exemptions like the Amish not having to pay social security because insurance is against their religion (because you aren't trusting god to protect you or something like that), or various catholic employers refusing to give contraceptive coverage for their employees, or financing various recruitment activities counts as 'charitable donations'. Not that those aren't religions, but they shouldn't have those exemptions.

I just refuse to recognize the Church of Scientology as anything other than a cult/scam. I don't know how to craft a definition that excludes them; indeed just the word 'crafting' implies 'giant steaming pile of bullshit'.

If Scientology makes it past 100 years, it will be remarkably similar to Mormonism's roots. Which reminds me of the persecution of the Christians by the Jews, which reminds me of the Egyptians...You start to see my problem with going down this lonely line. Nobody minds when you pick on the new kid on the block, Scientology, or the weirdo, Wiccan w/e. But when you start just lashing out at any old religion, you lose agreement really fast.

Just apply a grandfather clause. Any religions that existed before 1900 are legitimate. Any that were created after are not.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:14 am UTC

Don't be silly, everyone knows the only way a religion is legitimate is if you slay the old gods and use their remains to remake the world in your own image. All hail, Nyarlathotep.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Fire Brns » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:16 am UTC

But how do you prove that the "chosen one" was around before 1900?

If you are going to let religion exist at all you can't try to apply logic to it because self divined (wicca) theology is just as logical as it being handed down in vision (mormon) theology.

To the exemption part: If a law is unimportant enough that you can actually just let people ignore it does it actually need to be a law? The answer for a lot of them is: No, If you can exempt one then you can exempt all.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby sardia » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:19 am UTC

I disagree, it's not that we can't apply logic to it, it's that the logic leads to a very uncomfortable place. Do churches get special tax benefits beyond what nonprofits get?

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby addams » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:41 am UTC

Where did the Real Boy Scouts Go?
oh. Like every one else, they are walking the walk. Or; Not.

Religion? Why is this about Religion?
Can you build a Fire?

Smart will not do it, sometimes.
It takes practice. Then you get a Patch.

That Patch does not mean you can make Fire like a God!
It means that you, at least one time, made a fire.

Oh! Oh! The Wiccan do a double major?
Religious Memes and Chemistry?
That may be impressive enough to trigger conversions.

Everyone wants what Works.
I have heard some sweet, terrible, sad and strange Religion Stories.

Boring. But, True.
Spoiler:
I was taught to be very careful about Blaming The Victim.
I did not understand it, at the time.

Time has revealed The Truth.
If your Religion works, that is nice for you.
Do not Require others to learn your Religion.

Kind of like Science.
Some people will want to know one thing.
Some people will want to know something else.

In Science and in Religion there will be overlap.
Do not Blame The Victim.

If you were a Gay Christian your Lab Values would be Right, like mine are.

That's mean! Lab values and Moral values are only very loosely connected.

oh dear. Now that I typed it, I see it.

Lab Values and Moral Values are connected.
A person that is careful, has Lab Values that I can trust.

Who is careful? People with big imaginations?
Religious People? People that have internalized an ethos?
Who can you Trust?


Boy Scouts? When was the last time you saw a Boy Scout, in the flesh?
They are like the Pythagorean; Wandering off into the forest. (?)

Spoiler:
Word to the Wise:
Don't tangle with Their Moms.
Those Big Butted Women are Mean.

Not All! But; Damn.
If it walks like a Duck.
Stereotypes are an early warning system.

Open minded people don't have that system in place.
That is How I Learned that one! Experience!
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Derek » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:43 am UTC

sardia wrote:Don't be silly, everyone knows the only way a religion is legitimate is if you slay the old gods and use their remains to remake the world in your own image. All hail, Nyarlathotep.

All hail Nyarlathotep.

Image

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:36 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Tirian wrote:On the other hand, reverent practitioners of Wicca have faced resistance when trying to become Eagle Scouts, and I wouldn't be surprised if Vodoun were just as unwelcome.


Except Wicca is as about as legit a religion as the Jedi Church.

Look, I'm all for free religion and tolerance and so forth, but there comes a point where everyone else gets to call bullshit.


Wicca's about as legit as mormonism, I think you meant to say. They're both religions that were provably made up out of nowhere in recent history, the former by Smith a little under 2 centuries ago, the latter by Gardner a little under 1.

The only difference is that Wicca is about a thousand times less shitty and exploitative.

And yet no one says "I can't believe you make allowances for mormons, they're about as legit as the Jedi Church." Because for some reason, even atheists who are supposed to disdain all religions on their merits afford the ones with Judeo-Christian trappings more legitimacy than those that don't. Cut that out, abrahamic nonsense doesn't deserve a special place in your regard.

tl;dr: you're being a bit of a twit.

Edit: And as long as we're talking about religions basically made up out of nowhere in the last couple centuries, might as well throw Bahá'í on the pile...and they're pretty cool dudes as abrahamic faiths go.
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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby fifiste » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:09 am UTC

I's such a believer in religious freedom. That everyone should be allowed to call any religion bullshit* or even lack thereof.
I firmly believe that no religious institution should have any more or less "privileges" than any other non-profit. That's in case they are non-profit of course, I they are not then they should receive no more or no less than any for-profit organization. That is all.




*I personally find yes yes they are - some more obviously (The new kids on the block mainly), some more refined and with longer roots and history - therefore getting more support and commitment by people, and thus commanding more respect and/or fear to be called out such etc. but BS nonetheless.
The difference being mainly numbers/power - like with most anything else in this world.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby bouer » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:41 pm UTC

fifiste wrote:The difference being mainly numbers/power - like with most anything else in this world.


I'm not sure about that, Judaism is very small but commands a great deal of respect.

More on topic, do countries other than the USA have boy scout equivalents? what do they think of homosexuality? I think Canada has something similiar but it's secular so there's no problem.

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Re: Boy Scouts May Lift Ban on Gay Boys but not Gay Leaders

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:08 pm UTC

So Belial, when do you think it's acceptable to call bullshit on a religion?


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