Neverwinter (MMO)

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Ixtellor » Tue May 14, 2013 2:07 pm UTC

So I paid to be a founder a long time ago... no interest in BETA at all.


Is the game worth it or should I just skip it? (Don't care about the money)
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 2:12 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:If you don't feel bad for the players abused by this model, feel bad for the great combat designers who crafted the good parts of this experience and then have to watch as PWE runs the game into the ground.
Wat? Who held a gun to your head and forced you to play, or pay for that matter?

Ixtellor wrote:Is the game worth it or should I just skip it? (Don't care about the money)
I'm enjoying it. It's doing some things right, but being in beta, feels pretty shallow right now. I've put in probably 5-6 hours, and seen a lot of the same orcs and human model bad guys. But I'm digging it. It feels a bit like Bloodlines champions insofar as skill streamlining.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue May 14, 2013 2:21 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:I like the idea that the company is somehow responsible for players having bad habits, and that an MMO company can actually abuse people via it's game simply by having a pay2win model.


For instance, the celestial coin system basically forces you to pray every day. You know who else does this kind of stuff? Zynga.The game is full of shit like this. This relies on human compulsions and is predatory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_co ... ng_chamber

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 2:46 pm UTC

Or... just don't? Again, no one is forcing you to play the game, and no one is forcing you to do every thing in the game. Crafting, for example, is just managing 10m to 18hr cooldowns. That's so much clicking! What a fucking rat race!

Or just... don't craft.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:09 pm UTC

But why make it such a pain to play 50% of your game? To get any of the epic prayer items requires logging on once a day for 100+ days and never missing once (you'll lose all progress if you do), that is ridiculous.

I wanted a MMO that delivered...and as much as I was looking forward to a NWN relaunch..this falls short.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 3:43 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:But why make it such a pain to play 50% of your game? To get any of the epic prayer items requires logging on once a day for 100+ days and never missing once (you'll lose all progress if you do), that is ridiculous.
This is something that always stuns me about MMO players. They WANT a grind. They WANT something they can dedicate months and months of daily bullshit ratrace activities towards, but then, they ALSO want to complain about it vehemently the whole time.

"You mean I have to log in every day to accumulate enough tokens to buy this flashy mount?! Fuck that noise!" will be exclaimed simultaneously with "There's no end game, I have nothing to grind towards anymore." GW2 has this problem in spades; they game streamlined a lot of the rat race, and people bitched there was no end game. The game has insanely hard to grind for legendary items, and people bitch that it's too much of a rat race.

MMO players are truthfully the most impossible to appease gamers. No one is claiming Neverwinter is perfect, but jesus, the things you all are griping about amount to "This thing I don't have to do isn't fun, and I'm mad it's not fun"
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue May 14, 2013 4:10 pm UTC

I dont want a grind, I want an MMO RPG where I can play a character and get decent (read not epic) gear without spending 10+ hours a day. Its also not just the grind, if it was WOW like and just took 1million hours, fine..but to take the progress away because I cant log in every single day is way below the belt.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

Oh, check out GW2 then. It's not a very gear intensive game, and the story is a good deal more important than most games 'storylines'.

NW does some cool things that I appreciate, but RPG wise, it's no different/better than any of the other WoW clones.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue May 14, 2013 4:29 pm UTC

Yea, I want to, but $ is short right now. But I haven't checked, has it gone down in price? To the googles! (Edit: $40 + tax) still too high for me atm.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 14, 2013 5:58 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:I like the idea that the company is somehow responsible for players having bad habits, and that an MMO company can actually abuse people via it's game simply by having a pay2win model.

Much of what game design has become today is intentionally manipulative. They are actively crafted to create behaviors in players that lead toward the company gaining more money without the player understanding that manipulation. Daily play is one such habit, incentivizing it, punishing lack of daily play (especially in relation to abusing loss aversion) and even then only giving fairly minor rewards for just logging in you have to spend hours to really gain much but you have to log in not to lose things. They try to make you think about the game all of the time, and they succeed for most of their audience, this is how they make money. Celestial coins are a well crafted example of this game designers abusing human behavior for profit.

I find it unfortunate that you think it is some fantasy I have that people sit around all day thinking about how to get you to play the game more and pay more while playing. Or just maybe you believe that people can't be so easily manipulated to form habits?

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:01 pm UTC

See Riot and League of Legends for how this should be done. Yes you can pay to win(gain an advantage sooner, which may not be much depending on the player), but you can also win without paying a dime in almost no time at all if you are at all skilled at the game.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 6:04 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Celestial coins are a well crafted example of this game designers abusing human behavior for profit.
I'm really not sure how else to say this; if you don't like the idea, don't participate in Celestial Coins. You can still play the game, as is, completely as is (!!!) without doing your dailies.

I'll try that again; you can, honestly, enjoy the game, play the game, interact with the game, participate in the game, be part of the game, etc., without, by not doing, sans undertaking, not being obligated to, bound by, or forced to, do the dailies.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 14, 2013 6:10 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:See Riot and League of Legends for how this should be done. Yes you can pay to win(gain an advantage sooner, which may not be much depending on the player), but you can also win without paying a dime in almost no time at all if you are at all skilled at the game.

Ick no don't, riot is one of the worst offenders, they do everything PWE does and sometimes are often better at just compelling people to play. Go look at dota 2.

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Celestial coins are a well crafted example of this game designers abusing human behavior for profit.
I'm really not sure how else to say this; if you don't like the idea, don't participate in Celestial Coins. You can still play the game, as is, completely as is (!!!) without doing your dailies.

I'll try that again; you can, honestly, enjoy the game, play the game, interact with the game, participate in the game, be part of the game, etc., without, by not doing, sans undertaking, not being obligated to, bound by, or forced to, do the dailies.

I don't...thats not the point here. The point is that games will continue to use models that abuse their players until we educate the players. But it seems you much like many apologizers of 'free' games don't want to learn.

One might be capable of doing all of the things you describe, enjoy, play, interact, participate, be part of (really...how redundant do you have to be to make it sound like you actually have an argument) without being obligated, bound, or manipulated. However, people in general are not. This is how they make money.

Izawwlgood wrote:Or... just don't? Again, no one is forcing you to play the game, and no one is forcing you to do every thing in the game. Crafting, for example, is just managing 10m to 18hr cooldowns. That's so much clicking! What a fucking rat race!

Or just... don't craft.

So wonderfully naive...They don't build in a skinner box, loss aversion, perceived value manipulators, social influence and numerous other tricks because they don't work. They work, and they work well. It is nice to believe that most people actively have control and are self-aware of everything they do, in fact I'd love to have more people working toward trying to make that fantasy a reality, but it isn't now. Designers do this because it makes them money, and not a small amount way more than previous business models make, it compels people to play and spend money, often against their own well-being.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 6:19 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:One might be capable of doing all of the things you describe, enjoy, play, interact, participate, be part of (really...how redundant do you have to be to make it sound like you actually have an argument) without being obligated, bound, or manipulated. However, people in general are not. This is how they make money.
Oh good, you caught my sarcasm that indicated how ridiculous I think your position is!
So lets back this up; you think the company is shitty and manipulative because they include rewards for people who grind, because if you don't grind, you don't get rewards? And this is bad, not because you don't like grinds, but because other people will be manipulated into grinding?
Zcorp wrote:So wonderfully naive...They don't build in a skinner box, loss aversion, perceived value manipulators, social influence and numerous other trickses because they don't work. They work, and they work well. It is nice to believe that most people actively have control and are self-aware of everything they do, in fact I'd love to have more people working toward trying to make that fantasy a reality, but it isn't now. Designers do this because it makes them money, and not a small amount way more than previous business models make, it compels people to play and spend money, often against their own well-being.
I'll just echo what someone else already pointed out to you;
Enokh wrote:I like the idea that the company is somehow responsible for players having bad habits, and that an MMO company can actually abuse people via it's game simply by having a pay2win model.

So, *again*, if you don't like Skinner Box crap, don't do it. Cryptic isn't the first game to design a game that rewards mindless clicking with shinies, but like all the other games, there's more than just mindless clicking. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here by assuming the presence of grind mechanics at all means the whole game is this vile manipulative cesspool of player hating evil.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue May 14, 2013 6:26 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:But it seems you much like many apologizers of 'free' games don't want to learn.


He can't hear us. Stop bothering.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 6:34 pm UTC

Considering how bent out of shape it's making you guys, I'm glad it exists as a filter for removing people who gripe about this sort of thing instead of recognizing it as a facet of the game not for them, and moving on.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue May 14, 2013 6:36 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Ick no don't, riot is one of the worst offenders, they do everything PWE does and sometimes are often better at just compelling people to play. Go look at dota 2.


How so? Ive not spend a dime on LOL and I have never felt compelled to nor do I feel not spending money has made it harder to win or enjoy the game. On the other hand I feel that in NWN not spending money will never get me to a point of decent progression to feel ive gotten anything from the game.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 14, 2013 7:00 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Considering how bent out of shape it's making you guys, I'm glad it exists as a filter for removing people who gripe about this sort of thing instead of recognizing it as a facet of the game not for them, and moving on.

No one is bent out of shape, that you have to resort to ad hominem's is unfortunate.

I work in game design and education. It isn't about my emotional state, it is about the reality of the impact and longevity of these games. I greatly respect the combat design of the game, as I said in my first post. The reality is that business models like this don't last, and to attached quality design to a cash grap and manipulative business model is something I view as quite sad. Especially when games like GW2, which had so much promise, all but completely failed at their combat and system design while have a generally non-abusive or short term business model. This is my field of study an I feel sorry for the quality individuals who built the combat to have it ruined by PWE or Cryptic execs, they did a great job. If I was arena net I'd hire them right now to replace my design team.

My concern is bigger than what you seem to think is valuable, I care about teaching people to be self-aware to understand reason. I believe games can assist with that, that games - and really any art - should add to the skill and life of the player. Games that actively manipulate the player to make more money at the cost of their well-being are in direct conflict with my goals in education and game design.


So, *again*, if you don't like Skinner Box crap, don't do it. Cryptic isn't the first game to design a game that rewards mindless clicking with shinies, but like all the other games, there's more than just mindless clicking. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here by assuming the presence of grind mechanics at all means the whole game is this vile manipulative cesspool of player hating evil.
See, you haven't even taken the time to listen to what is being said. You are just apologizing. No one here has said anything specifically against grind. No one has said cryptic/pwe is doing anything unique, well besides possibly the combat design (which has been shown general respect for its quality). We are just apparently more informed on the matter and the history of these games business models and how it affects the longevity, player experience and choices in game design.

The first thing I said in this thread was "it's combat design and general ability design is the best of any mmo i've played. They did all of it really well." If you stopped being so defensive you might understand what is being said and step up to our level of discourse.

If you honestly and truly don't care that game companies are making money by manipulating players, using quality game designers to make a game that ends up being a quick cash grab (when it could easily be so much more) and thus essentially flushing down their hard work or that these types of games often and sometimes severely harm the well-being of their players because they are explicitly designed to do so...well then we just don't share the same goals and values in business ethics or about what society we want to be building.

Edit:
Drumheller769 wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Ick no don't, riot is one of the worst offenders, they do everything PWE does and sometimes are often better at just compelling people to play. Go look at dota 2.

How so? Ive not spend a dime on LOL and I have never felt compelled to nor do I feel not spending money has made it harder to win or enjoy the game. On the other hand I feel that in NWN not spending money will never get me to a point of decent progression to feel ive gotten anything from the game.

Well first off one is a game almost entirely about the grind, the other the layered it in to make money.

LoL charges for content (you pay for every hero or have to spend ~a month to unlock one), it takes literally years to unlock all of the content, you can purchase power (although can 'earn' it, great trick there calling it earning), they try to habituate players into daily play and they have extremely high price points to increase the perceived value to the player. It is amazing to me that they successfully sold it as casual dota when one of the big early steps to playing the game is learning the content they lock behind a paywall.

And they are massively massively profitable, so while you may not feel pressured to spend others certainly do. New viable hero comes out: either you've been massing your IP to buy him for the last month or you need to probably need to purchase to stay competitive. Heroes you have purchased will wane in power and viability and small changes result in a hero going from a top pick to non-viable. Entirely changing the value of what the player has purchased.
Last edited by Zcorp on Tue May 14, 2013 7:29 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 7:20 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:No one is bent out of shape, that you have to resort to ad hominem's is unfortunate.
Man, the more you post...
Zcorp wrote:Especially when games like GW2, which had so much promise, all but completely failed at their combat and system design while have a generally non-abusive or short term business model.
... the more I just have to TOTALLY agree...
Zcorp wrote:My concern is bigger than what you seem to think is valuable, I care about teaching people to be self-aware to understand reason.
that OH MAN YOU TOTALLY GET IT.

Okay, anyway...
To the first; you should look up 'ad hominem' before you use it again
To the second; How do you feel GW2 completely failed at combat and system design?
To the third; I thank you, from the bottom of my heart for teaching me to be self-aware and understand reason.

Zcorp wrote:You are just apologizing.
Not at all; I'm calling you and MSs arguments rather idiotic.
Zcorp wrote:We are just apparently more informed on the matter and the history of these games business models and how it affects the longevity, player experience and choices in game design.
And yet your examples don't actually support your new point that it's not a criticism of the game itself, but of the business model?
Zcorp wrote:...well then we just don't share the same goals and values about what society we want to be building.
Yeah, I am oppressive force that shears society from it's mooring.

Jesus Christ, would you listen to yourself a second? I don't care that games include the stuff you seem to be so bent out of shape over, because I don't participate in it, and you don't have to either. If you think that the inclusion of these facets of the game will ruin it, by all means, point to other games that include grindy daily aspects that ruined them, because last I checked, GW2 with it's daily and monthlys was still going pretty strong, people are still playing WoW, etc...
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 14, 2013 7:32 pm UTC

I don't care that games include the stuff you seem to be so bent out of shape over, because I don't participate in it, and you don't have to either.
Exactly, You don't care about the effect a cash grab has on good design, and I do. You don't care how the company treats their players (or players besides yourself), and I do. You don't care about the cultural impact treating players poorly has, and I do.

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zcorp wrote:We are just apparently more informed on the matter and the history of these games business models and how it affects the longevity, player experience and choices in game design.
And yet your examples don't actually support your new point that it's not a criticism of the game itself, but of the business model?
My new point? See you really haven't been reading, sigh, well have fun supporting PWE.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 8:38 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:Exactly, You don't care about the effect a cash grab has on good design, and I do. You don't care how the company treats their players (or players besides yourself), and I do. You don't care about the cultural impact treating players poorly has, and I do.
You are truly fighting the good fight. I'll ask again; what games have these Skinner Box facets that are ignorable at large that have failed? WoW? GW2? LoL?

Zcorp wrote:My new point? See you really haven't been reading, sigh, well have fun supporting PWE.
By playing their free game? Wilco.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 14, 2013 9:45 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zcorp wrote:Exactly, You don't care about the effect a cash grab has on good design, and I do. You don't care how the company treats their players (or players besides yourself), and I do. You don't care about the cultural impact treating players poorly has, and I do.
You are truly fighting the good fight.
...
I'm probably a 'try hard' as well right, a terrible terrible thing to be.

I'll ask again; what games have these Skinner Box facets that are ignorable at large that have failed? WoW? GW2? LoL?

No one equated skinner box facets to failure, but you don't read anything i say, so good stuff.
You are welcome to do some of your own research as you aren't willing to learn from me, start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Wo ... ertainment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptic_Studios

Zcorp wrote:My new point? See you really haven't been reading, sigh, well have fun supporting PWE.
By playing their free game?[/quote]
=) so unwilling to read or learn you don't even understand what i'm saying. Go do some research to understand how reach leads into retention and revenue or your role in that as the player.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 14, 2013 10:55 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:You are welcome to do some of your own research as you aren't willing to learn from me, start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Wo ... ertainment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptic_Studios
Homie, linking the studios and saying 'See for yourself', when I specifically asked you about those games doesn't prove your point. Is there something in particular you want to draw my attention to with those links?

Zcorp wrote:=) so unwilling to read or learn you don't even understand what i'm saying. Go do some research to understand how reach leads into retention and revenue or your role in that as the player.
So ignorant and aloof. See if you can connect the dots you sheeple.

DO YOU SEE HOW THESE VAGUE CONDESCENDING REMARKS DON'T DEMONSTRATE ANYTHING?
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 14, 2013 10:56 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Zcorp wrote:You are welcome to do some of your own research as you aren't willing to learn from me, start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_Wo ... ertainment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptic_Studios
Homie, linking the studios and saying 'See for yourself', when I specifically asked you about those games doesn't prove your point. Is there something in particular you want to draw my attention to with those links?

Zcorp wrote:=) so unwilling to read or learn you don't even understand what i'm saying. Go do some research to understand how reach leads into retention and revenue or your role in that as the player.
So ignorant and aloof. See if you can connect the dots you sheeple.

DO YOU SEE HOW THESE VAGUE CONDESCENDING REMARKS DON'T DEMONSTRATE ANYTHING?

See how your behavior only leads to vague condescending remarks? Act like a child and get treated like one. The specifics you ignored, you threw our red herrings and ad hominem's refusing to read anything I wrote and now you want different specifics. Grow up.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed May 15, 2013 1:41 am UTC

I agree with Zcorp, hes made many specific points and all you have really said is dont be a whiner.

Z - Ill get back to you about LOL tomorrow, too late tonight, but I disagree with some of your points there.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Amnesiasoft » Wed May 15, 2013 3:08 am UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:once a day for 100+ days and never missing once (you'll lose all progress if you do), that is ridiculous.

No, you don't. Celestial coins expire if you miss it, yes, but you can only have 7 celestial coins at once. Ardent coins do not expire.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 15, 2013 3:27 am UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:I agree with Zcorp, hes made many specific points and all you have really said is dont be a whiner.
No, I've said that the things you are whining about are not requisite parts of the game.

But anyway, moving on; anyone have top level characters? How does tanking/healing stack up at end game?
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed May 15, 2013 8:00 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Drumheller769 wrote:I agree with Zcorp, hes made many specific points and all you have really said is dont be a whiner.
No, I've said that the things you are whining about are not requisite parts of the game.

But anyway, moving on; anyone have top level characters? How does tanking/healing stack up at end game?


I am going to use simple terms for you to understand.

Guy with a shield is useless. The nasty nasty monsters don't want to hit him anyway, and his shield breaks very fast! He can not jump out of big nasty attacks, so fast thief guy is better at keeping big bad guy busy!

Guy that prays a lot is very useful! He makes a very powerful blue shield thing. So useful you should get another one, to use two blue shield things at the same place! Then the nasty nasty bad guys can't hurt you very much anymore!

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed May 15, 2013 11:59 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:
Drumheller769 wrote:once a day for 100+ days and never missing once (you'll lose all progress if you do), that is ridiculous.

No, you don't. Celestial coins expire if you miss it, yes, but you can only have 7 celestial coins at once. Ardent coins do not expire.


Ahh, well then, that's not so bad. Guess I misread that line the one time it popped up telling me it was about to expire.


ZCorp, I dont feel that old champs are not competitive and so thats no big deal, and it only takes a week to get enough IP for a new 6300 champ.


Now, back to NWN: I think not having your ardent coins disappear was one of my main complaints, so seeing as how they dont, I can deal with the rest of the grindy stuff. Question about gameplay...do boss fights ever change from start boss fight > boss spawns adds > kill adds > more adds spawn > try to kill boss > repeat?
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Enokh » Wed May 15, 2013 2:04 pm UTC

Yeah, zcorp (and to a lesser extent, Dreumheller and MS), I get that you're super passionate about this stuff. And you're right about the whole skinner box, manipulation, loss aversion so on and so forth. And I even agree with you that they are using those tactics. I also share your interest in them, though since I haven't actually studied it beyond reading a cracked article about it once and then sitting on wikipedia for god knows how long reading things about it, I'm sure I'm not quite as knowledgeable as you.

But the vibe I'm rather strongly getting from you is that, because they're doing these things, this makes them evil or sociopaths or whatever (this assumption comes from your comment about business ethics and society-building). And if this was a company who, I don't know, ran the water supply for a city or was involved in some other critical market, I'd be on board with this. But they aren't. They have an online game based off of Dungeons and Dragons. And that isn't important.

Now, I'm all for talking about how their business model is less liked by you, or anyone, as compared to another company's business model. Or how their business model is fine, but they're doing it wrong, and check out how these games over here do it. But treating the business model about slaying internet orcs like it's some sort of moral depravity is. . .pretty out there, to but it lightly. I mean, just. . .what? Someone charging more money for cooler abilities/whatever in their normally free game is undermining the society you want to see built?

Again: If you don't like the game, that's cool. Lots of people don't like lots of things. I even like reading threads where people who don't like the game argue about why it's bad, because it lets me know more about the game. But building it into this moral issue is ludicrous.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed May 15, 2013 2:14 pm UTC

You have no right to spend your time being mad at us on the internet - african children are starving right now.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed May 15, 2013 2:19 pm UTC

Note im only complaining about the game not the company's ethics. :D
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 15, 2013 2:25 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:I am going to use simple terms for you to understand.
MS, are you aware that me asking about end game tanking/healing is the first time in the thread that's been asked, so being condescending about it does not actually make a point about our disagreement re: the companies business ethics/policies, but just underlines that you're being unreasonable at large? My point of bringing it up was, in fact, two fold; firstly, I'm curious, as I prefer those roles in games, and secondly (and perhaps more importantly), I was changing the subject away from arguing about the companies policies/the grind you hate so much. If you want to keep discussing that, by all means, bring it up again.

Menacing Spike wrote:Guy with a shield is useless. The nasty nasty monsters don't want to hit him anyway, and his shield breaks very fast! He can not jump out of big nasty attacks, so fast thief guy is better at keeping big bad guy busy!
Sounds like a threat generation issue; I thought the tank had a lot of threat generating abilities? And you mean stamina generation is too slow? I thought a bunch of abilities generated stamina?

Menacing Spike wrote:Guy that prays a lot is very useful! He makes a very powerful blue shield thing. So useful you should get another one, to use two blue shield things at the same place! Then the nasty nasty bad guys can't hurt you very much anymore!
I assume this means there's a later game shield ability that the Cleric gets? What level? It stacks with other Clerics? That seems cool, if OP as you describe it.

So, it sounds like you're saying that Tanking end game is borked. It also sounds like you're saying Clerics have some OP abilities. How necessary is Cleric healing end game? Someone mentioned that up to ~15th, popping pots represents greater heals than what Clerics can muster; I assume/hope that changes?

Enokh wrote:Someone charging more money for cooler abilities/whatever in their normally free game is undermining the society you want to see built?
I'm still waiting to hear how GW2, WoW, LoL, and the like that have Skinner Box style psychological horrors have failed or undermined society. Or how other games that were p2p (not p2win, mind you! Which Neverwinter isn't, but still) have corrupted the youth or exploded horribly. Last I checked a number of them are still around and doing quite well.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Enokh » Wed May 15, 2013 2:37 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:You have no right to spend your time being mad at us on the internet - african children are starving right now.


Yeah, I'm not mad, I'm just super confused as to the leap between "this game sucks" and "this game is a form of moral corruption I must fight against".

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed May 15, 2013 3:03 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Sounds like a threat generation issue; I thought the tank had a lot of threat generating abilities? And you mean stamina generation is too slow? I thought a bunch of abilities generated stamina?

The threat generating abitilies don't really do jack compared to the aggro cleric takes. It's simply not possible to keep threat on more than two targets consistently. While abilities such as Iron Warrior and Enforced Threat do regen the guard meter, a boss can break it in maybe two hits - you are much better off dodging. GF has no dodge move and slow windups - a thief is much better there.

I assume this means there's a later game shield ability that the Cleric gets? What level? It stacks with other Clerics? That seems cool, if OP as you describe it.

Astral shield. Every fucking cleric runs it. Level 50 I think.

How necessary is Cleric healing end game? Someone mentioned that up to ~15th, popping pots represents greater heals than what Clerics can muster; I assume/hope that changes?

Pots are still important as fuck - but clerics can help you while the potion is cooling down, or keep you topped off with forgemasters or such while you don't take much damage, and of course are there to cast Astral Shield.

From my experiences, the ultimate team would be something like cleric/cleric/cw/cw/cw.

Class desirability: Cleric >> CW > TR > GF >> GWF

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 15, 2013 4:19 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:The threat generating abitilies don't really do jack compared to the aggro cleric takes. It's simply not possible to keep threat on more than two targets consistently. While abilities such as Iron Warrior and Enforced Threat do regen the guard meter, a boss can break it in maybe two hits - you are much better off dodging. GF has no dodge move and slow windups - a thief is much better there.
A quick forum perusal shows that the threat management issue is a known issue that is being worked on. It seems not only do tanks not generate enough threat, but healers generate way too much.

Menacing Spike wrote:Astral shield. Every fucking cleric runs it. Level 50 I think.
There's also a handful of threads on the forums about this ability; it seems that it is being recognized as way to potent.

Menacing Spike wrote:Class desirability: Cleric >> CW > TR > GF >> GWF
Yeah that's my sense too from the forums. Hopefully they'll balance shit!

The wiki indicates that there are something like 5 planned classes for each of the four roles; it'll be interesting to see how they pan out, if they get that far.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun May 19, 2013 6:38 pm UTC

so it seems you could put negative auction prices on the gateway

and billions of AD were generated

saw a few screenshots and AH is down

truly, astounding competence

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun May 19, 2013 6:51 pm UTC

Yeah, it's a bug, and it's being addressed.

I find the threat issue to be a much bigger deal than an AH glitch which can be rolled back or tracked.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby wumpus » Tue May 21, 2013 12:19 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Drumheller769 wrote:But why make it such a pain to play 50% of your game? To get any of the epic prayer items requires logging on once a day for 100+ days and never missing once (you'll lose all progress if you do), that is ridiculous.
This is something that always stuns me about MMO players. They WANT a grind. They WANT something they can dedicate months and months of daily bullshit ratrace activities towards, but then, they ALSO want to complain about it vehemently the whole time.


I hate to break it to you, but this is a primitive form of communication called "trolling". The user doesn't really want to "just login" to get epic stuff.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby wumpus » Tue May 21, 2013 12:31 am UTC

Enokh wrote:Yeah, zcorp (and to a lesser extent, Dreumheller and MS), I get that you're super passionate about this stuff. And you're right about the whole skinner box, manipulation, loss aversion so on and so forth. And I even agree with you that they are using those tactics. I also share your interest in them, though since I haven't actually studied it beyond reading a cracked article about it once and then sitting on wikipedia for god knows how long reading things about it, I'm sure I'm not quite as knowledgeable as you.

But the vibe I'm rather strongly getting from you is that, because they're doing these things, this makes them evil or sociopaths or whatever (this assumption comes from your comment about business ethics and society-building). And if this was a company who, I don't know, ran the water supply for a city or was involved in some other critical market, I'd be on board with this. But they aren't. They have an online game based off of Dungeons and Dragons. And that isn't important.


You may have missed the internet outpouring when Gary Gygax died. His game touched the lives of many lost souls, and seemed much more important than your usual game. He will be missed, and it does little good to slop a bunch of manipulative tricks into a so-called MMO and call it "Dungeons and Dragons".

The other thing is, are you remotely familiar with how much time an MMO can sap from your life? People refer to being "WoW-free" for a reason. It might not be on the level of kidnapping 5 women for 10 years, but you are doing your best to keep hundreds of thousands from escaping for months. You only have so many hours on this world, and letting a company like PWE grab them away and laugh that "it isn't important" seems foolishly short sighted. This might be a case of youth being wasted on the young.

I'm not claiming the science of manipulation is clear enough for regulation or prosecution. But to claim that PWE is acting different than the deepest scum seems to be blinded to visions of mortality.


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