Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

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Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Angua » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:17 am UTC

So, earlier in the week we had an Islamic Centre burned down and now we have anIslamic boarding school fire which the police are treating as suspicious (it's too early to say for sure).

Encouraging words from the first article (it's going to be a bit too early for stuff about the school fire to have started coming out)
The Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC) said Muslims were now living in fear of a "wave of attacks".

Massoud Shadjareh, chair of IHRC, said: "Muslims feel scared right now and it is completely understandable.

"Muslims have been physically attacked, mosques burnt down, cemeteries vandalised and social media is full of anti-Muslim hatred and violent threats towards Muslims.

"More needs to be done to protect the Muslim community."

Mayor of London Boris Johnson said: "There is no place in an open, tolerant and diverse city like London for hate, for prejudice, for violence."

He added: "Londoners will see this for what it is - cowardly, pathetic and utterly pointless."

Labour's shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said: "There is no place in Britain for violent extremist attacks or hate crimes against any faith or community."


I just feel that we need to point out that prejudice against Muslims is very real and dangerous, and that they are just as affected (or even more so) by incidents like the Woolwich murder.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Steax » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:11 pm UTC

A coworker of mine in London, who received death threats, was told "when [Londoners] kill you, blame the people who killed our soldier" or something like that. There's been this sort of "well, it's their own fault for having terrorists" thing among the extremists, but people need to realize that these terrorists do want to incite violence. They want other muslims to be feared and hurt, so the cycle of hate carries on - so hopefully more terrorists pop up. It's a feedback loop of death. They want a war. It's absolutely necessary for this chain to break at all costs, because failure to do so will only bring more violence from all sides.

There is a very real benefit to encouraging everyone to calm down. For everyone.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:46 pm UTC

It's interesting to me, as an internet person, that I've yet to see any conspiracy theories that the soldier's murder was a false flag operation, even though the EDL immediately jumped on and encouraged people to target Muslims in general. Not that I think it was a false flag operation.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Angua » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:36 pm UTC

Looks like the police are going to step up patrols in areas with Islamic buildings. Hopefully they'll manage to stop some fires (or the fires will stop).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22833138
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Ormurinn » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:21 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Looks like the police are going to step up patrols in areas with Islamic buildings. Hopefully they'll manage to stop some fires (or the fires will stop).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22833138


That's probably not a good thing in the long run.

The biggest complaints against Muslim communities in the U.K, excepting terrorism, are that they get special treatment from the law, Particularly when arbitration rules get misrepresented as "creeping sharia law". One of the EDL's favourite chants is "One law for them, one law for us."

There is a legitimate argument that fear of being branded racist does tie the authorities hands in some cases (Rochdale, Derbyshire etc.) But it's mostly bollocks.

More fuel for the fire.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Angua » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:47 pm UTC

So, are you against people who are being targeted with fires getting extra protection, at least for the time being (especially given that these have happened within the last few days)? Or do you just think that somehow anyone raising those arguments will not be seen for the ignorant people that they are.

Because having possible differences in divorce law, and getting protection when a boarding school with kids in has been burnt down are miles apart in all directions.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:21 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:


When they advertise that they did it in the name of religion, well, its easy to develop ill feeling towards that religion. Now I know that they don't represent Islam but some other people may certainly develop some anti Islam tendencies.

I will wait for some senior Islam representatives to condemn this. Oh, but they hardly ever do. For me that is a huge issue.

I will wait for a BattleMoose or some senior white representative to condemn this. Oh, but they hardly ever do. The head of the majority party doesn't count, I want one from a white supremacist group.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Steax » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:34 am UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Angua wrote:Looks like the police are going to step up patrols in areas with Islamic buildings. Hopefully they'll manage to stop some fires (or the fires will stop).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22833138


That's probably not a good thing in the long run.

The biggest complaints against Muslim communities in the U.K, excepting terrorism, are that they get special treatment from the law, Particularly when arbitration rules get misrepresented as "creeping sharia law". One of the EDL's favourite chants is "One law for them, one law for us."

There is a legitimate argument that fear of being branded racist does tie the authorities hands in some cases (Rochdale, Derbyshire etc.) But it's mostly bollocks.

More fuel for the fire.


How is enforcing more patrols in potentially targeted areas "special treatment"? If the police think they have enough evidence to think they need to watch over something, they probably should.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:36 am UTC

And generally do.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:46 am UTC

Blaming the muslim community in general, other than the terrorists and their backers alone, for the the fires is a pretty low form of victim blaming.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby BattleMoose » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:59 am UTC

sardia wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:


When they advertise that they did it in the name of religion, well, its easy to develop ill feeling towards that religion. Now I know that they don't represent Islam but some other people may certainly develop some anti Islam tendencies.

I will wait for some senior Islam representatives to condemn this. Oh, but they hardly ever do. For me that is a huge issue.

I will wait for a BattleMoose or some senior white representative to condemn this. Oh, but they hardly ever do. The head of the majority party doesn't count, I want one from a white supremacist group.


I have absolutely no issue with condemning these actions. Not that I think anyone cares about what I condemn but for what its worth, there it is.

EDIT:
And wouldn't the police be negligent if they didn't protect people who they had reason to believe were vulnerable. If anyone doesn't want this protection, perhaps they could say something. And then they could not be protected according to their wishes.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Alexius » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:46 am UTC

Four teenagers have been arrested over the boarding-school fire.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Роберт » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:55 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
sardia wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:


When they advertise that they did it in the name of religion, well, its easy to develop ill feeling towards that religion. Now I know that they don't represent Islam but some other people may certainly develop some anti Islam tendencies.

I will wait for some senior Islam representatives to condemn this. Oh, but they hardly ever do. For me that is a huge issue.

I will wait for a BattleMoose or some senior white representative to condemn this. Oh, but they hardly ever do. The head of the majority party doesn't count, I want one from a white supremacist group.


I have absolutely no issue with condemning these actions. Not that I think anyone cares about what I condemn but for what its worth, there it is.

EDIT:
And wouldn't the police be negligent if they didn't protect people who they had reason to believe were vulnerable. If anyone doesn't want this protection, perhaps they could say something. And then they could not be protected according to their wishes.

Notice how he never actually condemned the actions. I rest my case.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Ormurinn » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:32 pm UTC

To clarify, I'm not against at risk areas getting extra police patrols.

I'd just not have announced it publicly to avoid giving the EDL extra ammunition. I get that the effects of extra piece of mind for muslims may outweigh this, having thought about it a little more, but my gut feeling was "This is going to justify what the EDL were shouting on their march on friday.

I didn't realise I was expected to explicitly condemn arson attacks. Consider them condemned.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Angua » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:29 pm UTC

Stating that you're having extra patrols isn't just to give peace of minds to the communities involved - it also helps to deter people by shining a light to the fact that more people = more likely to get caught, so you'll get less attempts as well (at least in theory). Seriously, if the EDL try and use this as ammunition I don't see how they'd even have a leg to stand on. While I can sort of see where they're coming from on the issue of Sharia courts, protesting people from getting added protection from clear and present threats just makes no sense to me.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:55 pm UTC

IMO, it shouldn't be a problem if they would be equally willing to increase patrols for other targeted organizations or factions. I suspect that, in fact, they are willing to increase patrols in response to any major, publicized string of crimes, so...that's a rather easy comeback for anyone accusing them of favoritism. Just point at previous focused police work.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:16 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:To clarify, I'm not against at risk areas getting extra police patrols.

I'd just not have announced it publicly to avoid giving the EDL extra ammunition. I get that the effects of extra piece of mind for muslims may outweigh this, having thought about it a little more, but my gut feeling was "This is going to justify what the EDL were shouting on their march on friday.

I didn't realise I was expected to explicitly condemn arson attacks. Consider them condemned.

You don't have to condemn anything, nobody does. Except battlemoose, who demanded one from Muslims when the solider got attacked earlier.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Роберт » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:19 pm UTC

sardia wrote:You don't have to condemn anything, nobody does. Except battlemoose, who demanded one from Muslims when the solider got attacked earlier.

And then conveniently avoided condemning it in the same post in which he claimed he had no problems doing so.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:39 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
sardia wrote:You don't have to condemn anything, nobody does. Except battlemoose, who demanded one from Muslims when the solider got attacked earlier.

And then conveniently avoided condemning it in the same post in which he claimed he had no problems doing so.


That might be nitpicking verbiage just a bit. I thought it was adequately clear that he intended a condemnation of the arsonists. Sure, it wasn't grammatically perfect, but in context, the intent seemed clear enough.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby TheAmazingRando » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:50 pm UTC

I don't understand the call for so-called representatives of certain religious or ethnic groups to publicly denounce things they already obviously disapprove of. Anyone convinced they would endorse it would probably also be convinced they were lying to save face. All you're doing is turning the spotlight away from the perpetrator.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby schismtracer » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:45 pm UTC

I don't understand the call for so-called representatives of certain religious or ethnic groups to publicly denounce things they already obviously disapprove of...All you're doing is turning the spotlight away from the perpetrator.


And turning it onto the perpetrator's demographic. That's generally the point.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Diadem » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:38 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Роберт wrote:
sardia wrote:You don't have to condemn anything, nobody does. Except battlemoose, who demanded one from Muslims when the solider got attacked earlier.

And then conveniently avoided condemning it in the same post in which he claimed he had no problems doing so.

That might be nitpicking verbiage just a bit. I thought it was adequately clear that he intended a condemnation of the arsonists. Sure, it wasn't grammatically perfect, but in context, the intent seemed clear enough.

I have to side with Tyndmyr here. Complaining that he did not comdemn these attacks in that post is on par with answering "Yes" when someone asks "Could you give me some help over here", and then just continuing doing whatever you were doing. Grammatically correct, but semantically wrong.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby BattleMoose » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:22 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Роберт wrote:
sardia wrote:You don't have to condemn anything, nobody does. Except battlemoose, who demanded one from Muslims when the solider got attacked earlier.

And then conveniently avoided condemning it in the same post in which he claimed he had no problems doing so.

That might be nitpicking verbiage just a bit. I thought it was adequately clear that he intended a condemnation of the arsonists. Sure, it wasn't grammatically perfect, but in context, the intent seemed clear enough.

I have to side with Tyndmyr here. Complaining that he did not comdemn these attacks in that post is on par with answering "Yes" when someone asks "Could you give me some help over here", and then just continuing doing whatever you were doing. Grammatically correct, but semantically wrong.


Are people seriously equating, "I have no issue with condemnation" with, " I have an issue with condemnation but am trying to be super snarky so I can appear to be in condemnation whilst actually not specifically condemning". Seriously?!

For all the people who think the later. "I condemn these arsonist attacks." Also I am a little stunned by how many people actually care about my condemnation.

You don't have to condemn anything, nobody does. Except battlemoose, who demanded one from Muslims when the solider got attacked earlier.


I got a little schooled on that, which I accepted. Its up to the Muslim community to condemn any actions (or not). In the previous instance I thought there would be better outcomes for everyone if they would condemn. Which they did.

Not so differently in this current instance, I again feel that there would be better outcomes for everyone if the arsonist actions would be condemned, and they have been. Even the leadership of the EDL has condemned this attack.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Red Hal » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:48 am UTC

EDL reminds me of the POD.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby nitePhyyre » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:49 pm UTC

Sure, they weren't a good band, but that seems a little harsh.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Mutex » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

Speaking of condemnation, Tommy Robinson, the leader of the EDL has condemned the attacks on Muslims.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22852371

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Роберт » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:08 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:I got a little schooled on that, which I accepted. Its up to the Muslim community to condemn any actions (or not). In the previous instance I thought there would be better outcomes for everyone if they would condemn. Which they did.

Not so differently in this current instance, I again feel that there would be better outcomes for everyone if the arsonist actions would be condemned, and they have been. Even the leadership of the EDL has condemned this attack.

I hope you realize that my was really an understated satire of the ridiculous attitudes I've seen IRL from Islamophobes, and not a serious attack on you. Thanks for clarifying anyway.

I was tempted to complain about how your "condemnation" was not your own words, but a quote, but I figured that would be taking the satire a bit farther than necessary to make my point.
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Mutex » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:40 pm UTC

Bomb found outside a mosque in Walsall:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bi ... m-23026874

(I'm putting it in this thread as it seems relevant.)

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Paul in Saudi » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:02 pm UTC


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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Red Hal » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:06 pm UTC

Nature seeks balance? Really?
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Paul in Saudi » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:22 pm UTC

Trust me, especially in arson. Issac Newton showed that years ago.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Weeks » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:23 pm UTC

Just to be clear: you sound like you are, somehow, fine with these attacks. I hope I don't need to explain any further.

Is there particular animosity lately in the UK against muslims/jews/other religions?
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:08 pm UTC

Yeah, but it has to do more with the economy and people venting their rage at the nearest foreigner.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Steax » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:40 am UTC

Judging from anecdotal reports from my family and friends in the UK, it does seem to be more towards foreign-looking people in general (particularly the vaguely-middle-eastern).
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Weeks » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:45 am UTC

So it's a bunch of neo-Naz-- assholes?
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby addams » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:24 am UTC

Weeks wrote:So it's a bunch of neo-Naz-- assholes?

Nope. It is usually worse than that.

The English people have a great deal to be proud of.

It is not simple cultural Strife.
In No Way can I explain what the people of England are going Through.

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It must be so very difficult inside London. I can not understand that.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby AvatarIII » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:20 am UTC

Steax wrote:Judging from anecdotal reports from my family and friends in the UK, it does seem to be more towards foreign-looking people in general (particularly the vaguely-middle-eastern).


I have a friend who is a half Turkish atheist, he looks vaguely middle eastern, and he often gets funny looks or comments, and has mentioned an increase recently.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:57 am UTC

What's happening in the UK is simply a backlash against the perception that immigration ran rampant under the last Labour government. I don't think that's particularly true, and I think that the immigration that happened was a net positive for the UK economy, but the papers spent years making a huge fuss over it and this is the fallout that has resulted. The last government was greedy though, and didn't redistribute the extra billions in tax earnt from immigrants back to local councils to fund new schools and hospitals in the areas growing the fastest. If they had just ploughed the profits back into local infrastructure, local people would have seen immigration for the positive force that it is (in general).

Things are now so bad that foreign students are being put off coming to to study in the UK - and I don't think anyone could deny they are a huge net positive to our economy due to the enormous fees they are willing to pay.

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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby addams » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:10 am UTC

elasto wrote:What's happening in the UK is simply a backlash against the perception that immigration ran rampant under the last Labour government. I don't think that's particularly true, and I think that the immigration that happened was a net positive for the UK economy, but the papers spent years making a huge fuss over it and this is the fallout that has resulted. The last government was greedy though, and didn't redistribute the extra billions in tax earnt from immigrants back to local councils to fund new schools and hospitals in the areas growing the fastest. If they had just ploughed the profits back into local infrastructure, local people would have seen immigration for the positive force that it is (in general).

Things are now so bad that foreign students are being put off coming to to study in the UK - and I don't think anyone could deny they are a huge net positive to our economy due to the enormous fees they are willing to pay.


I have no idea what is happening in London.
This began with an act of Stupid Violence by One Idiot.

That so many should suffer is so wrong.
yes. I Know there are many people of Color in England.

Many of Those People Love England.
I Know this to be True.

English people are like All other people.
They have some nice qualities.
They have some not so nice qualities, too.

What has The Crown said?
Is the anger directed toward Islam?
Is the anger directed toward skin color?

This began with the senseless, violent death of a man?
That is most surely a good reason to Not Do senseless violence.

People get All Fired Up. What could The Crown Say that would help?
Crowns can be ever so useful in Guiding the People toward Nobel and Sane ways of Thinking.
That is what Crowns do, sometimes. Sometimes Crowns can be very self-indulgent.

The Crown has been so very kind and understanding to The People of The World.
I think the Queen is cute. I am not a Queen watcher.
When I notice her, she is so Reasonable and Hopeful.

The Man that started this was not Serving The Crown.

Loads of people Black, Brown and Other serve the Crown with dignity and grace.
Who gets all the attention? Some guy that is Not Like My People!
Do you want to claim him?
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Re: Muslim organisations targetted by fires in London

Postby Ormurinn » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:53 am UTC

elasto wrote:What's happening in the UK is simply a backlash against the perception that immigration ran rampant under the last Labour government. I don't think that's particularly true, and I think that the immigration that happened was a net positive for the UK economy, but the papers spent years making a huge fuss over it and this is the fallout that has resulted. The last government was greedy though, and didn't redistribute the extra billions in tax earnt from immigrants back to local councils to fund new schools and hospitals in the areas growing the fastest. If they had just ploughed the profits back into local infrastructure, local people would have seen immigration for the positive force that it is (in general).

Things are now so bad that foreign students are being put off coming to to study in the UK - and I don't think anyone could deny they are a huge net positive to our economy due to the enormous fees they are willing to pay.


It's not a "perception" that immigration ran rampant while labour was in power, it''s just a fact - the rate of immigration increased massively over those years, and there have been real negative consequences for the native people in places like Leicester, Bradford, Oldham and the like.

I'm in complete agreement with you RE the effects of redistributing the tax money back into those areas, but that wouldn't have been enough. Theres also the effect of the immigration being so concentrated over such a short time - if the immigration of the last ten years had occurred over thirty there'd be less of an issue, but the short timescale and establishment commitment to multiculturalism have impeded assimilation, to the extent that the hearts of many communities have been replaced with ethnically-exclusive ghettoes.

Some labour party members are on record admitting to a political motivation for encouraging large amounts of immigration - certainly the substitution of some communities with labour-voting recent immigrants has been an electoral advantage.

Theres more than just the "papers" making immigration consistently the first or second ranked issue for voters, and the attitude that voters would be so easily hoodwinked is quite patronising.

It is a pity that foreign students are being deterred, but lets not forget that the flashpoint for this was London Met abusing the student visa system and knowingly helping immigrants to work illegally without paying tax. This provided cover for a boneheaded government to try to cut foreign student admissions because that's one of the few avenues available for them to meet the immigration target.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.


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