Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Joeldi » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:40 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:Or maybe it's more that while I'm cisgendered I'm also... cisgendered with regards to the other gender? Hard to explain. Basically I cisgendered but would totally get a female body if we had Ghost in the Shell level prosthetics because who doesn't want to be the cutest thing alive?

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I'm similar. I don't feel male or female, I just feel like me. And I'm hugely curious about what it would like to have a female body. It's an approach I'd like to see emphasised in discussions about transgender. For example, the practice of changing one's name along with one's sex. Names are only male or female because society says they are, but a person's name has always been a part of them.


I do always play as a woman if possible, and I couldn't say why. The critical thinking part of me says that sex doesn't matter, so I should be choosing at random 50/50, but it's ladies every time. I justify it by saying "We need more female protagonists" etc, but I know my personal experience in whatever game I'm playing is only experience by me and doesn't effect the culture around me.

It's a bit unsettling to me that maybe men that /do/ feel particularly masculine have trouble accepting the view point of a female. I know one guy who couldn't stand his avatar on GUITAR HERO, of all things, being one of the female ones.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:18 am UTC

While the gameplay was a bit sexist and most NPC voices were clearly recorded with a male protagonist in mind, I *really* liked the character design options in Saints Row 3. You could be male or female without it having much effect at all on any of the other options, with the exception of the "sex appeal" slider. You got the same race choices, you could be thin or muscular or fat, you could be young or old, you could have whatever kind of facial hair and/or head hair you wanted, you could wear whatever kind of clothes you wanted, and you could kick as much ass as you wanted with the character you thus created.

Most games that allow you to pick a female protagonist at all still tend to have her pretty conventionally attractive, and it's not uncommon for an old or out of shape male option to exist without any such for females.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Joeldi » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:32 am UTC

Good point. In Star Wars, The Old Republic, there's a fat man, but no fat woman (though there is a very tall and muscular one), and for the life of me I could't figure out how to turn the cosmetics option to "none".
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Simius » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:37 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Now, let's consider shooters. Huge market. At any given time, there's usually at least a BF game, and a COD game that pretends to ape real world military stuff. Also a billion low budget clones, naturally. Now, today's military is dominated by men. Historically, it only gets worse. So, female representation in the game tends to be "maybe there's some random unimportant NPCs, and one of them is a woman for variety". Maybe.

I just wanted ro respond to this, since it's an often used argument, and I feel like it further reinforces certain misconceptions. Throughout history, there have been countless women in military positions, we as a society just like to pretend that this is not true.

This is a great article about women in history and fiction. Exactly the same applies to video games, in my opinion.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby yurell » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:23 am UTC

That article was all over the internet a little bit back, and is fantastic.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Derek » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:28 am UTC

Simius wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Now, let's consider shooters. Huge market. At any given time, there's usually at least a BF game, and a COD game that pretends to ape real world military stuff. Also a billion low budget clones, naturally. Now, today's military is dominated by men. Historically, it only gets worse. So, female representation in the game tends to be "maybe there's some random unimportant NPCs, and one of them is a woman for variety". Maybe.

I just wanted ro respond to this, since it's an often used argument, and I feel like it further reinforces certain misconceptions. Throughout history, there have been countless women in military positions, we as a society just like to pretend that this is not true.

This is a great article about women in history and fiction. Exactly the same applies to video games, in my opinion.

Yeah I'm going to call [citation needed] on that. And your link doesn't count: It only gives two examples (ANC militants and Zulus) and neither have citations. While you will always be able to find a few examples of women in combat in history, and even a few large scale examples, historically men have been the overwhelming majority of combat personnel. And more to Tyndmyr's point, the military, while still male dominant, is far more egalitarian today than it was at any other time in history.

(To be clear, I am looking for examples of systemic use of women in combat on the scale of modern western militaries before, say, 1900)

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Magnanimous » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:58 am UTC

Derek wrote:Yeah I'm going to call [citation needed] on that. And your link doesn't count: It only gives two examples (ANC militants and Zulus) and neither have citations. While you will always be able to find a few examples of women in combat in history, and even a few large scale examples, historically men have been the overwhelming majority of combat personnel. And more to Tyndmyr's point, the military, while still male dominant, is far more egalitarian today than it was at any other time in history.

(To be clear, I am looking for examples of systemic use of women in combat on the scale of modern western militaries before, say, 1900)

That article refers to this article, which has the citations you're looking for.

It's true that women haven't been the bulk of armies that much, but I think the point Simius is trying to make is that wherever there's combat you'll find women fighting. It's not unreasonable to play a woman in a historical war game, although your character might make more sense in an independent group rather than the official military. (Or we can screw history and stick women wherever we want. You can hardly find a work of historical fiction that's completely accurate.)

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby leady » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:16 am UTC

I don't think I've caused so much heat & light over a completely trivial topic with an over inflated guestimate figure, which as far as I can tell shouldn't have insulted anyone :)

Yes the figure is more in the 70 - 80 category for what most people would recognise as "gaming" as opposed to playing games (a bit scotsman but meh), but the statistics are very well concealed on the internet, which always makes me suspicious (best I can find is back in 2000). The ESA for example is an entity dedicated to increasing game sales and so naturally it presents the industry with the best light it can because it absolutely wants to blur the still reality of heavy gaming being a very male centric activity. Hence its use of "plays games" as its metrics. Don't get me wrong I don't blame them for this, hell its absolutely true, its just the truth that fits their sales narrative.

The reason I'm confident that gaming is a male activity still is because the games are still massively targetted at men, hence all the "tropes" in the youtube series. To my mind its generally that simple, where the money goes is almost always the real truth. Sure the industry's output will lag any cultural switch (if it really exists) but by and large businesses do not leave money on the table. Of course the other possibility is that male centric, male protagonist based games are also more appealling to female gamers too, particularly those were they are saving damsels etc (I can't say i've read a lot of womens books, but this is persistent theme both sides) - another perspective I imagine anita's videos will avoid :) but maybe I do her a mis-service.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Telchar » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:13 am UTC

leady wrote:The reason I'm confident that gaming is a male activity still is because the games are still massively targetted at men, hence all the "tropes" in the youtube series. To my mind its generally that simple, where the money goes is almost always the real truth. Sure the industry's output will lag any cultural switch (if it really exists) but by and large businesses do not leave money on the table. Of course the other possibility is that male centric, male protagonist based games are also more appealling to female gamers too, particularly those were they are saving damsels etc (I can't say i've read a lot of womens books, but this is persistent theme both sides) - another perspective I imagine anita's videos will avoid :) but maybe I do her a mis-service.


Using that same logic, one would assume women can't vote in the US because most of our elected officials are men.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby leady » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:13 am UTC

not really, casting a vote requires the loss of no personal wealth, nor are choices widespread in a free market.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby phlip » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:24 am UTC

leady wrote:I don't think I've caused so much heat & light over a completely trivial topic with an over inflated guestimate figure, which as far as I can tell shouldn't have insulted anyone :)

OK, so you're saying a large swath of people don't exist (or don't count, because reasons), but it's OK, they shouldn't be insulted.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Chen » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:08 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Look at the difference between a wow human male and a wow human female. I don't get for a second why I would ever choose the male over the female -- you're not only restricted to be a meathead, but an ugly meathead with unpleasant faces and horrible hair options. It's great if ugly meathead floats your boat, but it sucks for everybody else.


A bit OT but I remember a particular outfit from AQ40 like this. My buddy played a male Night Elf druid and got this turquoise generic robe thing. When a female wore it though it was a fancy ass dress with random accessories and the like. It does seem MMOs at least put a lot more attention to female outfits than male outfits.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby leady » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:50 pm UTC

phlip wrote:
leady wrote:I don't think I've caused so much heat & light over a completely trivial topic with an over inflated guestimate figure, which as far as I can tell shouldn't have insulted anyone :)

OK, so you're saying a large swath of people don't exist (or don't count, because reasons), but it's OK, they shouldn't be insulted.


I would suggest that anyone who self identifies in an inoffensive minority and is insulted that an estimate of the relative size is a bit wrong probably needs to walk around with "trigger warning" burnt into their corneas

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby 3fj » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:52 pm UTC

leady wrote:The reason I'm confident that gaming is a male activity still is because the games are still massively targetted at men, hence all the "tropes" in the youtube series. To my mind its generally that simple, where the money goes is almost always the real truth. Sure the industry's output will lag any cultural switch (if it really exists) but by and large businesses do not leave money on the table.

Let's run with your hilariously backwards logic for a second.

FlashyMcAAA, the biggest (in terms of money and manpower to throw around) publisher of video games. They look at the purchasing figures and find out, remarkably, that "Burly Dudes, Get ready to burl" has sold insanely well to the 18-25 male demographic and languished in all other areas. So when it comes to marketing a game from the same kind of genre, "Richard Longington's assault on Damsel hill", they decide to focus their marketing squarely at the 18-25 male demographic. The game gets released and lo and behold! 18-25 males fucking loved it and no one else did! So they start work on "Burly Dudes 2, the reburling" making sure to inflate the cup size of every woman present in an effort to keep the target demographic handy, whilst turning off everyone else.

My point, if it wasn't on the nose enough for you, is that this is a self fulfilling prophecy, and as such "They wouldn't leave money on the table" doesn't apply because it would need to include potential losses in what it sees as their core-demographic.

leady wrote:I would suggest that anyone who self identifies in an inoffensive minority and is insulted that an estimate of the relative size is a bit wrong probably needs to walk around with "trigger warning" burnt into their corneas


You ignored facts because they didn't fit into your world view, then complained that people found that worldview repulsive. I suggest you need those blinkers ripped off you.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby WibblyWobbly » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:53 pm UTC

leady wrote:
phlip wrote:
leady wrote:I don't think I've caused so much heat & light over a completely trivial topic with an over inflated guestimate figure, which as far as I can tell shouldn't have insulted anyone :)

OK, so you're saying a large swath of people don't exist (or don't count, because reasons), but it's OK, they shouldn't be insulted.


I would suggest that anyone who self identifies in an inoffensive minority and is insulted that an estimate of the relative size is a bit wrong probably needs to walk around with "trigger warning" burnt into their corneas

It would be easier and faster to carve "Jackass" onto your forehead so everyone else would be forewarned.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:42 pm UTC

Magnanimous wrote:I don't know, for me it just feels like new territory emotionally/empathetically speaking. I've basically gone through all of the Dude Situations there are.

It's the same reason I don't generally play as a human male in tabletop RPGs: it's boring. It's far more interesting to create and play a character who has a different experience, whether that's a different race, a different ethnicity, a different gender, a different age, or a different worldview.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby leady » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:01 pm UTC

3fj wrote:Let's run with your hilariously backwards logic for a second.

FlashyMcAAA, the biggest (in terms of money and manpower to throw around) publisher of video games. They look at the purchasing figures and find out, remarkably, that "Burly Dudes, Get ready to burl" has sold insanely well to the 18-25 male demographic and languished in all other areas. So when it comes to marketing a game from the same kind of genre, "Richard Longington's assault on Damsel hill", they decide to focus their marketing squarely at the 18-25 male demographic. The game gets released and lo and behold! 18-25 males fucking loved it and no one else did! So they start work on "Burly Dudes 2, the reburling" making sure to inflate the cup size of every woman present in an effort to keep the target demographic handy, whilst turning off everyone else.

My point, if it wasn't on the nose enough for you, is that this is a self fulfilling prophecy, and as such "They wouldn't leave money on the table" doesn't apply because it would need to include potential losses in what it sees as their core-demographic.


yes lets.

What you are basically saying is that every major publisher and as far as I can see almost the entire indie game scene are effectively overlooking a huge demograhic because they are stuck in a basic feedback loop. One company can make such a daft mistake, but practically the entire industry? If you seriously hold that viewpoint i'd get coding and stop having meaningless debates on the internet - theres gold out there for the taking!

You ignored facts because they didn't fit into your world view, then complained that people found that worldview repulsive. I suggest you need those blinkers ripped off you.


I didn't ignore facts, they are simply irrelevent to anita's videos and the gaming world. We aren't bemoaning the sexism inherent in angry birds :)

I find my blinkered view is normally spot on, i've noticed that its others that seem to demand that reality changes.

It would be easier and faster to carve "Jackass" onto your forehead so everyone else would be forewarned.


Besides my general tactic of out condescending other posters, i'm actually quite supprised at the vitriol here. But yes I'm like this in real life too, so the tattoo would be excessive :)

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:10 pm UTC

leady wrote:yes lets.

What you are basically saying is that every major publisher and as far as I can see almost the entire indie game scene are effectively overlooking a huge demograhic because they are stuck in a basic feedback loop. One company can make such a daft mistake, but practically the entire industry? If you seriously hold that viewpoint i'd get coding and stop having meaningless debates on the internet - theres gold out there for the taking!


The banking industry would provide an example of a feedback loop causing fairly large-scale poor choices. This feedback loop exists, sure, but this is a simplified example for clarity. It's a wee bit more complicated in real life. It's just hard to properly model real life in detail without have enormous posts.

Also, if you want to join the indie game developers movement, I encourage you to do so. We need more new ideas in games executed properly...not just because of gender diversity, but because game development can be improved in any number of different ways. Look at minecraft...would we have seen that game from EA? Probably not, but it's fantastic.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby 3fj » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:55 pm UTC

leady wrote:
3fj wrote:Let's run with your hilariously backwards logic for a second.

FlashyMcAAA, the biggest (in terms of money and manpower to throw around) publisher of video games. They look at the purchasing figures and find out, remarkably, that "Burly Dudes, Get ready to burl" has sold insanely well to the 18-25 male demographic and languished in all other areas. So when it comes to marketing a game from the same kind of genre, "Richard Longington's assault on Damsel hill", they decide to focus their marketing squarely at the 18-25 male demographic. The game gets released and lo and behold! 18-25 males fucking loved it and no one else did! So they start work on "Burly Dudes 2, the reburling" making sure to inflate the cup size of every woman present in an effort to keep the target demographic handy, whilst turning off everyone else.

My point, if it wasn't on the nose enough for you, is that this is a self fulfilling prophecy, and as such "They wouldn't leave money on the table" doesn't apply because it would need to include potential losses in what it sees as their core-demographic.


yes lets.

What you are basically saying is that every major publisher and as far as I can see almost the entire indie game scene are effectively overlooking a huge demograhic because they are stuck in a basic feedback loop. One company can make such a daft mistake, but practically the entire industry? If you seriously hold that viewpoint i'd get coding and stop having meaningless debates on the internet - theres gold out there for the taking!


It's an example, and I'm suggesting it's something that's affecting huge swaths of triple-As; It affected Bioshock Infinite, and nearly affected Remember Me. I think for the most part, indies are continuing to be the solution to this problem; providing an outlet that isn't a straight example of the shittier tropes; and not being forced to include them by a publisher because "They sell, we have the data". I invite you to try your hand at making an indie game development as much as the next person, and I wish you luck with that.

leady wrote:
You ignored facts because they didn't fit into your world view, then complained that people found that worldview repulsive. I suggest you need those blinkers ripped off you.


I didn't ignore facts, they are simply irrelevent to anita's videos and the gaming world. We aren't bemoaning the sexism inherent in angry birds :)

I find my blinkered view is normally spot on, i've noticed that its others that seem to demand that reality changes.

Well no, what you said was that a stated figure was wrong because you decided you didn't like the result. We're not discussing Angry Birds because it doesn't do anything sexist so far as I know. If you've an opinion on that, I'd be interested to hear it.

Show me how I'm living in an alternate reality. I've supplied you with two examples that prove my point, show me something that proves yours.

leady wrote:
It would be easier and faster to carve "Jackass" onto your forehead so everyone else would be forewarned.


Besides my general tactic of out condescending other posters, i'm actually quite supprised at the vitriol here. But yes I'm like this in real life too, so the tattoo would be excessive :)

You realise "Burning" is particularly violent, right?
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby WibblyWobbly » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:42 pm UTC

leady wrote:
It would be easier and faster to carve "Jackass" onto your forehead so everyone else would be forewarned.


Besides my general tactic of out condescending other posters, i'm actually quite supprised at the vitriol here. But yes I'm like this in real life too, so the tattoo would be excessive :)

No vitriol intended. I was just extending your sarcastic hyperbole regarding offended people needing "to walk around with 'trigger warning' burnt into their corneas". If you find that large swathes of people who you've written off as being too marginal to matter point out that your best argument is a misrepresentation of the size of that group (along with a general "well, it makes sense to me!" argument without any actual merit) and seem offended about it, and your response is that they're being too sensitive and need to give your ignorance more priority, perhaps you should reconsider your position. Or at least remove the blinders. Of course your view will appear spot on when you can't see the forest for the tree in front of your face.

Also, condescension really works better when you can actually claim a superior position. If you find one, let us know.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:51 am UTC

I believe leady was talking about image persistence, not literally branding them.
Роберт wrote:On the OP topic: BORING! Someone asked for $6000 to help her put together a few videos, got way more than she asked for, so she upped the production quality and made more videos. In making the videos, she used some footage under "fair use" law.

I really think the main reason people are complaining about this are due to innate biases etc. (But if I use the term "misogynistic" I guess my entire post will be discredited. Gee Willikers.)

"Hardcore" gamers tend to attack anyone espousing a different viewpoint. This isn't the first time they've accused a critic of not playing a game.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Queue » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:54 pm UTC

So I'm reading here about people's arguments about what the games industry itself does and doesn't publish, and I have what I think is a related question: Do the people who create entertainment have a social responsibility to not (possibly exclusively) cater to anti-social, gratuitous or ridiculously one-dimensional escapist roleplaying fantasies?

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby 3fj » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:28 pm UTC

Queue wrote:So I'm reading here about people's arguments about what the games industry itself does and doesn't publish, and I have what I think is a related question: Do the people who create entertainment have a social responsibility to not (possibly exclusively) cater to anti-social, gratuitous or ridiculously one-dimensional escapist roleplaying fantasies?

No, but that doesn't preclude us from criticising the game for being any or all of those things. They don't even stop us playing them. Tropes are not bad, they don't preclude us from enjoying something, it's just disappointing to see over and over again.
At a certain point I'm going to say "You are a company who puts out burly dudes and lady caricatures exclusively, and I don't want to play that." Some companies already have this rep, turning off newcomers. Some can gain it in the space of just one game (Gearbox, the Duke Nukem incident).
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Queue » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:31 pm UTC

3fj wrote:No, but that doesn't preclude us from criticising the game for being any or all of those things. They don't even stop us playing them. Tropes are not bad, they don't preclude us from enjoying something, it's just disappointing to see over and over again.

I'm saying this only semi-seriously, but this may be an indication that you're getting older. :) For every generation of games/movies that you cannot BELIEVE they are rehashing the same tired old clichés, there is a crop of fresh young gamers experiencing it for the first time, and a crop of slightly-used young gamers who haven't gotten sick of it yet.
At a certain point I'm going to say "You are a company who puts out burly dudes and lady caricatures exclusively, and I don't want to play that." Some companies already have this rep, turning off newcomers. Some can gain it in the space of just one game (Gearbox, the Duke Nukem incident).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing you at all; I'm simply looking for the line between, "this isn't a problem, but it's not for me", and "this reflects/aggravates/is an actual problem, and we have to do something about it".

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby 3fj » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:03 pm UTC

Queue wrote:
3fj wrote:No, but that doesn't preclude us from criticising the game for being any or all of those things. They don't even stop us playing them. Tropes are not bad, they don't preclude us from enjoying something, it's just disappointing to see over and over again.

I'm saying this only semi-seriously, but this may be an indication that you're getting older. :) For every generation of games/movies that you cannot BELIEVE they are rehashing the same tired old clichés, there is a crop of fresh young gamers experiencing it for the first time, and a crop of slightly-used young gamers who haven't gotten sick of it yet.

I think that's true of a lot of things, but there's a fundamental difference between "This tires me" and "This is wrong". The reason I don't play Call of Duty games anymore beyond the overly-macho thing is because the mechanics don't do anything to renew my interest. The reason I don't buy Leisure Suit Larry is because it's a game about being a walking embodiment of rape culture.
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At a certain point I'm going to say "You are a company who puts out burly dudes and lady caricatures exclusively, and I don't want to play that." Some companies already have this rep, turning off newcomers. Some can gain it in the space of just one game (Gearbox, the Duke Nukem incident).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing you at all; I'm simply looking for the line between, "this isn't a problem, but it's not for me", and "this reflects/aggravates/is an actual problem, and we have to do something about it".

Well, the best you can do as a consumer is not buy something and warn others off of it. There's nothing illegal about a game that has nothing but rescuing princesses and firing those princesses at the sun, so it's not like you can stop it being made; but you can sure as hell tell everyone you know that it's bullshit, why it's bullshit and encourage them not to buy it because it's bullshit.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Vash » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:29 pm UTC

This situation is just crap. I really don't think her arguments are correct, but I don't think she deserves any more flak, really. That is especially true because most of it is completely unproductive. I mean, it's no wonder she thinks the whole community is discriminatory if it treats her like garbage instead of exercising some patience. (Worse, people even made rape threats, etc. How much misunderstanding could you possibly seek?) Not that I am really above it. I think this discussion is not the best use of a large portion of my energy, so I would only really like to make passing comments. The relevance to me, scope of the topic, and amount of the effect are all pretty low. Also, there's no way to actually address Anita Sarkeesian herself with constructive criticism because it all just sounds like abuse to her now after all of the actual abuse got hurled at her. I doubt she reads comments/messages anymore, and they are even blocked in places. Anyway, really, good on her for standing up to people acting like assholes by doing her videos despite them.

What I do think, however, is that she should step it up a mite for sake of her fans and donors. She should not have taken the footage without credit. The footage is actually itself fair use of the video game materials as long as it is cited, but the work put into assembling it makes it theirs. (Yes, I know that this is not a perfect argument. It is about what I am willing to do for now, though) She at least needed to cite the videos. She also has a budget so large that she could have hired someone to make footage, even if she did not want to do it herself. Reused footage is probably not as good as footage carefully selected for her point. She could have added things that never made it into Let's Play videos. (It's not like every playthrough contains every moment of every game). I would also say that she does not truly analyze the materials, consider the arguments from all sides (necessary in order to see what the game creators really meant to do, not to mention necessary just to come to the correct conclusion even given a certain understanding of what they meant to do), and that the arguments are not very strong. However, I have to withhold strict judgment because I have not myself done an in-depth analysis.

I don't necessarily disagree with some of her points, though I can't really prove it either. I think that there are probably too many damsels in games, for example.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:16 pm UTC

Vash wrote:(Worse, people even made rape threats, etc. How much misunderstanding could you possibly seek?)
Considering that there are *always* rape threats against women who pubicly criticize sexism, I'm not at all sure it should be described as a misunderstanding at all.

I've seen it said before that the comments on any online article about feminism do a pretty good job proving that feminism is necessary, and this is a similar case. When the response to someone pointing out rape culture is to threaten to rape that person, I'd say she pretty much hit the nail on the head and understands *perfectly* what she is talking about.

What I do think, however, is that she should step it up a mite for sake of her fans and donors.
Why? Her fans and donors are not the ones whining that she didn't do things "properly" (where "properly" will inevitably shift to always mean something *other* than what a person criticizing the majority in fact did.) As far as I can see, the people criticizing her on this point don't deserve any particular consideration on her part.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:39 pm UTC

Vash wrote:She at least needed to cite the videos.

I'm a fan of the "talk about stuff with YouTube clips behind you" genre, and I don't know of anyone who credits everything in their video. Tosh.0 doesn't personally thank every idiot who nuts themselves on a railing. PBS Idea Channel doesn't cite every lolcat meme they throw up in the background. People on this message board don't spell out that they did not actually create the image of Captain Picard placing his head in his hands, and that should be attributed to Star Trek, Patrick Stewart, and Gene Roddenberry, respectively. It seems to me like this is a made-up criterion that isn't applied anywhere else on the internet and is used to justify attacking this woman by people who want to attack her.
Vash wrote:She also has a budget so large that she could have hired someone to make footage, even if she did not want to do it herself.

That's just wasteful. I wouldn't want my money to go to paying hundreds of dollars to get something that is free on the internet. Sarkeesian's supporters didn't pay her to recreate footage. They paid her to make videos.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:13 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Vash wrote:(Worse, people even made rape threats, etc. How much misunderstanding could you possibly seek?)
Considering that there are *always* rape threats against women who pubicly criticize sexism, I'm not at all sure it should be described as a misunderstanding at all.

I've seen it said before that the comments on any online article about feminism do a pretty good job proving that feminism is necessary, and this is a similar case. When the response to someone pointing out rape culture is to threaten to rape that person, I'd say she pretty much hit the nail on the head and understands *perfectly* what she is talking about.


Not quite the same thing. Sexism in video games ain't the same as actual threats, and the presence of one does not demonstrate accuracy of analysis of the other.

What I do think, however, is that she should step it up a mite for sake of her fans and donors.
Why? Her fans and donors are not the ones whining that she didn't do things "properly" (where "properly" will inevitably shift to always mean something *other* than what a person criticizing the majority in fact did.) As far as I can see, the people criticizing her on this point don't deserve any particular consideration on her part.


Not all of them, certainly. Lumping all the criticism together has the unfortunate effect of lumping perfectly valid complaints in with straight up sexist rants. It is perfectly rational to give credence to the former while ignoring the latter.

Heisenberg wrote:
Vash wrote:She at least needed to cite the videos.

I'm a fan of the "talk about stuff with YouTube clips behind you" genre, and I don't know of anyone who credits everything in their video. Tosh.0 doesn't personally thank every idiot who nuts themselves on a railing. PBS Idea Channel doesn't cite every lolcat meme they throw up in the background. People on this message board don't spell out that they did not actually create the image of Captain Picard placing his head in his hands, and that should be attributed to Star Trek, Patrick Stewart, and Gene Roddenberry, respectively. It seems to me like this is a made-up criterion that isn't applied anywhere else on the internet and is used to justify attacking this woman by people who want to attack her.


Tosh.0 very frequently attributes videos. Hell, the whole web redemption concept pretty clearly shows the person in the video...credit is implicit in that. They also don't make it appear as if it's their creation in any way, you really can't reasonably get that impression from the show...so it's not really a big deal.

As for the random stuff...non commercial uses are generally held to a lower standard.

Consider the following examples in a different medium...a lengthy quote from someone else's work, unattributed, on a non commercial flier. A lengthy quote from someone else's work, unattributed, on a fanfic online, available for free. A lengthy quote from someone else's work, unattributed, in a novel for sale.

Obviously, the latter is going to be held to the highest standard of the lot. And yeah, sometimes even there, people get sloppy. Calling people on it is fair, though.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Sizik » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:31 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:As for the random stuff...non commercial uses are generally held to a lower standard.

Consider the following examples in a different medium...a lengthy quote from someone else's work, unattributed, on a non commercial flier. A lengthy quote from someone else's work, unattributed, on a fanfic online, available for free. A lengthy quote from someone else's work, unattributed, in a novel for sale.

Obviously, the latter is going to be held to the highest standard of the lot. And yeah, sometimes even there, people get sloppy. Calling people on it is fair, though.


In this case, it's more like "A lengthy quote from someone else's performance of Shakespeare, attributed to Shakespeare."
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:35 pm UTC

Sizik wrote:In this case, it's more like "A lengthy quote from someone else's performance of Shakespeare, attributed to Shakespeare."


Reasonable. Still, recording and selling other people's performances of Shakespeare without crediting or asking them would be a bit rude.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Sizik » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:43 pm UTC

Actually, a more applicable analogy would be a photocopy of text from a published collection of Shakespeare, attributed to Shakespeare and not to the publisher.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:45 pm UTC

Sizik wrote:Actually, a more applicable analogy would be a photocopy of text from a published collection of Shakespeare, attributed to Shakespeare and not to the publisher.


Not quite. Variations in performance exist based on the style of the performers. The same is true of video game play throughs.

We don't attribute things to publishers, but we do to performers.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Vash » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:00 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:As for the random stuff...non commercial uses are generally held to a lower standard.

Consider the following examples in a different medium...a lengthy quote from someone else's work, unattributed, on a non commercial flier. A lengthy quote from someone else's work, unattributed, on a fanfic online, available for free. A lengthy quote from someone else's work, unattributed, in a novel for sale.

Obviously, the latter is going to be held to the highest standard of the lot. And yeah, sometimes even there, people get sloppy. Calling people on it is fair, though.


Non-commercial uses are not necessarily held to a lower standard. Think academics. These videos are somewhat academic.

Sizik wrote:In this case, it's more like "A lengthy quote from someone else's performance of Shakespeare, attributed to Shakespeare."


Actually, you generally have to cite the actual performance, as far as I know.

Sizik wrote:Actually, a more applicable analogy would be a photocopy of text from a published collection of Shakespeare, attributed to Shakespeare and not to the publisher.


This is correct.

Tyndmyr wrote:Not quite. Variations in performance exist based on the style of the performers. The same is true of video game play throughs.

We don't attribute things to publishers, but we do to performers.


Actually, I think you do have to state what something was published in depending on the citation format.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Vash » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:00 pm UTC

I'm sorry. I forgot to add that to this post, and I don't have the ability to edit still.

gmalivuk wrote:Considering that there are *always* rape threats against women who pubicly criticize sexism, I'm not at all sure it should be described as a misunderstanding at all.


I think the majority of people who make rape threats on the internet are probably not serious. It's a realm of fantasy toughness. However, without actual evidence, anything could be true, really. The number of known cases where a rape threat on the internet has escalated to actual rape is really what one should look at.

gmalivuk wrote:I've seen it said before that the comments on any online article about feminism do a pretty good job proving that feminism is necessary, and this is a similar case. When the response to someone pointing out rape culture is to threaten to rape that person, I'd say she pretty much hit the nail on the head and understands *perfectly* what she is talking about.


Feminism is necessary, but I don't think that trolls prove it. If calling trolls serious is the justification needed to say that feminism is needed, then it looks a lot more like it is not. I prefer stronger reasons: for example, in the first world, a number of countries lack maternity leave. Women are also outright oppressed in a huge number of countries around the world.

Rape threats are also to an extent just a matter of violence and social dysfunctional rather than feminism. If you look at murder threats and rape of men, I think it's clear that while feminism most likely plays a significant role, it's more broad than that as well.

gmalivuk wrote:Why? Her fans and donors are not the ones whining that she didn't do things "properly" (where "properly" will inevitably shift to always mean something *other* than what a person criticizing the majority in fact did.) As far as I can see, the people criticizing her on this point don't deserve any particular consideration on her part.


Even if someone does not know better, they still deserve more.

However, I think it is unclear, and I think some donors have been disappointed. I certainly can see her perspective, though. She's been hit with a deluge of abuse. It's not necessarily her fault that she did not do everything perfectly in response, and the most important thing really is that she is making the videos and standing up for herself.

Heisenberg wrote:
Vash wrote:She at least needed to cite the videos.

I'm a fan of the "talk about stuff with YouTube clips behind you" genre, and I don't know of anyone who credits everything in their video. Tosh.0 doesn't personally thank every idiot who nuts themselves on a railing. PBS Idea Channel doesn't cite every lolcat meme they throw up in the background. People on this message board don't spell out that they did not actually create the image of Captain Picard placing his head in his hands, and that should be attributed to Star Trek, Patrick Stewart, and Gene Roddenberry, respectively. It seems to me like this is a made-up criterion that isn't applied anywhere else on the internet and is used to justify attacking this woman by people who want to attack her.


I've seen a lot of people credit, but I also see your point somewhat. Nonetheless, it's a professional project.

Tosh.0 might actually put people in the credits if they are identifiable. I haven't checked. It's not uncommon in a TV show.

Really, though, I kind of want to drop it, because I think Sarkeesian has gotten enough hate.

Heisenberg wrote:
Vash wrote:She also has a budget so large that she could have hired someone to make footage, even if she did not want to do it herself.

That's just wasteful. I wouldn't want my money to go to paying hundreds of dollars to get something that is free on the internet. Sarkeesian's supporters didn't pay her to recreate footage. They paid her to make videos.


It's not wasteful, because it allows for a better video. From my perspective, I would always go to the original source if I was trying to make a truly solid rather than tentative criticism.

Anyway, I have to go.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Derek » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:03 pm UTC

Vash wrote:(It's not like every playthrough contains every moment of every game).

Actually a lot of Let's Plays are complete end to end. It's one of the main points of the genre, that's it's not just a summary or a review, but an honest play through of the game. Although some LPers will still skip or fast forward very repetitive or boring parts, like the part where they die fifty times on the same section.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Magnanimous » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:36 pm UTC

Vash wrote:I think the majority of people who make rape threats on the internet are probably not serious. It's a realm of fantasy toughness. However, without actual evidence, anything could be true, really. The number of known cases where a rape threat on the internet has escalated to actual rape is really what one should look at.
Whether or not threats lead to actual rape isn't the primary issue; rape threats are bad because they're bullying and they reinforce the problematic culture of the former. The best way to internalize a concept is to rehearse it as often as possible with your peers. I suspect rape threats rarely result in the target being raped, but contribute to the overall crime rate.
Vash wrote:Feminism is necessary, but I don't think that trolls prove it. If calling trolls serious is the justification needed to say that feminism is needed, then it looks a lot more like it is not. I prefer stronger reasons: for example, in the first world, a number of countries lack maternity leave. Women are also outright oppressed in a huge number of countries around the world.

I think this idea (is it a Law? I think somebody's name was attached) is somewhat satirical, for the reasons you stated. But harassment is still serious and I highly suspect it contributes to the culture that leads to discrimination around the world.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:40 pm UTC

Rape threats don't need to come with a high probability of real world rape to be a perfect example of rape culture.
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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby Vash » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:26 am UTC

Derek wrote:
Vash wrote:(It's not like every playthrough contains every moment of every game).

Actually a lot of Let's Plays are complete end to end. It's one of the main points of the genre, that's it's not just a summary or a review, but an honest play through of the game. Although some LPers will still skip or fast forward very repetitive or boring parts, like the part where they die fifty times on the same section.


I know that, but a lot of games can't be fully played in a single playthrough. Further, these alternate options could contribute to a change in the meaning of the game.

As for the rest, I'm too tired to think decently clearly, so I won't bother until tomorrow. (I had already thought of that other point while I could still think clearly). I hope I won't be double-posting, that would really bother me.

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Re: Anita Sarkeesian used footage from "Let's Play" videos

Postby nitePhyyre » Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:22 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Considering that there are *always* rape threats against women who pubicly criticize sexism, I'm not at all sure it should be described as a misunderstanding at all.

I've seen it said before that the comments on any online article about feminism do a pretty good job proving that feminism is necessary, and this is a similar case. When the response to someone pointing out rape culture is to threaten to rape that person, I'd say she pretty much hit the nail on the head and understands *perfectly* what she is talking about.
Not really, it's more like a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Sure, whenever we point out rape culture online people make rape jokes. Whenever we point out the horrors of the holocaust people make death camp jokes. When we bring up the difficulties in foreign relations with extreme nations, people sing 'bomb Iran' to the tune of 'The Beach Boys - Barbara Ann'. When you talk about the issues of the environment, people say that climate scientists are evil charlatan fraudsters. When you talk about parenthood, peoplle make jokes about killing babies. When you get the same behavior on basically every single topic, sure, it might be because some people are sexist, some people are xenophobic, some people are homophobic, some people are infancidal, some people are genocidal, some people are anti-semetic, etc, etc, etc...

Or it could simply be that people are assholes. Especially while online and anonymous.
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