US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Chen » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:17 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Then why do states force women to read a bunch of stuff before getting an abortion?


Because its another obstacle anti-abortionists put into place to try and prevent abortions from happening. It's kind of the opposite of what we need for vaccines. Adding the step of making them read the stuff before they could get an exemption might work in a similar manner. Make the stuff very visual with lotsa of suffering children due to preventable illness and whatnot. Might help.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:28 pm UTC

Read what Derek said.
Derek wrote:is that onesonce people have formed a strong opinion, making them read opposing literature only further ingrains them.
In the case of the women getting an abortion one would assume that not every women has a strong opinion about the process, the literature is an appeal to the underlying emotion. It won't work for everyone. Then again it doesn't have to.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:35 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Then why do states force women to read a bunch of stuff before getting an abortion?


If you can't ban, regulate. Enough regulations and rules make complying with all of them onerous and difficult.

Why, certainly, you can have free speach, in your free speach zone, if you applied at least thirty days in advance, at the understaffed office of permits(entirely across town from the office of permiting), which has to be done in person on the fifth wednesday of the month.

Sometimes such BS gets slapped down, but if done in bits and peices, each of which sounds not so bad on it's own, the cumulative effect can be quite important indeed. This may not even be entirely intentional(though it probably is here), as the same folks may not be voting on all the bits, depending on jursidictions, and are unlikely to know all the detailed legal interactions of the subjects they are voting on.

I'm not a great fan of this approach for vaccination, as I feel it's inherently dishonest, and contributes to persecution complexes, and doesn't actually change minds. The cause is worthy, sure, but going about it this way, well...it's not a good fix.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Mokele » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:27 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I'm not a great fan of this approach for vaccination, as I feel it's inherently dishonest, and contributes to persecution complexes, and doesn't actually change minds. The cause is worthy, sure, but going about it this way, well...it's not a good fix.


I actually hold out some hope that, as a silver lining to this catastrophe, there might be broader society-wide discussions of how and why people believe stupid things and how to get them to change their views (not an easy thing, from the psych stuff I've read on the issue).

Previously, for other stupid beliefs, it's always been "oh, they're not hurting anyone" or "they're only hurting themselves". Now we have a provably stupid beliefs harming other people's children, and that might just be the push we as a society need to deal with our broad problems in this area (anti-intellectualism, reliance on anecdote, rejection or suspicion of experts, etc.) head on.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Angua » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:55 pm UTC

WHO 'taken aback' by measles outbreaks.

Measles vaccinations must be immediately stepped up across Europe and central Asia after a series of outbreaks, the World Health Organization says.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:19 pm UTC

Mokele wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I'm not a great fan of this approach for vaccination, as I feel it's inherently dishonest, and contributes to persecution complexes, and doesn't actually change minds. The cause is worthy, sure, but going about it this way, well...it's not a good fix.


I actually hold out some hope that, as a silver lining to this catastrophe, there might be broader society-wide discussions of how and why people believe stupid things and how to get them to change their views (not an easy thing, from the psych stuff I've read on the issue).

Previously, for other stupid beliefs, it's always been "oh, they're not hurting anyone" or "they're only hurting themselves". Now we have a provably stupid beliefs harming other people's children, and that might just be the push we as a society need to deal with our broad problems in this area (anti-intellectualism, reliance on anecdote, rejection or suspicion of experts, etc.) head on.


Anti-intellectualism, etc has always hurt others to some degree, yeah. It would, perhaps be nice to allow some sort of self-culling mechanism that weeds out those who are anti-intellectual through their own choices. Children and those they infect are not satisfyingly direct, so anti-vaxxing isn't right, but maybe self driving cars will be it. Maybe those that insist on driving themselves, drinking, and so forth will finally become a self-solving problem.

Ah, it's a nice dream, anyway.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby BlackSails » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:23 pm UTC

Drunk drivers kill other people.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:16 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Drunk drivers kill other people.


They certainly do, in a fairly obvious fashion. But they also die themselves, sometimes. It's not exactly a safe habit for the one engaging in it. So, it does act as a selection pressure of sorts on poor decision making(albeit not a very good one, because of various factors).

Self driving cars makes that much more about being anti-progress/technology. Because a drunk guy with a self driving car(once entirely automated) pretty much just gets driven home. The folks who hate automation, not so much. Still not a perfect selector because they can likely still kill other people to at least some degree, but hopefully automation will eventually be good enough to push the needle more towards them being primarily a danger to themselves.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby addams » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:59 am UTC

leafy wrote:I remember back in the day when all the kids at primary just got all this diseases (well bar polio, smallpox) as a matter of course :)

I remember that, too.
Only, we did not leave Polio out.

My brother suffered from Polio.
He was my mother's first child and she adored him.

Her dedicated care of her son was all she could offer him.
She sat up, night after night holding her teen age son.

When Polio was done with him, he had to learn to walk, again.
Half of his body was weak, all the rest of his life.

The Modern American might long for Heroic Days.
Days when mothers held their children helplessly, while the the child died.

Heroic Days of Courage attending funerals for one child after the other in the Spring and the funeral of their mother in the Fall.
Good GMO foods make the herd strong. Humanity will withstand the Anti-Vaccers. My temperament may Not.

Or; Maybe, it will.
I have spoken to the poor ignorant and frightened anti-Vaccer Moms.
The common average person has No Clue who to believe.

It is better for the Anti-Vaccer to allow Nothing to happen to their child than to let Medical Voo-Doo harm that child.
It may not look like Voo-Doo to you and me. It looks like Voo-Doo to them.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Mokele » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:01 pm UTC

addams wrote:I have spoken to the poor ignorant and frightened anti-Vaccer Moms.
The common average person has No Clue who to believe.

It is better for the Anti-Vaccer to allow Nothing to happen to their child than to let Medical Voo-Doo harm that child.
It may not look like Voo-Doo to you and me. It looks like Voo-Doo to them.


This is precisely the problem. They don't know what to believe from their own experience, and that's fine and normal - we're not all simultaneously experts in history, chemistry, biology, physics, economics, anthropology and math.

The problem is that, when faced with this lack of knowledge, they refuse to listen to experts, people who have spent tremendous amounts of effort, time and money to learn everything they can about an area, who have made understanding it their life's work.

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” - Issac Asimov

I honestly have no idea where this particular cultural pathology comes from. Why is it so prevalent in the US? Why do certain people fall prey more easily? And, most crucially, how do we stop it?

I'm not saying "the experts are always right", but so many people seem to have trouble with the idea of giving an opinion extra weight due to expertise, equating it with "the experts are always right" and consequently going too far in the opposite direction by giving it either no more weight or even postulating conspiratorial or financial motives without evidence.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:36 pm UTC

"In the US"?

From the Beeb. Editor's picks of the 'best' comments about Andrew Wakefield in 2002. Fucking morons, all.

Then there is the rest of Europe with their anti GMO nonsense. EVERYTHING is GMO. What, you think wolves just poofed into dogs? Oranges don't even exist in the wild (it's a hybrid of pomelo and mandarin). The difference between gene splicing and regular breeding is that the splicing is safer; we KNOW what DNA will be added. With the old way, you could accidentally breed a potato with unusually high solanine (the Lenape potato) and not know until after people have gotten sick. But there have been 0, yes 0, provable cases of people being sick from GMO crops. Oh, and remember all those people that died from E. coli in their food? Every case was traced back to an 'organic' farm. Because using raw manure naturally leads to contamination; turns out we use pesticides and herbicides for a reason.

Speaking of which, I'm going to go drink some pesticides right now. Caffeine. Just because it kills bugs doesn't mean it'll harm you.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:08 pm UTC

Mokele wrote:I honestly have no idea where this particular cultural pathology comes from. Why is it so prevalent in the US? Why do certain people fall prey more easily? And, most crucially, how do we stop it?
You don't. You can continue to educate, and you can try to legislate. But if you don't beat it everywhere then the possibility exists for a outbreak. And while you are worrying, talk to the Austrians @74% percent vaccination coverage and the French @89%.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:41 pm UTC

Just a general comment, since it's come up repeatedly in this thread and others--sometimes jokingly, and sometimes clothed in righteous anger:

I'm a bit troubled by the blasé attitude (or wishful thinking, perhaps?) that people who don't share our own views will die out as a result of their own stupidity.

I see no significant difference between the person who gleefully says that God is smiting down the unrighteous and the person who gleefully says that Darwinism is working as it should. The self-centered "I told you so" schadenfreude seems equally unbecoming.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:50 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Just a general comment, since it's come up repeatedly in this thread and others--sometimes jokingly, and sometimes clothed in righteous anger:

I'm a bit troubled by the blasé attitude (or wishful thinking, perhaps?) that people who don't share our own views will die out as a result of their own stupidity.

I see no significant difference between the person who gleefully says that God is smiting down the unrighteous and the person who gleefully says that Darwinism is working as it should. The self-centered "I told you so" schadenfreude seems equally unbecoming.

Its hard to do anything to help them wo violating their rights. Its easier to eat the social cost and move on. There's starving babies who are more grateful for our help.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby freezeblade » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:14 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Oranges don't even exist in the wild (it's a hybrid of pomelo and mandarin)


Hate to be pendatic, but oranges were likely chance seedlings, a natural hybrid (pomelo readly hybridizes with any other readly hybridizing citrus near it, such as manderins). Nearly every citrus we know today (along with almost every apple) were chance seedlings that happened in the wild (or semi-wild), which we then propagated via grafting (however, oranges in paticular are interesting, in that they don't generally hybridize. If you plant an orange seed, you will get an orange. Any orange hybrid such as grapefruit or "honey manderins" were also chance seedlings). So yeah, they do happen in the wild. Don't go tossing around information like this unless you know what you're talking about.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:00 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Just a general comment, since it's come up repeatedly in this thread and others--sometimes jokingly, and sometimes clothed in righteous anger:

I'm a bit troubled by the blasé attitude (or wishful thinking, perhaps?) that people who don't share our own views will die out as a result of their own stupidity.

I see no significant difference between the person who gleefully says that God is smiting down the unrighteous and the person who gleefully says that Darwinism is working as it should. The self-centered "I told you so" schadenfreude seems equally unbecoming.


The difference is that I don't believe in god, but I do believe in measles.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:36 pm UTC

There's also a dostinc ion to be had between metaphysical beliefs and knowledge. I don't think someone is dumb because they believe in god, but I think they're dumb if they think praying instead of chemo is a viable treatment for their cancer.

Similarly, I think someone dumb if they think they know better than doctors when it comes to vaccines.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:49 pm UTC

Wikipedia says the origin (orangin?) is assumed to be southern China 4500 years ago and is unknown in the wild state. So, likely the result of farming; maybe it was accidental, but the point is that it grew as a result of human intervention.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby freezeblade » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:21 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wikipedia says the origin (orangin?) is assumed to be southern China 4500 years ago and is unknown in the wild state. So, likely the result of farming; maybe it was accidental, but the point is that it grew as a result of human intervention.


I don't know if that can be assumed at all, especally because the grapefruit, navel orage, etc. were all documented chance seedlings that were found in a wild or semi-wild state, in what is assumed in most cases as a combonation of wild pollination and dropped fruit. Granted, sometimes outside of the fence or in the bush around a citrus plantation, but I would call that "out of humanities hands" because nobody was setting out to produce these hybrids, they just happen.

Combine this with the fact that citrus fruits have a interesting botanical feature, nucellar embryony (nucellus cells can develop into apomictic embryos that are genetically identical to mother plant). Consequently, somatic embryos grow much more vigorously than the zygotic embryos in seeds such that seedlings are essentially clones of the maternal parent. This has made it so that typical plant breeding programs don't really apply, and only recently have been taken up. To make a large plantation of oranges, you just need to collect orange seeds from plants and put them in the soil, they will pretty much be garenteed to be genetically the same. This could be done by a human, or a bird. Same thing.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:40 pm UTC

The point is we've been genetically engineering foods since before the bible existed. Want a better example ? Almonds. Wild almonds will kill you; a couple dozen contain a lethal dose of cyanide. Someone found a tree that wasn't bitter (poisonous ones are), and thus started growing the trees. Also useful to know for when someone brings up trace poisons in whatever scary product of the week; almonds contain trace amounts of cyanide, yet are considered "healthy". The dose makes the poison...

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:42 pm UTC

I have no problem with the conclusion that certain people are stupid for making various life-threatening decisions.

I do have a problem with the "ha, ha, serves them right" attitude I've occasionally observed here when bad things, as predicted, happen to these people.

Yes, they've been stupid. Yes, they could have avoided these misfortunes. No, I still don't think they "deserve" such calamities, any more than I think people who engage in unsafe sex "deserve" venereal diseases.

[Edited to say: It's quite possible that people are just joking, and I'm too literal to see the humor. Never mind. Carry on.]
Last edited by ObsessoMom on Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:50 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:49 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:I do have a problem with the "ha, ha, serves them right" attitude I've occasionally observed here when bad things, as predicted, happen to these people.

Yes, they've been stupid. Yes, they could have avoided these misfortunes. No, I still don't think they "deserve" such calamities, any more than I think people who engage in unsafe sex "deserve" venereal diseases.


Why DO people deserve things, if not in return for their own actions?

Sure, when an antivaxxer puts their children at risk, we are unhappy, but when someone's stupidity hurts only themselves, well, my sympathy calls in sick.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:51 pm UTC

I would agree, but when I went to the store, the fuck department was out of stock so I can't give one. If your stupidity causes your own suffering, good. I'll care about your kids who themselves did nothing to deserve it except by being squeezed out of the wrong vagina. But not you.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:13 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
ObsessoMom wrote:I do have a problem with the "ha, ha, serves them right" attitude I've occasionally observed here when bad things, as predicted, happen to these people.

Yes, they've been stupid. Yes, they could have avoided these misfortunes. No, I still don't think they "deserve" such calamities, any more than I think people who engage in unsafe sex "deserve" venereal diseases.


Why DO people deserve things, if not in return for their own actions?

Sure, when an antivaxxer puts their children at risk, we are unhappy, but when someone's stupidity hurts only themselves, well, my sympathy calls in sick.
I'd agree with this, though it's a mixed bag, because while I want to thump the parents on the head and shout at them, even tell them that their suffering is theirs to bear, the issue is it's typically children that are suffering for it.

I don't harbor any illusions that parenting is an easy thing to do, and that parents make tons of honest mistakes along the way. But if a parent rushes a bleeding child into the OR because they were playing catch in the backyard and the kid took a ball to the face, my instinct would be to comfort the parent and the child. If a parent rushes a dying child into the OR because the kid was bitten numerous times during some snake handling pentecostal ritual, my instinct is to separate the two and call the authorities.

Admittedly, some of this is a line I've drawn based on my own morality and outlook. I'm comfortable admitting that, mostly because I feel my worldview is both formed, supported, and occasionally changed by data/studies. I think with deciding where to draw the line, it's important to bias yourself towards evidence as much as possible, so your line isn't arbitrary. Yes, a non arbitrary line for important matters is better than an arbitrary one, and I feel comfortable self-righteous in at least this.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:24 pm UTC

Apropos of nothing, lots of folks refuse to support lung cancer research, because they are so worried that an ounce of unmerited sympathy or comfort might be going to smokers...i.e., people whose own stupidity makes them DESERVE TO DIE! This despite the fact that many people who suffer from lung cancer are lifelong nonsmokers. As a result, lung cancer receives the least research funding of any form of cancer.

Because justice! Screw mercy.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:36 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Apropos of nothing, lots of folks refuse to support lung cancer research, because they are so worried that an ounce of unmerited sympathy or comfort might be going to smokers...i.e., people whose own stupidity makes them DESERVE TO DIE! This despite the fact that many people who suffer from lung cancer are lifelong nonsmokers. As a result, lung cancer receives the least research funding of any form of cancer.
First of all, I am 99.99% sure that statistic is utter nonsense. Second, the analogous situation here would be if we were spitefully against other epidemiology and immune system research because it might improve health outcomes for anti-vaxxers who we think deserve only bad things.

(So yeah, apropos of nothing, except that if you truly believed that yourself you probably wouldn't have posted it in the first place.)
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:36 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Apropos of nothing, lots of folks refuse to support lung cancer research, because they are so worried that an ounce of unmerited sympathy or comfort might be going to smokers...i.e., people whose own stupidity makes them DESERVE TO DIE! This despite the fact that many people who suffer from lung cancer are lifelong nonsmokers. As a result, lung cancer receives the least research funding of any form of cancer.

Because justice! Screw mercy.
About 5 years ago I spent some time with my grandmother in a hospital as she was dying of emphysema. I'm not sure where you got the idea that lung cancer research isn't moving forward or that there's a bias against it, but I assure you, it is, and there isn't.

As to the which 'cancer gets least funding', lung cancer is not on the bottom of the list.
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby speising » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:45 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
ObsessoMom wrote:Apropos of nothing, lots of folks refuse to support lung cancer research, because they are so worried that an ounce of unmerited sympathy or comfort might be going to smokers...i.e., people whose own stupidity makes them DESERVE TO DIE! This despite the fact that many people who suffer from lung cancer are lifelong nonsmokers. As a result, lung cancer receives the least research funding of any form of cancer.

Because justice! Screw mercy.
About 5 years ago I spent some time with my grandmother in a hospital as she was dying of emphysema. I'm not sure where you got the idea that lung cancer research isn't moving forward or that there's a bias against it, but I assure you, it is, and there isn't.

As to the which 'cancer gets least funding', lung cancer is not on the bottom of the list.

what if you weigh those funding figures by incidence or mortality?

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby morriswalters » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:09 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:If a parent rushes a dying child into the OR because the kid was bitten numerous times during some snake handling pentecostal ritual, my instinct is to separate the two and call the authorities.
So would the Doctor since snake handling is illegal, even in the backward state I live in. Being an antivaxxer is not. Stupid perhaps, but not illegal.
ObsessoMom wrote:I do have a problem with the "ha, ha, serves them right" attitude I've occasionally observed here when bad things, as predicted, happen to these people.
If the parents are suffering for their position on this, then it is because their child is. Anyone who feels superior because of that is an asshat. And unless their child dies or gets one of the dangerous complicatins, I suspect the only thing the parents will feel is relief that their child is now immune(as almost anybody in the household will be, as communicable as measles is). A stupid way to immunize your family. According to this 10 percent of the population has some qualms.
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We live in the internet age. Read something on the internet an become an instant expert. And since idiots can write as well or better than experts, you have a problem where for any given issue, you have differences in opinion not based on fact. Fix existing law, if you want to fix the problem. If Mississippi(99%) can do it, anybody can.

Edit
Her correlation may be spurious but she appears to be right about funding. Of course depending on who you ask. According to this.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:54 am UTC

I apologize for the digression about lung cancer, but it didn't seem any farther off-topic than the discussion of oranges (which I also found interesting). Anyway, spoilered for off-topic:

Spoiler:
I'm sorry I didn't spell out my correlation, which was simply this:

Victim-blaming is counterproductive in both situations. Victim-blaming makes anti-vaxxers close their minds even more tightly against the facts society needs them to hear. Victim-blaming also contributes to a social environment in which research into the type of cancer that kills the greatest number of people is left very disproportionately underfunded.

I did not provide citations for the latter contention because I assumed that the woeful underfunding of lung cancer, due to the moral condemnation attached to it, was common knowledge. I stand corrected. From an NBC News article dated November 15, 2014:

Lung cancer is the top cancer killer of women, and some medical experts say that they are seeing more patients in their 20s and 30s, many of them nonsmokers. But because lung cancer carries the stigma of smoking, experts say it is often overlooked in non-smoking patients — and doesn’t get the kind of funding or support given to breast cancer and other big killers.

[snip]

The disease takes more lives than breast, prostate, colon, and pancreatic cancers combined, and its survival rate is only 16 percent. Besides smoking, exposure to second-hand smoke, asbestos, radon or having a family history can put a woman at risk.

Doctors and and their patients say it’s the stigma associated with smoking that is hurting them most, impeding research and compromising good patient care.

According to the Washington, D.C.-based Lung Cancer Alliance, for every person who dies of breast cancer, $26,000 is spent on research funds, yet less than $1,500 is allocated for those who die of lung cancer.

[snip]

“The statistics on lung cancer are so staggering and so many young, non-smoking individuals are dying from this disease and no one is really talking about it,” Densen said.

“If you factor in private donations, the funding gap widens incredibly,” she said. “Susan G. Komen alone raised $428 million in 2012; whereas the largest lung cancer groups bring in about $3 to $4 million a year.”

Full article here: http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cancer/lu ... ma-n246441


Izzawlgood, I appreciate your taking the trouble to find that data, since I failed to support my contention with any outside sources whatsoever. I don't think your table invalidates my main point, which was that lung cancer research is drastically underfunded (although not he worst-funded, it's still the third-worst of the nineteen types listed in the table you found...which is pretty darned abysmal for the cancer that kills the most men and the most women, wouldn't you say?).

Thanks also to morriswalters for finding that very informative data sheet, re-linked here if anyone missed it above, and to speising for suggesting that one consider whether the funding received is appropriate, considering the incidence and mortality numbers. I must admit that I'd been relying on tables like those in morriswalters's data sheet, which divided research funding by deaths per year, but which did not present all types of cancers. (Lung cancer advocacy groups don't exactly have a vested interest in showing all the other poorly-funded cancers, such as pancreatic.)

Regardless of whether lung cancer is the worst-funded of nineteen types of cancer or only the third-worst of nineteen, some of you may still feel that my analogy (about victim-blaming being counterproductive for medical problem-solving) is way too much of a stretch. It hurts my vanity a bit if you don't find my analogy pertinent or persuasive...sniff, sniff...but of course you have a perfect right to feel that way, and to say so vociferously. I'm more interested in what's right than who's right, so I don't mind being the loser in an argument that helps draw attention to better data than I had before. Thanks again to those who found data to help evaluate and/or challenge my unsupported contentions.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby addams » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:51 am UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:I have no problem with the conclusion that certain people are stupid for making various life-threatening decisions.

I do have a problem with the "ha, ha, serves them right" attitude I've occasionally observed here when bad things, as predicted, happen to these people.

Yes, they've been stupid. Yes, they could have avoided these misfortunes. No, I still don't think they "deserve" such calamities, any more than I think people who engage in unsafe sex "deserve" venereal diseases.

[Edited to say: It's quite possible that people are just joking, and I'm too literal to see the humor. Never mind. Carry on.]

Your post address what I think is an important Fact of being Human.
How Dare our people be so Judgmental??

Yes. Stupid things happen to Stupid People.
Stupid shit happens to Smart People, too.

If we try real hard we can dust off our collective Compassion.
We will All be Happier for it.

The death of a Negligently Ignorant parent's child is painful for that parent. Period.
That Give a Fuck Store must be restocked from within.

How about when you show up all fucking Ugly and Old?
What?? Too Stupid and Selfish to die of something sympathetic?

You might think Ugly and Old is Sympathetic.
You are not going to be guiding that Fashion.

ObsessoMom; I think, I agree with you.
Suffering people are for us to comfort.

The people without Give-a-Fucks will be AssHoles, as usual.
We have to attempt to be good to Them, too. Life's Hard.

I've seen the Anti-Vacer Mom.
Her Mom was an Anti-Vacer, too.

She is Soo frightened for herself, her home and her family.
The world is full of corse, Fuckless Jerks. Many Violent.

The TV is full of violence, fear and ugliness.
The schools can't protect and teach her children.

And; Her husbands job may be lost to Outsiders.
She is young.

Yet; She seems to be missing the Internet Web Gene.
She looks at her mother's, mother's world longingly.

She loves her family.
She wants all good things for them.

How can The People of the US be so Profoundly Undereducated?

This is a choice we made one by one.
You can turn the TV off at any Time.

In your Freedom you can Not insist anything on that Fucker be True!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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EMTP
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby EMTP » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:38 pm UTC

speising wrote:what if you weigh those funding figures by incidence or mortality?


Still no:
Cancer Type (2011, 2012, 2013 Spending (millions))

Lung $296.8 $314.6 $285.9

Prostate 288.3 265.1 255.6
Breast 625.1 602.7 559.2
Colorectal 265.1 256.3 238.3
Bladder 20.6 23.4 20.3
Melanoma 115.6 121.2 122.5
Non-Hodgkin
Lymphoma 126.4 119.5 113.7
Kidney 46.2 49.0 45.6
Thyroid 16.2 16.5 19.6
Endometrial
(Uterine) 15.9 19.1 17.8


http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/fact ... ch-funding

Lung cancer gets more federal research dollars than any other form of cancer.

It's also disingenuous to claim that "many" of the people who get lung cancer are "lifelong nonsmokers." 85% of lung cancer patients smoked. 15% is not "many." The word you are searching for there is "few."

PS: If anyone knows how to create a good chart on these fora, could you PM me?
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby DaBigCheez » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:44 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Izzawlgood, I appreciate your taking the trouble to find that data, since I failed to support my contention with any outside sources whatsoever. I don't think your table invalidates my main point, which was that lung cancer research is drastically underfunded (although not he worst-funded, it's still the third-worst of the nineteen types listed in the table you found...which is pretty darned abysmal for the cancer that kills the most men and the most women, wouldn't you say?).


Note that that table's not sorted by the funding column, but (by the look of it) by the 5-year survival rate. Lung cancer is the third-worst in terms of 5-year survival rate, and receives the sixth-most funding (from that agency) of the nineteen cancer types listed. At least within this context, it does still appear to receive substantially less than other types of similar incidence rates and much lower mortality rates, however.
existential_elevator wrote:It's like a jigsaw puzzle of Hitler pissing on Mother Theresa. No individual piece is offensive, but together...

If you think hot women have it easy because everyone wants to have sex at them, you're both wrong and also the reason you're wrong.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby addams » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:13 pm UTC

What?
Is this Man's way of saying, "It rather die of Measles at Three in my mother's arms than die of medically unmanaged adult cancer in the US?"
That's not the way things work.

The child weakened by childhood disease is ....

What are you arguing?
Survival of the fittest?

ok. That's a Question I had not considered, before.
Do Anti-Vaccers want Chemo for Childhood cancers?

Those are two very different Things!
Immunizations are an action on the body of a Healthy Child.

Chemo is treatment for an ill child.
Two very different things in the eyes of a parent.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:24 am UTC

Still spoilered for off-topic:

Spoiler:
Oh, yikes. To my very great embarrassment, I badly misread the chart that Izawwlgood cited, which is, indeed, ranked by survival rates rather than by funding. Thanks for setting me straight, DaBigCheese.

If ordered by research funding, as I've done below, lung cancer ranks sixth out of the nineteen types of cancer funded by the National Cancer Research Institute (UK)... which, as Izawwlgood pointed out, is definitely not worst-funded status.

2011 NCRI funding, in millions of British pounds:

Breast 42.0
Leukaemia 32.5
Bowel 23.4
Prostate 17.0
Ovary 13.3
Lung 11.6
Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma 7.4
Brain with CNS 7.1
Oesophagus 6.5
Malignant Melanoma 5.6
Pancreas 5.2
Multiple Myeloma 5.0
Kidney 4.0
Cervix 3.8
Uterus 3.7
Bladder 2.9
Stomach 2.3
Liver 1.8
Larynx 1.6


In my defense, these figures (including the incidence and mortality figures) are only for the UK, where lung cancer seems to be less prevalent than breast cancer. That is FAR from the case in the US, as morriswalters's chart shows rather dramatically.

It's easy to misread charts. For example:

EMTP wrote:Lung cancer gets more federal research dollars than any other form of cancer.


The above statement followed the quotation of a chart that said, among other things,

Cancer Type (2011, 2012, 2013 Spending (millions))
Lung $296.8 $314.6 $285.9
Breast 625.1 602.7 559.2


Oops. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. And I admit that my misreading of Izawwlgood's chart was a far bigger blunder than this, but I thought I'd mention it, as long as we're all trying to get closer to the truth.

EMPT wrote:It's also disingenuous to claim that "many" of the people who get lung cancer are "lifelong nonsmokers." 85% of lung cancer patients smoked. 15% is not "many." The word you are searching for there is "few."


I think we two will just have to just agree to disagree that a small percentage of a huge number is not "many people". According to the American Lung Association, "An estimated 158,040 Americans are expected to die from lung cancer in 2015," and 15% of that figure is 23,706 people. That figure sure looks like "many people" to me.

And I am increasingly regretting having tried to make an analogy that didn't resonate with anyone else but me.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:38 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Apropos of nothing, lots of folks refuse to support lung cancer research, because they are so worried that an ounce of unmerited sympathy or comfort might be going to smokers...i.e., people whose own stupidity makes them DESERVE TO DIE! This despite the fact that many people who suffer from lung cancer are lifelong nonsmokers. As a result, lung cancer receives the least research funding of any form of cancer.

Because justice! Screw mercy.


I have not encountered this view before. Is there further data on it?

Note that I've had a grandparent die of lung cancer(he didn't smoke), and this literally never came up. I note that comparing to breast cancer is a favorite tactic of anyone who wants more money for their pet cause. Not being equal to them in funding doesn't mean society hates you. It just means your cause doesn't have a PR machine of the same scale and caliber.

But yes, avoiding smoking is good...but there's the addictive nature, as well. Surely someone who tries to quit repeatedly, and dies of lung cancer in part due to not being able to, there's a degree of tragedy there. Some loss of agency, though of course not complete. Things like snake handling do not have such mitigating factors, and yes, one should react with alarm to such things.

There is this fixation on not victim blaming. The issue here is the name. Just because you are the victim does not mean you are automatically not at fault. Self-victimization is a thing. In cases where the victim and the perpetrator are different people, yes, obviously you should blame the perpetrator, not the victim. You should ALWAYS blame the perpetrator. Sometimes, this blame is shared or diluted. It would be perfectly reasonable to put, say, some blame on cigarette companies behavior for creating the problem, would it not? And also some on the smoker.

Of course, this whole connection of blame to fixing the problem is also undesirable. Finding someone to blame is not a substitute for finding a fix. It is a moral judgement, not a solution.

Anyway, let's drag this back on topic. Ideally, it's kind of satisfying when your solution aligns neatly with moral judgements. Making a vandal clean up the thing he vandalized seems appropriate because of this. You're fixing the problem while also making the person incurring the costs pay them(which will hopefully induce them to avoid this in the future). Thus the various ideas to assess anti-vaxxers for the resulting costs incurred in some way.

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sardia
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby sardia » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:23 pm UTC

So we make them serve community service helping others get vaccinated? Sounds good. Just gotta update all their shots beforehand.

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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:31 pm UTC

sardia wrote:So we make them serve community service helping others get vaccinated? Sounds good. Just gotta update all their shots beforehand.


Or maybe care for the sick.

Vaccination optional.

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BlackSails
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby BlackSails » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:38 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote:So we make them serve community service helping others get vaccinated? Sounds good. Just gotta update all their shots beforehand.


Or maybe care for the sick.

Vaccination optional.


Why would you want unvaccinated people in contact with the elderly and people with compromised immune systems?

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sardia
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Re: US measles outbreak as fewer parents vaccinate

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:53 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote:So we make them serve community service helping others get vaccinated? Sounds good. Just gotta update all their shots beforehand.


Or maybe care for the sick.

Vaccination optional.


Why would you want unvaccinated people in contact with the elderly and people with compromised immune systems?

Obviously, we jab them full of needles beforehand.


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