Homeworld

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Izawwlgood
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Re: Homeworld

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:26 pm UTC

Wow, that looks awesome.
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Re: Homeworld

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:52 pm UTC

I loved this game so much, I haven't been able to find another game that is similar and of the same quality. I actually don't think either of the sequels were as good as the original.
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Re: Homeworld

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:14 pm UTC

My two questions: "Why no Cataclysm?" and "Does it include any mechanical changes, or is it purely presentation?"

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Re: Homeworld

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:18 am UTC

Rights, I assume. Relic developed and Sierra published 1 & 2. Barking Dog Studio (became Rockstar Vancouver, now completely defunct) developed and Sierra published Cataclysm.

So, I'm assuming Rockstar isn't playing ball.

No idea about your second question.
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Re: Homeworld

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:06 am UTC

Pity, because it's really "free money" for them. Just ask for 25 cents per HD copy sold or something, sell 400,000 units and walk away with a free $100k. Or is Sierra demanding that they have to pay to do the HD?

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Re: Homeworld

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:48 am UTC

Well, like I said, Barking Dog is the original developer. I have no idea what sort of contracts were signed between them, Relic, and Sierra. It could be that figuring out involves getting 15 different people to agree and five of them hate six of the others (and each other) for various reasons and sabotaged the discussions, creating situations where agreement is impossible.
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Re: Homeworld

Postby Will » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:55 am UTC

It's also perfectly likely that in all the Barking Dog becoming Rockstar Vancouver becoming not-a-studio-anymore that paperwork was lost to the void and nobody is even sure who needs to talk to who in order to make it happen. I know a similar thing happened with NOLF, nobody can figure out who owns the rights, which is why you don't see it on GOG
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Re: Homeworld

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:51 am UTC

I think there should be some sort of mechanism where if no one can claim the copyright, it becomes quasi-public domain. If later on someone is able to prove they own the rights, a quasi-contract is automatically created unless the parties decide to settle out of court.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:30 pm UTC

I've never been able to find a definitive source, but most of the responses to questions on Steam about Cataclysm say it's not included because the source code for the game no longer exists.
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Re: Homeworld

Postby Drumheller769 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:47 pm UTC

That's ok, twas a silly game!
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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:47 am UTC

HW1 is undoubtedly going to be different in the remastered HW2 engine. Even if they implement every mechanical difference, it's never going to be quite the same. What's weird is how they're going to be combining HW1 and HW2 for the multiplayer (as to not split the playerbase). That's the only thing I'm mildly worried about.
Spambot5546 wrote:I've never been able to find a definitive source, but most of the responses to questions on Steam about Cataclysm say it's not included because the source code for the game no longer exists.

Losing the source makes a lot more sense to me than licensing. I'm fairly certain THQ owned the full license with no ulterior contract liabilities, which they then auctioned off in 2013 after their bankruptcy. A lot of Gearbox's remastering process seems to be tracking down the original developers. Things like getting the uncompressed audio from one of the guys who happened to have it buried in his basement. I wouldn't be too surprised if the people who worked on Cataclysm were out of contact or have lost the sources over the years. It has had a very bumpy ride.

The main hole in that theory is that they're also releasing the "classic" versions of the games, so why not include Cataclysm? I suspect they're also updating the renderer to support widescreen and stuff even for those versions, which would require the source to do properly. It might have been that Cataclysm wouldn't have met their standard for quality, but we'll see. Maybe they'll even officially say why at some point.

It looks like they're putting a lot of love and care into this. A lot of HD re-releases lately are quite lazy updates with their own host of issues (Age of Mythology), or miss the point and end up making something else (Abe's Oddysee). This is looking to be about as good as it gets for a remaster. Not underdoing it like Microsoft, not overdoing it like George Lucas. They could have easily added a bunch of modern specular effects to the ships to ruin the tone. Even modding support... for a remaster. That's really going the extra mile.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:14 am UTC

I finished the HW1RM campaign. There are a lot of mechanical changes. Fuel is removed, a lot of ships don't have the swivel turrets like they used to, formations and tactics are like HW2. To me, it overall felt more like HW2 than HW1. HW1.7 or something. It's to be expected. Very pretty though, that HD Hiigara backdrop...

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Spambot5546 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:39 pm UTC

From everything I've read they used HW2 mechanics universally across both games. I think to allow for multiplayer across both games.

Other complaints I've seen online include formations no longer mattering, the removal of the aggressive/defensive/neutral option, and some seriously half assed AI. I still haven't bought it, myself.
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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:54 pm UTC

You're right that they're both essentially the same. It's as I said here last month, "HW1 is undoubtedly going to be different in the remastered HW2 engine." People who don't understand this went into it expecting something different, and expectations are the root of all disappointment. A lot of the complaints I see note the obvious and true problems (formations), and then on the back end throw in some ridiculous stuff to pad out their complaint, like AI or something else. Because a bigger list adds to the credibility of the complaint, rather than tarnishing the whole thing by adding several dubious points, or something.

If you want the full HW1 experience, jaggies and all, you have the only digital copy available bundled in. I'm replaying HW1 just to see the differences from HW1RM. I might update my thoughts on that if people are interested, but I gave the tldr in the previous post.

I've played multiplayer, all four races from the two games are available. There's only a server browser, no ranking or match making, and while it's not too difficult to find a game it's not exactly bustling with activity. There's usually not much more than about 4 open games at any given time (note: regional), often password protected (and you can't tell until you try to join). Gearbox is quite adamant that it's a beta though, the multiplayer UI options say beta on them, they have a dialogue box that pops up whenever you select multiplayer telling you its beta, and you even have to type in "beta" as sort of a CAPTCHA to complete the sign up process. They couldn't be any more guarded, and I'm unsure how I feel about that. Connections are spotty, I've had crashes and disconnects ruin about half of my games.

In terms of balance, there's at least one game breaking bug that I'm aware of, which I've also had the displeasure of experiencing. The HW1 races are overall inferior to the HW2 races from a competitive standpoint presuming you know how the exploit the strategic advantages. You probably shouldn't mix HW1 with HW2 races unless it's a casual game. I don't think they can fix that, or at least that they won't.

I'll see if I can't record some matches.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Yubtzock » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:09 am UTC

I've got it and I'm enjoying it quite a bit. Yeah there are bugs but (at least for me) they are non-essential enough. I kinda tend to pause a lot and micro ships around so formations never felt really important to me in hw1 unless I wanted to make The Imposing Wall of Ion Destruction or The Deadly Sphere of Ion Incineration or... you know where I'm going with it.

The balance however is kinda a problem.
In campaign some missions seem to have improved and are more dynamic and challenging but those are few and far between. The rest is just waaay too easy. (at least for me with my excessive pausing).
Unless I try to have a perfect run with no ships dying. Then it's a nightmare cause it's just impossible with HW2 balance in place. Frigates die without warning or actually - before the warning even finishes its battle chatter line, and fighters pop like soap bubbles - silently and en masse.

Multiplayer is balance mess as well with hw1 < hw2 race-wise although good early game with intense harass and correct settings (med starting resources, high harvesting) gives hw1 an edge. The fact that you can pump 4 units at once early on helps ramp up the harvesting and get second carrier while creating units to harass the enemy. If you let the game go on to late game without pressure though - you are doomed. If you fail with early game you are doomed as well - especially if hw2 races go with corvets vs you as you have no good anti-corv until frigates and you don't want frigates if you plan on early game pressure -> into capital class finisher. Well... sometimes you do if your opponent makes the mistake of overextending on anti-fighter corvetes. Which actually brought me my first MP win and that was the only win I've got with an hw1 race (although technically some of the other games were not "lost" - I was able to keep an early advantage and then... game stopped).
Spoiler:
Image

This whole hw1<hw2 thing pisses me mostly because I'm absolutely adoring the new Taiidan emperor Mothership FATSHIP voice.

Last but not least - the graphical update is really neat and full of surprises. Like the new Gardens or missile corvette's custom missiles:
Spoiler:
Image

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:29 am UTC

I only kind of disagree with what you said about the campaign. I replay the HW series almost every year, it has always been easy. Maybe a little disappointing but I don't think it has ever been an issue to the experience. Otherwise I agree with everything. I never used formations too often either. It messes with micro potential.

The only multiplayer game I've sort of legitimately lost was when a Taiidan mothership hyperspaced on top of my forward carrier in the midst of a very mixed and ongoing battle. That thing was menacing as all hell, looming slightly overhead as I was just barely losing the battle. Then... crash. I haven't played Taiidan too much myself. I've always been a Vaygr. What can I say, I love missiles. "Bring our might to bear." But if you do play Taiidan, hyperspace slightly above the common z axis of a battle. That is one serious psychological attack.

Speaking of Taiidan, it seems the game doesn't like it when you subtarget the flagship's engines. It's like the engine exists inside the center of the model and all the ordered ships slam against it and do dolphin dives against the hull. I guess it's not like the thing is necessarily going anywhere anyway.

But yeah, HW2 races have huge lategame potential over HW1. If you can do a decent amount of damage as a HW1 race versus a HW2 race in the early game, then you have a chance. When the destroyers and, worse, battlecruisers hit the field, you're doomed. It reminds me of Company Of Heroes 2 balance, or Starcraft 2 during the broodlord infestor era versus Terran. A little unfortunate.

There's nothing quite like Homeworld. I have tried to play multiplayer several times in the past, and always had several troubles, not least of all that it is (was) effectively a dead game. As invested as I am for the multiplayer to have more features and to leave beta, I'm aware that there are no magical solutions and that declaring something "beta" is generally used as a PR manipulation tactic to avoid criticism. It's a empty moniker to placate the consumer that their dreams will indeed come true one day, except probably not those dreams, you see. Regardless, I concur that I still quite enjoy it despite whatever issues. The issues that this game faces are very different from the ones I'm normally exposed to in gaming. They're very technical and wholly unimportant, I feel, apart from the connection issues of course.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:11 am UTC

Here's a 1v1 where I got rushed from a Korean Homeworld veteran. Vaygr vs Taiidan

Summary: He was building a strikecraft force and keeping it docked, so it was hidden from my scout. As soon as he killed my scout he launched his attack, but I sent out a probe and narrowly caught the big move out. I researched EMP and frantically built fighters. I held the attack fairly easily, but he doubled down, hyperspacing across the map to continue the aggression. He switched into frigates and gravity well generators which completely shut down my strikecraft. I was defenseless as he pushed me off my resource nodes. My last hopes were on my nearly completed destroyer. I used my then useless resource collectors for some clutch repairs while he amassed a large force of assault and ion frigates. My second destroyer came out and we clashed, but the repairs held strong and he was bleeding frigates faster than he could build them. There was no way he was going to break through and no possible plan b, so he surrendered.


-----

I finished HW1 classic right after doing HW1 remaster. The few things that classic does right is overpowered by all of the engine improvements of the remaster I feel. The only formations I really used was wall and sphere, and even then I didn't really see the purpose and would often go formationless. I don't see how a group of fighters in a claw formation doing burst damage is more useful than having them separate and doing damage over time, unless the volley exactly one shots the enemy ships. The more mixed and staggered my ships are the easier they are to micro back for repairs and things. They always move at full speed rather than at the speed of the slowest ship.

I've heard several say that the last mission in RM isn't as "powerful" as classic. I can't say I noticed a difference. Perhaps some nostalgia at play.

Also, HW1 classic crashed twice and my capital ship door on my mothership got stuck open, which completely ate the resources of a destroyer I was building and denied me a lot of salvage. I feel like a lot of people paint the original as a perfect game when it's really not. You can love it and see its flaws.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:00 pm UTC

NEW HOMEWORLD GAME

Jan 20, 2016

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:08 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:NEW HOMEWORLD GAME

Jan 20, 2016

Looks neat, but some odd design choices. Planes that seem to stay pretty low. Not sure why they abandoned the 'In Space' thing Homeworld does so well.
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Re: Homeworld

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:12 am UTC

So apparently, it's set 100 years prior to Homeworld 1. One of the clans stumbles across the Kar Toba or whatever the name was. This causes everyone to fight over it, until eventually uniting to build the Bananaship.

Anyway, I should get around to playing that mod that basically created a prequel already, where the Hiigarans were actually the villains of the galaxy, and were barely defeated and exiled by the Taiidan to save all the other species. Then they made Homeworld II and this was more or less canon.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:18 am UTC

That mod doesn't work since it hasn't been updated with the patches, and a lot of the community and modding interest has died off. It has been in a perpetual "waiting for the next patch to fix things" state. You can just select the option in classic though.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Sat May 21, 2016 10:08 pm UTC

There's finally some information on the patch everyone has been waiting on. It seems they're withholding releasing it until they can arrange this something to draw attention to the game again. They want it to hit with a bang.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Yubtzock » Sun May 22, 2016 2:52 pm UTC

Yes, I am interested and attentive :) . Patch, please.
Seriously though - I'm really happy they haven't forgotten. All the changes seem to be the most crucial ones that people have been waiting for.

Good thing they're investing into this IP for the long term. HW has well established name and ingame world for some spin-offs as well (as shown by Deserts of Kharak) even if they were to go away from the RTS form a bit. I wouldn't mind Mass Effect-like game with RTS-y combat in place of the third person shooter from ME. Or a mix of both. Sure people might not want a departure from the form and it might just be that I wouldn't mind another ME-like game ;]
Or rather - more in-depth exploration of HW lore & stories in similar form.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Sun May 22, 2016 4:28 pm UTC

Having an expansive galaxy to navigate yourself is the logical progression of the main theme of the series. There's a few other titles that are trying to do that but they seem to be finding it very difficult to pull off. For instance you have Nomad Fleet (made by one person I think, mind), where you can select where to take your fleet next, but it's all very half baked. That sort of idea needs a lot of money thrown at it, and I don't think Homeworld is that strong of an IP. It's very strong for the size of its following but it's a tenth of the size that it needs to be to make something of ME's scale financially viable.

I would like to know how successful DoK ended up being, but I have a hunch that it didn't do that well. I think Remastered made considerably more profit, which is partly why they bundled it with DoK.

I feel like if this patch is really good and everything they're promising, what happens from there will tell you how strong the IP is. If their sales spike and the community is rejuvenated, then it's still healthy. If their sales don't spike because they have already tapped out their entire market, and the community fails to rise from the ashes for some reason...

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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:46 am UTC

Patch is out, and the game is 50% off for the next few days. It's good. I just played a 1v1 where my opponent opened with a lot of interceptors, and I build scouts. Since it has actual ballistics now, the scouts were almost untouchable to the interceptors in formation. They probably should have switched to evasive too, which breaks hw2 formation.

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Re: Homeworld

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:44 pm UTC

Is it just me or does Gearbox have the most insanely hamfisted marketing department in the games industry? I've seen single developer indie games far better marketed than Gearbox' releases. This should be much bigger news than it is.
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Re: Homeworld

Postby Koa » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:54 am UTC

Yeah, I was clearly expecting more. And Battleborn had the same problem. I'm guessing it has something to do with Randy Pitchford.

Also, it turned out that the big deal that was holding back the release of the patch was the GOG release.


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