Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

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Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Thesh » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:21 pm UTC

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-34815972

100 dead in concert hall, plus dozens more killed in separate attacks.
Last edited by Thesh on Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:41 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dozens dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby sardia » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:08 pm UTC

This is pretty crazy, I wonder if they plan to do the same as the Kenyan mall attacks; broadcast their crap on social media as they shoot.

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Re: Dozens dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Cradarc » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:03 am UTC

The state of the world saddens me. I don't know what else to say. It was no accident. It was no misunderstanding. It was the act of a few people who deliberately sought to inflict irreversible harm on many others.
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Re: Dozens dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Thesh » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:24 am UTC

BBC is now reporting (updated link in OP) 100 people dead in the concert hall.
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Re: Dozens dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby HES » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:49 am UTC

Thesh wrote:BBC is now reporting (updated link in OP) 100 people dead in the concert hall.

It's sounding like 100 dead, but 100+ released from that siege.

I can't afford to stay up and follow this. Hopefully there will be a clearer picture in the morning.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Wonderbolt » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:55 am UTC

Estimates are more along the lines of 140 dead, possibly more, at this point.

I just... I'm not going to try to write more. I just want to cry. Maybe I'll be able to articulate my thoughts later.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:01 am UTC

Now at 160.

What was playing at the concert hall? Was it related, somehow, or were the murderers just after numbers? Who has claimed responsibility? So many questions and more. :(

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby DR6 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:04 am UTC

Does anyone know what's up with the fire in Calais? Some sources say that it's a hoax and the photos are from a fire from 2Nov, but there's a polish reporter claiming that it's there and it's happening.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Thesh » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:30 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Now at 160.

What was playing at the concert hall? Was it related, somehow, or were the murderers just after numbers? Who has claimed responsibility? So many questions and more. :(

A band from California called "Eagles of Death Metal."
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Wonderbolt » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:33 am UTC

They're supposedly a rock band. Unlikely to be related, given the number of attacks in different locations (6, some news outlets report as many as 7). Was just the most bloody, and looks like they were simply going for maximum casualties everywhere. It's messed up.

Edit: The fact that most people at the stadium seem to be alright is actually a sign that it could've been even worse.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:17 am UTC

BBC confirmed the band survived. At their next concert, I hope they don't pause for a minute silence (or 1 second for every victim), but rather rock on as a 'mission' to the people who don't want to stop rocking.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Paul in Saudi » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:30 am UTC

Horrible news, horrible people on the internet saying horrible things about it.

(Did you see what Donald Trumps said?)

“Isn’t it interesting that the tragedy in Paris took place in one of the toughest gun control countries in the world?”

Newt said

Imagine a theater with 10 or 15 citizens with concealed carry permits. We live in an age when evil men have to be killed by good people

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Zamfir » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:37 am UTC

Please, don't make every topic about American politics.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Paul in Saudi » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:08 am UTC

I am truly sorry if I did. I am quite upset.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Angua » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:26 am UTC

Numbers now at 180 :( Sounds like they've all stopped. I seen anything about who was responsible, other than someone at the concert hall saying that one of the gunmen had said to one of the victims 'your President shouldn't have interfered in Syria'.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Mutex » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:10 am UTC

BBC is reporting 128 dead, 180 injured.

Possibly retaliation, a fire breaks out in a Calais migrant camp: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ce-6830330

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:30 pm UTC

Apparently IS have claimed responsibility and Hollande is calling it an act of war [BBC].
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:51 pm UTC

The potential of ISIS hiding among the refugees has been brought up a number of times in American politics, but I can imagine that European politics is similar. It is natural to think that the ISIS attacks came "from the refugees" (or at least that they were hiding among them when they crossed over into France). Politically, this brings up the question of the efficacy of France's refugee vetting program. I would imagine it to be pretty standard among the various European countries and applicable to US, Britain, Germany, and other countries that plan to take refugees while separating the terrorists out of the refugee stream.

Unlike a lot of hyperbole ("Terrorists want us to lose 4th Amendment rights".... uggghhh), I do believe that ISIS actually does want the Western World to stop taking in refugees, because it goes counter to their message of "Us vs Them". I personally believe that even in the wake of these attacks, we should be working towards taking in more refugees, but we must figure out how ISIS got into France. Therefore, despite these attacks, I think it sticks it to ISIS more if we can figure out how to take on more Syrian refugees and figure out how to be a more caring people to the refugee crisis. But there are now clear security concerns with such a stance.

This was a moderately large group, some people are estimating 24+ people were needed to coordinate an attack like this on France... including specialized knowledge such as a bomb maker, and at least eight attackers. Unlike "Lone Wolf" attacks, such a large group should have been caught by intelligence (Interpol or whatever). So this is also an intelligence failure, and demonstrates a blind-spot in the overall intelligence system. Or, it has demonstrated that there is an ISIS group that has learned to avoid the current intelligence system somehow.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby HES » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:30 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:we must figure out how ISIS got into France.

They don't need to "get in" if they can radicalise vulnerable citizens. At least one of the attackers here was French.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:36 am UTC

The Bataclan theatre was owned by Jews and was for years under constant death threats because they held pro-Israel events. So the terrorists didn't forget to target Jews this time around. Hooray, all is right with the world! Wait, no, not at all.

But anyway, for reasons I'm not sure of, the Paris attacks seem to be more horrific than the recent plane bombing in Egypt. I can't figure out why, when more people were killed in the bombing. Is it the "personal" nature of the gunmen actually shooting people that they see as opposed to simply planting a bomb and never having to see exactly who they murder? I don't know.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Wonderbolt » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:57 am UTC

I think it's about how it feels less targeted?

As in, when a plane gets bombed/shot down, or to name an example closer to home for France - the Charlie Hebdo shooting. It's a tragedy, but people assume that the perpetrators had a (bad) reason for attacking those targets.

Now when it's so much more obvious that the goal is just to get as many casualties as possible, that "you could be next" and there's nothing you can do about it because they don't care about specific targets, that's when people become genuinely scared. It's terrifying to know that there isn't really anything you can do - no matter how unrealistic those preparations would be anyway - to avoid being targeted and become the next victim. It's terrifying to know that your very existence in a western country is apparently enough for some people to want to kill you and the people you know, especially now that it's become obvious those people aren't kidding.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Shivahn » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:34 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The Bataclan theatre was owned by Jews and was for years under constant death threats because they held pro-Israel events. So the terrorists didn't forget to target Jews this time around. Hooray, all is right with the world! Wait, no, not at all.

But anyway, for reasons I'm not sure of, the Paris attacks seem to be more horrific than the recent plane bombing in Egypt. I can't figure out why, when more people were killed in the bombing. Is it the "personal" nature of the gunmen actually shooting people that they see as opposed to simply planting a bomb and never having to see exactly who they murder? I don't know.

I'm skeptical that the Bataclan was targetted because Jews rather than simply because it was a large, soft target.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:57 am UTC

Whenever there's a terrorist atttack with multiple targets, it almost always includes a Jewish one. Charlie Hebdo and a Jewish grocery store. Mumbai and a Chabad. There's a reason every Jewish temple has police protection...

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby dg61 » Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:40 am UTC

Wonderbolt wrote:I think it's about how it feels less targeted?

As in, when a plane gets bombed/shot down, or to name an example closer to home for France - the Charlie Hebdo shooting. It's a tragedy, but people assume that the perpetrators had a (bad) reason for attacking those targets.

Now when it's so much more obvious that the goal is just to get as many casualties as possible, that "you could be next" and there's nothing you can do about it because they don't care about specific targets, that's when people become genuinely scared. It's terrifying to know that there isn't really anything you can do - no matter how unrealistic those preparations would be anyway - to avoid being targeted and become the next victim. It's terrifying to know that your very existence in a western country is apparently enough for some people to want to kill you and the people you know, especially now that it's become obvious those people aren't kidding.


I suspect also that it is easier to carry out a bombing/other attack on a nightclub or someplace like that then a plane, especially after 9/11(presumably you need either a missile, or a bomb powerful enough to destroy/render inoperable and non-aerodynamic the plane that isn't going to be easily found). And of course there's less of they "you could be basically doing your normal, everyday shit and get killed" with a plane bombing since on average people fly on planes less often than they do other day-to-day things.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Fractal_Tangent » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:23 am UTC

I'd just like to say that in spite of this awful thing that's happened. On my FB wall (& I don't know how appropriate it is to generalize about it) there's been nothing but people condemning the attacks & reminding everyone that not every Muslim is to blame and that it's also not the refugee's fault either. It's really heartening to see this kind of response.

However, it might just be my little microcosm of friends who think this way.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Mutex » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:09 pm UTC

Fractal_Tangent wrote:I'd just like to say that in spite of this awful thing that's happened. On my FB wall (& I don't know how appropriate it is to generalize about it) there's been nothing but people condemning the attacks & reminding everyone that not every Muslim is to blame and that it's also not the refugee's fault either. It's really heartening to see this kind of response.

However, it might just be my little microcosm of friends who think this way.


Yeah, on my friends list I mostly just see people posting similar, but I also see some of them posting reactions to knee-jerk send-them-back posts they've seen on their walls. So apparently I've done a good job of clearing out the idiots on my list (without really consciously trying) but they're still out there.


EDIT: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-32169080

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby BeerBottle » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:53 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Whenever there's a terrorist atttack with multiple targets, it almost always includes a Jewish one. Charlie Hebdo and a Jewish grocery store. Mumbai and a Chabad. There's a reason every Jewish temple has police protection...
Well we have to go back to one day before the Paris attack to find a counter-example. 43 killed, over 200 injured by ISIS suicide bombers in two locations in one city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34795797

CorruptUser wrote:But anyway, for reasons I'm not sure of, the Paris attacks seem to be more horrific than the recent plane bombing in Egypt. I can't figure out why, when more people were killed in the bombing. Is it the "personal" nature of the gunmen actually shooting people that they see as opposed to simply planting a bomb and never having to see exactly who they murder? I don't know.
Being able to identify with the victims may play a part. In the plane crash the victims were Russians. Different language, culture, long standing animosity with western countries. Media has pushed the idea of Russians being bad for decades. The feeling may remain that they are not quite like us. The French victims are culturally very similar to UK/USA and have long-standing alliances, apart from that whole Freedom Fries thing you americans did while ago.

Likewise in the Beirut bombing I mentioned above, well the victims are the enemy du jour (muslims), so western media coverage is practically zero. Doesn't fit the narrative that muslims are perpetrators not victims. If it had happened in any major western city we would have wall to wall news coverage for a month followed by annual commemorations every November 12th, as we now will have with the Paris attacks with commemorations on the 13th. Not saying it isn't justified (I attended the 10 year London 7/7 commemorations earlier this year), but if you only get news from major outlets it's easy to see why you think all muslims are waging war on the west, rather than a few splinter group, e.g. ISIS attacking pretty much anything that moves.

ISIS needs to be stopped. Now. I don't see why we don't take their claim to statehood at face value. Say fine, you're a state, you attacked a NATO country, so NATO declares war on you.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Koa » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:35 pm UTC

Not so much the victims as the locations, I would think. If it were, somehow, Russian tourists who were killed in Paris at these benign locations then I think it would be mostly the same. The juxtaposition of the locations with mass civilian executions made it a threat to every western liberty. Apart from the plane there was also Lebanon. Violence in the middle east isn't anything special.

I don't blame Muslims, I blame Islam. New radicals will continue to emerge from the teachings in the Quran mixed with the destabilized middle east. These attacks are very organized and militant, unlike that of a lone psychopath. It's not just a few bad apples, it's in the soil. Islam needs to split itself to clearly draw a line between cultured Islam and that which generates these radicals.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Fractal_Tangent » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:43 pm UTC

This is the kind of thing I meant that I was happy I wasn't seeing on my wall.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby sardia » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:49 pm UTC

Koa wrote:Not so much the victims as the locations, I would think. If it were, somehow, Russian tourists who were killed in Paris at these benign locations then I think it would be mostly the same. The juxtaposition of the locations with mass civilian executions made it a threat to every western liberty. Apart from the plane there was also Lebanon. Violence in the middle east isn't anything special.

I don't blame Muslims, I blame Islam. New radicals will continue to emerge from the teachings in the Quran mixed with the destabilized middle east. These attacks are very organized and militant, unlike that of a lone psychopath. It's not just a few bad apples, it's in the soil. Islam needs to split itself to clearly draw a line between cultured Islam and that which generates these radicals.

If you're gonna blame radical elements that split off from the original teachings, why aren't you blaming Jesus for being a shitty prophet? A good prophet would have kept all his followers.

Also, manhunt for an unknown 8th suspect. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world ... .html?_r=0

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Shivahn » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:33 pm UTC

Islam is split pretty cleanly. As far as I know, most, if not all, attacks by Islamic radicals on civilians (especially in the West) are the result of Wahhabi and Salafi muslims.

If you wouldn't complain that Christianity is insufficiently demarcated for you to tell the difference between Catholics and baptists, it is kind of odd to complain about Islam in this manner.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:33 pm UTC

Shivahn wrote:Islam is split pretty cleanly. As far as I know, most, if not all, attacks by Islamic radicals on civilians (especially in the West) are the result of Wahhabi and Salafi muslims.

If you wouldn't complain that Christianity is insufficiently demarcated for you to tell the difference between Catholics and baptists, it is kind of odd to complain about Islam in this manner.


There have been plenty of Shiite terrorists.

BeerBottle wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Whenever there's a terrorist atttack with multiple targets, it almost always includes a Jewish one. Charlie Hebdo and a Jewish grocery store. Mumbai and a Chabad. There's a reason every Jewish temple has police protection...
Well we have to go back to one day before the Paris attack to find a counter-example. 43 killed, over 200 injured by ISIS suicide bombers in two locations in one city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34795797


How many Jews live in Lebanon? That's a stupid example and you should feel stupid.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby BeerBottle » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:00 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:How many Jews live in Lebanon? That's a stupid example and you should feel stupid.
You said terrorists almost always target Jews. I gave an example where terrorists attacked a city where not only did they not target Jews, but there are very few Jews anyway. To me that seems relevant.

But I think the point you are trying to make is that ISIS hates Jews. Well yes they do. The point I was making by citing the Beirut attack is that they also hate Muslims. And they hate Christians, Buddhists, atheists, everyone in fact. I think they are fairly equal opportunities with their hate. They burnt a muslim capitve to death on camera for god's sake. Not sure why you are trying to spin otherwise.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:12 pm UTC

You are missing the point entirely, and I think intentionally.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Vahir » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:17 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:How many Jews live in Lebanon? That's a stupid example and you should feel stupid.

CorruptUser wrote:You are missing the point entirely, and I think intentionally.


You stated something overly-generalized as a fact, he provided a counter-example, so you sling insults at him. You don't seem to be arguing in good faith here.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Shivahn » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:22 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Shivahn wrote:Islam is split pretty cleanly. As far as I know, most, if not all, attacks by Islamic radicals on civilians (especially in the West) are the result of Wahhabi and Salafi muslims.

If you wouldn't complain that Christianity is insufficiently demarcated for you to tell the difference between Catholics and baptists, it is kind of odd to complain about Islam in this manner.


There have been plenty of Shiite terrorists.


Er, ok, this is true, and my earlier statement presented a demarcation that may not have been as clean as I suggested. Perhaps a better argument would be that the desired "clean split" of Islam between violent and nonviolent elements is one that one could also desire in Christians, or pretty much any other group. Singling out Islam in this is suggestive of unstated assumptions that I think we should lay bare.

Your other point, about Jews, is actually entirely unclear. Perhaps you should restate it, rather than calling others stupid and maligning their motives?

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:38 am UTC

Basically that that whenever there's a major terrorist attack, the terrorists seem to go out of their way to target Jews. Not much of a point, really, just joking that all was right with the world since I was initially surprised they didn't blow up a Jewish temple or something. The terrorists seem to be making the statement "we'll keep bombing France/US until France/US stops interfering the mid-East, but even if France/US stops we'll still go after the Jews anyway".

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby sardia » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:59 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Basically that that whenever there's a major terrorist attack, the terrorists seem to go out of their way to target Jews. Not much of a point, really, just joking that all was right with the world since I was initially surprised they didn't blow up a Jewish temple or something. The terrorists seem to be making the statement "we'll keep bombing France/US until France/US stops interfering the mid-East, but even if France/US stops we'll still go after the Jews anyway".

All was right =/= they did something as I expected. You do realize that?

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:19 am UTC

"All was right" is a bit of gallows humor on my part. Of course it's not "right". That's the joke.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby leady » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:46 am UTC

Can we please avoid the ludicrous false equivocations between Christianity vs Islam with regards to terrorism


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