Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

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KnightExemplar
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:23 pm UTC

I agree the Season finale was good. Clearly the writers worked hard on making the finale work, but they took some serious liberties to get here.

Spoiler:
I think I figured out what pisses me off about the whole Sansa / Arya thing: that the "Point of View characters" have effectively hidden information from the audience. If Petyr Baelish were the point of view character for Season 7, it would have been far more interesting. The scene with Sansa / Arya talking about faces still makes no fucking sense. It exists purely to fuck the audience's expectations, because apparently Sansa / Arya were planning on fucking over Petyr Baelish this whole time.

I think its reasonable to expect that a combination of Sansa, Arya, and Bran working together would finally break Petyr Baelish. But the whole event just seemed lazily written to me.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:15 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I agree the Season finale was good. Clearly the writers worked hard on making the finale work, but they took some serious liberties to get here.

Spoiler:
I think I figured out what pisses me off about the whole Sansa / Arya thing: that the "Point of View characters" have effectively hidden information from the audience. If Petyr Baelish were the point of view character for Season 7, it would have been far more interesting. The scene with Sansa / Arya talking about faces still makes no fucking sense. It exists purely to fuck the audience's expectations, because apparently Sansa / Arya were planning on fucking over Petyr Baelish this whole time.

I think its reasonable to expect that a combination of Sansa, Arya, and Bran working together would finally break Petyr Baelish. But the whole event just seemed lazily written to me.


100% agree wit this.

Spoiler:
I don't understand the writers and the need for drama here. There's enough going on that you can make things dramatic without these "shocking revelations".

Like Jon falling under the ice in the previous episode. Why was that necessary? You could have had him fall off the damn dragon instead and have Benjen rescue him. It would have been less contrived. And it would have been even better if Rhaegal had come save him instead of Benjen ex machina. Would have been pretty cool consider he's almost certainly going to be the one riding Rhaegal next season. Would have been nice little foreshadowing since he is Rhaegar's son (at least for those who were still kinda clueless prior to it being explained this episode).

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:24 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I agree the Season finale was good. Clearly the writers worked hard on making the finale work, but they took some serious liberties to get here.

Spoiler:
I think I figured out what pisses me off about the whole Sansa / Arya thing: that the "Point of View characters" have effectively hidden information from the audience. If Petyr Baelish were the point of view character for Season 7, it would have been far more interesting. The scene with Sansa / Arya talking about faces still makes no fucking sense. It exists purely to fuck the audience's expectations, because apparently Sansa / Arya were planning on fucking over Petyr Baelish this whole time.

I think its reasonable to expect that a combination of Sansa, Arya, and Bran working together would finally break Petyr Baelish. But the whole event just seemed lazily written to me.


100% agree wit this.

Spoiler:
I don't understand the writers and the need for drama here. There's enough going on that you can make things dramatic without these "shocking revelations".

Like Jon falling under the ice in the previous episode. Why was that necessary? You could have had him fall off the damn dragon instead and have Benjen rescue him. It would have been less contrived. And it would have been even better if Rhaegal had come save him instead of Benjen ex machina. Would have been pretty cool consider he's almost certainly going to be the one riding Rhaegal next season. Would have been nice little foreshadowing since he is Rhaegar's son (at least for those who were still kinda clueless prior to it being explained this episode).


I agree with your musing overall, but want to point out that...

Spoiler:
Looking for Benjen was one of the major reasons why Jon Snow treks up north of the wall to begin with... like way back in Season 2. Jon needed to meet with Benjen before the White Walkers came south, and the writers ran out of time. Benjen saving Jon closes a loop. Its necessary to make a decent story.

Now the writers should have done a better job of Benjen meeting with Jon snow. I think falling off the dragon, then getting rescued would have worked as you said. Alternatively, Benjen could have met up with the group (ie: saved them from the Bear) and then died in the battle. Like "Hey, Jon, what are you doing north of the wall again? Oh, its important? Let me join Team DREAM TEAM AWESOME and lets do this shit!!"

There were plenty of ways of doing this without making it contrived.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby plytho » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:50 pm UTC

final episode season 7

Spoiler:
I've seen remarks about Jon Snow walking around with furs in the south and how hot he must be in them. Obviously as a Targaryen he's not bothered by heat :D
I was so happy when Jaime walked out on his sister. If Tyrion didn't suspect she was lying that's another major mistake he made. I was surprised to see Jaime riding alone though. I would expect at least a sizable portion of the army to trust his judgement and be more loyal to him than Cercei. Cercei's really alone at this point. She only has Qyburn, zombie clegane and Euron on her side. Every other named character is off to fight the good fight. Hmm, where's Bronn? Still out drinking with Pod?
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I got the sense that they fled to the part of the wall that didn't collapse. I expect them to send a raven with the news. Plenty of ravens (Bran's?) showed up just before the attack.
I liked the outcome of the Winterfell story but not the execution. Well, I liked the execution of littlefinger, not the execution of the story. Is littlefinger's face of any use to Arya?
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:19 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I agree with your musing overall, but want to point out that...

Spoiler:
Looking for Benjen was one of the major reasons why Jon Snow treks up north of the wall to begin with... like way back in Season 2. Jon needed to meet with Benjen before the White Walkers came south, and the writers ran out of time. Benjen saving Jon closes a loop. Its necessary to make a decent story.

Now the writers should have done a better job of Benjen meeting with Jon snow. I think falling off the dragon, then getting rescued would have worked as you said. Alternatively, Benjen could have met up with the group (ie: saved them from the Bear) and then died in the battle. Like "Hey, Jon, what are you doing north of the wall again? Oh, its important? Let me join Team DREAM TEAM AWESOME and lets do this shit!!"

There were plenty of ways of doing this without making it contrived.


Spoiler:
Really I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people didn't even remember who uncle Benjen was. Hell at least another line in episode 6 that "The three eyed raven sent me" would have been better. But he appeared out of nowhere and died without anyone even figuring out WHAT he was.

I don't even think the closure is needed. Like at the end of last season where Margery gives the picture of the rose to the Queen of Thorns. Implies there's some devious plan going on but nope, exploded. I'm ok with Jon never getting closure about uncle Benjen.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:34 pm UTC

Re:Final Episode

Spoiler:
plytho wrote:final episode season 7

I liked the outcome of the Winterfell story but not the execution. Well, I liked the execution of littlefinger, not the execution of the story. Is littlefinger's face of any use to Arya?


I feel like they dragged out this plotline far to much for the payoff we got for it. The material that they had could have been covered in maybe 2 episodes. In the end, we never really get to find out much than a very broad brush shape of Littlefinger's plan, and a lot of it never really comes together cohesively--if his ultimate goal was to marry Sansa and become ruler of North + Vale + Riverlands, it doesn't make sense to marry Sansa to the Boltons, for example. While I suspect that this will be very similar to Littlefinger's ultimate end in the books, I think that book readers will probably get a much more satisfactory resolution here. I agree with KnightExemplar that the misdirect about Sansa and Arya actually working together doesn't really feel right because there's no suggestion in the narrative that's what's actually going on. It's possible to write this sort of narrative in a way that this is what appears to be happening, but actually the real plot is hiding in plain sight, but this isn't, IMHO, what they did here. I still think it would have worked better to push the WW invasion into this season to create some real drama in the Winterfell plot.

I doubt his face will be of much use given how public his execution was. Anybody of importance is likely to have received word that he's dead.


I found myself kind of in awe of Cersei this episode--this season, actually. Yes, she's kind of evil and diabolical, but every decision that you see her make this season is perfectly in character (except maybe for sparing Tyrion this episode) and reasonable from her point of view. I also loved Qyburn's
reaction to the wight.

Cercei's really alone at this point. She only has Qyburn, zombie clegane and Euron on her side. Every other named character is off to fight the good fight. Hmm, where's Bronn? Still out drinking with Pod?


I'm a little disappointed that things seem to be pointing to a more traditional high fantasy ending. The series was kind of flirting with some characters ending up more on the dark side, but ultimately backed down.


Random note: Whatever happened to the Red Priests? Melissandre vanished. The other Red Priestess that supposedly joined Dany in Essos is similarly AWOL. This was their moment.


In book world, there was a prophecy about the "Dragon has three heads" suggesting that three people will be the dragonriders, which has been the source of endless speculation. I'm amused that the answer apparently is Dany + Jon + Night King. This is a great subversion. Ice dragon is also awesome.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:45 pm UTC

Spoiler:
There was an unfinished story with Benjen but just meeting up for a moment is no sort of resolution to it. What happened to him? Is he a wight? Is he still Benjen? How come he's not under White Walker control? What does he know about the NK? Just showing up to die doesn't really answer any of these questions.

I don't know how the Northeners are going to feel about Arya just taking faces off dead people- seems very Boltonish.

I agree that the Theon vs Nameless Ironborn fight wasn't very well executed. The emotional buildup was great, its just the actual fight was cliched and unconvincing.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Flumble » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:17 pm UTC

Snow in King's Landing!


LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
(except maybe for sparing Tyrion this episode)

Spoiler:
I'd say killing Tyrion would be a risky move with two dragons at her doorstep, but I couldn't tell from Cersei's behaviour whether she was actually thinking of such consequences.

Nice scheming of Cersei behind the backs of both characters (notably Jaime) and the audience. Much better execution than the scheming of Arya and Sansa.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:46 am UTC

Flumble wrote:Snow in King's Landing!


LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
(except maybe for sparing Tyrion this episode)

Spoiler:
I'd say killing Tyrion would be a risky move with two dragons at her doorstep, but I couldn't tell from Cersei's behaviour whether she was actually thinking of such consequences.

Nice scheming of Cersei behind the backs of both characters (notably Jaime) and the audience. Much better execution than the scheming of Arya and Sansa.


Tyrion
Spoiler:
I gotta wonder if there's more going on there. The look on his face when he was on the boat seeing Jon and Dany going at it, seemed very odd. I mean maybe he's falling in love with her too (like everyone it seems) but I don't think that was really played up. I also gotta wonder about Cersei's line to Jaime "I always knew you were the stupidest Lannister". Is she implying Tyrion knew she was betraying them? Is something else going on there? Is Tyrion some secret traitor? I may be reading too much into things here.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:59 am UTC

@Chen

Spoiler:
Not convinced she considers Tyrion a Lannister so, well, Jaime being the stupidest Lannister isn't too big a stressed
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Grop » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:55 pm UTC

What a Chekhov's Gun we saw here.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Quercus » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:00 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:@Chen

Spoiler:
Not convinced she considers Tyrion a Lannister so, well, Jaime being the stupidest Lannister isn't too big a stressed


Spoiler:
I'm not sure that Cersei ever considered Tyrion stupid, just evil and treacherous


maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
There was an unfinished story with Benjen but just meeting up for a moment is no sort of resolution to it. What happened to him? Is he a wight? Is he still Benjen? How come he's not under White Walker control? What does he know about the NK? Just showing up to die doesn't really answer any of these questions.


Spoiler:
My hope was that Benjen was going to be part of a deep-penetration guerrilla group of wildlings and children of the forest, who are setting up to pull some asymmetric warfare shit on the Night King. Seems Benjen's style and I'm hopeful that something like that will still happen in the books. Was really disappointed when he just up and suicide charged at the dead.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Grop » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:23 pm UTC

Re: B

Spoiler:
I thought Benjen was an uncontrolled wight. Maybe an orphan one, as in a White Walker died? In episode 6 when a white walker dies, all his wights fall into dust (which is both disappointing and cliché), except for one. That either means that surviving wight was controlled by some other white walker, of that they may survive their master's death for some reason.

So, a guess would be that Benjen was a very strong-willed undead man.


Also, are wight and white homophonous?

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:47 pm UTC

Wight and white are homophonous (hence the common misspelling of the Isle of Wight as the Isle of White)

Spoiler:
I can't remember whether it's more explicit in the books, but I always thought Coldhands/Benjen had somehow been "saved" by the children of the forest and/or the three-eyed raven. The fact he knows where they are and stuff certainly means he's working with them and, given their other magic stuff it certainly seems reasonable to assume they're responsible for his specialness as a wight who retains their personhood.


Edit: there are a few varieties that do distinguish wight and white because they retain the voicing distinction between /w/ and /wh/ which are now almost universally merged
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:21 am UTC

Spoiler:
That fan theory that always made the most sense to me is that Coldhands is a wight controlled by the Three-Eyed Raven who I always assumed was called that because he was previously known as Bloodraven. That whole idea goes that the Walkers are wargs who can control dead bodies instead of animals so maybe Bloodraven also had that power and reanimated a body to run around the North and do stuff. In that sense it is strange that Three-Eyed Raven appears to be a hereditary title in the show but all the wights falling down when their controlling Walker is killed makes sense. Oh, yeah, also Brynden Rivers died last season so unless control of "Benjen" was somehow transferred to Bran, this really doesn't work.

Also I am pretty sure the books state something along the lines of "Coldhands died a very long time ago" which wouldn't really fit with Benjen who was alive and well at the start of the story.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby ivnja » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:36 pm UTC

I just saw that Rose Leslie and Kit Harington have gotten engaged. I haven't read the books or watched the show, but I've picked up bits of the plot and characters through pop-cultural osmosis. So correct me if I've got this wrong, but when I saw the news I couldn't help but think...lucky bastard.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SDK » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:08 pm UTC

Aww, yeah, they were cute.

I like how they try to avoid spoilers in that article by saying she "left the cast". :P
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Ginger » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:16 am UTC

I hear from my mommy re: Theon Greyjoy is back to his senses, not "REEK" anymore, he left Bolton and so did Sansa... THEY should get together now. Whether Theon has his junk intact or not? And Lady Princess of Winterfell Sansa Stark is use to abusive men so. She could deal with Theon's hot, spicy and haughty rich prince daddy issues and tempers. <3 Hearts everywhere for pretty beautiful pretty Sansa Stark and T. Greyjoy, who is back to being the noble boy he should have been and they both leaving Lord Abusive R*****t Lord Bolton in the dusts. :)
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:19 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:I hear from my mommy re: Theon Greyjoy is back to his senses, not "REEK" anymore, he left Bolton and so did Sansa... THEY should get together now. Whether Theon has his junk intact or not? And Lady Princess of Winterfell Sansa Stark is use to abusive men so. She could deal with Theon's hot, spicy and haughty rich prince daddy issues and tempers. <3 Hearts everywhere for pretty beautiful pretty Sansa Stark and T. Greyjoy, who is back to being the noble boy he should have been and they both leaving Lord Abusive R*****t Lord Bolton in the dusts. :)


Uh he watched Ramsey rape her on her wedding night and did nothing about it. And he then told Ramsey about her escape attempt. Even though he "rescued" her in the end theres no relationship potential there.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Ginger » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:18 pm UTC

And Lord Baelish, whom she as well likes, lied about PUSHING A WOMAN TO HER DEATH. And Sansa went along with it. So, you know, relationships on that show are messed up big times. Not saying it HAS TO happen just something I might like to see? I'd rather see Sansa go with Tyrion Lannister anyways?
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:03 am UTC

Ginger wrote:And Lord Baelish, whom she as well likes, lied about PUSHING A WOMAN TO HER DEATH. And Sansa went along with it. So, you know, relationships on that show are messed up big times. Not saying it HAS TO happen just something I might like to see? I'd rather see Sansa go with Tyrion Lannister anyways?


That had zero to do with romantic inclination but self-preservation. She very clearly tells Baelish she's not interested. You know, because he basically SOLD her to Ramsey. Not sure how far you've watched but last season spoilers
Spoiler:
she makes her feelings towards Baelish even more clear when she has Arya kill him

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Ginger » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:10 am UTC

Well, okay, they not friends. But self-preservation is a kind of cordial, noble ladies' relationship. And that's all I'm getting at: Sansa is forced repeatedly into abusive relationships with men to survive, they all messed up all of them, and some guy with his junk cut off or some Noble Boy that runs a brothel... would not scare her as dates. That is... everything I am saying about Sansa.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby RegD » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:16 am UTC

For me, Sansa is the most irritating character out there. Can't stand her. She always makes poor choices, messes with the wrong guys, and goes with the stream, hoping someone will save her somehow... The only good choice she made at the end, hope not the last one.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Flumble » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:09 pm UTC

This week's episode was a snore. Many scenes went at a slower pace than comfortable and had no surprises, killing my engagement. Then again, I don't think I've liked any big battle in GoT—maybe that's me or maybe GoT is bad at big battles (opposed to drama and intrigue). Worst of all, it lessened my enjoyment of the musical scene at the end. (Also because I was internally screaming "get on with it already, just go to credits because I know it's going to end with a cliffhanger" for 5 minutes.) Arya's and Melissandre's actions were surprising and neat though.

Anyway, things can only get better from here. Now I'm excited for what the next episode will bring. Some meaty dialogue I hope.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby pseudoidiot » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:37 pm UTC

I was likewise bored and overall pretty disappointed with the episode as well.

There were some fun beats, but overall I just wasn't invested in nearly all of the episode. The terrible lighting and editing didn't help that at all.

Things I genuinely enjoyed:
Spoiler:
Arya leaping onto the Night King out of nowhere was easily my favorite part of the episode. Not even necessarily killing him. If she had died in the attempt it still would have been an awesome moment.

Lyanna having a cool moment was fun even though it was pretty gratuitous fan-service. But whatever I can enjoy that.

Arya sneaking through the library trying to dodge the wraiths was probably the best done scene. Quiet and tense. It was well-done.

Melisandre coming back was a nice surprise and make me think Arya may be Azor Ahai. Or at the very least Melisandre thought she was and was confident enough in that to finally die.


Main thing that bugged me:
Spoiler:
The whole episode just seemed so... safe. Like Game of Thrones used to be known for being risky and taking chances and bucking convention. And this episode would have been an amazing opportunity for all of those. And it just didn't.

Sure, like 7 named characters died. But beyond this big fight none of those really have much of a part in what's coming up. Except maybe with the exception of Jorah. But I always figured he'd die protecting Dany so this was a good time for that to happen.

And on top of that was just how badly edited and shot the battle (ground and sky) sequences were. There was no reason for everything to be so dark and hard to follow.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:38 pm UTC

re: S8E3

Spoiler:
I really feel that this probably should have been the last or the next-to-last episode in the series. They just survived the apocalypse. What could possibly else could matter, plot-wise, at this point? Who cares about the Iron Throne or who will be king/queen?

I also really, really, really hate the plot device that killing the one boss enemy instantly destroys all of their minions and using it here is below GoT's paygrade.

The whole episode just seemed so... safe. Like Game of Thrones used to be known for being risky and taking chances and bucking convention. And this episode would have been an amazing opportunity for all of those. And it just didn't.


Yeah, I agree with this so much. The most egregious cases are probably Jaime, Brienne, Podrick, Grey Worm and Sam who are all seen at various points in seemingly hopeless situations, only to be basically saved through editing (having the VIPs in the crypt all just survive is also a bit o.O).

[edit]Actually, for a few minutes there I also thought that they were going to kill Dany, which I would have found quite startling.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby doogly » Thu May 02, 2019 6:19 pm UTC

Re: Darkness: Just turn off the lights in your living room when you watch TV.

A thing Pseudo liked: I did not.
Spoiler:
The library scene was cool on its own, but it made no fucking sense. The wights are a teeming, stampeding swarm. But when you want to switch up the pace, they also do shambling and searching? It's just not what we've seen them do the rest of the episode. Way better would have been watching Tyrion and Sansa actually do some stabbing, they needed the attention.

And yeah, lots of aspects were cheap, easy and fan-servicy. I also made myself a big buttery popcorn and had a beer.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby freezeblade » Thu May 02, 2019 9:40 pm UTC

Re: Newest episode
Spoiler:
I blame GRRM not being more involved in the process of writing, now that we're out of book territory. George relished in killing characters, the current show runners are more hesitant to kill off any viewer's favorite characters. None of the deaths in that battle episode were of much consequence.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 15, 2019 6:16 pm UTC

Penultimate episode spoiler
Spoiler:
Gee, who wouldve thought that the girl who began the series practicing necromancy and human sacrifice in order to bring back fire-breathing man-eaters, conquered major cities and held mass executions, and led an army of the most rapey barbarians the world has ever known, would turn out to be evil?

Ok, twisting things a bit to make it look obvious in hindsight. But no, it wasnt obvious. So Dany is now the end boss that Jon must defeat. That or she was replaced by Jacqaan the face changing assassin dude, and Syrio Folel ends up on the iron throne, married to Tyrion's ex wife.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby HardDust » Thu May 16, 2019 11:06 am UTC

Well, who have already watched episode 5? I think
Spoiler:
Daenerys shows traits of the mad queen when she burns everything and everyone around just like her distant ancestor Aegon Targaryen.
Waiting for the last episode.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby plytho » Thu May 16, 2019 11:09 am UTC

HardDust wrote:Well, who have already watched episode 5?
Spoiler:
I think Daenerys shows traits of the mad queen when she burns everything and everyone around just like her distant ancestor Aegon Targaryen.
Waiting for the last episode.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby doogly » Thu May 16, 2019 11:51 am UTC

I think we can assume that if you aren't caught up, you don't care to discuss the show in the thread.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 16, 2019 2:15 pm UTC

doogly wrote:I think we can assume that if you aren't caught up, you don't care to discuss the show in the thread.

You could be caught up to the previous episode or something. I don't actually watch the show anymore and don't care about spoilers, but others could.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SecondTalon » Thu May 16, 2019 2:31 pm UTC

doogly wrote:I think we can assume that if you aren't caught up, you don't care to discuss the show in the thread.

See the Rules Thead. Where I specifically put it in as a blanket "Always use spoilers" so I don't have to think.

Whatever argument you have about not needing spoilers boils down to "I'm too fuckin' lazy to click a goddamn button so fuck you" and that's... no.

The exception to that being threads that are titled things like "Chainsaw Ninja 4: The Chainsawining (Spoilers like crazy)" as everyone understands that by clicking on the thread they're consenting to finding out that the Chainsaw Ninjas' mother was actually a log splitter and not a chainsaw as they previously believed.

The chainsaw was just a family friend.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 16, 2019 6:22 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:The chainsaw was just a family friend.

Ugh, use your spoiler tags, I was gonna watch that!
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Tim25N » Fri May 17, 2019 1:48 pm UTC

Honestly, I do not remember the previous seasons very well and that is why some plots are incomprehensible to me, in general, the final season is not inferior to the previous ones.
Last edited by Tim25N on Mon May 20, 2019 8:17 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby CorruptUser » Sat May 18, 2019 8:37 am UTC

Eh, I think the past few seasons have been downhill. Some say it's because GRR Martin isn't involved enough. That isn't it. There's a fundamental flaw in the type of material that makes up the show; you can't kill off major characters that have been around since the beginning and still have lots characters that have been around since the beginning. This is the same problem in The Walking Dead, and in Attack on Titan. There's really no way around it. You can try to introduce new characters to replace them, but the audience won't become emotionally involved the same way. You get stuck with a few core characters who then become immortal as the plot demands it whereas in the early start the plot never twisted itself to protect a major character.

By all means, nearly every major character should've (permanently) died by now from the original rule of "do stupid shit and you die instantly", but then we'd be watching the adventures of street urchin #3 and random peasant #2. So we are stuck with major battles where the core cast miraculously survive but random schmucks that only just got introduced that episode are wormfood.

As for how I would've liked the show to go...
Spoiler:
Prior season, when Cersei burns the sept, the entire city turns on her. Her moment of triumph is immediately turned into one of accidental suicide, as the throngs of pissed off peasants beat her to death. The soldiers flee, and every noble in the city is torn to bits in a more vicious version of the French Revolution. The throne itself is broken up for scrap. Dany and her horde arrive mostly unopposed as a result, and she and Jon go north for the final battle.

Jon and Dany LOSE the battle of Winterfell. Nearly everyone dies, including Dany and Jon. Bran wargs into Drogon and flies away with Arya. The night king and crew proceed to slaughter every last human in the north, and scour the land southward. It's revealed that the Maesters of Oldtown themselves had been plotting the destruction of all the noble houses one way or another, with the Night King being part of the plan, which they also have some device to defeat and then reclaim the north. But a pissed off Arya starts murdering them left and right, which makes the plan impossible. Instead, the Night King is halted at The Neck instead of destroyed, and a new wall is erected along that line, and the next, darker age begins.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed May 22, 2019 7:51 am UTC

Tim25N wrote:Honestly, I do not remember the previous seasons very well and that is why some plots are incomprehensible to me, in general, the final season is not inferior to the previous ones.
Not to be mean but the only way this ending makes sense is if you remember nothing from the previous seasons :) It helps a lot if you completely forget the previous episodes in this season each week too because they are retconning some pretty major things from episode to episode, sometimes swinging back and forth multiple times throughout the season.

Anyway, this was pretty much the definition of ending not with a bang but with a whimper. Shame the acting, visuals, music, sets and mostly directing were so on point only to be totally betrayed by the writing. Episode six wasn't even frustrating, just boring and nonsensical.
Spoiler:
I am pretty sure we got a very accurate representation of how the books are going to end in terms of bullet points, we just didn't get any of the gradual and well-motivated character development that gets us there.

Early seasons had seeds of Daenerys turning into a tyrant that come from the books but there needed to be a seasons long arc of her slowly building up into her atrocity at the end. Doesn't help that it was supposed to be (f)Aegon that pushed her into it but instead they split his characteristics between Cersei and Jon (the other Aegon Targaryen that's actually in the show) when they don't make sense for either of those characters. Young Griff being the shining example of an enlightened monarch who returns at the head of the Golden Company, unites the Reach, Dorne and the Stormlands through diplomacy and minimal force then rids the kingdom of the hated usurper Cersei would absolutely be loved by the people and Targaryen loyalists, especially with the support of Varys's whisperers. Mapping that onto Jon makes no sense because even people in the North barely know who he is, the people south of the Neck certainly haven't heard of him and have no reason to love him. Spending some time to establish how the fanatically loyal and intensely weird Unsullied and barbarous dothraki would establish Dany as a feared invader by comparison would have really payed off.

Similarly Jon choosing his northern roots over his Targaryen blood could make a lot of sense if they had spent the time exploring his reactions and thoughts about the revelation. There wasn't any time for any of that though. It would also make sense why no one would want Jon on the throne immediately after a devastating war between two Targaryens, one of them another secret Aegon Targaryen. This whole story was just another thing that needed a few season to play out, not four episodes with barely a minute per episode dedicated to the storyline.

A conflicted Jamie tragically deciding to return to Cersei could have been heartbreaking but not when it happens less than ten minutes of screentime after he decides to be with Brienne. Sansa wanting to rule an independent North could make sense if the North had spent a long and grueling campaign against the White Walkers without any support from the Southern kingdoms. I could go on but I think better writing and more time would have made almost every ending we got make quite a bit more sense but the last two to three seasons have left no time for the careful gradual character development and nuanced dilemmas that made the early seasons so great. Just compare the emotional gut punches of Ned's death, jamie's hand getting cut off, the Red Wedding, Joffrey's poisoning and so on to the barely 40 seconds between Daenerys dying and Sansa cracking jokes at the expense of her uncle who spend several years as a prisoner of war in fear for his life because of her family's failings... but, wait, that's just some pompous goofball that hasn't been shown in three seasons so the audience surely doesn't even know who he is.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Wed May 22, 2019 10:15 am UTC

I am pretty sure this ending (and this whole season) is a good explanantion of why we haven’t gotten a new book in about 8 years and counting.

GRRM gave the producers his outline. So they knew where they had to go, just like he does. Except he seems to be worried about consistency and logical progression and thus can’t actually figure out HOW to get his characters to the end he envisioned. The show writers, not having that same time luxury just hit all the bullet points no matter how nonsensical it was to get to them.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby arbiteroftruth » Wed May 22, 2019 3:34 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
Sansa wanting to rule an independent North could make sense if the North had spent a long and grueling campaign against the White Walkers without any support from the Southern kingdoms.


Spoiler:
Wait, you're including the North wanting independence as something that was rushed? The North has been yearning for independence since Ned's execution at the end of season 1! They only submitted to the Boltons as Wardens of the North because Robb was dead and the other Starks were presumed dead as well, so they had no King/Queen in the North to unite behind. As soon as Sansa turned up, Stark loyalists started trying to help her, eventually word reached Jon, northern houses united behind them and named him the new King in the North after overthrowing the Boltons, fully expecting to then be independent and fight Cersei for it if necessary. Then when Jon bent the knee to Danaerys, the whole North got pissed at him, and they only tolerated it because of the world-ending threat of the White Walkers. And even then Sansa made it pretty clear to Dany that the North would be unlikely to submit to her.

If the North wanting independence seems rushed to you, I can't help but wonder just how many seasons you wanted.


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