Firearms Regulations

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Thesh » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:29 pm UTC

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:40 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:What's the purpose of open carry, exactly? The United States is basically the only country in the world that allows this under any circumstance.


It depends, culturally. It's a lot more accepted in rural areas. Going into a place to eat during hunting season with your rifle slung over your shoulder is acceptable in some areas. Not really treated differently than a tradesman having a toolbelt on.

It's usually not considered normal in urban areas. Some rural areas also frown on it. Depends on area and context. In some areas, a jumpy cop might use it as an excuse to put a bullet in you, depending.

Mostly, it depends on if it's something the regional culture thinks needs to be hidden.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby PAstrychef » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:49 am UTC

Alas, that fails to explain the function or purpose of open carry, it just claims that doing so is accepted in some parts of the US. As far as I can tell, it’s main purpose is to show off that you are carrying a gun around with you everywhere. I suppose it was at one point supposed to intimidate those around you who might otherwise have thought you were a juicy target.
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:44 am UTC

And, yet, Concealed Carry is claimed to grant (like a Herd Immunity) safety across the board because <random_victim> or <random_passerby> might be carrying a weapon, if that sort of thing might deter your own extralegal entrepreneurial taxation-by-threat plan, meaning you don't just need to stay away from people with holstered/slung guns in choosing your target and moment to act.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby ucim » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:00 am UTC

PAstrychef wrote:Alas, that fails to explain the function or purpose of open carry...
Open carry is a form of right or permission. It is similar to the right (or permission) to openly carry a laptop or a power tool or a beer or a can of gasoline. The right (or permission) to carry something is fairly basic.

The question would be: why should the open carrying of {particular thing} be prohibited? Because in the absence of good reasons to prohibit something, it should be permitted.

When such reasons are given, we can discuss them.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Zohar » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:28 pm UTC

ucim wrote:The question would be: why should the open carrying of {particular thing} be prohibited? Because in the absence of good reasons to prohibit something, it should be permitted.

For one thing, because this particular thing is often used for intimidation and quieting of other people, particularly marginalized people and anyone who doesn't vocally agree with the person carrying the gun. Does this really need explanation on why it's a bad idea?
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:51 pm UTC

PAstrychef wrote:Alas, that fails to explain the function or purpose of open carry, it just claims that doing so is accepted in some parts of the US. As far as I can tell, it’s main purpose is to show off that you are carrying a gun around with you everywhere. I suppose it was at one point supposed to intimidate those around you who might otherwise have thought you were a juicy target.


It's hard to conceal a rifle or shotgun. So, it's a matter of practicality in many cases. After all, you are open carrying while hunting.

If you're riding the subway, justifying it as a matter of practicality is rather different than while hunting, though. Legality aside, there are times and places where doing so isn't going to bother anyone, and times where it's maybe not appropriate. Intimidation isn't a good reason, of course.

As an aside, had a state senator do a thing a coupla years back in which he carried a rifle openly in MD, with folks filming the results. Police were somewhat alarmed in some cases, but...ultimately, he was an old white dude with a lot of political power. He was in no danger, and the police were quite friendly and polite with him. He invited anyone present(this was viewed in senate deliberations) to contend that the same reaction would be given to minorities doing the same thing. None of the other senators took him up on it. Open carry is theoretically legal in MD, but in practice, ehhhhh. So, there's a seriously problematic aspect to how open carry is treated. It's a completely legal thing that police feel justified in executing minorities for doing.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby addams » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:19 pm UTC

I do not know Why.
In my state, open carry is legal.
Concealed Carry required a special permit.

I was a bit 'jumpy' from the time I had taken the basic firearms safety course and purchased a gun,
until the time I had registered for and completed the additional training and applied to the Sheriff.

Anyone arguing against Registration, Education and Safe Storage are arguing in Bad Faith or Trolls.

Period.
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:27 pm UTC

addams wrote:Anyone arguing against Registration, Education and Safe Storage are arguing in Bad Faith or Trolls.

Period.
End of Story.


Not in the slightest. Registration is often argued against, and is a mainstream position.

Pretty much everyone is a fan of education and safe storage. There are concerns that legislation on these can be used to quash legitimate usage, though. And I'd personally like to not be required to buy two locks for every pistol, particularly when I'm going to just drop them in the pile of unused locks, and put the gun in a safe.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:46 pm UTC

I mean, I'm pretty sure anyone making the blanket claim that 'anyone arguing against X is either arguing in bad faith or a troll' is either arguing in bad faith, or a troll...
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby cphite » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:10 pm UTC

reval wrote:Yes, many states have training requirements for carrying and using firearms, and it is important to distinguish that from ownership requirements.


I wouldn't be opposed to required training to own; and then additional required training to carry. Of course, it would need to be operated in good faith - no slow-rolling the process as an indirect means of stopping people from owning or carrying firearms.

For example, in Minnesota a permit to carry a firearm in public requires training and qualification. Similarly, getting a hunting license requires hunter safety training (except for people born before 1980 who are grandfathered - I guess back then people were born already knowing about gun safety?) So in practice the only place you can have a gun without training is at your home or business, at a range, or in transit, unloaded and in a closed case.


Not unreasonable.

The only part of this that bothers me is when "training" gets downgraded to "watching a video", which I don't consider training. I want to hold the line at in-person training with real live teachers. This is serious stuff and deserves serious training.


Agreed. Training should be with a live, qualified instructor, and should include proving that you've absorbed the material.

You should be able to demonstrate that you can clean, load, and unload the weapon in a safe manner. You should be able to answer questions about the applicable laws in your state and community. And you should be able to demonstrate that you can fire the weapon in a safe manner; and that you're aware of the basic safety measures that are involved. You should know how to properly store the weapon and ammunition, etc.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby cphite » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:35 pm UTC

PAstrychef wrote:Alas, that fails to explain the function or purpose of open carry, it just claims that doing so is accepted in some parts of the US. As far as I can tell, it’s main purpose is to show off that you are carrying a gun around with you everywhere. I suppose it was at one point supposed to intimidate those around you who might otherwise have thought you were a juicy target.


Arguments for open carry typically involve accessibility; it's just a lot faster and easier to get to the weapon if you really need it. Deterrence is another common argument; the idea being that an attacker is less likely to assault someone who is obviously armed.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby ucim » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:47 pm UTC

cphite wrote:I wouldn't be opposed to required training to own; and then additional required training to carry. Of course, it would need to be operated in good faith - no slow-rolling the process as an indirect means of stopping people from owning or carrying firearms.
I agree; the problem is in the "good faith" part, because the fundamental reason that people should be able to own firearms is that it's the last ditch defense against tyranny.

I'd propose that the training agency be independent of government, and apolitical. Keeping it that way is the hard part - it's a "who watches the watchers" problem no matter where it is.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:50 pm UTC

The NRA has a separate arm for politics rather than training. Is that sufficient for your purposes?

There is overlap in both people and ideology to a degree, but NRA safety training is actually safety training, not a political rally or the like.

The MN system is fairly reasonable. It's probably more apolitical than most. When I went through it, my instructor was an NRA instructor who did the safety training as well.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby cphite » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:45 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
cphite wrote:I wouldn't be opposed to required training to own; and then additional required training to carry. Of course, it would need to be operated in good faith - no slow-rolling the process as an indirect means of stopping people from owning or carrying firearms.


I agree; the problem is in the "good faith" part, because the fundamental reason that people should be able to own firearms is that it's the last ditch defense against tyranny.

I'd propose that the training agency be independent of government, and apolitical. Keeping it that way is the hard part - it's a "who watches the watchers" problem no matter where it is.


Good points.

The NRA has training programs; and there would certainly be other organizations willing to provide training for a fee.

But, in addition to being independent - it needs to actually be valuable. People should actually learn something useful and be able to apply it. There should be reasonable standards for what constitutes an acceptable curriculum. If it's just "watch these videos" or "sit through these lectures" there isn't any point.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby ucim » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:44 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:The NRA has a separate arm for politics rather than training. Is that sufficient for your purposes?
Probably, though it should have a different name. The mandatory training institution should be completely insulated from political pressure, and should also appear completely insulated from it.

And yes, real training, aimed at safety, competence, and respect for the power over life and death that a gun gives you. Nothing wrong with videos as part of the training (just look at the threeblueonebrown youtube channel - awesome presentation of high end math topics), but many things require hands-on training with a real live person.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:58 am UTC

Firearms should be treated like drugs - legalize use and possession, but have rules for harm and conflict reduction. This may mean we don't allow people to smoke marijuana in public spaces in urban environments. This may mean we don't allow people to openly carry weapons, which is not only disruptive but automatically puts someone in a possession of power due to the potential threat it carries.
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:28 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:The NRA has a separate arm for politics rather than training. Is that sufficient for your purposes?
Probably, though it should have a different name. The mandatory training institution should be completely insulated from political pressure, and should also appear completely insulated from it.

And yes, real training, aimed at safety, competence, and respect for the power over life and death that a gun gives you. Nothing wrong with videos as part of the training (just look at the threeblueonebrown youtube channel - awesome presentation of high end math topics), but many things require hands-on training with a real live person.

Jose


NRA-ILA's the legislative branch. Semi-different name. The training has been under the main NRA name for basically forever. I suspect the NRA simply can't keep the two distinct in the public eye. Even though the training courses are not political, perception is going to greatly blur the two. Anti-gun advocates appear to dislike the NRA as a whole, and do not make the distinction between the lobbying arm and the rest.

Harm and conflict resolution laws largely exist. Open carry is hard to ban entirely. Doing so would be really strange for hunting, etc. Use for intimidation or coercion ought to be illegal, of course, but it's challenging to think of a way to legislate that without giving police a means to heavily discriminate against minorities. That's already a severe problem with firearms.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby cphite » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:34 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:The NRA has a separate arm for politics rather than training. Is that sufficient for your purposes?


Probably, though it should have a different name. The mandatory training institution should be completely insulated from political pressure, and should also appear completely insulated from it.


Not sure I like the idea of any single institution; I'd rather there be standards that any institution that wants to teach these courses would have to meet. I'm not at all opposed to the NRA being involved; they're a known organization and they have an excellent track record in regards to training.

And yes, real training, aimed at safety, competence, and respect for the power over life and death that a gun gives you.


Yes. A lot of the problems with current training is that all too often there is way too much focus on shooting, and way to little focus on things like loading, clearing, and cleaning a weapon. Far too many people hurt themselves while cleaning a weapon they haven't cleared properly; or trying to clear a weapon and doing it wrong. And way too often, safety is merely talked about as sort of a checklist of things not to do; it needs to really be emphasized and tested.

Nothing wrong with videos as part of the training (just look at the threeblueonebrown youtube channel - awesome presentation of high end math topics), but many things require hands-on training with a real live person.


Video is fine as a tool; the problem is when it's the only tool used. Learning to properly handle a firearm requires some actual hands-on time properly handling a firearm.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:49 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Not sure I like the idea of any single institution; I'd rather there be standards that any institution that wants to teach these courses would have to meet. I'm not at all opposed to the NRA being involved; they're a known organization and they have an excellent track record in regards to training.


That does seem better, yes. The government shouldn't be forcing the use of a single private organization. Covering, say, safe usage and storage, as well as hands on demonstration with a blue gun would work. (A "blue gun" is a non-firing replica used for training purposes). Perhaps a basic marksmanship component.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby ucim » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:12 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Even though the training courses are not political, perception is going to greatly blur the two.
Not just perception; putting (a branch of) the NRA in charge of (or closely linked to) licensing makes it political.
cphite wrote:Not sure I like the idea of any single institution; I'd rather there be standards that any institution that wants to teach these courses would have to meet.
I agree wholeheartedly. Good point.

Jose
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby addams » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:48 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Even though the training courses are not political, perception is going to greatly blur the two.
Not just perception; putting (a branch of) the NRA in charge of (or closely linked to) licensing makes it political.
cphite wrote:Not sure I like the idea of any single institution; I'd rather there be standards that any institution that wants to teach these courses would have to meet.
I agree wholeheartedly. Good point.

Jose
My instructors were Good!
They were accredited by the State to teach.

One of my instructors had won awards and had been given useful gifts.
I think he was deserving the respect he had earned. Not all are as good.

Therefore; Ya' gott'a keep going to classes.
You'll get a Good one, sooner or later.

Quick class every, ...umm..Two years when you re-register your Guns.
Yeah. One year or two years...Every two years makes it easy to forget.

We can have Basic Refresher Courses that take (shrug) Three Hours?
Of course, Everyone MUST take the Three Day or Evening Basic Safety Class to own.

Just like a Car, Motorcycle or Boat that thing MUST be registered and insured.
If you do a Back Flip, drop your gun and shoot me, you can be covered for that.

I don't know what kind of Anarchy you are advocating for.
I am advocating for Provable Personal Responsibility.

If I am asked, I must Prove my Car, Motorcycle or Boat are registered.
Why the Hell don't we have Registration Laws for Guns?? STUPID?
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:10 pm UTC

addams wrote:My instructors were Good!
They were accredited by the State to teach.


I would disagree that state instruction is best for firearms. Even police training is often not great. Military...hit and miss. Sure, you have your special forces stuff, which is pretty cool, but on the flip side, air force handguns qualification is a web based training that you click through. No actual firearm touched or in person instruction. Strictly inferior to almost all civilian training.

You may get some good ones, but it's an area in which government is not necessarily superior.

Quick class every, ...umm..Two years when you re-register your Guns.
Yeah. One year or two years...Every two years makes it easy to forget.


Okay, registration is undesirable, but if we had a registration schema why would we re-register them?

The gun's serial number isn't going to change.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby ucim » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:27 pm UTC

addams wrote:I don't know what kind of Anarchy you are advocating for.
I am advocating for Provable Personal Responsibility.
The kind of "anarchy" that liberated us from the British king two hundred or so years ago. And this is not incompatible with Provable Personal Responsibility; that's a false dichotomy. We just have to be careful that "provable" doesn't become "agent of suppression".

addams wrote:If you do a Back Flip, drop your gun and shoot me, you can be covered for that.
Is this a clever way for a hitman to get paid and reimbursed for a hit? Maybe there's a market for acrobatic hit men. Couple this with reality TV and our present administration and there could be endless bread and circuses~

Jose
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:37 pm UTC

Firearm-specific insurance is another way to cost-gate firearm ownership.

Firearm accidents are not terribly common. If you do injure someone through negligence, yes, you're liable, but a gun isn't special here. Accidentally injuring someone due to firearm stupidity isn't different than doing it any other way.

The only time we make an individual carry specific liability insurance is for vehicles. It's necessary there only because vehicle accidents are ludicrously common. Firearm-specific liability insurance makes no more sense than swimming pool-specific liability insurance.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby ucim » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:47 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Firearm-specific liability insurance makes no more sense than swimming pool-specific liability insurance.
Bear in mind that many (general) insurance policies exclude specific perils, such as aviation, swimming pools, and firearms. In some cases you can't even buy a rider for it.

Jose
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby addams » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:02 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
addams wrote:I don't know what kind of Anarchy you are advocating for.
I am advocating for Provable Personal Responsibility.
The kind of "anarchy" that liberated us from the British king two hundred or so years ago. And this is not incompatible with Provable Personal Responsibility; that's a false dichotomy. We just have to be careful that "provable" doesn't become "agent of suppression".


addams wrote:If you do a Back Flip, drop your gun and shoot me, you can be covered for that.
Is this a clever way for a hitman to get paid and reimbursed for a hit? Maybe there's a market for acrobatic hit men. Couple this with reality TV and our present administration and there could be endless bread and circuses~

Jose
The Backflip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1mhqd8ckUE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJhMlmf2awg
Registration, Training and Safe Storage will not prevent All accidents with Guns anymore than it has with Cars.

I feel terribly oppressed about Registering and Insuring a Car.
The cost has a little to do with suppressing Car Ownership.

The Chinese Government uses high Registration Cost to suppress Car Ownership.
(Raises Fist*) Freedom To Drive!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H5RO7XgX4A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8ydQrBJ8vQ

Have you seen Chinese Drivers?
This Guy has.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUfsB2siCOI
Last edited by addams on Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:23 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:22 pm UTC

The FBI guy, presumably, had training to not be an idiot with a gun, and nobody trained him to break dance with one.

I think that case is pretty straightforward. Hold the idiot cop responsible for his negligence, same as you would for anyone else.

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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby addams » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:50 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:The FBI guy, presumably, had training to not be an idiot with a gun, and nobody trained him to break dance with one.

I think that case is pretty straightforward. Hold the idiot cop responsible for his negligence, same as you would for anyone else.
Yes.
Yet; For Crying Oy Loud! Don't be a Dick.
Shit Happens.

He was Trained, His Gun was Registered to him, He knew how to carry and store it.
He was taught that he was Responsible for what that Gun did, 24/7!

Yet; Shit Happens; With a Gun, On a Boat, During Driving and On a Bike.

If we require Every Gun to have a Trained Responsible Registered Owner;
Shit is still going to happen. Understanding and forgiveness gets easier.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: Firearms Regulations

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:54 pm UTC

addams wrote:He was Trained, His Gun was Registered to him, He knew how to carry and store it.
He was taught that he was Responsible for what that Gun did, 24/7!


If all of those things happened, and those things failed to prevent the incident, why are you using the example to argue for them?

Things that will happen regardless of registration are not reasons for registration.


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