Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:26 am UTC

I'll grant that at any given time there might be a nonzero number of good cops, but only because there's a constant stream of naive recruits who think it's possible to stay both.

But in practice good cops either refuse to commit or be complicit in evil, and thus cease to be cops fairly quickly, or they learn to keep quiet and thus aid in the evil, and cease to be good.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:27 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:We'd rather construct an apparatus to sanctify hundreds of killers -- providing them the right to commit thousands of murders per year -- then permit the possibility that a single murderer might go free.


right! i think this is what it comes down to ultimately. american society is extremely invested in rigorously preserving a system that punishes people at the expense of even starting to move toward alternatives. literally any time prison abolition/police abolition comes up, people have this knee jerk "but then what will you do about rapists/murderers" while conveniently ignoring that we already don't do particularly much about these people, we have a system that prioritizes punishing minorities and allowing police to kill without consequence. rapists and murderers go unpunished and free all the time in our current system as is because it is not about safety, it is about punishing the undeserving & putting more slaves into prisons. its a completely nonsense argument that relies on assuming that state murder is fine and also ignores that a huge number of us who want these systems abolished are, in fact, people already most affected by violence. its not a coincidence that most prison abolitionists i know come from communities most severely affected by violence (poor black communities, sex workers, homeless/formerly homeless people) who already are considered dispensible/acceptable targets of violence.

if i call the police, for a crime committed against me, i am more likely to face hostility if not outright violence from the police than to get any help. this isn't hypothetical -- literally every time i have gone to the police for "help" i have instead received reactions ranging from ridicule to actual assault. but yet! people will consistently be like "oh yeah what would you do if a CRIME HAPPENED" as if... cops exist to help us with those.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:48 am UTC

I'm sorry for your losses. And I am aware that there are people here who are closer to the bad side of cops than I am. And I acknowledge that there are systemic problems. These have to be fixed. This is far from saying "100% of cops are bad" however. It's likd saying "100% of politicians are bad - let's tear the whole thing down." That went well.

So you abolish police. And courts. And jails.

Now what? Serious question - there are bad people that do bad things. Do you just let them? Or do they magically change?

I won't dispute that there are some bad cops. You seem to be in a position to find more of them than I am. But it's an extrapolation beyond hyperbole to say that even if you have encountered all bad cops, that all cops are bad. And that's the issue I take with the statement - that Thesh was saying that 100% isn't hyperbole, but is literally true across the entire country.

Work in a hospital and you'll see mostly sick and injured people. Work at a restaurant and you'll see mostly hungry people. Work in a prison and you'll see mostly criminals. Extrapolation is risky.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:52 am UTC

Oh no, you work in a prison and you realize that everyone was innocent. They dealt drugs to support their girlfriend, or beat up that guy with a tire iron because he insulted their sister, or killed that guy but it was ok because he was in a rival gang and so the death was honorable and all. You'll only rarely find a guilty person in there.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:57 am UTC

ucim wrote:Now what? Serious question - there are bad people that do bad things. Do you just let them? Or do they magically change?
Again, there are alternative ways to address violent action that don't involve enshrining a portion of our populace with the right to commit violence with impunity. But even that point aside: The question shouldn't be "Well, if COPS aren't punishing the murderers, who will?!" but rather: "Do cops actually prevent murder? Or do they contribute to it?"

If the net result of having a police force is more dead bodies, then we ought to consider the possibility that we're better off without a police force. We can figure out where to go from there.
CorruptUser wrote:Oh no, you work in a prison and you realize that everyone was innocent. They dealt drugs to support their girlfriend, or beat up that guy with a tire iron because he insulted their sister, or killed that guy but it was ok because he was in a rival gang and so the death was honorable and all. You'll only rarely find a guilty person in there.
Everything you just described isn't 'They Are Innocent', but rather, 'They're Guilty, But They Did It For Reasons'.

And, I mean -- yes. When you work in prison, I imagine you discover that the people there did the things that got them there for reasons. And I bet that a lot of times, those reasons make you wonder why they're there at all.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:05 am UTC

The point is that they think they are innocent, and that's a problem in itself. It's the ones that know they are guilty that I honestly have sympathy for.

As for your cop-less society, as with all utopias, I sincerely hope you get to see and endure your own version of utopia.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:11 am UTC

i mean, i don't think it's even slightly possible to abolish these systems in isolation, but they do not exist in isolation to begin with. i think if we want to work on abolishing the police & prisons, we first need to work on addressing the underlying factors that exacerbate violence. if we had a society that did not leave people to starve, push them into desperate positions where they had no idea how to keep a roof over their head or get a next meal, actually had good and comprehensive systems of healthcare & mental health care so that people could deal with issues like stress/violent inclinations/anger/depression in a context where they had a healthy support system and ways to productively manage it, actually addressed the rampant white supremacy that encourages men to express themselves through violence, &c, &c, that would in the first place reduce a lot of the root causes of crime.

there will always be people who are violent and abusive, for sure, and part of focusing on building communities that actually take care of the people in them would imo also be having robust community accountability processes. an enormous part of what we consider "necessary" functions of police could be much better handled by mediation teams, crisis response & intervention teams, community-led violence intervention that gets people from the actual affected communities to act as mediators -- these types of programs (often recruiting from ex-cons, gang members who are leaving the life, people who have already been involved in violence, have already even in our current world been demonstrated to reduce violence significantly. in my city we have been campaigning to fully implement one of these programs, modeled on similar ones that have had proven results in places like baltimore and chicago. unfortunately, even though the act was passed a long time ago, the city has dragged its feet on actually funding it instead of continuing to fund more militarized police.)

but, yes, it will take drastic changes. i'm well aware of that. it also still does not excuse police currently for their participation in a murderous system that was literally designed for racist oppression.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:22 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The point is that they think they are innocent, and that's a problem in itself. It's the ones that know they are guilty that I honestly have sympathy for.
As for your cop-less society, as with all utopias, I sincerely hope you get to see and endure your own version of utopia.

There aren't that many cops out there that you, and criminals would have interactions with them beyond "they caught me speeding". You could probably pull back beat cops in a lot of areas without any noticeable difference. Besides, if the cops are that bad in an urban neighborhood, like say Chicago on the southside, what's the point of paying them? We should probably dig up citations for this though. Not sure if it's hyperbole, or if the minority experience with cops is that godawful.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Opus_723 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:34 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote: But even that point aside: The question shouldn't be "Well, if COPS aren't punishing the murderers, who will?!" but rather: "Do cops actually prevent murder? Or do they contribute to it?"


I have to admit I hadn't really thought to consider that second question. My prior is definitely that cops reduce murder, but I do like that this is, in principle, an objectively answerable question. I'm pretty sure people have done studies about say, the average effect on crime rates of increasing the police force by x%. I'll go look for one.

Of course we'd have to compare those numbers to the expected increase in killings of civilians by cops. The demographics would be important, too, as in: even if more cops reduces murders on balance, is the net effect of an additional cop also shifting deaths from wealthy white people to impoverished minorities?

Even if cops unambiguously reduce murders (which I believe, but if someone has evidence otherwise please share), we should be very careful that we're not just setting an acceptable 'exchange rate' between the lives of different sorts of people. And if that's what we're doing, then people should absolutely scrutinize who is being allowed to define 'acceptable.'

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:51 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:The question shouldn't be "Well, if COPS aren't punishing the murderers, who will?!"
That never was the question.

Cops aren't there to punish anybody. They are there to apprehend when necessary. It is the judicial system that deals with innocence or guilt, and any subsequent punishment, rehabilitation, or release. True, bad cops will do bad things, but the point I was disagreeing with was that literally, without exception, 100% of cops are Bad People who torture and ....

natraj wrote:...we first need to work on addressing the underlying factors that exacerbate violence. if we had a society that did not leave people to starve, push them into desperate positions...
I agree 100%. But it's also important to understand what cops, what judges, what juries, and what prisons are (ideally) there for, as well as what they sometimes get used for. They are different things which should not be confused.

The fact that there are systemic (as well as individual) problems does not imply that literally, without exception or hyperbole, 100% of cops are Bad. Saying so is invoking alternative facts, and alternative facts do not help towards understanding of the issue, or towards a solution.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:53 am UTC

ucim wrote:the point I was disagreeing with was that literally, without exception, 100% of cops are Bad People who torture and ....


it's a good thing that nobody was saying that 100% of cops torture anyone then. what we are saying is that 100% of cops are guilty of willing participation in a system whose purpose is to use state violence to prop up white supremacy.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:13 am UTC

natraj wrote:i mean, i don't think it's even slightly possible to abolish these systems in isolation, but they do not exist in isolation to begin with. i think if we want to work on abolishing the police & prisons, we first need to work on addressing the underlying factors that exacerbate violence. if we had a society that did not leave people to starve, push them into desperate positions where they had no idea how to keep a roof over their head or get a next meal, actually had good and comprehensive systems of healthcare & mental health care so that people could deal with issues like stress/violent inclinations/anger/depression in a context where they had a healthy support system and ways to productively manage it, actually addressed the rampant white supremacy that encourages men to express themselves through violence, &c, &c, that would in the first place reduce a lot of the root causes of crime.
This cuts to the core of the issue for me: Why do people commit crime? Particularly, why do they commit violent crime?

Our current model presumes that the reason is because criminals are inherently violent; they possess some intrinsic quality of violence that requires us to either forcibly remove this quality or isolate them so that they don't commit violence against the non-violent. This is, of course, nonsense. People who are intrinsically violent probably exist, but their numbers are so small that even mentioning their irrelevance borders on granting them more relevance than they deserve.

The more reasonable answer is because we exist in a society that teaches us to be violent -- both out of necessity and as a natural response to violence. People don't become violent criminals because they want to be violent criminals -- they become violent criminals because we don't permit them to exist as anything else.
Opus_723 wrote:Of course we'd have to compare those numbers to the expected increase in killings of civilians by cops. The demographics would be important, too, as in: even if more cops reduces murders on balance, is the net effect of an additional cop also shifting deaths from wealthy white people to impoverished minorities?

Even if cops unambiguously reduce murders (which I believe, but if someone has evidence otherwise please share), we should be very careful that we're not just setting an acceptable 'exchange rate' between the lives of different sorts of people. And if that's what we're doing, then people should absolutely scrutinize who is being allowed to define 'acceptable.'
Right, and I think another part of this is the sense of escalation: How does violence committed by police against civilians impact violence committed by civilians against civilians? I expect that the example set by police rapidly spills out into the general population.

At the very least, every black youth murdered by a police officer who gets off with a slap on the wrist (if that) is yet another drop in the bucket of "Violence Doesn't Matter When It Targets Black People".
ucim wrote:Cops aren't there to punish anybody. They are there to apprehend when necessary. It is the judicial system that deals with innocence or guilt, and any subsequent punishment, rehabilitation, or release. True, bad cops will do bad things, but the point I was disagreeing with was that literally, without exception, 100% of cops are Bad People who torture and ....
But is this how it works in practice re: division of labor? The police and judicial system are joined at the hip; this is an ongoing problem in the US justice system. One facilitates the punishments meted out by the other. That aside, as natraj points out -- people aren't saying 100% of police officers engage in torture. They're only saying that it's impossible to be a police officer and also be morally righteous. Not unless you're secretly releasing every person you arrest and working to completely undermine the system you're part of (in which case, I suspect you won't last long in the system).

I don't know if I agree that there's literally no position that you can occupy as an officer of the law and not directly support the murder and enslavement of our civilian population, but I don't see the sentiment behind "All Cops Are Bastards" as achieving the same degree of absurdity as "All Republicans are evil", or "No Republican cares about the environment".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:37 am UTC

They are different kinds of statements, sure, but I'm pretty okay saying all Republicans are bad people, too.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:46 am UTC

Opposition to Trump is part of my definition for "Not-Evil Republican".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:55 am UTC

As an optimistic nihilist, I'm offended that the sociopathic Republicans are being called "nihilistic" partisan hacks.

As for "nihilistic partisan hacks" that dont care as long as their party does well, I'd say that's 80% of both parties. Wait, that's wrong, iron law of institutions; 80% of both parties would gladly sabotage their own party's power for extra power within the party.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:03 am UTC

I'm pretty okay saying 80% of Democrats are also bad people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:56 am UTC

It seems to be that if you're replacing the police we have with some other system of redressing violent behavior that does a better job of that than the current system while also not doing the bad things that the current system enables, that that isn't so much abolishing police, but improving police. I'm pretty sure that when you say "get rid of all the cops", most listeners are going to hear "let's not have any criminal justice system at all", not "let's have an alternate criminal justice system".

I'm an anarchist myself, and of course most people hear that and think I want there to be no government, which as anyone actually educated in political philosophy knows is false: I want there to be no state, no monopoly on the use of force. I think (like most anarchists, besides anarcho-pacifists) that sometimes the use of force is okay, such as to counteract other, illegitimate uses of force, but that that whether or not it's okay doesn't depend on who does it but on how its done in what context and so on. That use of force will constitute governance, but if there's not a monopoly on it, then that's not a state, and so is still anarchy.

Anarchy is compatible with governance, and (to finally get to the point of the above paragraph) I like to say that "anarchy is the limit of good governance", where "limit" is in the mathematical sense of something that a series converges to. Take any government, even the one we have now, and change it bit by bit so that it does more good (like actually protecting people from violence) and less bad (like committing violence itself), and eventually you will have stateless governance -- anarchy.

Coming back around to the point of all of that: the alternate justice systems being described here aren't the absence of police, any more than anarchy is the absence of governance. They're just better police, just like anarchy is just better governance.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:51 am UTC

If the police are replaced with something that functions completely differently from any existing police force, it's reasonable to call that abolition.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:21 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:If the police are replaced with something that functions completely differently from any existing police force, it's reasonable to call that abolition.
I'd also add that most pro-abolishment folks probably wouldn't want a solution that requires a persistent team of operatives trained to enforce laws with violence. Which is, y'know -- pretty much the definition of a "police force".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:54 am UTC

Thesh wrote:There are no Republicans who value human life in any form.
On the contrary, almost every republican values human life immensely, to the exclusion of all other forms of life ...

... including those 7.6 milliard other hominid life-forms with whom he or she is obliged to share the planet.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Kit. » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:35 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Our current model presumes that the reason is because criminals are inherently violent; they possess some intrinsic quality of violence that requires us to either forcibly remove this quality or isolate them so that they don't commit violence against the non-violent. This is, of course, nonsense. People who are intrinsically violent probably exist, but their numbers are so small

I'd say their numbers are about 100% of the human population. The number of hypocrites that think that they are not is not much smaller.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:17 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:If the police are replaced with something that functions completely differently from any existing police force, it's reasonable to call that abolition.

Well, but it could function like the body that lots of other countries call "the police" (or its appropriate cognate). So it's not different from any existing police force, just apparently from any in the US.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:20 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:I'd say their numbers are about 100% of the human population. The number of hypocrites that think that they are not is not much smaller.


im really sorry you have such a negative view of the world, but it's not actually born out by how humans behave. certainly it's in the best interest of those who already have power to convince us that, without the threat of constant violence to stem it, everyone would act like it's lord of the flies/the purge and go about raping and killing. in actual situations where regular current social structure has broken down (you see this after disaster, frequently) the vast majority of people don't turn to violence and mutual aid rises.

it's hard, of course, to isolate this right now from the overall pressures of the world we live in, so it's not like this is Hard Scientific Data since we can't really study how people would behave in modern day america if our entire society was built from the ground up not to expect state violence as a "protective" or law enforcement measure. so often a second thing that we see working in disaster areas here is a) lots of people either harmlessly, nonviolently just trying to survive, b) lots of people banding together to help each other, c) a much, much smaller group of people, often the police themselves and in more recent times also groups of literal white supremacists, coming in to the area for the express purpose of doing violence to the people trying to help. the number of times that state power has been called in not to help but to do things like steal medical supplies, food, etc, from people actually providing aid is ridiculous. (speaking as someone who has provided medical aid in several distaster zones.)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:09 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:There are no Republicans who value human life in any form.

I understand that hyperbole is the language of the internet, but this is taking it pretty far. Seriously, protecting one specific form of human life is a very central part of their platform.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:15 pm UTC

natraj wrote:it's a good thing that nobody was saying that 100% of cops torture anyone then. what we are saying is that 100% of cops are guilty of willing participation in a system whose purpose is to use state violence to prop up white supremacy.
There are no whites in prison? The quote is:
Thesh wrote:That said, ACAB is absolutely true in America (it's impossible to be a good cop if you enforce our laws and send people to our prisons).
Subsequent discussion had Thesh claim that this was literally true and not hyperbole:
Thesh wrote:]I mean it literally. There is not a single one. If you send someone to prison, you participate in slavery and torture.
That's close enough. Thesh was saying that, and others are agreeing. And they've explicitly said that this is literally the case.

It's not.

Your experience may be bad, even 100% bad, but anecdote is not data. In fact, this isn't even anecdote; it's definition, and as such does not describe anything. It's Trump-think. Replace "cops" with "caravan".

Pfhorrest wrote:...sometimes the use of force is okay, such as to counteract other, illegitimate uses of force, but that that whether or not it's okay doesn't depend on who does it but on how its done in what context and so on.
And who's to say whether or not it's okay? What if Fred thinks it's ok but Albert does not? And Alice thinks it's really ok, and Susan really does not. This begins to look like the US political system, except that in this case nobody ever wins elections, and Dems and Reps are just running around like nazis and antifa with nobody able to effectively say "Cool it!"

It's well and good you envision a situation where "that doesn't happen", but it does happen, and there needs to be a mechanism to deal with it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:21 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
natraj wrote:it's a good thing that nobody was saying that 100% of cops torture anyone then. what we are saying is that 100% of cops are guilty of willing participation in a system whose purpose is to use state violence to prop up white supremacy.
There are no whites in prison?


ah yes that's exactly what that means, excellent critical thinking skills
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:26 pm UTC

ucim wrote:There are no whites in prison?

I haven't been involved in the rest of this discussion but that is such a ridiculous, stupid way to think about this. You really can't think of examples of white people harmed by white supremacy?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:34 pm UTC

@ucim

You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say all cops torture, I said that if you send someone to prison you are participating in slavery and torture. This is inherent in our prison system, and by design.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:41 pm UTC

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:12 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:@ucim

You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say all cops torture, I said that if you send someone to prison you are participating in slavery and torture. This is inherent in our prison system, and by design.
You said it's impossible to be a cop and be a good person. Not in the sense of hyperbole, but in the literal 100% no exceptions sense. Also, cops don't send people to prison. That's just not what they do, that's what a judge does.

The business of "participating in slavery and torture", again taken (as you said) literally and not as hyperbole is as ridiculous as saying "just by having a job that pays a salary you are participating in the torture and repression of poor people." I mean, literally breathing does this if you string things out enough, and you've already strung things out enough.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:33 pm UTC

I can't live my life without participating in capitalism. I can live my entire life without putting anyone in prison or throwing people out of their homes. I have, in fact.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:39 pm UTC

Wait, so like if a cop makes up a crime*, and sends a person to jail, it's still the judge's fault? Aren't you underestimating how much control a cop has over who goes to jail?
ucim wrote:
Thesh wrote:@ucim

You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say all cops torture, I said that if you send someone to prison you are participating in slavery and torture. This is inherent in our prison system, and by design.
You said it's impossible to be a cop and be a good person. Not in the sense of hyperbole, but in the literal 100% no exceptions sense. Also, cops don't send people to prison. That's just not what they do, that's what a judge does.

The business of "participating in slavery and torture", again taken (as you said) literally and not as hyperbole is as ridiculous as saying "just by having a job that pays a salary you are participating in the torture and repression of poor people." I mean, literally breathing does this if you string things out enough, and you've already strung things out enough.

Jose

Ucim, When the KKK was lynching blacks, how far does the chains of blame and evil would you go? Guy with the noose, is obvious. What about the guy burning a cross? The crowd in uniform cheering him on? The guy who sends money to them? The friends and family of kkk members who say "well there's bad apples but I know some good people in there"? Legitimate question.

*More accurately, picks on minorities more often.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:41 pm UTC

Bullshit. If you are desperate for joining a communist society without private property ownership, there's the Twin Oaks Community that'll readily accept you, to say nothing of the various freegan-like societies throughout the world.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:47 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Wait, so like if a cop makes up a crime*, and sends a person to jail, it's still the judge's fault? Aren't you underestimating how much control a cop has over who goes to jail?


The cops have discretion not to arrest. They have the ability to talk to people and figure out how to resolve the situation without an arrest. In cases with mandatory sentences, the cops may have more power than the judges, but otherwise the judge has a lot of latitude and is also responsible. In the end, the police, judges and prosecutors are directly responsible for sending people to jail. What matters is what the expected result of the actions of each person involved in the arrest, prosecution, and sentencing.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:48 pm UTC

cu it's hilarious that you think joining twin oaks or similar actually is like a get out of capitalism free card, that's not remotely how it works. we build communities like twin oaks as a way to survive and be less harmed under capitalism but it's so fucking stupid to think that that gets you out of it entirely that i don't even really know how to respond to that depth of obtuseness. do you think people who live at twin oaks never have to go buy food, cars, medicine, etc from the rest of the world? what do you think would happen if people living in these intentional communities just stopped paying their rent/mortgages etc?

(this is to say nothing of the immense dumbassery involved in thinking that the existence of a scant handful of radical intentional communities means that everyone has the ability to just divest from capitalism, like, no, not everyone can join places like that even if they were magical capitalism-free fantasy lands, which they are not. but there aren't nearly enough of them to pretend that's an option for everyone EVEN IF every given person was also magically released from all other constraints and obligations that prevent most of us from just packing up our whole ass lives and leaving)
Last edited by natraj on Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:50 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Also, cops don't send people to prison. That's just not what they do, that's what a judge does.
Why do people keep talking about gun control? Guns don't kill people. That's just not what they do; that's what a bullet does.

Screw gun control; we ought to be talking about bullet control.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:03 pm UTC

ucim wrote:You said it's impossible to be a cop and be a good person. Not in the sense of hyperbole, but in the literal 100% no exceptions sense. Also, cops don't send people to prison. That's just not what they do, that's what a judge does.


Sure they do. And judges do too. Lawmakers who made stuff illegal in the first place. Lots of people get involved in sending someone to prison.

The way the laws are written and the way they're poorly understood by everyone - including the police - led to a recent incident where I had to carefully explain to a cop that while I could do what they wanted, what they wanted was illegal and as such, I wouldn't do it for them. But I had legal alternatives that accomplished the same goal, so huzzah there.

Because the cop in question literally didn't know the law well enough to know what was asked was illegal. Admittedly in a "Yo ho Pirate Bay" sort of illegality, but still. Laws are laws and cops don't know all the laws.

There's other commentary out there about how the cops don't have to have a reason to arrest you because they can find one. Not even in a malicious "They'll make something up" sort of way - that so much shit is illegal for no damned reason that they can hold you on charges as inevitably something you were doing was illegal.

Compound on to that the whole thing about you cannot escape racial profiling as a 5 year old where you have well-meaning teachers who identify white children as being energetic and rambunctious but black children as aggressive and defiant for the exact same behaviors, leading to them receiving more punishment for behaviors and being identified up the chain as troublemakers so that their next teachers already don't like them much before they even set foot in class - leading to MORE punishment, up to and including identification to law enforcement as they age where they then get arrested and a criminal record for behaviors that white students engage in with only a verbal warning.

It's pretty much a circular reasoning fallacy at that point - we know Johnny's badly behaved because he's always in trouble for bad behavior, so let's make sure we punish his even slightly bad behavior as quickly and harshly as possible so he learns to not behave badly, especially as he's received such punishment in the past. We know he deserves it because he's had it before, so he must deserve more.

At no point is the behavior objectively identified as generic tomfoolery, reasons for the behavior aren't discussed (such as.. y'know.. an 8 year old being a fuckin' 8 year old) and you end up with a teenage miscreant who's spent more time in detention than class for shit classmates have also done but received little to no punishment. And those are good kids - we know, because they've not had detention.

Despite all of them doing the same kid-level goofing off shit.

... Got a bit rambly there.

Anyway, my point being that Cops are just a tool in the process - Lawmakers criminalize certain acts favored by minorities because they're favored by minorities (like weed, as an example), cops go after minorities more than whites for violation of those laws, judges can only try people brought before them.

Cops absolutely have the discretion to arrest or not arrest. And every time they arrest, especially for noncrimes (loitering, noise complaints, “vandalism” when nothing was damaged, etc) they push the individual arrested closer to prison.

Why else would 15 year old black boys be dangerous adults with criminal records and 28 year old white rapists be “boys who made one little mistake”

This also works along economic backgrounds as well.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:09 pm UTC

natraj wrote:cu it's hilarious that you think joining twin oaks or similar actually is like a get out of capitalism free card, that's not remotely how it works. we build communities like twin oaks as a way to survive and be less harmed under capitalism but it's so fucking stupid to think that that gets you out of it entirely that i don't even really know how to respond to that depth of obtuseness. do you think people who live at twin oaks never have to go buy food, cars, medicine, etc from the rest of the world?


I was under the impression they grew their own food and lived close enough to each other they didn't need cars. Medicine is slightly different, but most of those folks tend to distrust "western medicine" to begin with.

As for larger examples, I believe the Amish accept converts. For the most part they are independent of the "capitalist" system, although they do depend slightly upon steel and other metals, but otherwise are perfectly capable of creating societies completely independent of the outside world. Many choose to interact with the outside world, however, because money is just too useful even if in the anarcho-primitivist society that is the Amish.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:17 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Wait, so like if a cop makes up a crime
...then the cop has committed a crime. They may be in a better position to get away with it, but it is still a crime.
sardia wrote:*More accurately, picks on minorities more often.
That's not "making up a crime". It would depend on whether or not the minorities in question actually commit crimes equally more often. And if it is the case that there is unwarranted systemic bias, then yes, that is a problem in policing.
sardia wrote: When the KKK was lynching blacks, how far does the chains of blame and evil would you go? [...]? Legitimate question.
I'd say in the modern day Trump holds a lot of the blame for the recent spate, by virtue of his position and his mouth. People in the middle, not so much. People on the effective end (those that pull the trigger) yes, blame lies there.

Trump is in command. The one with the gun made the decision. The ones in the middle have less ability to influence the result. Things are nuanced, not absolute. That's why I take issue with statements like "cops are 100% evil, literally".

Thesh wrote:The cops have discretion not to arrest. They have the ability to talk to people and figure out how to resolve...
Indeed. That is part of the art of policing, and to that there are good cops, and bad cops, and everything in between. But in the end, they don't put people in jail, despite the fact that they have the ability to keep people from being put in jail (by not arresting).

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EDIT:
SecondTalon wrote:...Lots of people get involved in sending someone to prison....
Right. But it is the judge that ultimately makes the decision. The statement I'm arguing against is "100% of cops are Bad People; no exceptions, literally". Why pick on cops? Would you say that of judges? "100% of judges are Bad People, no exceptions, literally", because they (also) participate in this same system of "torture and slavery"? It's TrumpSpeak and I'm calling it out.

Jose
Last edited by ucim on Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:24 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:20 pm UTC

ucim wrote:...then the cop has committed a crime.

I'm not a huge disband the police or ACAB sort of guy, but your assumption that all cops are pure and angelic and the only ones who commit crimes (and that they just may be in a better position to get away with it) are lone wolves who are outside the norm shows you have a gross misunderstanding of how the police actually functions as a whole.

Trump is in command. The one with the gun made the decision. The ones in the middle have less ability to influence the result. Things are nuanced, not absolute. That's why I take issue with statements like "cops are 100% evil, literally".

They were just following orders!
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