The Truth

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

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Postby Owijad » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm UTC

Aye, that it was.

As stand-up comic Dan Naturman put it: "What, you ladies don't believe me? I'll have sex with you right now."
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Postby hyperion » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:29 am UTC

i don't get the 0.999...=1 thing. doesn't that mean that f(x)=1/x will be x=0 at some point? it's the same thing imo
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Postby damienthebloody » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:22 pm UTC

it's similar, but there is an important, subtle difference that i'm currently too tired to explain - it's along the lines of 1/x = 0 being a limit that you approach, while .9 repeated is just notation for a rational number that you aren't approaching, you're already at (the value of which you can establish with algebra, as has been done earlier in the thread). i hope that makes sense - i'm currently buggered and in no state to really answer questions.

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Postby Hawknc » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:25 pm UTC

Sorta, but not really (I think). You can mathematically prove 0.999...=1, as was proved earlier in this thread, but 1/0 has no mathematical definition (or we could use the term I've coined for it completely by myself - "undefined").
Really really close doesn't mean equal to.

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Postby damienthebloody » Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:34 pm UTC

where did 1/0 come from?

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Postby Hawknc » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:46 pm UTC

Well, he said f(x) = 1/x and x = 0, maybe I interpreted it wrong.

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Postby hyperion » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:53 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:Well, he said f(x) = 1/x and x = 0, maybe I interpreted it wrong.
as in a reciprocal function, where the line doesn't actually reach x=0, but just gets infinitely close. which i figure is the same as 0.99...=1
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But I digress.

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Postby Owijad » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:27 pm UTC

0.99999... etc is the loneliest number that you'll ever do...
1.99999... etc can be as bad as 0.99999... etc, it's the loneliest number since the number 0.99999...
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Postby damienthebloody » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:25 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:Well, he said f(x) = 1/x and x = 0, maybe I interpreted it wrong.


i thought he meant f(x) = 1/x approaches y = 0 as x grows infinitely large.

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Postby Likpok » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:46 pm UTC

1/x as x approaches zero doesn't work in the same way, I think, because infinity is not a number. It's value gets arbitrarily large as x gets small, but there is still an infinitely large distance between f(small) and infinity.

0.999... is just the sum of a geometric series.
where the nth term is .9 / 10 ^ n
where n goes from n to infinity
or in sigma notation:

Code: Select all

infinity
-----
\       .9
 \     ----
 /        n
/      10
-----
n = 0
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Postby Rat » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:00 pm UTC

Thread Title wrote:The Truth


we're going to vegas, to croak a scag bearer named savage henry.. whyyyy? because ive known him for years but he ripped us off... and you know what that means, right?!

savage henry, has cashed his check... and we're gonna rip his lungs out!

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Postby SpitValve » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:04 pm UTC

Limit as x goes to infinity of 1/x is zero.

Limit as x goes to infinity of the sum from 1 to x of (9/10^x) is 1.

i.e. 0.999... = 1 and 1/999... = 0

These numbers are defined as the limit of their respective sequence/series.

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Postby Teaspoon » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:55 am UTC

0.999... could be defined as the limit of 1-1/10^x as x approaches infinity. If we then say y=10^x (which allows for y-> infinity as x-> infinity), we can even declare that 0.999 is equal to the limit of 1-1/y. We know 1/y approaches zero as y approaches infinity, so 0.999=1-0=1.

I don't think I've seen that description before, and I think it's actually more convincing than most of the others.

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Postby Akira » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:57 am UTC

I believe this has a connection to the eternal distance halving.

At some point, it's close enough that it honestly dosen't matter anymore, but people will continue to pick it apart, ne?
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Postby SpitValve » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:29 am UTC

LilyoftheShadow wrote:I believe this has a connection to the eternal distance halving.

At some point, it's close enough that it honestly dosen't matter anymore, but people will continue to pick it apart, ne?


No.

You're talking about 1/(2^x) as (integer) x becomes very large. It is never equal to zero. It does become "quite small" in some sense (but small compared to what?) and a physicist might call it negligible, but a mathmatician would not say it was ever equal to zero.

However, the limit of 1/(2^x) as x goes towards infinity is _exactly_ equal to zero.

The limit is the value that the sequence or series approaches but never actually reaches. Numbers such as 0.999... are not defined as any particular value in the series - instead they're defined as the _limit_ of the series, and that's why they have exact values, e.g. 0.999...=1.

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Postby damienthebloody » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:16 am UTC

SpitValve wrote:
LilyoftheShadow wrote:I believe this has a connection to the eternal distance halving.

At some point, it's close enough that it honestly dosen't matter anymore, but people will continue to pick it apart, ne?


No.

You're talking about 1/(2^x) as (integer) x becomes very large. It is never equal to zero. It does become "quite small" in some sense (but small compared to what?) and a physicist might call it negligible, but a mathmatician would not say it was ever equal to zero.

However, the limit of 1/(2^x) as x goes towards infinity is _exactly_ equal to zero.

The limit is the value that the sequence or series approaches but never actually reaches. Numbers such as 0.999... are not defined as any particular value in the series - instead they're defined as the _limit_ of the series, and that's why they have exact values, e.g. 0.999...=1.

those were exactly the words i was looking for last night.

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Postby German Sausage » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:58 am UTC

rat, you are my hero. i knew i was doing the right thing when i gave you that award!
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Postby Akira » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:11 pm UTC

SpitValve wrote:
LilyoftheShadow wrote:I believe this has a connection to the eternal distance halving.

At some point, it's close enough that it honestly dosen't matter anymore, but people will continue to pick it apart, ne?


No.

You're talking about 1/(2^x) as (integer) x becomes very large. It is never equal to zero. It does become "quite small" in some sense (but small compared to what?) and a physicist might call it negligible, but a mathmatician would not say it was ever equal to zero.

However, the limit of 1/(2^x) as x goes towards infinity is _exactly_ equal to zero.

The limit is the value that the sequence or series approaches but never actually reaches. Numbers such as 0.999... are not defined as any particular value in the series - instead they're defined as the _limit_ of the series, and that's why they have exact values, e.g. 0.999...=1.


Yup. You lost me.

:cry: Now leave my basic high-school-math brain alone.

Lol.
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Postby Peshmerga » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:36 pm UTC

LilyoftheShadow wrote:
SpitValve wrote:
LilyoftheShadow wrote:I believe this has a connection to the eternal distance halving.

At some point, it's close enough that it honestly dosen't matter anymore, but people will continue to pick it apart, ne?


No.

You're talking about 1/(2^x) as (integer) x becomes very large. It is never equal to zero. It does become "quite small" in some sense (but small compared to what?) and a physicist might call it negligible, but a mathmatician would not say it was ever equal to zero.

However, the limit of 1/(2^x) as x goes towards infinity is _exactly_ equal to zero.

The limit is the value that the sequence or series approaches but never actually reaches. Numbers such as 0.999... are not defined as any particular value in the series - instead they're defined as the _limit_ of the series, and that's why they have exact values, e.g. 0.999...=1.


Yup. You lost me.

:cry: Now leave my basic high-school-math brain alone.

Lol.


Basically, the infinite half step is solved and explained through calculus.
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Postby Akira » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:40 pm UTC

Peshmerga wrote:
LilyoftheShadow wrote:
SpitValve wrote:
LilyoftheShadow wrote:I believe this has a connection to the eternal distance halving.

At some point, it's close enough that it honestly dosen't matter anymore, but people will continue to pick it apart, ne?


No.

You're talking about 1/(2^x) as (integer) x becomes very large. It is never equal to zero. It does become "quite small" in some sense (but small compared to what?) and a physicist might call it negligible, but a mathmatician would not say it was ever equal to zero.

However, the limit of 1/(2^x) as x goes towards infinity is _exactly_ equal to zero.

The limit is the value that the sequence or series approaches but never actually reaches. Numbers such as 0.999... are not defined as any particular value in the series - instead they're defined as the _limit_ of the series, and that's why they have exact values, e.g. 0.999...=1.


Yup. You lost me.

:cry: Now leave my basic high-school-math brain alone.

Lol.


Basically, the infinite half step is solved and explained through calculus.


Evidently. O_o; *opted out of pre-calc* I only made it to AlgIII before I said "no more, I beg of you!"

Numbers aren't my thing, I'll admit up front. Lol
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Re:

Postby endolith » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:42 am UTC

Oort wrote:However, I have doubts about the airplane one. If it matched the speed of the wheels, the plane would not move relative to the atmosphere, which is the important part.


Sure it would. :) If the treadmill were fast enough and long enough and wide enough. You don't even need the engine to be running. Due to the no-slip condition, a layer of air would be pulled along by the treadmill's surface. Since the plane has inertia and low-friction wheels, it would remain in the same spot while the air moving past it accelerates faster. Then the plane would take off, but it couldn't go anywhere, since the air velocity drops off as you move away from the surface. Eventually it would crash, but it could still take off.

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Re:

Postby Spoffin » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:12 am UTC

Narsil wrote:...why would mathematics bother distinguishing them?

It doesn't.
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Re: The Truth

Postby Mister_Penguin » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:12 am UTC

For kicks and giggles, I looked up the wikipedia page on Zeno's paradox.
After reading the talk page, I have an intense urge to punch someone in the genitals.
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Re:

Postby ParanoidDrone » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:06 am UTC

Holy necrobump Batman?

While we're here, though, I'd like to point out that...

SpitValve wrote:The limit is the value that the sequence or series approaches but never actually reaches. Numbers such as 0.999... are not defined as any particular value in the series - instead they're defined as the _limit_ of the series, and that's why they have exact values, e.g. 0.999...=1.

...this was highly enlightening. I kept trying to imagine .9999... as an actual number, but defining it as a limit and not the precise decimal value makes it a lot clearer.
Insert witty phrase here.

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Re:

Postby the_bandersnatch » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:27 am UTC

SpitValve wrote:Numbers such as 0.999... are not defined as any particular value in the series - instead they're defined as the _limit_ of the series, and that's why they have exact values, e.g. 0.999...=1.


I see what you're saying here, and it makes sense in a way, why should we define a number as the limit of the series and not the exact value? I thought maths was all about defining exact values?

And I've spotted what I believe to be a flaw in the reasoning on that website that was linked (http://qntm.org/?pointnine):

"But 0.0000... should have a 1 at the end!"

No, it shouldn't. "0.0000...1" is meaningless. The "..." means the zeros go on forever. "Forever" means "without end". There IS no end for the final 1 to go on.


It seems to me here he's just changed the goalposts - he might be correct in saying that in the real world "there is no end for the final one to go on", but in maths we can still refer to the infinite sequence of zeroes between the decimal point and the final digit and then do stuff with it. To me, that's one of the fundamental ways mathematics works. We could even assign that infinite sequence of zeroes a notational symbol and work from there. (As an example, in the real world the square root of -1 does not exist, but we can still assign it a symbol within the framework of our mathematics and go from there).
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Re: The Truth

Postby mrbaggins » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:38 am UTC

But you're trying to redefine an 'infinitely long string of something' as something else.

Whereas relabeling sqrt(-1) as an algebraic quantity is just the same as "Let x = 1"

Sure, there's a whole subset of maths based on it, but it's not the same.

And how much can you really do to an infinitely long string of zero's without changing its' value?

Out of interests sake, the "One at the end of the zero's" argument I like to refute with:
"You have an infinitely long piece of string. I tied a knot at the end of it. Took a while to get back."
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Re: The Truth

Postby arcticfox.sq » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:05 am UTC

The plane would take off because how fast it goes and whether it moves at all does not depend on the wheels. A PLANE IS NOT THE SAME AS A BIG CAR WITH WINGS. They go because the engines power the fans (in the wings). Thus no matter what is under it it will move, that is, unless the wheels are so full of friction it takes more power than the engines can provide to lift it. So no power (or very very little, I'm not sure about the detailed workings) goes towards turning the wheels, the wheels only turn because the engine is pulling the wings forwards, thus pulling the plane forwards. Add a treadmill and all you have is the wheels turning at the speed of the plane relative to the ground plus the speed of treadmill relative to the ground. The speed of the plane would not be affected at all (except that the wheels aren't perfectly frictionless, so it slows down a tiny amount).

Also, Believe it or Not did this with a giant taupe pulled by a truck. It worked. Science wins.

Edited for silly
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Re: The Truth

Postby Hawknc » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:33 am UTC

It's that time again already?

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Re: The Truth

Postby the_bandersnatch » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:47 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:It's that time again already?


Yes. Yes it is.
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Re: The Truth

Postby mrbaggins » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:05 pm UTC

arcticfox.sq wrote:The plane would not take off...


This line and the rest of your post are completely at odds at one another, so either you're joking or the 'not' was a mistake.
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Re: The Truth

Postby Hawknc » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:08 pm UTC

I don't really want to get into this argument again, but arcticfox's argument seems consistent with the conclusion that the aircraft won't take off.

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Re: The Truth

Postby mrbaggins » Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:12 pm UTC

Thus no matter what is under it it will move

The speed of the plane would not be affected at all


Both these lines show the plane moving forward, and this forward momentum means the plane will take off.
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Re: The Truth

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:13 pm UTC

Goddamn it, they did it on Mythbusters. Are two special effects Jesters performing tricks for you not good enough?
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Re: The Truth

Postby endolith » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:41 pm UTC

arcticfox.sq wrote:The plane would not take off because how fast it goes and whether it moves at all does not depend on the wheels. A PLANE IS NOT THE SAME AS A BIG CAR WITH WINGS. They go because the engines power the fans (in the wings).


And thus, the plane would take off.

But even without an engine, the plane could still take off if the wheels were frictionless enough and the conveyor belt had a huge surface area and started very quickly, due to the boundary layer and the no-slip condition.

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Re: The Truth

Postby elminster » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:26 pm UTC

I thought about the plane on the treadmill situation as follows:

Given the most simplistic model of it then the hinging factor is the friction within the wheel bearings. Disregarding the point at which tires don't make contact with the surface and assuming they don't skid, as well as perfect integrity among every component... the bearings are the only place where the 2 forces (From the engines and the treadmill) directly interact. In an interpretation, you could assume the question is closer to whether the treadmill can or cannot stop a plane taking off.
Then the answer would be: If there is friction, there will always be a speed (Given were not limited by speed of light in this model) at which the treadmill can run to cause the plane to be relatively motionless. If there is no friction, then there will never be a speed at which the treadmill can run to stop the plane taking off.

If it were taken with the interpretation that the treadmill would match the same speed, then it depends on the force that the engines are able to produce relative to the friction in the bearings. It's kind of complicated since the model brings in the concept of infinite power, especially when both forces are considered infinitely powerful. Then essentially you're boiling down to the difference between infinity and infinity multiplied by the effect of the bearings, which doesn't make sense.

Given another model of simply you pushing a cube across a desk. If you started out pushing the block at 1m/s, if somehow the friction steadily increased, eventually you wouldn't be strong enough to overcome the force.
The level of ambiguity in the question doesn't help. I'm sure if it were put in a simple model it would be easy. Also my piss-poor explanation an analogies of what I was thinking doesn't help. I really do suck at explaining my ideas all that well.

1/0 = Undefined. Just because it's simple and just because you can use standard notation doesn't mean its meaningful.
0.999 reoccurring = 1. Just because the symbols are different, doesn't mean it can't denote the same concept and just because it uses symbols which would individually imply that it can't be the same, doesn't mean as a whole it is the same.
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Re: The Truth

Postby arcticfox.sq » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:07 am UTC

Oops, did I say not? This is what I get for trying to sound lucid at 5 am
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Re:

Postby TheCoelacanth » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:51 pm UTC

Andrew wrote:
Verysillyman wrote:
Owijad wrote:Various other issues aside, that only applies to girls. An attractive guy cannot be -nearly- as promiscuous as an attractive girl.


I want to disprove that.


Unless the girls in question are lesbians I think it's by definition untrue. (If you ignore the slight imbalance in gender across the population.)


The means have to be the same (assuming equal populations), but the most promiscuous don't have to be the same.

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Re: The Truth

Postby Robin S » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:17 pm UTC

Wasn't this thread created precisely to avoid the current one?
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

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Re:

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:15 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:you should read the god delusion, it turned me into truly atheist...

Funny that. It had the exact opposite effect on me - I concluded there must be a God because I couldn't bear to live in a universe where Richard Dawkins would be right.

I started out the book keeping count of the known dodgy rhetorical tricks, logic errors and standard fallacies and gave up before completing the first page of the introduction - I forget what the count was at that point, but it was more than 3...

Some years ago, I saw a TV program where Richard Dawkins was put in a room with a fanatical fundamentalist Christian of some description. You had to pay close attention to the content of their dialogue to tell the two apart.

Seriously, while the arguments of a fundamentalist atheist like Dawkins are great at helping existing confirmed atheists feel smug, I'd no more suggest using them to try to convince a non-atheist that there is no God than I'd suggest using Chick Tracts to convince a pen-and-paper role-player than D&D is the recruitment tool of satanism, or getting Jack Thompson to convince someone that playing video games sends people on real-life killing sprees...

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Re: The Truth

Postby Daimon » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:08 am UTC

.................
Last edited by Daimon on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:48 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.


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