guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

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goku77
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guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby goku77 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:29 am UTC

ok this situation is pretty crazy so let me explain it

k so i used to live in ontario and i knew this girl in high school. we totally had a crush on eachother but neither of us knew it because we didn't say anything. guys don't make that mistake seriously. so it wasn't until after high school that we found out about this and then we like totally loved eachother but then i had to move away.

so like we still love eachother but we're like 1000 miles apart now so we can only really talk online. but we've made up plans to see eachother since i'm going there to visit in a few months. now things get kinda crazy. i found out she met some other guy. she told me herself so it wasn't like she was cheating or something. but she said she thought he was a really nice guy but she was wrong and now she doesn't know what to do. like she wants me a lot more than him but he's a lot more accessible.

i know these situations usually end badly and i should just give up but i can't, i love her too much and she says she still loves me too so basically i've been just trying to win her over and make more convenient arrangements to be together. i figured i don't mind if she's sleeping with this other guy in the meantime as long as that's all it is, because i sure as hell can't satisfy those needs over 1000 miles.

but the problem isn't about the relationship itself. she told me today she thinks he got her pregnant. says she's a week late and positve on a home test. nobody else knows except me and her. says she'll tell him on thursday. i want to help but i'm way over here so i can't really do a lot. she has no idea what to do. she's like 20 years old and lives with her mom. i seriously doubt she's prepared for this. abortion is legal there but of course that's a big decision and she doesn't know yet if she wants to or not.

so i'm basically here in her place to ask for help. since she doesn't want anyone to know, she doesn't know how to post anonymous so i offered to do it for her and she said that'd be good. so i'll link her to this thread when i get the chance.

myself i love her more than i think most people are capable of loving but i'm also 20 living with my parents so i can hardly do anything to help besides this. i mean like if we were older and living on our own i'd give all the support i could, i wouldn't mind, we could move in together and i'd go along with it as if i were the father. but right now i neither can nor want to have a kid, i'm too young and broke. so i can't do that.

this isn't really about me, i'm just a medium, really just word your replies as if they were directed to her, i'll make sure she sees them. thanks.

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Re: guys i need help

Postby Durandal » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:37 am UTC

.
Last edited by Durandal on Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:11 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: guys i need help

Postby hermaj » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:40 am UTC

I think she needs to go to a doctor before you get too far ahead of yourselves. A week late is barely anything and home pregnancy tests aren't the most reliable things ever.

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Re: guys i need help

Postby btilly » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:56 am UTC

hermaj wrote:I think she needs to go to a doctor before you get too far ahead of yourselves. A week late is barely anything and home pregnancy tests aren't the most reliable things ever.

Uh, actually home pregnancy tests are reliable. The apparent unreliability is because a lot of pregnancies abort very, very quickly.

To the OP. Trust me. Do. Not. Volunteer. To. Raise. The. Kid.

You love her, but you don't know her well enough to make that choice. Yes, I can hear you saying that you talk all of the time and you do. But you've never lived together. You've never had to confront major disagreements. You don't know how well the two of you get along in a household. A kid is a lifetime commitment. And it isn't even yours.

As a father, I'm telling you that you don't know her well enough to make that decision. You may be willing to try it, but you can't really make the commitment.

As for her, she is pregnant and needs to make decisions, fast. There is no question that abortion is the most convenient answer. Whether it is the right answer depends on circumstances and feelings. Also you should be warned that people are often very bad at predicting how they'll feel about a choice like that. In any case abortions may take a while to schedule and babies develop fast. If she wants to abort, she should see the doctor sooner rather than later.

From the sounds of it, she doesn't want to raise the kid with the dad. (In hindsight, if she feels that way, she shouldn't have been taking those risks...) However even if she doesn't, he likely still owes the kid child support. Find out how much. It could make a difference. (If he's unwilling to pay that, well, he shouldn't have been taking those risks either...)

Another big question is how much help the parents will be. When faced with truly big crises, parents often react far more sanely than children give them credit for. I would suggest that she talks to her mom sooner rather than later. No matter what the relationship works for. If for no other reason than the fact that if this is going to work out, her mom is going to be a critical person in making it work out.

I hope this works out well in the end. Unfortunately these things often don't.
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Re: guys i need help

Postby ++$_ » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:24 am UTC

btilly wrote:Do. Not. Volunteer. To. Raise. The. Kid.
This. Raising a child takes 18 years of full-time work, MINIMUM. It also takes a huge amount of money. Neither of you should invest 18 years of your lives in a child that was forced upon you.

There are also other issues. What kind of person is the other guy? Will he turn controlling/violent when told that she wants an abortion? If so, and she does in fact want one, then DON'T TELL HIM ffs. Just do it and he'll never know, which is perfectly okay.

Advice: Make a telephone call now and talk it over by voice rather than by text message, if you haven't already. In the end, it is her decision what she wants to do. Your (the OP's) role is to listen, not to make the decision. As btilly said, it sounds like she does not want to raise the child with the father. It would be wrong for her to assume that she can raise it with you, and it would be a Bad Idea for you to volunteer. The options are adoption and abortion, basically. She should choose whichever. Abortion would be easier on the family dynamics, but it might be harder on your friend, or she might be morally opposed to it.

You have not met each other in person for a while according to your post. You both will have changed in that time, as evidenced by the fact that she is now having sex with someone else (even if that's not going to continue). Your conversations online and even over the phone are not a good barometer of the viability of your relationship. Therefore, do not make long-term decisions on the assumption that you will always be with each other. Even if you are, there may come a time when you look back and say "It was really stupid of us to decide to raise a child that belonged to only one of us, with a jerk-ass biological father harassing us for visiting rights all the time, with us having to haggle over child support payments, and having to suspend our career and education plans."

She should STRONGLY consider being tested for STDs.

Good luck. But remember: there is more to life than this problem. Do not spend all your time agonizing over it. Do not jeopardize everything else in your lives because of it.

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Re: guys i need help

Postby aleflamedyud » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:27 am UTC

To the OP. Trust me. Do. Not. Volunteer. To. Raise. The. Kid.

/me draws in a huge breath.

QFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFTQFT!!!!!!!!!!!

NEVER EVER volunteer to raise someone else's unplanned child. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you can save them from their own fuckups in life.
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Re: guys i need help

Postby '; DROP DATABASE;-- » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:35 am UTC

++$_ wrote:The options are adoption and abortion, basically.
Another possibility is to treat it as if it were her baby sibling. People would still know, obviously, but it would almost certainly be easier that way.
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Re: guys i need help

Postby goku77 » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:31 am UTC

no no i'm not volunteering to raise the kid. i'm saying like if i were older and were at the stage where i'd consider having a kid of my own, then i would. but right now there's no way it could work.

btilly: you're right about changing, i should mention though that we do video chat so we do have a pretty good idea of what sort of changes there have been.

Durandal: that's definitely been a question of mine for quite some time. i really don't know. she insists she does but at the same time she is still doing things with this guy. like she wants both or something. i don't really understand it either. it really does tear me up inside but i feel too strongly about her to just let her go, especially when she still acts as if it was just us two in chat. i really don't know what to think.

from what i've seen and heard of the guy he's a douchebag, but that's very little so i could be wrong. i don't know nearly enough about him to really say anything. emotion probably clouds my judgement pretty badly too, but many of the classic signs are there.

i'm not sure what you want me to clarify?

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Re: guys i need help

Postby ++$_ » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:24 am UTC

goku77 wrote: i really don't know. she insists she does but at the same time she is still doing things with this guy. like she wants both or something. i don't really understand it either. it really does tear me up inside but i feel too strongly about her to just let her go, especially when she still acts as if it was just us two in chat. i really don't know what to think.

from what i've seen and heard of the guy he's a douchebag, but that's very little so i could be wrong. i don't know nearly enough about him to really say anything. emotion probably clouds my judgement pretty badly too, but many of the classic signs are there.
Speaking of "classic signs..." Please, please don't fool yourself. If she is still doing things with "this guy," but she knows that this is going to be detrimental to your relationship (and that should be pretty damn clear by now), then your relationship is obviously no longer her priority.

Perhaps she keeps you around because Other Guy is a douche-bag and she can't really talk to him about Things, whereas you're a better friend. However, she hasn't been explicit about this, because that would be very painful for her.

If she really wants you, she needs to tell Other Guy to GTFO. And she needs to do that NOW. If she is not willing to do that, then either she does not want you enough, or Other Guy is holding her at gunpoint, which I doubt.

Make this clear.

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Re: guys i need help

Postby mandalynn » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:29 am UTC

I have to agree with pretty much everyone else. Why was she sleeping with a douchebag if she loves you? But I try not to be too judgmental, and I really don't have all the facts...and the question was not "should I be serious about this girl" but rather "what should she do" So...

If she is, in fact, pregnant, she needs to decide if she wants to raise the child. IMO, if she really wanted to, she'd find a way. Plenty of people do it. If she does not want to raise the child, the next option is abortion. That's a tough choice to make, and it's entirely her decision. If she decides against it, adoption is pretty much the only other option. Personally, I think it's a damn fine decision. She could even choose the couple she wants to give the baby to, and she could decide the level of involvement she wants to have.

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Re: guys i need help

Postby Bakemaster » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:34 pm UTC

++$_ wrote:She should STRONGLY consider being tested for STDs.

If she's been having unprotected sex and thinks she is pregnant, getting tested for STDs is not an option, it is an absolute necessity to ensure the health of the kid should she decide against abortion.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby hestia » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:06 pm UTC

There is another option for her, adoption. I apparently am in the minority on the board in being pro-life so I feel obligated to bring up this third option. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to push my own ideas on others, this is her choice to make. But if she is uncomfortable with abortion because of the moral implications, she could have it and put it up for adoption.
http://www.goldencradle.org/ is a fantastic organization and works with people all over the world. I have two friends who were adopted from this agency and the agency actually came and talked to us when I was in high school. The birth parents can have as little or as much say as they want in their child's lives and they get to pick the adoptive parents so if she goes with this option she can make sure her child is well cared for.

As for this other guy, one of my best friends is going through something similar right now. She is pregnant and the father has another girlfriend (the situation makes yours look simple). I doubt that this other girl is as awful as my friend makes her seem but the both of us are biased in that we think that the father should be there for his child in some regard. So although this guy might not be awesome or "the one" for her, don't assume that she doesn't really want anything to do with him because that is just setting yourself up to get hurt. You might be the better man but he is the father and she might has some feelings for him as a result.

Good luck with everything, babies seem to make the world rather complicated.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby space_raptor » Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:49 pm UTC

Just tell her you'll help her in any way you can.

Really you're 1000 miles away though. Tough to do anything through only video chat. I think all you can do is talk things through with her, when you're in a stressful situation like that it sometimes helps to have somebody to bounce stuff off of in order to figure it out. Might even be good for her since she doesn't see you in her daily life, sometimes it's nice to talk to someone on the outside.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby Bakemaster » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:11 pm UTC

msfayzer wrote:I apparently am in the minority on the board in being anti-choice...

Fix'd. If the above change offends you, consider how others might be offended by the phrase you used. It would be great if everyone could label themselves in terms of their position on the thing they're actually talking about, wouldn't it?
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby btilly » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:30 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:
msfayzer wrote:I apparently am in the minority on the board in being anti-choice...

Fix'd. If the above change offends you, consider how others might be offended by the phrase you used. It would be great if everyone could label themselves in terms of their position on the thing they're actually talking about, wouldn't it?

Actually she did label himself in terms of what she is talking about. What you did is exactly as unreasonable and unfair as her calling you anti-life or pro-abortion. And despite being pro-choice, I have far more respect for a polite pro-life supporter like her than I do for people like you.

She is pro-life. She values the life represented by a fetus and is against aborting that life. It is not that she doesn't value choice, it is that she places more value on that life. Describing her any other way is a dishonest misrepresentation.

By contrast you're pro-choice. That doesn't mean you think that abortion is a good thing. That does not mean you're against life. The pro-choice position is as opposed to, say, mandatory abortions (not a hypothetical example - they were used in China not long ago for population control) as they are to preventing access to abortions. Because it is the choice that you support, and you place more value on that than the life of a developing fetus.

The fact that you don't agree with someone doesn't mean that you have to lie about their belief system. Please keep that in mind in the future.

Edit: I hadn't paid any attention to the likely gender of msfayzer. Thanks to SecondTalon for the correction.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:31 pm UTC

.... MsFayzer is a She.

/just sayin'
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby Bakemaster » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:40 pm UTC

btilly wrote:What you did is exactly as unreasonable and unfair as his calling you anti-life or pro-abortion.

Isn't that what I said? They are equally offensive. I think you misunderstood my post; I guess I was unclear. The point I was trying to make is that when applying a label to discuss abortion rights, the most appropriate terms in which to couch that label would be your position on abortion rights. Not life, not choice, or belly buttons or coat hangers or etc. You are either pro-abortion rights or anti-abortion rights. Calling yourself "pro-life" or "pro-choice" is not a valiant stand for what you believe in; it's a cynical attack on the opposition, implying that they are "anti-life" or "anti-choice". It's a gross oversimplification of a complex issue and it offends me personally as someone who is pro-abortion rights.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:47 pm UTC

...adding rights on it does kinda color it as well. Granted, that is what it is, so maybe it's for the best. I don't know.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby btilly » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:52 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:
btilly wrote:What you did is exactly as unreasonable and unfair as his calling you anti-life or pro-abortion.

Isn't that what I said? They are equally offensive. I think you misunderstood my post; I guess I was unclear. The point I was trying to make is that when applying a label to discuss abortion rights, the most appropriate terms in which to couch that label would be your position on abortion rights. Not life, not choice, or belly buttons or coat hangers or etc. You are either pro-abortion rights or anti-abortion rights. Calling yourself "pro-life" or "pro-choice" is not a valiant stand for what you believe in; it's a cynical attack on the opposition, implying that they are "anti-life" or "anti-choice". It's a gross oversimplification of a complex issue and it offends me personally as someone who is pro-abortion rights.

No, it is not what you said. As may be seen from the fact that you are now acknowledging that it is unfair to call people anti-life and anti-choice, yet you called msfayzer anti-choice.

Had you called her "anti-abortion rights" in the first place, I would not have reacted as I did. Furthermore your hypocritical attempt to claim to have been saying something other than what you were saying has lowered my opinion of you even further.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby TheStranger » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:57 pm UTC

The very first thing is for her to go to a doctor and have her state confirmed (as has been stated it is possible that she is not pregnant). A doctor can also give clear medical advise regarding her options (the medical risks of abortion vs. carrying the child to term).

All you can do right now is listen to her, this is perhaps the most frightening experience of her life.

No matter what she choses (keep, give up for adoption, or abort) she should tell her mother, as well as the "other guy". Where you fit in can be decided later. If she decides to keep the child then you will have to chose where you fit in... are you willing to be a father for the child (because that is what will be required of you).

As to myself (and not to start the abortion debate here, I'm sure that there is a thread or four already devoted to this elsewhere) I strongly oppose abortion, and would hope that this girl choses to give the child up for adoption if she determines that she cannot keep it.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby Sarr » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:04 pm UTC

btilly wrote:No, it is not what you said. As may be seen from the fact that you are now acknowledging that it is unfair to call people anti-life and anti-choice, yet you called msfayzer anti-choice.

Had you called her "anti-abortion rights" in the first place, I would not have reacted as I did. Furthermore your hypocritical attempt to claim to have been saying something other than what you were saying has lowered my opinion of you even further.


Bakemaster wrote:
msfayzer wrote:I apparently am in the minority on the board in being anti-choice...

Fix'd. If the above change offends you, consider how others might be offended by the phrase you used. It would be great if everyone could label themselves in terms of their position on the thing they're actually talking about, wouldn't it?

Emphasis mine.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby silverwmoon » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:15 pm UTC

++$_ wrote:There are also other issues. What kind of person is the other guy? Will he turn controlling/violent when told that she wants an abortion? If so, and she does in fact want one, then DON'T TELL HIM ffs. Just do it and he'll never know, which is perfectly okay.

Um.. is that really perfectly okay? I mean it's his child too, would you not want to know if you had a child somewhere? Or could have?

If she's a week late I'd stay at least a little calm, if she's stressed about school or something that can affect her cycles. Even if she is pregnant there are quite a few ( estimted 1 in four or 1 in 5, pm if you want links, but I'm still new so I didn't want to post them. ) pregnancies that miscarry. Most miscarriages occur within the first 3 months also.

I agree with the suggestion that she talk it over with her mother. Parents can be a big help and even if they aren't, it's not usually worth the blow-up or stress from keeping them from knowing something that big. Seeing a Doctor (it is confidential if she's worried) will help give her a clearer picture about options and such.

Try to be there for her. I doubt this is an easy time for you and I suppose you need to chose your own role and path in there, but I'm betting she could really use a friend right now. Just try to stay calm, she does have some time to get used to this idea and to decide, try not to rush a decision.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby mspickle » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:22 pm UTC

I too hope she decides NOT to abort. Abortion is not easy and though it seems like an easy out, it is NOT- years of guilt and depression may follow. I have known countless people who regret having abortions. If you look at a 3-D sonogram you can see every detail of a baby, even at this stage. Please do not encourage her to abort.

I think it's admirable that you offer to help. I say yes, offer to help her. I would probably not offer to take on the whole role of father only because I am considering that she does not seem committed to you. However, as a friend, yes, yes, yes.

Adoption IS a wonderful option. How many here are adopted? Probably quite a few. Also, she may be in a place to be able to raise the child. The blessings far outweigh the burdens, overwhelming as it may seem.

I won't get into the semantics debate over "pro-life", etc. I consider myself opposed to abortion, only because I see what it is and know what it does both to the woman and the child.

I would be happy to help her out in any way I could. Let me know. (I am a woman.)

I wish you luck and will continue to follow your story. God bless.

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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby Solt » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:25 pm UTC

btilly wrote:No, it is not what you said. As may be seen from the fact that you are now acknowledging that it is unfair to call people anti-life and anti-choice, yet you called msfayzer anti-choice.

Had you called her "anti-abortion rights" in the first place, I would not have reacted as I did. Furthermore your hypocritical attempt to claim to have been saying something other than what you were saying has lowered my opinion of you even further.


You've really misunderstood what he said. He didn't actually call her anti-choice, he did it to demonstrate a point. That point is that using phrases like "pro-life" and "anti-choice" are not appreciated here because they automatically demonize the other side. It's essentially childish name calling. Think sarcasm. Try to read slower and more carefully next time, lest you misinterpret what someone is trying to say (again) and publicly embarrass yourself.


btilly wrote:The pro-choice position is as opposed to, say, mandatory abortions


what? I really don't think you meant to say that. The "pro-choice" position is in opposition to "no abortions, ever" aka "pro-life." It's giving mothers a 'choice' to have an abortion if they want. But it doesn't actually have anything to do with choice; choice is the slogan adopted by the supporters to point out why they support their side. The issue at heart is whether abortions should be legal.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby aeki » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:06 am UTC

Sold wrote:what? I really don't think you meant to say that. The "pro-choice" position is in opposition to "no abortions, ever" aka "pro-life." It's giving mothers a 'choice' to have an abortion if they want. But it doesn't actually have anything to do with choice; choice is the slogan adopted by the supporters to point out why they support their side. The issue at heart is whether abortions should be legal.


See, I don't think of it that way - to me the pro-choice movement is about people having individual control over their own reproductive systems without outside organizations forcing them to do one thing or the other, which includes forced abortions and forced sterilization as well as forcing women to complete pregnancies or keeping them from birth control. At this time, in this society, this movement comes against the political organizations that don't believe abortion should be used at all. The other facets of the pro-choice movement just don't come in to play because nobody in the United States is pushing a movement for forced abortion.

mspickle wrote:I too hope she decides NOT to abort. Abortion is not easy and though it seems like an easy out, it is NOT- years of guilt and depression may follow. I have known countless people who regret having abortions. If you look at a 3-D sonogram you can see every detail of a baby, even at this stage. Please do not encourage her to abort.


The key word is 'may'. Thousands of women have had abortions and not felt guilty or depressed at all. Thousands more have gone through with their pregnancies and felt guilt and depression because of postpartum issues or have later regretted their decision to have children because they weren't prepared for the time and energy and money it takes to raise a child to adulthood. It's really not a simple answer, and I hope goku77 can support her emotionally with whatever she decides to do if it turns out she is pregnant.

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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby Hammer » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:16 am UTC

Perhaps those of you who have decided that this is an appropriate thread in which to have the abortion debate could rethink. The OP has a problem. You can fight about abortion and the offensiveness of the current terminology attached to the various sides of said fight over in Serious Business.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby ++$_ » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:26 am UTC

silverwmoon wrote:
++$_ wrote:There are also other issues. What kind of person is the other guy? Will he turn controlling/violent when told that she wants an abortion? If so, and she does in fact want one, then DON'T TELL HIM ffs. Just do it and he'll never know, which is perfectly okay.

Um.. is that really perfectly okay? I mean it's his child too, would you not want to know if you had a child somewhere? Or could have?
I would want to know, but I also like to think that I'm not the controlling/violent type. What I'm saying is that if this guy is really a douche-bag, then his douche-baggery circuits should not be activated in the first place. If this means not telling him about the pregnancy, that's what has to be done.

In the end, it's always the woman's choice about whether to terminate the pregnancy (although if you're anti-abortion, you might say society at large has that right as well). In any case, one single other person doesn't have the right to tell you what to do with a part of your body for 9 months.

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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:42 am UTC

goku77 wrote:ok this situation is pretty crazy so let me explain it

There's a girl a thousand miles away I'm having an emotional relationship with, though she's banging some other dude. She got knocked up. Whoops! Now she's wondering what to do, and as her emotional boyfriend (and hey, since I'm filling that requirement, current guy doesn't have to do anything but stand there and look hot while he rogers her something fierce) it's apparently up to me to help her out in this situation even though I played no part in it's creation. Joy and happiness! She's wanting to know what to do, and I'm wanting to be the big brave hero and rush off and make a huge goddamn mistake, even bigger if I actually married her for some damned reason, but fortunately I'm not dumb enough to just start driving, as I at least thought about what I'd do for money once I got there or something, since I'm still living at home I'm probably going to school or something and that's what's keeping me here.


Fix'd because humor fixes everything. Also to hopefully drive home the point that you don't know her, you Internet Know Her, which is about as useful as being in the several classes with a person and often speaking to them - you've got a pretty good idea of who they are, but there's still loads they could hide easily, even without intending to hide anything simply because it never comes up.

Now, Goku, it's not your problem, so for now I'm just going to ignore you completely. Her three options are Abort, give it up for Adoption, or Keep it.

By the "she thought he was a really nice guy but she was wrong" I'm going to assume she told him and he's pulled a Houdini. If she hasn't told him.. well, she's free to do whatever, but not telling him makes her a jerk.

Abort : Well, some people get along fine after having an abortion. Some people it sticks with as this oppressive guilt thing that stays there forever. I have no idea how Abortion's considered in that area as.. I have no idea where that area is (and don't really care) but in these here parts it's still regarded as a "shameful, private thing never to be discussed ever" for some fucking reason. While, sure, it's not something that needs to be shouted off a rooftop ("I HAVE HAD AN ABORTION!! WOO!!!) it shouldn't be regarded as something shameful or wrong. And if it is, fuck'em. Pro-lifers want the kid alive so bad, they can take it..which brings us to option 2

Adoption : Probably the "Best" option of the lot, it's still not that great. Still, she's in this predicament, might as well saddle the unwanted kid on someone who wants it.

Keep it : Because one mistake always fixes another.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby Yakk » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:48 am UTC

She appears to be willing to have sex with the douchebag in order to get affection.

She considers this affection more important than any love she has for you. That is her choice, and you should respect it.

At this point:
1> There is a reasonable chance she will self-abort. Over 1/3 of pregnancies don't make it past the first trimester. From what I know, this is usually a matter of error detection in reproduction.

2> Seeing a Doctor is very important. Do it. Now. No now. Now.

3> Getting advice from someone who is an expert in this problem is important. There are social workers who will help you. Avoid social workers that have a fixed agenda: abortion, adoption, getting her parents to raise it, raising it as a single parent, raising it with the douchebag, etc are all possible options.

4> Money matters. Raising a child is not cheap -- it costs roughly as much as buying a house.

5> Expressing a willingness to place yourself in any parental role makes you extremely liable, legally. We are talking 24 years of support liable.

6> It is highly likely that she can have a baby at a later time, if she decides she wants to have one later: especially if the metric is "unwanted baby from a douchebag". It is highly unlikely that she can unhave a baby. Only 5% of teenage mothers actually put their babies up for adoption if they give birth to them: ie, the claim that few teenage mothers who give birth actually follow through with plans to adopt out the baby seems possible.


Here is an interesting paper:
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/cu ... o=ED262139
it is on the outcomes of babies born to teen pregnancy.

(admittedly, the data is from birth in the mid/late 70s -- but it takes a while to generate outcome data from raising a child!)
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby Hammer » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:51 am UTC

OK, this is all very interesting advice ranging from thoughtful to dangerously flippant.

Here's some advice for your friend: This is not a job for a group of strangers on the internet to decide for you based on secondhand information from a "friend".

Tell her to talk to somebody she can trust who has any idea whatsoever of her personality, capabilities and actual circumstances. Especially if there is any danger of violence or coercion from the boyfriend.

[edit] And, yes, what Yakk said.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby btilly » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:54 am UTC

Solt wrote:
btilly wrote:The pro-choice position is as opposed to, say, mandatory abortions


what? I really don't think you meant to say that. The "pro-choice" position is in opposition to "no abortions, ever" aka "pro-life." It's giving mothers a 'choice' to have an abortion if they want. But it doesn't actually have anything to do with choice; choice is the slogan adopted by the supporters to point out why they support their side. The issue at heart is whether abortions should be legal.

I will limit myself to responding to this point only. I really did mean to say exactly what I said.

The pro-choice position is that a woman should have the right to make her own choices about her body. From the legal position taken in Roe vs Wade to the slogans used by activists you get a very consistent statement of the same thing. Women should have control of their own bodies.

In the USA the main challenge is to the right to choose to have abortion. So it is easy to confuse access to abortion with pro-choice. However in other countries the issue has arisen of whether other people (husbands, parents, the father-to-be or the state) have the right to force women to abort. In those situations the pro-choice position says that women have the right to not be forced into an abortion.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby mspickle » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:49 am UTC

Please remember this is not a young "teen". She is 20, which is young, but this is not an unusual age for someone to have a child and raise the child successfully.

Also, we don't really know too terribly much about the other guy- he may not be a complete douchebag. We have heard a skewed side, and we may not have all facts- I hope he is mature and man enough to do the right thing and be a good father. 20 is not too young and people learn. None of our parents were perfect, either, whether they were young or not when they had us.

Most people who have a baby as opposed to aborting do NOT look at that newborn and say, gee I wish I had aborted this baby. However, MANY people having abortions suffer from post-abortion syndrome- lots of depression, wondering- was this a girl or a boy? You will always think about the age the child would be at this time. What would the child have looked like? Sometimes these questions don't surface for months or years. Sometime along the line she could be pregnant again, this time intentionally, and in the back of her mind she will always think to herself, well if THIS one is so celebrated, what about the other one that was aborted...? This next pregnancy can really trigger a depression and grief for the baby that was lost. And I think that for many people the issue is not whether we women should be able to control our own bodies, etc. The fact is that now that there are two bodies, not one, to consider. Like it or not, our biology makes two (or more) bodies into one for about 9 months. Though one is completely dependant on the other, this body has his/her own uniqute DNA and identity nonetheless, and ending the life of this being WILL have psychological consequences.

Adoptions - there are a lot of kinds of adoptions nowadays. No longer do they have to be something where the natural parent never sees the child again. I know a friend who had a child at 17. She decided she was too inexperienced to be a mother. The father took little part in this matter. Friends of her family adopted the child. The child calls that family "mom" and "dad" while she calls my friend by her first name. She sees her often. It has worked out well for all people involved.

If money or violence is a problem, there are crisis pregnancy centers. They will help for FREE. Trained counselors and often doctors who care about both child and mother before AND after birth. I support the one in my area. It is a wonderful place and a haven for any pregnant woman in crisis, no matter her age or marital status or anything.

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Re: guys i need help

Postby '; DROP DATABASE;-- » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:25 am UTC

If I may go slightly off topic here:
++$_ wrote:Speaking of "classic signs..." Please, please don't fool yourself. If she is still doing things with "this guy," but she knows that this is going to be detrimental to your relationship (and that should be pretty damn clear by now), then your relationship is obviously no longer her priority.

Perhaps she keeps you around because Other Guy is a douche-bag and she can't really talk to him about Things, whereas you're a better friend. However, she hasn't been explicit about this, because that would be very painful for her.

If she really wants you, she needs to tell Other Guy to GTFO. And she needs to do that NOW. If she is not willing to do that, then either she does not want you enough, or Other Guy is holding her at gunpoint, which I doubt.

Make this clear.
I gotta agree with this guy. I know this is harsh but if she really considered you more than just a friend this other guy wouldn't even have entered the picture.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby Yakk » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:34 am UTC

mspickle wrote:Please remember this is not a young "teen". She is 20, which is young, but this is not an unusual age for someone to have a child and raise the child successfully.


Ah -- I saw the age of 17 mentionedin a post, and misunderstood. 20 does help somewhat. :) However, being in an adult pair bond relationship helps even more.

Most people who have a baby as opposed to aborting do NOT look at that newborn and say, gee I wish I had aborted this baby.


Horrid metric, but: postpartum depression is ridiculously common. 50% to 75% experience "the baby blues", 1 in 10 get a full-blown depressive episode, and roughly 1 to 3 in 1000 actually go bonkers (postpartum psychosis). This is believed to be due to the rapid change in hormones after birth (or, say, after an abortion).

Babies and Pregnancy are highly emotional issues.

Children are hard. Everyone of us are the product of at least 1 person who decided to push their way through this hard problem.

If money or violence is a problem, there are crisis pregnancy centers. They will help for FREE. Trained counselors and often doctors who care about both child and mother before AND after birth. I support the one in my area. It is a wonderful place and a haven for any pregnant woman in crisis, no matter her age or marital status or anything.


*nod* -- seeing an expert who can help is a good idea. :) I would advise against seeing someone who has, out of policy, banned any option from being considered.

...

And no, there is no need to kick other guy out. You should not seek to be any more than a friend: she made her choice, respect her choice that she wants to be with "douchebag" rather than you, even if she later decides to change her mind.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:57 am UTC

Hokay, um. This thread is kind of intense. I tl;dr'd the abortion debate part, cause really I don't give a damn what the other people on this board think of abortion, and neither should the OP or the girl. The important thing is what SHE thinks about it.
She needs to do a few things, and take some serious thinking time.
1. Get a doctor to confirm pregnancy, and do STD tests.
2. Be honest with both the men in her life about the outcome of that test.
if it is positive:
3. Decide, and this will take a bit, if having a child is something she is both ready for and aware of. People don't realize that when you have a child, and are personally responsible for that child, it becomes #1 priority in your life. Before sleep, before fun, before everything else, comes that child. For the next 18 years plus. This isn't bullshit. Raising a kid is a full time job and takes a lot of love and determination. And it is a thankless job, for the most part. People will look at a young mother with an unplanned child in a harsh light- that's just reality. She'd better be ready to deal with that.
As a result, thing #4 does come after thing #3.
4. Decide if she wants to continue her relationship with him, or the OP, or both (or neither).
Having sex with someone who isn't the person you love or want to be with doesn't make someone a bad person. Denying physical desires is difficult. Being 1000 miles away from the person you want to be with doesn't make them any less important, but it does make them less accessible, and if she was honest with you about this other guy, then she probably feels justified in what she has done. If you want things to be different, you have to tell her, man.


And if she's not pregnant, and does want to continue sleeping with him, tell that girl to get on more reliable birth control. Like the pill or the shot or an IUD. And use freakin' condoms!

That's just my two US cents. And the US dollar being at an all time low, it may not count for much, but there you have it.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby goku77 » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:28 am UTC

ok thanks for all the input, i haven't had a chance to show her this yet but i'll make sure she finds it. i imagine being online isn't a big priority for her right now.

"By the "she thought he was a really nice guy but she was wrong" I'm going to assume she told him and he's pulled a Houdini."
no, that's what she said a few weeks before this when i asked her about this guy. it's been very confusing. like every time we discuss the situation she'll say things like that and act like she's decided to dump him entirely, and then a few days pass and i find nothing has changed. so i really don't know what to think anymore. but that's not really the topic here.

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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby ++$_ » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:53 am UTC

goku77 wrote:no, that's what she said a few weeks before this when i asked her about this guy. it's been very confusing. like every time we discuss the situation she'll say things like that and act like she's decided to dump him entirely, and then a few days pass and i find nothing has changed. so i really don't know what to think anymore. but that's not really the topic here.
SAYING that she will dump him is not the same as actually DOING it. In fact, it counts for absolutely nothing.
You say that this is off-topic, but consider that if you want to move forward as a couple, you have to repair your relationship in more ways than just dealing with the issue of the pregnancy. The fact that there is another man coming into the picture, that you are unable to communicate clearly, that trust between you is breaking/has broken down, are all barriers to any kind of a happy ending. If you want one, you will have to deal with all of them, and not just the issue of the child.

MeauxPas wrote:If you want things to be different, you have to tell her, man.
Absolutely. This. And, what's more, she has to give you a solid answer, not equivocation. If the person I love told me that I needed to "shape up" in some way, I would agree to do so without hesitation, and I would follow through on that. If she does not do so, that is a Red Flag.

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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby parkaboy » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:01 am UTC

yeah that "nothing has changed" sets off alarm bells.

*breath* ok. i have some experience in the unplanned child area, both as the unplanned child and as someone who has given one up. Terminated.

As the child: my parents were 18 and 20 when i was born, my mom was still in high school. had she been 20, i doubt it would have made much of a difference. Despite having this talk time and time again to this day (i'm a few weeks short of 25) I still blame myself for all her missed opportunities. She's one of the most astute, intelligent people i know, and she should have gone to college, but there was me. My dad should have been in college a lot sooner than he was, but he had to work because there was me. They both, though divorced, had a ton of help raising me, but it was NOT easy for them by any means. I blame me. Me. Me. Me. So, as a child that could have been terminated, sometimes i think "its better if i hadnt been born. their lives would be so much better" but thats a bad habit i have; heaping guilt that isnt mine onto me anyway. The point: babies cause problems in life plans. LIFE causes problem in life plans. I have no doubt that some people can have a kid or two, stay in school, graduate and have a successful happy life, but it doesnt always work out like that.

As the "mom": i was 18 as well, still in high school. i did not tell my parents, my mom figured it out anyway. she didnt say anything til after it was all done with and we never spoke of it again, though she was supportive of my choice. the things that were pointed out - what would they look like? a boy or a girl? how old would they be now? - the questions and guilt, do stay with you, some longer than others. year by year, i become more ok with my choice because i know that, for me, it was the right thing to do. I was not an environment that was good for a growing child. I would not have been a stable mom. I was toxic. There are days i look back and wonder how i'm still alive and with all (or at least most) of my mental faculties.
IF she is healthy and can go through with this and handle an adoption, I highly suggest it. I didn't see that as an option for myself, but everyone is different, and it is really hard to know what will happen until you are face to face with that situation.

I do agree that she should be tested for STDs. as for you, tread carefully. She sounds like she's either being completely jerked around by this guy, or is completely jerking you around. possibly both. She has come to you for advice and a friendly ear, so don't withdraw but be cautious if she asks for more than that, but isnt willing to give anything herself.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:25 pm UTC

The thing that kind of worries me here is that it's impossible to tell if she's fucking with you, or if the other guy is fucking with her, and she is unable to get away from him due to his actions and behavior. This is something you should probably look into, man.
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Re: guys i need help (A friend's pregnancy)

Postby hestia » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:44 pm UTC

Look guys, I didn't mean to start a whole snafu debate about abortion. I used the term pro-life simply because that is the terminology I have always heard used. Obviously I will have to find a new term that is less offensive to people. I am not one of those people who likes to lecture on abortion. I just saw that the option of adoption wasn't mentioned and I particularly think of it because of my own personal feelings on the subject. I have to admit that this whole thing has me feeling very attacked. I think that anyone who read my full original post would see that I do respect choice. Whether I like it or not, abortion is legal and it is a person's individual choice to decide what that means, it is not my place to lecture on it, particularly to a confused and probably scared young woman who is in a difficult situation. Not only is this debate in this thread hurting me, someone who greatly respects the other side and is hurt that the other side doesn't seem to respect me, but the mother who has a difficult decision to make and doesn't need a bunch of armchair philosophers debating the morality of her decisions.
So can we please just stop.
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