A way around music piracy? (Now with a poll)

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

What is your stance on music piracy?

I download music illegally, and never buy it
9
13%
I download music illegally, and only buy it if I can't get it for free
8
12%
I download music illegally, but may buy it afterwards if I think it's good
18
26%
I don't download music illegally
7
10%
I think the proposal in the first post, or something similar, is a good idea
9
13%
I think it's a bad idea
10
14%
I'm not sure, or have no opinion on the matter
8
12%
 
Total votes: 69

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

A way around music piracy? (Now with a poll)

Postby Robin S » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:54 pm UTC

I'm sure this has been proposed before, but I'm interested to see what the main problems are with it, and whether it's feasible for it to be developed into something workable.

The main complaint raised by artists and record companies against music piracy is that it loses them money, right? Now, there are various possible approaches to the situation - the current one is to make it illegal to pirate music, which is never going to eradicate the problem.

What other ways could the artists and companies still make money from their music, while allowing people to share music for free, legally? Would it be possible, for example, to make money "solely" out of things like limited edition discs? Some of them could be autographed, and the rest could be shipped in large enough numbers to make a large amount of money, along with standard merchandise. Perhaps, by making them the only "official" way to get the song for the first month or so after release, sale levels similar to the current ones could be attained - a lot of people place stock in buying the single or album even when they know it's possible to download it for free, which would be helped along by the disc being limited edition etc. It would still be possible - and legal - to download the songs before that first month was up, but you might not see so many people doing it. After that, the song could be made freely downloadable on the artist's official site, but the limited edition discs would no longer be available.

Just an idea, and of course various details could be changed. What do people think?

Here is a thread detailing an alternative proposed solution to the piracy problem.
Last edited by Robin S on Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:56 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

|Erasmus|
Branson
Posts: 2643
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:26 pm UTC

Just so you know... bands make next to no money out of selling cd's. They would probably do better for themselves letting people download them off their website and having a few ads on it.

The record companies make the money off the cd's, and would not benefit from the artists selling directly to the public. I have commented before about the usefulness of them at all, but they do alot of work for the artists, getting them interviews, radio play, people to tour with, people to fund the tour.. and the band makes money off that stuff.

The plan you linked is not really that great, imo. I have precious little experience with vinyl, but if people are happy to download music now, and not buy a cd, and either rip it, or download it seperately for their mp3 player, they won't go and buy a cd/record with a coupon to do it legally.

The only way to solve the problem, really, is to find a way for the record companies to work without having to sell cd's. I personally believe that the problem has gone too far, and there is really no turning people back from their free music now.. not back to paying $20+ for a cd, at least.

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Robin S » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:45 pm UTC

I wasn't endorsing or otherwise commenting on the other suggestion, merely pointing out that it existed in case some people were interested.

What are the problems you see with my own suggestion?
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

|Erasmus|
Branson
Posts: 2643
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:51 pm UTC

Partly... the part about the artists not needing to sell cd's to make money anyway was directed at you seemingly wondering if them just selling limited edition stuff/merchandise was enough to get by on.


An actual plan of my own:

I don't see why they don't release singles as free downloads, and still sell the albums in the normal way. (seriously, who goes out and buys cd singles these days?)

I see -alot- of people who advocate downloading music as wanting to 'test drive' it first, and not waste money on albums they may not like. If you can download the singles off it, you can decide whether you like the band enough to go buy the full album on a nice high quality cd with some good artwork.

I like buying my cds. Mostly because alot of the mp3s you download are absolutely shocking quality, and I like having the covers/booklets that come with them... I have my share of downloaded music, but I am working on expanding my cd collection (I'm not made of money)

recurve boy
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:48 am UTC
Location: Sydney Australia
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby recurve boy » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:32 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:Just an idea, and of course various details could be changed. What do people think?

Here is a thread detailing an alternative proposed solution to the piracy problem.


Funny thread. Save the RIAA. Haha, if they want to make themselves obsolete, let them.

I'm not sure about letting people share music for free, but the making money thing has already been solved. It's called iTunes. Look at what Radiohead has done.

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Robin S » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:38 pm UTC

The thing about iTunes, though, is precisely that it doesn't eradicate people being forced to pay for music. Until people are able to do this legally, they're going to carry on doing it illegally, and they're going to complain about it being illegal. If, by contrast, there were official, legal, free downloads, they could avoid the recording quality problem that |Erasmus| mentioned. If it wouldn't make much difference to the artists anyway, that's fine, but since as |Erasmus| said we're stuck with the recording companies, it wouldn't be pointless.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

User avatar
PatrickRsGhost
Posts: 2278
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 5:43 pm UTC
Location: ZZ9PluralZAlpha
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby PatrickRsGhost » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:41 pm UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:I like buying my cds. Mostly because alot of the mp3s you download are absolutely shocking quality, and I like having the covers/booklets that come with them... I have my share of downloaded music, but I am working on expanding my cd collection (I'm not made of money)


I am in the process of doing this as well.

My mp3 player once consisted of mostly music I downloaded off the interwebz. I decided to convert to more "legal" methods of acquiring music because of two reasons:

1. If the hard drive of my player crashed and I lost all the songs, it will be a pain in the arse to re-download all the songs, especially if I got them from more than one source, and

2. If my player is lost or stolen, same thing.

A lot of the music I have downloaded has been a "spur of the moment." One day I might be thinking of a song I remember hearing, or I will hear a song I haven't heard in a while on the radio. I'll check my player to see if I have it. If I don't, then it's off to the Internet. There's one site I usually get my music from, but sometimes I can't find the song I'm looking for. There's another problem I run into with the site I use: if it's a popular song, like "Bohemian Rhapsody" by Queen, there will be hundreds of results, and sources, for the same song. The problem here is I'll listen to each one, and whichever one has the best sound quality, and the track's time length seems to be the most accurate, then I'll download it. The main problem here is if there are two or more results with the same information, months from now I'll have forgotten which one I downloaded.

That's the beauty of CDs. If I have to buy a new player, or my old one just crashes but is still useable, It'll only take minutes to re-upload all tracks to my computer (I delete them after uploading to my player to save hard drive space), and then copy them to the player.

The only CDs I have bought are those which have three or more songs that I recognize by the artist. If there's only one or two songs by the artist I know, then I'll download them. Why pay for an entire album just to get one song? And like Erasmus said as well, why buy a single CD? That's a waste of money.

Last weekend I took an inventory of my player. It wasn't easy. I have 669 songs, and about 11% of them came from the Internet. I need to look at the list and see what artists are still outstanding with three or more tracks, and see if I can't find a CD that has those tracks. Most of the CDs I have are all "Best of..." or "Greatest Hits" or words to that effect. That gives me a good chance of having a lot of the tracks by that one artist or group that I know.

Not all of my CDs were purchased from a store like Borders, FYE, or Wal-Mart. I bought a handful at a nearby flea market, and ordered several off of a site that sends me online surveys. The surveys award points, which I can use towards awards, like CDs. I have ordered I think about 7 or 8 CDs from them so far, and plan to order two or three more.
PRG

An important message for you:

010000100110010100100000011100110
111010101110010011001010010000001
110100011011110010000001100101011
000010111010000100000011110010110
111101110101011100100010000001100
010011000010110001101101111011011
1000101110

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Robin S » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:48 pm UTC

PatrickRsGhost wrote:I decided to convert to more "legal" methods of acquiring music because of two reasons:

1. If the hard drive of my player crashed and I lost all the songs, it will be a pain in the arse to re-download all the songs, especially if I got them from more than one source, and

2. If my player is lost or stolen, same thing.
Surely this is what backups are for? If you wanted, you could burn CDs with the songs you downloaded illegaly, making it just as difficult to lose them as if you had bought the CDs yourself.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

User avatar
space_raptor
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby space_raptor » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:55 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:The main complaint raised by artists and record companies against music piracy is that it loses them money, right? Now, there are various possible approaches to the situation - the current one is to make it illegal to pirate music, which is never going to eradicate the problem.

What other ways could the artists and companies still make money from their music, while allowing people to share music for free, legally?


It is not really proven that music piracy loses them money.

I don't think the limited edition disk is a good solution, although it might be a good sales idea for them to do, it wouldn't completely replace all music sales if downloading was legal.

A different solution, and the one that I'll wager we're going to see in the next five years, is online music stores. Buying music on CDs will become obsolete. Mp3 players will replace them just as they replaced cassette tapes. Most young people just buy the CD and rip it to their computer anyways, to me, that's an unnecessary step. In the age of broadband internet and online shopping, there's no reason to have a physical medium. They can sell high-quality mp3s with no manufacturing or distribution costs. More importantly, it will be easier for artists, if they so choose, to distribute their own music from their own website. The cost of music will be cheaper - still have to pay for the web site and for advertising, and the like, but hey - and the whole signing a record deal idea will become a thing of the past.

This will be bad for record companies, but they've been sucking off the consumer teat for long enough. If they were smart they'd get with the times.
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

|Erasmus|
Branson
Posts: 2643
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:11 pm UTC

That is making the mistaken assumption that there are people who don't want to have cd's... and that record companies don't do anything.

As much as record companies do nothing for the consumer, alot of bands would not have gotten where they are without their record companies, and removing cd sales is hanging the record company out to dry... no more artists having their record company cut them a deal to get them some radio airplay to allow the radio station to get a better known artist a little air time on the cheap as well, or getting them a gig supporting one of their leading acts on tour.

And I have already stated in this thread... I -like- buying cds. I have an mp3 player. It comes on train rides with me, but I listen to music on my stereo at home, and enjoy it much more. I also enjoying having the cd cover/booklet with lyrics and artwork, etc.

We've already seen online music stores, but people would rather download for free than pay for music. The issue is not that people want to download music rather than go to the shops for it. People do not want to spend money on something they have come to view as being free.

There is an entire generation out there now that is being brought up with the internet, with free music and video games and whatnot. They do not expect to pay for it, and you won't convince them to stop downloading for free and buy from an online store.

User avatar
ZLVT
Posts: 1448
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:56 pm UTC
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby ZLVT » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:23 pm UTC

I know some artists, who aren't in it for the money, put their stuff up on their site for free and ask you to buy the CD. I like the CD, it has all the cool stuffs, it's full quality, it's REAL, etc, so I'd still buy it, and thanks to the wonderful world of technology you can make professional looking Cds on the cheap now, so if they go to like $10-15, I'd rather buy it 'cos..why not? Most of the money goes tot he recording company anyway and well...fuck 'em. I suppport the artist, but the company, expecially when bitching about the fact that piracy losses it profits IT MIGHT HAVE HAD, can get stuffed, the artists will be able to find a smaller indie company and Ross Robinson can go hungry for a bit, I doubt he's all that needy anyway. It'll give him time to work on more music.

I'm not bitter, I'm just tired.
22/♂/hetero/atheist/★☭/Image

Originator of the DIY ASL tags

User avatar
space_raptor
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby space_raptor » Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:38 pm UTC

Certainly, there will still be a role for labels, with radio and promoting tours and everything else that comes along with the music business. But the CD business model -as the dominant model, anyways - will disappear. I'm sure you will be able to buy CDs for a long time. I'm not suggesting it instantly disappears. But, for example, Amazon.com is dramatically cheaper to buy CDs on than it is at the HMV. So, I buy most of my CDs online. Taking that to the next step, if online music stores are cheaper, well, that will be the motivating factor for people, your nostalgic preferences aside.

I do not agree that people won't spend money on something they could pirate for free. I don't agree that most people view music as being free. I think that the concept of buying and downloading music on the internet is not prevalent enough yet, but it will be someday.

The music business is changing. CDs won't be around forever, mark my words. It's just a matter of developing the technology to a point where enough people prefer buying music in digital form to CDs. ITunes and Ipods are just the beginning. Most new cars and after-market car stereos have auxiliary audio jacks people can plug their players into. Home stereos can generally do the same with the purchase of a cord or two. The Discman is dead, just like the Walkman before it, and other stereo equipment will follow.
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

User avatar
pkuky
Posts: 612
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:16 pm UTC
Location: jerusalem
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby pkuky » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:31 pm UTC

you wan't to destroy piracy? have you no idea of the consequences? am I the only one who remebers the flying spaghetty monster?
It rains on the enemy too!

User avatar
4=5
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:02 am UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby 4=5 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:04 pm UTC

the way I would like to see it be, is

100% free songs
money made off signed merchandise and tours
rating and review sights (like jayisgames.com) to sort out what is good

this is kinda how web comics work right now.

User avatar
Fossa
Posts: 1080
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:04 am UTC
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Fossa » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:59 pm UTC

I always liked the idea of releasing lower sound quality mp3s for free en mass while selling better quality versions via CDs and/or proprietary formats like iTunes uses so that the high quality files can't be easily shared.

If the lower quality versions are readily available:

1) A lot less effort will be put into developing and supporting piracy software/networks/communities since there will be less of a drive to pirate.
2) Artists will get a lot more exposure.
3) Most music fans who are willing to shell out $20 for a cd now will still pay to get the high quality file.

I don't think it would hurt profits for the RIAA much, certainly when you realize they could stop their expensive legal crusade against every American with ear drums (and some without. A laser printer at my school was recently sent a cease and desist order for downloading music and movies).

Millah
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:50 pm UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Millah » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:05 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:What are the problems you see with my own suggestion?

I don't think your solution really address the problem.

Robin S wrote:Would it be possible, for example, to make money "solely" out of things like limited edition discs?

While i think most people would be interested in having items such as limited editions and autographed items, i do not think people will be willing to pay the price.

Robin S wrote:Perhaps, by making them the only "official" way to get the song for the first month or so after release, sale levels similar to the current ones could be attained

I think you're forgetting there will still be the "un-official" way to get the songs. As soon as it is available for sale (sooner than that sometimes) it will be available on the "un-offical market".

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Robin S » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:15 pm UTC

Millah wrote:I don't think your solution really address the problem.
How so?

Robin S wrote:While i think most people would be interested in having items such as limited editions and autographed items, i do not think people will be willing to pay the price.
I am not suggesting that such items be of similar price to most of today's limited edition items. They would still technically be limited edition, in the sense that a limited number of them would be produced, but they would not be ridiculously priced; however, the motivation for them would still lie partly in the fact that a limited number of them would be produced. Even today, there are some items which are produced in the hundreds of thousands (or more) which are labelled "limited edition" because a limited number of them will be produced.

Robin S wrote:I think you're forgetting there will still be the "un-official" way to get the songs. As soon as it is available for sale (sooner than that sometimes) it will be available on the "un-offical market".
I'm not forgetting that at all. But I do think the fact that the song will be available for download legally a month later (or whatever period of time is deemed appropriate) may put many people off downloading illegally before then. I think most people pirate music, DVDs etc. just because they want to own them for free, rather than because they're overeager to own them as soon as they come out.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

Millah
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:50 pm UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Millah » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:32 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:I am not suggesting that such items be of similar price to most of today's limited edition items. They would still technically be limited edition, in the sense that a limited number of them would be produced, but they would not be ridiculously priced; however, the motivation for them would still lie partly in the fact that a limited number of them would be produced. Even today, there are some items which are produced in the hundreds of thousands (or more) which are labelled "limited edition" because a limited number of them will be produced.

That "Limited Edition" draw isn't really there if the number produced in in the millions. The record companies want to make as much money as possible. If the price is going to go way down, the number they are going to sell is going to go way up.

Robin S wrote:I'm not forgetting that at all. But I do think the fact that the song will be available for download legally a month later (or whatever period of time is deemed appropriate) may put many people off downloading illegally before then. I think most people pirate music, DVDs etc. just because they want to own them for free, rather than because they're overeager to own them as soon as they come out.
I think you're wrong. If i hear a new song on the radio that i like, when i go home i'm going to want to hear it again, now, not in a month. Also if i can get a cd quality version of the song for free, why would i ever pay itunes 99 cents for it? Never mind buying a whole cd at 15-20 dollars.

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Robin S » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:35 pm UTC

Millah wrote:That "Limited Edition" draw isn't really there if the number produced in in the millions. The record companies want to make as much money as possible. If the price is going to go way down, the number they are going to sell is going to go way up.
If there is any limit at all on the number being produced, some people will want to buy them even if there is an otherwise-identical version going for free. If the alternative is lower quality, still more so. And as people have said above, some people just like owning CDs.

I think you're wrong. If i hear a new song on the radio that i like, when i go home i'm going to want to hear it again, now, not in a month. Also if i can get a cd quality version of the song for free, why would i ever pay itunes .99 cents for it? Never mind buying a whole cd at 15-20 dollars.
You may feel that way, but if that were the case for everyone then no-one at all would buy CDs, and the recording companies would already all be bankrupt.

I fail to see how the situation I've suggested is any worse than the one we've got at the moment.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

Millah
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:50 pm UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Millah » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:49 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:I fail to see how the situation I've suggested is any worse than the one we've got at the moment.

Your solution seems to be just slap "Limited Edition" on the CDs, and then a month later offer them for free online while offering a non limited edition in the stores, presumably for less than the "Limited Edition".

Am i not understanding? I don't see how this would help them. The "Limited Edition" version is going to cost more to make, and if they're not going to sell it for a high price, they're going to make millions of them to make a profit, so it won't have any collectible value. Then a month later, they pull the "Limited Edtion" cds that didn't sell from the shelves and replace them with a normal cheaper CD. If faced with a choice buy the cheap CD or legally download it for free. I think the average person would just download it.

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Robin S » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:59 pm UTC

I would envisage a significant fraction of the money from CDs being made in that first month. I think the extra cost to the company of printing "limited edition" on the album cover, or whatever, would be negligible. Some people will buy them just for the same reason that people buy physical CDs today; meanwhile, anything which is only available for a limited period of time has some extra value even if it's produced in fairly large numbers.
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

User avatar
space_raptor
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby space_raptor » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:19 pm UTC

Some people will, I'm sure, buy them. Most people will check the price of the download vs. the price of the CD and hit up the one that's cheap and apparently now legal. Money talks, as they say.
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

Robin S
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:02 pm UTC
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Robin S » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:01 pm UTC

If that proved to be a problem, perhaps they could have a quota system where free downloads are only released after n CDs have been sold?
This is a placeholder until I think of something more creative to put here.

|Erasmus|
Branson
Posts: 2643
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:23 pm UTC

Fossa wrote:I always liked the idea of releasing lower sound quality mp3s for free en mass while selling better quality versions via CDs and/or proprietary formats like iTunes uses so that the high quality files can't be easily shared.

If the lower quality versions are readily available:

1) A lot less effort will be put into developing and supporting piracy software/networks/communities since there will be less of a drive to pirate.
2) Artists will get a lot more exposure.
3) Most music fans who are willing to shell out $20 for a cd now will still pay to get the high quality file.

I don't think it would hurt profits for the RIAA much, certainly when you realize they could stop their expensive legal crusade against every American with ear drums (and some without. A laser printer at my school was recently sent a cease and desist order for downloading music and movies).


There is not really much wrong with that... THE RIAA is under the mistaken assumption that people will back away from the free music they are getting now and pay for exactly the same service. This is untrue.

I still stand by what I said before. Let's face it. The majority of people downloading music are either test driving it to see whether an album is in fact worth buying, or they don't want the whole album, and only song x they heard on the radio.

Provide the singles that artists released in 128-bit mp3 format on their website, for free, with some ads. The artist makes money, the fans get free music. Record sales do not noticably drop, because everyone who wants the cd/high quality format/entire album will be out there buying it.


space_raptor wrote:Some people will, I'm sure, buy them. Most people will check the price of the download vs. the price of the CD and hit up the one that's cheap and apparently now legal. Money talks, as they say.


and nothing is as cheap as free.

It's just not really seen as 'illegal' by people anymore. It's like jaywalking or something (which I did actually see someone get fined for once)... people know it's wrong, but people don't really care, and are starting to view the law as silly.

User avatar
space_raptor
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby space_raptor » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:32 pm UTC

I'm not convinced that's true. When I was in high school I downloaded lots of music, now I almost never do, because I have matured, and I can see why it's wrong. Plus I can afford to buy more music now. I think fans want to support the bands they like, and won't mind spending money on them if they can do it without feeling ripped off.
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

recurve boy
Posts: 353
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:48 am UTC
Location: Sydney Australia
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby recurve boy » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:40 pm UTC

Robin S wrote:The thing about iTunes, though, is precisely that it doesn't eradicate people being forced to pay for music. Until people are able to do this legally, they're going to carry on doing it illegally, and they're going to complain about it being illegal. If, by contrast, there were official, legal, free downloads, they could avoid the recording quality problem that |Erasmus| mentioned. If it wouldn't make much difference to the artists anyway, that's fine, but since as |Erasmus| said we're stuck with the recording companies, it wouldn't be pointless.


You make it sound like people paying for music is a problem. It's the bands work, they dictate what to do with it. Not you.

iTunes really is the solution to piracy. It allows bands to do their own distribution and be profitable actually selling their music. With almost all the profit going to the band, hopefully they will lower prices and then why pirate when you can get it legally for cheap? The problem that needs fixing here is allowing bands to be profitable, so that they continue to make music, not to "solve" piracy. There's no solving it. Some people will always be cheap bastards. Especially kids with no pocket money. But if the bands are profitable even with piracy going on, then they will not push the issue.

Some of the problems here are really funny though it's like "Oh me yarm, it's hard to ensure a quality encode on my pirated music and I can't keep track of all my pirating". LOL. So buy the CD or get a DRM free download from iTunes or Amazon. What a bunch of non-issues.

EDIT: And to quote myself
I'm not sure about letting people share music for free
Maybe there is an equitable way to make sharing legal. I don't know. It's certainly not a problem that needs fixing.

User avatar
Spoffin
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:51 am UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Spoffin » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:47 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:Just so you know... bands make next to no money out of selling cd's. They would probably do better for themselves letting people download them off their website and having a few ads on it.

The record companies make the money off the cd's, and would not benefit from the artists selling directly to the public. I have commented before about the usefulness of them at all, but they do alot of work for the artists, getting them interviews, radio play, people to tour with, people to fund the tour.. and the band makes money off that stuff.

The plan you linked is not really that great, imo. I have precious little experience with vinyl, but if people are happy to download music now, and not buy a cd, and either rip it, or download it seperately for their mp3 player, they won't go and buy a cd/record with a coupon to do it legally.

The only way to solve the problem, really, is to find a way for the record companies to work without having to sell cd's. I personally believe that the problem has gone too far, and there is really no turning people back from their free music now.. not back to paying $20+ for a cd, at least.

"Fifty percent of the human race is middle men, and they don't take kindly to being eliminated."
The thing to remember about Spoffin is that he's playing by rules no one else understands

User avatar
steewi
Posts: 873
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:38 am UTC
Location: Tropical Nowhere

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby steewi » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:05 am UTC

I'm going to weigh in lightly on the not-piracy side of things.

My objection to wholesale downloading of music (and TV shows, movies and other media) is ethical rather than financial. The notion of copyright stems from the idea of intellectual property. Piracy doesn't take music and pretend it's someone else's work, but it does diminish the control of the work from the perspective of the artist. Before recording music was popular, you had to go to see an artist to appreciate their work, or learn to play it yourself. The artist can see the popularity of their work, etc. From file-shared music it is hard to gauge downloads, and there is no control over quality. It amounts to theft, albeit theft of a not particularly damaging sort. It is true that the artist doesn't lose money/fame by your downloading of the song, and the lost potential financial benefit is small, but you are still taking something that you are not supposed to take.

There are many arguments against what I've just written. I don't have replies to most of them, so I can't help you there. I just don't feel right with fileshare piracy, especially given that I may publish some of my own work some day. I don't want people copying and passing around my work like that, so I won't do it to them.

On a side note: many bands gain benefits from recording companies other than financial gain - marketing, organising gigs, professional production and recording, etc. They might not be useful to all bands/artists, and the record companies are hardly ethical themselves half the time, but the benefits are there.

Dark Ragnarok
Posts: 1406
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 9:12 pm UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Dark Ragnarok » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:26 am UTC

As a DJ who thinks the internet is God's musical gift to man, I want to seriously create or support a way to make music as free or inexpensive as possible, yet giving the artist at least the money they need to keep creating without a problem. Too much money corrupts artists in the long run I feel. So I'm not sure how to balance it yet, but I'm striving to make music free if there's a way.

So far all my mixes are free. And I would like to make my music free. My reward is making people happy when they hear my music and moving them. I really don't want to price that. However, my dads makes a point...

"Things that are for free have no value, and people take it for granted." More or less what he said. He commented that things with a price give things value.

I'm not planning to live off DJing, but I take it so effing seriously, I may need to.

Marquee Moon
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:13 am UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Marquee Moon » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:14 am UTC

I think providing people with a quick and easy way of donating to artists would be very helpful. So when someone illegally downloads an album and they really like what they hear, they can quickly go to the artists site and say thanks with a donation. Of course, someone could just do this now by purchasing a CD, but then only around 10-20% of your money is actually going to the artist. With the donation thing, you can genuinely market it as a way of supporting artists, which I think people will really respond to if you market it right. You also don't have to worry much about providing the download yourself, you could just upload it as a torrent and include a link to the donating place (of course, you'd probably want to provide your own downloader pays download just to get as much money as possible). You'd have to talk to the torrent site operator about encouraging donations and stuff like that, but those are just little details.



Dark Ragnarok wrote:So far all my mixes are free. And I would like to make my music free. My reward is making people happy when they hear my music and moving them. I really don't want to price that.


I'm sure many of your listeners would be willing to make donations... well assuming you're any good. :wink:

User avatar
Rippy
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:27 pm UTC
Location: Ontario, Can o' Duh

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Rippy » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:58 am UTC

One of the problems, I find, is that a lot of the downloading taking place IS actually stealing. Most teenagers I know download their music with no intention of giving any money to the artist, because why should they do that when they can get the music for free?

That's why I'm sort of on the fence about this issue: it's basically an honour system. The people who would use it properly aren't the problem, it's managing the morally questionable general population. And that's why, if you forget your wallet while at the grocery store, you can't promise to pay the next time you're in: because, while you surely would, the jackass behind you would say the same thing and make off with free groceries.

|Erasmus|
Branson
Posts: 2643
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:53 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby |Erasmus| » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:46 am UTC

Spoffin wins the thread.

Seriously. The bands are not worried about music piracy, because it doesn't really lose them any money.

Donating money or the artists selling music online is not going to make people stop pirating music. People already can use the itunes shop, but don't.

The only way to solve music piracy, is to distribute music for free -regardless- of whether it's online or not. The record companies will not allow that, thus we are stuck with piracy... Unless you can come up with a way for the record company to make money without their artists selling cds, music will cost money, and people will pirate rather than pay for it.

Those are the facts that you cannot change... people will not suddenly stop and start paying for music. Record Companies will not suddenly stop and let you have all your music for free.

Unless you can find a way to get either party to do that, you have music piracy from alot of people.

timt
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:48 am UTC
Location: Kentucky, USA

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby timt » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:04 am UTC

Dark Ragnarok wrote:
"Things that are for free have no value, and people take it for granted." More or less what he said. He commented that things with a price give things value.



I've also found this. It's like using cheats in games, as soon as you do it becomes too easy and you quickly loose interest. I think what i would do if i was small producing artist is to host my tracks on my own site (seems a bit more personal than myspace) and add paypal donation links of set values eg $2, $5 next to the sets/tracks/albums specifying if you enjoy them you can donate. You wouldn't make much but if your music is enjoyable and you advertise it on a number of forums and other medians you should atleast be able to cover hosting costs (which are dirt cheap now anyway) and some living expenses.

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby The Reaper » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:19 am UTC

Dark Ragnarok wrote:As a DJ who thinks the internet is God's musical gift to man, I want to seriously create or support a way to make music as free or inexpensive as possible, yet giving the artist at least the money they need to keep creating without a problem. Too much money corrupts artists in the long run I feel. So I'm not sure how to balance it yet, but I'm striving to make music free if there's a way.

So far all my mixes are free. And I would like to make my music free. My reward is making people happy when they hear my music and moving them. I really don't want to price that. However, my dads makes a point...

"Things that are for free have no value, and people take it for granted." More or less what he said. He commented that things with a price give things value.

I'm not planning to live off DJing, but I take it so effing seriously, I may need to.

I like your mixes <3. I'd buy them.

Too much money seems to be highly correlated with rockstars ODing on drugs. :\ It may not be causation, but that has yet to be proven.

Things with value should give things price. The fact that things with price give things value is alot of what's wrong with the [edit] society [/edit] today.

User avatar
segmentation fault
Posts: 1770
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:10 pm UTC
Location: Nu Jersey
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby segmentation fault » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:24 pm UTC

embed an advertisement in each free song?
people are like LDL cholesterol for the internet

Millah
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:50 pm UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Millah » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:45 pm UTC

oh god that would be awful

Ironmon1
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:47 am UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Ironmon1 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:37 pm UTC

The problem here is exactly as stated above: middlemen. The RIAA and MPAA claim Billions or Trillions in losses a year, but between their "studies" that show music piracy is the devil, and the ones I've heard of that show that those who download are more likely to buy in some form, I trust the latter, because I work that way. The internet is changing the way music is distributed. 1$ per song? sounds great, until you realize that
0) you have to install icrap on your otherwise untainted windows computer.
1) you need to use Ipod to play icrap music
2) that's 128kbps music on icrap...radio quality
When I can pay to DL lossless, DRM-free music, I will no longer fly the Jolly Roger (except on pirate day).
DarkFortuneKookie wrote:Why do Make-up commercials exist?

User avatar
PatrickRsGhost
Posts: 2278
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 5:43 pm UTC
Location: ZZ9PluralZAlpha
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby PatrickRsGhost » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:11 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:embed an advertisement in each free song?


Don't some artists already do that? Drop brand names in their lyrics? Several (c)rap artists have been known to do that.

And I agree with something said earlier...a lot of people who would download free music will end up buying the album later on. I have done that with 90% of my music collection. I have also replaced the free songs with the more legally-obtained versions, mainly because there's a lower risk of my player acting up due to some fault with the music files. I've had it freeze up on me in the past whenever I'd turn it on if I had shut it down in the middle of a song, or when it goes to another song, it locks up. Nowadays it happens very rarely, if ever.
PRG

An important message for you:

010000100110010100100000011100110
111010101110010011001010010000001
110100011011110010000001100101011
000010111010000100000011110010110
111101110101011100100010000001100
010011000010110001101101111011011
1000101110

User avatar
segmentation fault
Posts: 1770
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:10 pm UTC
Location: Nu Jersey
Contact:

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby segmentation fault » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:58 pm UTC

PatrickRsGhost wrote:Don't some artists already do that? Drop brand names in their lyrics? Several (c)rap artists have been known to do that.


not sure. it was a bit of a joke response referring to free service websites (such as google) who make massive money off adverts.
people are like LDL cholesterol for the internet

Marquee Moon
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:13 am UTC

Re: A way around music piracy?

Postby Marquee Moon » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:12 am UTC

|Erasmus| wrote:Spoffin wins the thread.

Seriously. The bands are not worried about music piracy, because it doesn't really lose them any money.

Donating money or the artists selling music online is not going to make people stop pirating music. People already can use the itunes shop, but don't.


Ironmon1 pointed out some of the problems with Itunes and I'm sure Apple takes a healthy profit from download sales. Cut out their take and prices can be lowered and artists get more money. Middlemen as Ironmon1 said.

The only way to solve music piracy, is to distribute music for free -regardless- of whether it's online or not. The record companies will not allow that, thus we are stuck with piracy... Unless you can come up with a way for the record company to make money without their artists selling cds, music will cost money, and people will pirate rather than pay for it.


Those are the facts that you cannot change... people will not suddenly stop and start paying for music. Record Companies will not suddenly stop and let you have all your music for free.

Unless you can find a way to get either party to do that, you have music piracy from alot of people.



What's more important, artists getting paid or people not downloading music illegally? The other solutions here get more money to the artists than their currently getting. That's why they're good. If the artists are getting paid well, does it really matter if someone somewhere is not paying for their music? And considering there's no practical solution to stopping illegal downloads, why not just focus on getting money to artists for now?

I don't see why you look it as an all or nothing situation. People aren't separated into those who don't care about artists and those who buy CDs; I'm sure there's a big middle group that'll be willing to pay for music, just at the right price. And for them paying $20 to get $1-2 to the artist isn't a good enough deal. Providing cheaper downloads by cutting out the middlemen and just letting people give money to artists is going to capture a lot of those people. And even if we just assume those people don't exist, if everyone who pays $20 for their CDs instead just donates that much to the artists, they'll get a whole lot more money.

(Record companies obviously do some good things like advertising and radio and stuff like that. Providing artists with another means of income will force them to compete and offer a bigger chunk of CD sales (or maybe they'll work similar to how they do now, but with downloads instead of CDs))


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests